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Ya I gotta try and get some sleep So I'll just leave off with this.
I like the Full BAB.
I Like the expanded 4th lvl spells but I am not adverse to getting 6th lvl.
I'm perfectly fine with the Magus SL but I would be pretty happy if the BR got its own SL.
To me this is a Combative Frontliner with access to Magical Reinforcement, both Buffing and Side Damage. While you seem to want a Caster with side Melee damage, and this is not what I want.
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no no, i agree on all points but the last; i want a frontline combatant with at least decent blasting capability for the cases when he cant ragechargesmash. which currently he is unable to do with any degree of effectiveness due to how slowly/weak his casting side is.
i dont want to see a less-capable arcane paladin, i want to see something unique.
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no no, i agree on all points but the last; i want a frontline combatant with at least decent blasting capability for the cases when he cant ragechargesmash. which currently he is unable to do with any degree of effectiveness due to how slowly/weak his casting side is.
i dont want to see a less-capable arcane paladin, i want to see something unique.
Which I am ok with as long as A. It doesn't result in the class coming off as too good or OP and B. It doesn't detract from the physical combative side.
Which I am ok with as long as A. It doesn't result in the class coming off as too good or OP and B. It doesn't detract from the physical combative side.no no, i agree on all points but the last; i want a frontline combatant with at least decent blasting capability for the cases when he cant ragechargesmash. which currently he is unable to do with any degree of effectiveness due to how slowly/weak his casting side is.
i dont want to see a less-capable arcane paladin, i want to see something unique.
I completely agree, i would just like offensive spells to be at least a decent choice (unlike what is the case now).
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I completely agree, i would just like offensive spells to be at least a decent choice (unlike what is the case now).Which I am ok with as long as A. It doesn't result in the class coming off as too good or OP and B. It doesn't detract from the physical combative side.no no, i agree on all points but the last; i want a frontline combatant with at least decent blasting capability for the cases when he cant ragechargesmash. which currently he is unable to do with any degree of effectiveness due to how slowly/weak his casting side is.
i dont want to see a less-capable arcane paladin, i want to see something unique.
True, perhaps I got too defensive too fast but something to keep them a staple at later levels would be nice.
no worries, i come off as rather caustic the longer i go, more since i rush to get the post posted, rather than thinking out how to say it more clearly. no offence meant, i assure you.
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no worries, i come off as rather caustic the longer i go, more since i rush to get the post posted, rather than thinking out how to say it more clearly. no offence meant, i assure you.
No worries :3 after ahwile the posts started rapid firing, luckily we kept it civil. I hope I didn't come of as caustic or offending either.
nah, i didnt take any offence, and i do get that the BR getting the whole pie for casting and melee would be a bad idea.
if we go with spending rage for metamagics, maybe have an "arcana" of sorts for the different bloodlines that affects their shtick--you could MM things like silent/still, quicken, and intensify as usual, but each bloodline could have unique ones they grant to your available list of rage-exchangables? like undead bloodline could add threnodic or thanatopic to the list, or celestial adds merciful spell, arcane adds piercing spell, etc.
?
anyway, i'm off for the evening--got a fairly busy day tomorrow!
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if we go with spending rage for metamagics, maybe have an "arcana" of sorts for the different bloodlines that affects their shtick--you could MM things like silent/still, quicken, and intensify as usual, but each bloodline could have unique ones they grant to your available list of rage-exchangables? like undead bloodline could add threnodic or thanatopic to the list, or celestial adds merciful spell, arcane adds piercing spell, etc.
?
anyway, i'm off for the evening--got a fairly busy day tomorrow!
Yeah that looks viable, and makes sense, the bloodline affecting your spells.
Gnight :3 (stupid iPhone with Internet next to me won't let me go to sleep)
I really don't want this to be class that focus on being a caster anymore than the Paladin or Ranger.But paladins really have a strong option for their spellcasting.
First charisma builds into their other magical abilities -- lay on hands (channel energy by extension) and their save throw increasing ability as well as offensive ability in smite.
Plus their spells are typically unoffensive by default.
Face it -- the paladin is the Jedi Knight to the Bloodrager's Sith warrior.
The paladin can choose to go high charisma and will be well rewarded for doing so even if it isn't 100% optimal. He has plenty of uses for that charisma and he'll still be an even contributor as a healer/tankish character, with solid self and party healing, some decent back up spells and hardly (if limited) attack options.
Rangers are odd ball across the board -- they have prerequisite free feats and their spells are also divine and utility in nature. They aren't one off druids they are rangers.
This guy isn't either of those things -- he's a magic based battler. It says so in his description. His spell list is primarily offensive.
And again -- we aren't asking for anything from how you can play him to be taken away -- we are asking for the option to be able to focus on the magic side too, if the player wants to invest in it.
You don't want to focus charisma? Find you have a few more buffs per day, and your back up magic missile hurts a bit more than 'normal'.
But if you do want to focus on the magical element at a bit of expense of your martial ability you now don't feel like a chump for taking the damage dealing spells, as they can actually be an effective choice.
And just because it is now a decent option if you want to use it, you aren't really losing anything if you do not want to use it.
This. This in all it's glory. +1
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I'm saying that for him in a rage casting a lightning bolt shouldn't be a bad choice.
Self buffing is too common -- lets have a big bad murder machine that uses magic instead of simply swinging in melee like everyone else.
Not that he can't do that too, but lets have something a little more than just another self-buffing martial machine.
It isn't a bad choice, depending on the circumstance. Is it the optimal choice? No.
Do I want a class that can fight as well as a Barbarian AND cast as well as a sorcerer? No.
I'm saying that for him in a rage casting a lightning bolt shouldn't be a bad choice.
Self buffing is too common -- lets have a big bad murder machine that uses magic instead of simply swinging in melee like everyone else.
Not that he can't do that too, but lets have something a little more than just another self-buffing martial machine.
It isn't a bad choice, depending on the circumstance. Is it the optimal choice? No.
Do I want a class that can fight as well as a Barbarian AND cast as well as a sorcerer? No.
have spellcasting buffs (+1 dc/4 levels starting at 4th (max +5), +1 damage/2 CL (max +10 with magical knack and an orange iounstone, if he gets the ranger/paladin cl hit. max +8 otherwise) for the BR that only applies to damaging spells and only while bloodraging--bam, done. good at blasting, as good at buffing as one would be with hilariously late 4th level magus spells, and mediocre at everything else (illusion divination abjuration etc etc).
heck, if you wanna reign it in some, make him spend rage rounds = the spell level he's casting with the buff ability.
or give him an auto-intensify spell (at the cost of rage rounds, as above) at 13th level to emulate getting beefier spells like a big boy caster.
half asleep here so pardon any format stuff.
I'm saying that for him in a rage casting a lightning bolt shouldn't be a bad choice.
Self buffing is too common -- lets have a big bad murder machine that uses magic instead of simply swinging in melee like everyone else.
Not that he can't do that too, but lets have something a little more than just another self-buffing martial machine.
It isn't a bad choice, depending on the circumstance. Is it the optimal choice? No.
Do I want a class that can fight as well as a Barbarian AND cast as well as a sorcerer? No.
How on earth would a 4-level caster ever be "as good" as a Sorcerer?
Overall I like the Bloodrager.
I have a few gripes with the class. One is a lack of a good will save, the paladin has it, so why not the bloodrager? Another is that the bloodrager cannot cast spells outside of rage. It seems strange that he has to be really angry to do something that the sorcerer has to be at peace to do. I would allow it to cast spells both in- and out og rage, it's spell list is rather limited anyway.
I also think that it would suit the class to have it's own spell list.
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How on earth would a 4-level caster ever be "as good" as a Sorcerer?I'm saying that for him in a rage casting a lightning bolt shouldn't be a bad choice.
Self buffing is too common -- lets have a big bad murder machine that uses magic instead of simply swinging in melee like everyone else.
Not that he can't do that too, but lets have something a little more than just another self-buffing martial machine.
It isn't a bad choice, depending on the circumstance. Is it the optimal choice? No.
Do I want a class that can fight as well as a Barbarian AND cast as well as a sorcerer? No.
If you are arguing that the spells should do enhanced damage, that would be more.
Enhanced being "more".
For a 4 level caster, spells should be supplementary, not primary. That the fireball "only" does fireball level damage isn't a problem.
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Overall I like the Bloodrager.
I have a few gripes with the class. One is a lack of a good will save, the paladin has it, so why not the bloodrager? Another is that the bloodrager cannot cast spells outside of rage. It seems strange that he has to be really angry to do something that the sorcerer has to be at peace to do. I would allow it to cast spells both in- and out og rage, it's spell list is rather limited anyway.
I also think that it would suit the class to have it's own spell list.
I disagree with the will save. It is still basically a barbarian. If any class isn't going to get a good will save, it is the Barbarian.
How on earth would a 4-level caster ever be "as good" as a Sorcerer?I'm saying that for him in a rage casting a lightning bolt shouldn't be a bad choice.
Self buffing is too common -- lets have a big bad murder machine that uses magic instead of simply swinging in melee like everyone else.
Not that he can't do that too, but lets have something a little more than just another self-buffing martial machine.
It isn't a bad choice, depending on the circumstance. Is it the optimal choice? No.
Do I want a class that can fight as well as a Barbarian AND cast as well as a sorcerer? No.
If you are arguing that the spells should do enhanced damage, that would be more.
Enhanced being "more".
For a 4 level caster, spells should be supplementary, not primary. That the fireball "only" does fireball level damage isn't a problem.
Fair enough. Though I'll point out I'm in the camp for letting the class have Spellstrike, not enhanced spell damage.
We already have a ton of "buff first, swing second" classes. We really need more hybrid casters.
I hope there will ba archtypes that give up some of the staying power things to get better casting in different ways. But i think the basic bloodrager is fine. Some of the bloodlines may need a tweek.
But for general casting improvement i think that making feat that resemble the magus arcanas that dosent have AP cost is a good idea.
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Overall I like the Bloodrager.
I have a few gripes with the class. One is a lack of a good will save, the paladin has it, so why not the bloodrager? Another is that the bloodrager cannot cast spells outside of rage. It seems strange that he has to be really angry to do something that the sorcerer has to be at peace to do. I would allow it to cast spells both in- and out og rage, it's spell list is rather limited anyway.
I also think that it would suit the class to have it's own spell list.
They erattad that, the Bloodrager CAN cast outside of raging.
Overall I like the Bloodrager.
I have a few gripes with the class. One is a lack of a good will save, the paladin has it, so why not the bloodrager? Another is that the bloodrager cannot cast spells outside of rage. It seems strange that he has to be really angry to do something that the sorcerer has to be at peace to do. I would allow it to cast spells both in- and out og rage, it's spell list is rather limited anyway.
I also think that it would suit the class to have it's own spell list.
the BR can cast outside of bloodrage, this has been brought up throughout this and many other threads.
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I disagree with the will save. It is still basically a barbarian. If any class isn't going to get a good will save, it is the Barbarian.Overall I like the Bloodrager.
I have a few gripes with the class. One is a lack of a good will save, the paladin has it, so why not the bloodrager? Another is that the bloodrager cannot cast spells outside of rage. It seems strange that he has to be really angry to do something that the sorcerer has to be at peace to do. I would allow it to cast spells both in- and out og rage, it's spell list is rather limited anyway.
I also think that it would suit the class to have it's own spell list.
It is still a caster, so I believe it should have a Good Will save. Is there any other caster out there that doesn't have a Good Will save?
It is still a caster, so I believe it should have a Good Will save. Is there any other caster out there that doesn't have a Good Will save?I disagree with the will save. It is still basically a barbarian. If any class isn't going to get a good will save, it is the Barbarian.Overall I like the Bloodrager.
I have a few gripes with the class. One is a lack of a good will save, the paladin has it, so why not the bloodrager? Another is that the bloodrager cannot cast spells outside of rage. It seems strange that he has to be really angry to do something that the sorcerer has to be at peace to do. I would allow it to cast spells both in- and out og rage, it's spell list is rather limited anyway.
I also think that it would suit the class to have it's own spell list.
Ranger. Alchemist(?).
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Ranger. Alchemist(?).It is still a caster, so I believe it should have a Good Will save. Is there any other caster out there that doesn't have a Good Will save?I disagree with the will save. It is still basically a barbarian. If any class isn't going to get a good will save, it is the Barbarian.Overall I like the Bloodrager.
I have a few gripes with the class. One is a lack of a good will save, the paladin has it, so why not the bloodrager? Another is that the bloodrager cannot cast spells outside of rage. It seems strange that he has to be really angry to do something that the sorcerer has to be at peace to do. I would allow it to cast spells both in- and out og rage, it's spell list is rather limited anyway.
I also think that it would suit the class to have it's own spell list.
Ah true, ranger gets good Ref. And I find it extremely odd that Alchemist, being more of a caster than either ranger or BR, doesn't have a good Will Save. Weird.
I'm saying that for him in a rage casting a lightning bolt shouldn't be a bad choice.
Self buffing is too common -- lets have a big bad murder machine that uses magic instead of simply swinging in melee like everyone else.
Not that he can't do that too, but lets have something a little more than just another self-buffing martial machine.
It isn't a bad choice, depending on the circumstance. Is it the optimal choice? No.
Do I want a class that can fight as well as a Barbarian AND cast as well as a sorcerer? No.
I don't think anyone is asking for it to be able to do both at the same time.
What is being asked is that they have the capacity to build one way or the other.
At the moment they're fairly decent at being a barbarian.
However they're very bad at trying to be a sorcerer.
What some of us are asking is the ability to build towards either being a fairly decent barbarian with a side of sorcerer or a fairly decent sorcerer with a side of barbarian. Asking for expanded options won't break the class. The only way that can happen is if it becomes possible to build them into an awesome melee class and an awesome blaster. And truth be told that would be hard even with the thoughts proposed here simply because the gear and feat requirements involved to make both work well.
They need a way to get +2 DC on their spell DCs, to give them parity with six level characters, otherwise their offensive spells are going to be, is some cases, underwhelming. The best way I can think of to do this is to steal the defunct Arcanist's blood focus mechanic, and power it with a grit-like mechanic based on Charisma. Because the other thing this class needs is a reason to focus on Charisma.
Ditching uncanny dodge, fast movement, and DR should create plenty of design space for the boost mechanic, which could also provide quickened effects. Also, maybe some kind of mechanic to spend points on a full round action to boost area effect damage spells.
And maybe a SLA that deals half force damage, half energy damage of choice, scaling reasonably to their level.
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Maybe an archetype for the bloodragers who want to be blaster? As it stands right now, not much to complain about the class, magus spells have enough spells to buff the bloodrager with haste, true strike, fly, vanish etc...
I would say tho, some regular sorcerer bloodline are worthy of consideration for any melee classes, the orc bloodline from Sorcerer is frankly very strong and could nearly be used as is for a Bloodrager maybe tweaking it a little bit.
So people are wanting a melee sorcerer? I really don't think the focus of this class is to be a blaster. This is a barbarian with a bit of magic. Just like the paladin is a fighter with a bit of divine magic.
The reason barbarians have the 2 uncanny dodges and damage reduction is because of their lack of heavy armor and the AC penalty they are hit with when raging. Take away those from the bloodrager, and what will be his defensive compensation?
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The reason barbarians have the 2 uncanny dodges and damage reduction is because of their lack of heavy armor and the AC penalty they are hit with when raging. Take away those from the bloodrager, and what will be his defensive compensation?
Shield, blur, mirror image, cloak of winds...
I really don't want this to be class that focus on being a caster anymore than the Paladin or Ranger.But paladins really have a strong option for their spellcasting.
First charisma builds into their other magical abilities -- lay on hands (channel energy by extension) and their save throw increasing ability as well as offensive ability in smite.
Plus their spells are typically unoffensive by default.
Face it -- the paladin is the Jedi Knight to the Bloodrager's Sith warrior.
The paladin can choose to go high charisma and will be well rewarded for doing so even if it isn't 100% optimal. He has plenty of uses for that charisma and he'll still be an even contributor as a healer/tankish character, with solid self and party healing, some decent back up spells and hardly (if limited) attack options.
Rangers are odd ball across the board -- they have prerequisite free feats and their spells are also divine and utility in nature. They aren't one off druids they are rangers.
This guy isn't either of those things -- he's a magic based battler. It says so in his description. His spell list is primarily offensive.
And again -- we aren't asking for anything from how you can play him to be taken away -- we are asking for the option to be able to focus on the magic side too, if the player wants to invest in it.
You don't want to focus charisma? Find you have a few more buffs per day, and your back up magic missile hurts a bit more than 'normal'.
But if you do want to focus on the magical element at a bit of expense of your martial ability you now don't feel like a chump for taking the damage dealing spells, as they can actually be an effective choice.
And just because it is now a decent option if you want to use it, you aren't really losing anything if you do not want to use it.
OK, you got a point casting has made the class MAD and that is slightly problematic, but there is a big different between having utility spells and buff spells and being a blaster.
I do also think the charisma should provide some other utility. Just needing it for spells feels kind of unfair. It also needs spells like Bladed Dash or at least some swift action spells like the Paladin gets or/and long duration buffs like the ranger. It doesn’t even have mage armor.
It would be cool if it got one or more cantrip(s) as a spell like ability at first level that can be used at will (or 3 + char mod per day). This would add flavor and make it possible to pick arcane strike at level 1. Cantrips are also much more an arcane casters thing than divine thing.
I also think it is a problem he doesn’t get access to cure spells and other useful spells. One good start would be to give it UMD as class skill. Another would be to add some bonus spells regardless of bloodline.
At least this class is both better, cooler and sexier than the Skald.
Alrighty so if we drop the DR, and the improved uncanny dodge what abilities can we cram in there?
Alrighty first up at 5th level we can add in the Blood Fuel ability. I.e. spend a round of rage and regain a spell.
At 7th you have Burning Rage which adds your charisma modifier to damage spells while raging.
At 10th we can expend rounds of rage to add metamagic feats we know for free (I think a 2 to 1 ratio of rounds to levels is fair enough).
Three more levels of DR left to scrub. What else can we shove in?
Im against this, being a frontliner DR and Uncanny Dodge will help a lot.
Blood Fuel.... maybe.
Burning Rage is unnecessary, this Class has no problems when it comes to DPR.
Metamagic gets iffy since it's only a 4th level caster, you need to have the higher Level slot to put the spell in when applying Metamagic so this gets problematic.
Edit: On review Blood Fuel is also unnecessary, this class gets more spells than Paladins and Rangers.
+1
Agree.DR and Uncanny Dodge is a must have although it could loose Improved Uncanny Dodge.
I do Think it should be able to expand its spell list some how.
Perhaps something like New Arcana, or a feat like Unsanctioned Knowledge. Being able to pick one more spell known per level from Bard, Sorcerer or Magus class would make it more versatile.
An arcane version similar to that of feat Unsanctioned Knowledge would be cool. Although make it a bit more flexible. Like being able to trade a higher level spell for a lower level spell, but not the other way around. So you get one more spell known each spell level, but you can choose to pick two level 1 spells, one level 2 spell, no level 3 spell and one level 4 spell.
It should/could be a feat the Skald also could pick.
It should get some sort of bonus to will saves.
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Shield, blur, mirror image, cloak of winds...The reason barbarians have the 2 uncanny dodges and damage reduction is because of their lack of heavy armor and the AC penalty they are hit with when raging. Take away those from the bloodrager, and what will be his defensive compensation?
Dispel Magic
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Dispel MagicShield, blur, mirror image, cloak of winds...The reason barbarians have the 2 uncanny dodges and damage reduction is because of their lack of heavy armor and the AC penalty they are hit with when raging. Take away those from the bloodrager, and what will be his defensive compensation?
Oh no! You discovered the one weakness of bards, maguses, clerics, druids, oracles, inquisitors, rangers, paladins, sorcerers, wizards, and witches! Surely without our magical defenses we'll need loads of dr, uncanny dodge, and heaps of hit points! We can't possibly compete when a clever wizard uses a spell to dispel our defenses forcing us to maybe take damage while we render the encounter into the consistency of spaghetti meat sauce (the chunky kind)!
No, but seriously if anything they really don't need the defenses mentioned that badly even as a frontliner. If Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers somehow manage without uncanny dodge and DR, I'm sure a class that can cast Mirror Image or Greater Invisibility will do fine. If the opponent feels obligated to cast dispel magic on them than chances are they're missing the bigger picture of the other real casters in the group.
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Dispel MagicShield, blur, mirror image, cloak of winds...The reason barbarians have the 2 uncanny dodges and damage reduction is because of their lack of heavy armor and the AC penalty they are hit with when raging. Take away those from the bloodrager, and what will be his defensive compensation?
Oh no! You discovered the one weakness of bards, maguses, clerics, druids, oracles, inquisitors, rangers, paladins, sorcerers, wizards, and witches! Surely without our magical defenses we'll need loads of dr, uncanny dodge, and heaps of hit points! We can't possibly compete when a clever wizard uses a spell to dispel our defenses forcing us to maybe take damage while we render the encounter into the consistency of spaghetti meat sauce (the chunky kind)!
No, but seriously if anything they really don't need the defenses mentioned that badly even as a frontliner. If Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers somehow manage without uncanny dodge and DR, I'm sure a class that can cast Mirror Image or Greater Invisibility will do fine. If the opponent feels obligated to cast dispel magic on them than chances are they're missing the bigger picture of the other real casters in the group.
The plural is magi for future reference.
The fighter gets heavy armor and tower shields as well as bonus from wearing armor.
The paladin has divine grace, lay on hands, healing and buffing spells.
I got nothing for the ranger.
@TarkXT
eh, I've played bard many times. You can't always prebuff. Most of the time I didn't have Mirror image up. Had I been the partys nr1 frontliner I would have been killed many times.
Also, Bloodrager isn't a full caster. It isn't even a 6/9 caster. It gets its first mirror image at level 7. And unlike the bard this is a full BAB class that should kill stuff. Not a buffer and secondary damage dealer like the Bard.
It may not need both DR and Uncanny Dodge but dropping both is bad news. Also, Dispelling a Bloodrager spell will be far easier than dispelling a wizard or even bard spell and wizards are not often frontliners.
Edit:
BTW, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers got other stuff going for them so I fail to see the argument that class X don't need this because class Y don't got it.
And none of them gets an AC penalty when using their class feature.
@Rysky: The Ranger has Barkskin and a pet to keep him alive.
Rysky and Zark put it better than I could have.
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Just building a Blood Rager and noticed with the Arcane bloodline at level 16 that once you use the power you stop being able to cast spells. It kind of seems counter intuitive to the rest of the class. beast shape - no hands, Transformation - no casting or anything spell like. Form of the Dragon--- questionable because dragons cast spells.
Anyway maybe instead of Transformation and beastshape you go with Monstrous physique 4 or giantform 1 or 2... separating them from wild shape or dragon disciple a bit too.
Anyway - lots of fun in this class.
I second this MP of Giantform seem more combat releted. Dragon form save that for the dragon blood line if they pick that blood line.
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@TarkXT
eh, I've played bard many times. You can't always prebuff. Most of the time I didn't have Mirror image up. Had I been the partys nr1 frontliner I would have been killed many times.
Also, Bloodrager isn't a full caster. It isn't even a 6/9 caster. It gets its first mirror image at level 7. And unlike the bard this is a full BAB class that should kill stuff. Not a buffer and secondary damage dealer like the Bard.
It may not need both DR and Uncanny Dodge but dropping both is bad news. Also, Dispelling a Bloodrager spell will be far easier than dispelling a wizard or even bard spell and wizards are not often frontliners.
Edit:
BTW, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers got other stuff going for them so I fail to see the argument that class X don't need this because class Y don't got it.
And none of them gets an AC penalty when using their class feature.
@Rysky: The Ranger has Barkskin and a pet to keep him alive.
Ah ok thanks.
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I don't see how 1 point of DR at level 7 is supposed to make up for defense, or DR 2 at level 10.
I mean if you are going to discount mirror image and their other magical defense options as too little too late and too vulnerable I really don't think you can claim the ability to keep your Dex modifier in a surprise round and not be flanked plus a grand total of DR 5 at level 19 as a solid defense back up.
Not being flanked is really good. I agree that DR 5/- at level 19 is rather pathetic (same can be said about the barbarian's DR).
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Dispel MagicShield, blur, mirror image, cloak of winds...The reason barbarians have the 2 uncanny dodges and damage reduction is because of their lack of heavy armor and the AC penalty they are hit with when raging. Take away those from the bloodrager, and what will be his defensive compensation?
You just spent your turn casting dispel magic on a berserk guy with a falchion. You win a prize!
I don't see how 1 point of DR at level 7 is supposed to make up for defense, or DR 2 at level 10.
I mean if you are going to discount mirror image and their other magical defense options as too little too late and too vulnerable I really don't think you can claim the ability to keep your Dex modifier in a surprise round and not be flanked plus a grand total of DR 5 at level 19 as a solid defense back up.
Abraham, chill out.
We both both know Uncanny Dodge do more than letting you keep yor dex mod. And with dex 14 keeping +2 to ac is really good. And not being flanked is really good.
I don't see how 1 point of DR at level 7 is supposed to make up for defense, or DR 2 at level 10.
I mean if you are going to discount mirror image and their other magical defense options as too little too late and too vulnerable I really don't think you can claim the ability to keep your Dex modifier in a surprise round and not be flanked plus a grand total of DR 5 at level 19 as a solid defense back up.
Abraham, chill out.
We both both know Uncanny Dodge do more than letting you keep yor dex mod. And with dex 14 keeping +2 to ac is really good. And not being flanked is really good.
Honestly it's not that good though. It's a very limited initial bonus (have to be screwed in a surprise round and even then it's not a bonus, you just aren't as screwed as everyone else) and in another very limited situation you don't give the bad guys a +2 bonus.
I mean it really isn't a big bonus. The DR is incredibly late and an incredibly small amount, and people are acting like it is a big deal.
I mean really it isn't on either case. Uncanny dodge is at best alright and improved uncanny dodge is great only if you are consistently fighting people with sneak attack.
If we want to say, "Hey he needs some defense" these are not really the abilities to say, "Alright you have some defense now."
These abilities are not going to make or break your defense. Losing his Uncanny dodge isn't really going to hurt this class for most of his career, and it's not going to really help him either.
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You just spent your turn casting dispel magic on a berserk guy with a falchion. You win a prize!Dispel MagicShield, blur, mirror image, cloak of winds...The reason barbarians have the 2 uncanny dodges and damage reduction is because of their lack of heavy armor and the AC penalty they are hit with when raging. Take away those from the bloodrager, and what will be his defensive compensation?
Oh oh oh is it a falchion to the face? I hope it's a falchion to the face. I've always wanted one of those :3