The guideline they give is an extra 25% for a single crafting feat, 50% extra for 2, more if more crafting feats.
As for blood money, I thought the cost of restorations would wipe out any wealth created.
The guideline they give is an extra 25% for a single crafting feat, 50% extra for 2, more if more crafting feats.
As for blood money, I thought the cost of restorations would wipe out any wealth created.
Where is this guideline. Please link it.
Give me a seck:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items
Search for "Adjusting Character Wealth by Level"
I got interested in the question while I was working on my construct guide.
This should answer CWheezy's questions. I personally dont like it, but it does seem like the most reasonable thing.
As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
obviously a suggestion, and not an official rule.
what I would do however is have my GM read that little blurb, and see what their decision is.
As official as WBL guidelines.
Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.
The table is explicitly a guideline for expected assets, but the actual amount is adjustable.
Another guideline to increase the amount for crafters (and all gear crafted, for the PC or other party members, comes out of the increase) is no less "official" than the ordinary WBL assumptions.
It's worth noting that per the words of the guy who wrote the spell, blood money doesn't actually work with any spell that is not a standard action casting time. E.g. permanency, simulacrum, ect. That pretty much wipes out the worst problems of the spell with regards to wealth by level concerns.
I don't think you read marionette possession.I did. But I don't know anyone in-game with a strength of 46.
Cthulhu has a strength score of 56.
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It's worth noting that per the words of the guy who wrote the spell, blood money doesn't actually work with any spell that is not a standard action casting time. E.g. permanency, simulacrum, ect. That pretty much wipes out the worst problems of the spell with regards to wealth by level concerns.
This here.
Blood Money is a useful, but very limited 1st level spell and certainly not something that will generate unlimited wealth.
And as others have said, the WBL charts are an estimated guideline, not a hardcap.
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It's worth noting that per the words of the guy who wrote the spell, blood money doesn't actually work with any spell that is not a standard action casting time. E.g. permanency, simulacrum, ect. That pretty much wipes out the worst problems of the spell with regards to wealth by level concerns.
Right, and thus you need to use Wish to get your free Simulacrums. Luckily, Wish will pay for 10,000 gp of material components of the base spell so you can get a 20 HD Simulacrum (which would be a copy of a 40 HD creature).
Also, although CWheezy does not mention it, my preferred method for removing the 50 STR damage from casting wish is Heal which is conveniently available twice off of a Summoned Trumpet Archon, or available as a SLA from an Astral Deva.
Finally if you need to get 51 STR, its actually pretty easy even if you start low:
12 Base STR
+10 Form of the Dragon 3
+10 Blood Rage
+2 Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 Inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a steal for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).
Please note that the above gets even easier with Magic Jar/Marionette Possession.
Finally, thanks to a thread I stumbled, I finally have means of Permanency-ing even things with a cost of greater then 10,000 so... there's that.
As to the question of whether Blood Money effects your WBL, of course it doesn't. You are using a spell to pay the material component cost so you aren't actually using any wealth, unless people are going to argue that Eschew Materials is counted against WBL somehow...
As a GM, I wouldn't authorize the Magic Jar method for Blood Money. It specifically says in the spell description that you must cut one of your hands. You don't change identity in the Magic Jar or the Marionette Possession spells, so your own hand (that lifeless body over there) still needs to be cut for the spell to work.
I'd also rule the Ring of Inner Fortitude that would prevent the strength damage would also prevent the spell Blood Money to create the components necessary for the spell. Blood Money specifically says that those Immune to Damage cannot use the spell to create expensive components, so it would logically follow that if you used some method to prevent damage you also wouldn't receive the components.
That's fine Sir Culer as long as acknowledge those are both your houserules and not RAW.
The hand of the body I'm in is mine for the duration of the spell and thus for that length of time it most certainly qualifies as "your" hand. (Even if you wanted to be obtuse, all I would need to do is cut my bodies hand, but I would still be paying the STR out of the borrowed body.)
Second Ring of Inner Fortitude absolutely works (though again as long as we're clear that your houseruling, no problem with you houseruling that way.)
"Spellcasters who do not have blood cannot cast blood money, and those who are immune to Strength damage (such as undead spellcasters) cannot use blood money to create valuable material components."
The Ring does not make you immune to Strength Damage and you are presumably not undead, Ring of Inner Fortitude will simply reduce the STR damage taken by 6 (but you still absolutely took it).
Finally @ Peter Ross, no that's called knowing how the rules work. I'm sorry that I'm better at it then you are comfortable with. However unless you think "find ways to get a high strength so I can cast a spell that wants high strength" is somehow different from "find ways to add damage so my Fighter can deal more damage" I fail to see how this different (other then how powerful of an effect it is).
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Blood Money is a "in game" thing (something I hate by the way and wish Paizo had never created but that is a different thing.)
When building a "level X" character, build using Wealth by Level and ignore reductions from things like Blood Money, Crafting, etc. The Wealth by Level should be treated like a limit on the wealth you could have obtained by level 20.
At least this is how the PVP and PVE competitions I play yearly at GenCon, Origins, and DragonCon consider the issue.
Blood Money is a "in game" thing (something I hate by the way and wish Paizo had never created but that is a different thing.)
When building a "level X" character, build using Wealth by Level and ignore reductions from things like Blood Money, Crafting, etc. The Wealth by Level should be treated like a limit on the wealth you could have obtained by level 20.
At least this is how the PVP and PVE competitions I play yearly at GenCon, Origins, and DragonCon consider the issue.
Well those sound like different rules, especially since Crafting Feats explicitly allow you count items you can make with them at their cost rather than price as per the FAQ.
Furthermore at such a tournament, assuming I have spent my wealth by level, would I not be permitted to use Blood Money to cast Wish? Would I not be able to Eschew material if that SP would put me over my limit?
At the end of the day, the simplest reason they shouldn't be counted against Wealth by Level is that you can simply cast them after you spend your WBL.
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Um... no it deals STR damage. You don't have to take the Strength damage out of your unmodified STR score. Blood Money has no such requirement. Really not sure where you are getting this, but I'm going to need some citations before I even take it seriously.
Blood money already has built-in limits. And as far as WBL, your job as GM is to make sure the players come across a (ballpark figure) amount of stuff as they progress. What they do with it (within the rules) is basically up to them. If they craft, that's what the feats are there for, assuming they have time to do it.
When those temporary Strength buffs wear off, aren't you left with more Strength damage than you can handle? Or are you using scrolls of restoration for this?
Edit: ah, I missed heal.
Considering you have Heal coming... the no consequence meant that the Succubus won't be able to telepathically talk to you and revoke the buff at an inconvenient time. If that came as across as not having to the CHA damage that was no intended.
Edit @ blahpers was gonna edit, then saw your edit, so I'll instead mention here that is really does have to be heal, since restoration has a cost and summons thus couldn't use it.
This actually seems like a huge problem, considering that the spell Blood Money exists.
Given this is a 'standard' wizard, an obscure spell from an AP is hardly standard.
Also, Magic Jar and Marionette Possession allow you to use 'mental abilities'. Does this include spellcasting? It doesn't say - not even the SRD says so, the Magic Jar entry denies you from using Extraordinary or Supernatural abilities of the host as well as the host's spells and spell like abilities, but doesn't explicitly allow you to use your own spells or spell like abilities.
Is there a FAQ on this?
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities
You keep your class, and presumably the class' features (such as spellcasting).
They specifically call out BAB and save bonuses, which are part and parcel of Class. Not called out - Class features; unless that's what they meant by 'mental abilities' (which presumably also covers skills and feats).
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilitiesYou keep your class, and presumably the class' features (such as spellcasting).
Presumably. . . assuming the form is capable of making the motions, and as the material components on its person instead of yours. . .
I generally use wealth by level only if you are building a character of a specific level (i.e replacement for a pc that died, a specific campaign, a one shot, etc.), and as such the wealth by level chart is the appraised value of all coin, items, equipment, investments, & other holdings (i.e. home & maintenance, servants & hirelings, other non-equipment or item wealth). I also encourage (completely optional) to submit a backstory and items or equipment that come from the defeat of some specific opponent or at the end of some quest (a specific dungeon dive, heroic deed, etc.) I offer them a 25% discount on said items.
They specifically call out BAB and save bonuses, which are part and parcel of Class. Not called out - Class features; unless that's what they meant by 'mental abilities' (which presumably also covers skills and feats).
BAB and saves are not class features. They aren't listed as such.
And what would it mean to keep your "class" if you didn't keep the class features it provides?
And I agree, Nathanael, the new form would need to be able to speak for spells with Verbal components, have appropriate limbs for Somatic components, and have access to any needed Material/Focus components.
BAB and saves are not class features. They aren't listed as such.
Class and level determine BAB and base saves, period. You cannot calculate them (for a PC) without them. But BAB and saves special mention, along with 'mental abilities' - which is wonderfully vague.
Are all skills mental abilities (probably not; Climb/Jump/Swim)?
Which feats are mental abilities?
Which class features are mental abilities? Are the Exceptional/Spell-Like and Supernatural ones coming along?
Given that this is a spell being cast by a spellcaster, you think that the spell description would specifically call out whether or not the spellcaster carries along his spellcasting powers to the new body. It's kind of important.
Magic Jar is all kinds of badly written. Probably it was intended that the caster could still cast spells from the victim's body, but given how much attention is given to the target's Ex/Su/Sp/Spells and NOTHING is given to the caster's, it makes me wonder.
Class and level determine BAB and base saves, period.
There is a section in each class called "Class Features." BAB and Saves aren't listed there. Period.
Further, BAB and saves can also stem from racial hit die, thus they are not class features, but rather abilities from gaining hit dice of any sort.
And you didn't address my question, what does it mean to retain your level and class, if you don't keep your class features (ex. spellcasting)?
SKR said yes you can use crafting feats before starting play. So if you have enough feats to cover all your starting gear then you could start with double WBL. WBL is two things; first it is a sum of starting gold you can spend in any way available to your character, and secondly it is a measuring stick useful to GMs to assess how powerful you will be vs standard CRs.
That being said WBL isn't very accurate when it comes to that second task. They would have done much better to use the bonuses granted by your "big six" magic items and compared that to your level rather than try to use gold.
If it hasn't already been said the x1.25 WBL for one crafting feat or x1.5 WBL for more than one feat relates to that second function of WBL and is intended as an adjustment to expected WBL as you adventure. This accounts for the fact that you obviously will not be crafting all your gear after start and so achieving x2 WBL in actual play would be rare.
So in practice a GM is supposed to be able to look at your characters and see that the group is sitting at about x1.1 WBL while the crafter is at x1.85 WBL then he should adjust downward the amount of loot he is giving. {party is 10% ahead of WBL and crafter is 35% ahead of the 50% extra he should have.}
Edit: The numbers for WBL come from Ultimate Campaign
And you didn't address my question, what does it mean to retain your level and class, if you don't keep your class features (ex. spellcasting)?
I did answer your question. Class and level determine BAB and saves. Yes, you can get them from racial hit dice too, which is probably why BAB and Saves are called out in addition.
Still not called out; Class Features. Only mental abilities. Some class features are bound to be mental abilities. The problem is that there's no description of which ones are mental and which are physical. The game doesn't make that distinction anywhere but this one spell.
Like I said, Magic Jar probably lets you keep your spells, RAI. Strictly speaking, however, RAW, it's not clear.
I don't see how that is an answer at all. If all you kept from class were BAB and Saves, they wouldn't need to say you keep your class. They already stated you keep BAB and Saves (regardless of where it stems from). So class must mean something other than BAB and Saves.
Class Features are, by definition, abilities granted by Class. So if you keep your class, you must retain class features. Otherwise Class gives you nothing.
Certain magic items are class specific, also certain feats require certain levels in certain classes as prerequisites, which you'd lose the use of if you didn't retain your class - even if they were strictly mental abilities.
So yes, there is a use for class aside from class features.
Ability damage does notwork this way.
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Strength damage does not actually kill you.
You could probably have a Standard Wizard with a Contingent Heal do this.
/cevah