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Does a trait that reduces the level of an Intensified, Maximized and Empowered spell, reduce the spell for each feat or just for one of the 3 feats even if you are using all 3 feats?
Would the Fireball for example be lvl. 3 + 1 + 3 + 2 = a lvl. 9 spell -1 for a trait making it a lvl. 8 spell or would it be a lvl. 9 - 3 for the trait applied to each feat, only making it a lvl. 6 spell?
what do you think is the most balanced?
What trait are you referring to? If you are referring to Magical Lineage, it lowers the final spell level, it doesn't subtract 1 level from each feat applied.
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
Just minus one total, unless you have both traits, in which case it would be minus two.
Which two traits would that be, please?
NO!
Just minus one total, unless you have both traits, in which case it would be minus two.Which two traits would that be, please?
Magical Lineage and Metamagic Master\Wayang Spellhunter.
I'm pretty sure intensified damage gets maximized too, the only one that doesn't is empowered.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I believe an Intensified, Maximized, Empowered Fireball does a flat
Derp, nevermind. 90 + 45 = 135.
Clearly wrong, as Core p130 clarifies an Empowered Maximized spell gets the 50% rolled.
I've always understood multiple metamagic feats on the same spell operate off the base spell.
You don't roll 7.5 dice. You roll the normal amount of dice. Multiply that by 50% to get the empowered portion of the damage. Maximize then takes the rolled dice and sets them all to 6's.
Hmm, indeed.
Then, how to you roll seven-and-a-half d6?
Yeah man, How do you not know that. Don't show your face on these boards again!
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Thank you all for answering my question. So, its a lvl. 9 spell with all 3 feats and then you have to figure out a way to bring it down to something that's castable.
So:
Wayang Spell Hunter -1 = 8
Magical Lineage -1 = 7
Use a Mask of Lisalla to make spells Empowered and don't use the Empowered metamagic feat = 5, so for my PFS PC its going to be a lvl. 4 spell most times, except when I get a lvl. 11 PC, which is when I'd use Intensified.
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The correct formula is
90 + (15d6 x .5).
lvl. 8 spell or would it be a lvl.This
It would deal:
5d6 (intensified) + 60 (maximized) + 5d6 (empowered) = 60+10d6
I'm not so sure on this, at least not so sure I think we should hail it as "the correct way" unless there's a FAQ I've missed.
Maximize states that it and empower works separately explicitly; we can not assume that is the general rule. In addition, there is some difference in effect; maximize and empower both change what happens with your variable dice (and if it was not for the exception empower would likely be nonfunctional with maximize as there is no variable left to increase). Meanwhile, intensify spell more directly changes the parameters of the spell, increasing the maximum dice.
Personally, I as a DM rules that intensify is applied directly to the spell first, and the others work of it; a maxed out fireball thus would deal 15d6*0.5+15*6.
Thank you all for answering my question. So, its a lvl. 9 spell with all 3 feats and then you have to figure out a way to bring it down to something that's castable.
So:
Wayang Spell Hunter -1 = 8
Magical Lineage -1 = 7
Use a Mask of Lisalla to make spells Empowered and don't use the Empowered metamagic feat = 5, so for my PFS PC its going to be a lvl. 4 spell most times, except when I get a lvl. 11 PC, which is when I'd use Intensified.
Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.
EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.
Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.
With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.
With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.
Oh, typed wrong. Meant a lesser rod of maximize.
This is incorrect. A metamagic fireball's effective level does not change the fact that it is still a level 3 spell.With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.
Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.
Sadly, no.
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
Considering a maximized fireball to be higher than third level is most disadvantageous to the caster, and so therefore would be the general interpretation.
This is incorrect. A metamagic fireball's effective level does not change the fact that it is still a level 3 spell.With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.
Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.
The FAQ disagrees with you.
This is incorrect. A metamagic fireball's effective level does not change the fact that it is still a level 3 spell.With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.
Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.
Sadly, no.
Considering a maximized fireball to be higher than third level is most disadvantageous to the caster, and so therefore would be the general interpretation.The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
Yes I've been away for a while and wasn't aware of this FAQ. I deleted right as you posted.
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Yeah man, How do you not know that. Don't show your face on these boards again!Hmm, indeed.
Then, how to you roll seven-and-a-half d6?
As I stated, right before you posted, I've never used the Maximize metamagic feat before, and was operating off of how I understood it to work. Arcane casters may be a favorite of yours, but not everyone will be as well versed with them as you.
I also realize you've only been on these forums for a few months, but I'd kindly suggest you limit such inflammatory replies in the future. I didn't flag your post for removal, but it certainly qualifies for such.
I think he was probably being facetious Nefreet.
to add to this what would the damage for 15th level cross blooded sorc (orc, red dragon) of an intensified empowered fireball?
AFAIK, it'd be (15d6*1.5)+30.
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to add to this what would the damage for 15th level cross blooded sorc (orc, red dragon) of an intensified empowered fireball?AFAIK, it'd be (15d6*1.5)+30.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those dice rolls.
The 30 gets empowered to since it is a bonus to those dice rolls.
A Maximized, Empowered fireball would do 60 (10d6 maximized) + 5d6 (+50% damage dice). Note that the wording of Maximize Spell specifically states: "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result."
An Intensified, Maximized, Empowered fireball would do 90 (15d6 maximized) + 7d6 + 1d3 (+50% damage dice), as Ravingdork mentioned (although his formula may not make immediate sense to the non-math minded). Note that Intensified Spell actually increases the spell's maximum number of damage dice (typically based on CL); it doesn't add "additional" damage dice to the base spell, it just raises the cap (which is why it only raises the spell slot by one level).
to add to this what would the damage for 15th level cross blooded sorc (orc, red dragon) of an intensified empowered fireball?AFAIK, it'd be (15d6*1.5)+30.Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those dice rolls.
The 30 gets empowered to since it is a bonus to those dice rolls.
Correct. With the two bloodlines providing +2 per die of damage it would be:
(15d6+30) *1.5. Or, effectively, 22.5 d6 + 45
==Aelryinth
I'm not sure what exactly you are aksing, but I'll tell you how to do it.
I'm assuming CL 15 to make use of everything.
fireball from orc sorcerer
10d6+10
maximized
70
empowered
(10d6+10)*1.5
intensified
15d6+15
Maximized and Empowered
70 + (10d6+10)*.5
Maximized and Intensified
105
Empowered and Intensified
(15d6+15)*1.5
Maximized and Empowered and Intensified
105 + (15d6+15)*.5
Any questions?
Zajin,
your DM is treating Intensify like Maximize and Empower and how they interact.
Maximize and Empower are the ONLY Metas that do not affect one another and are applied independently.
I.e. your DM is wrong.
Maximize affects the WHOLE Intensified Fireball.
Empower affects the WHOLE Intensified Fireball.
All other metas stack normally.
If they applied independently, they would be separated out as Empower and Maximize do. Because otherwise a Maximized, Empowered, Intensified Fireball would be a straight 135 dmg, not 90+ .5 * 15d6.
Note that those two metas only interact with ONE ANOTHER that way. They interact normally with all other metas.
==Aelryinth
There's a FAQ that shows how empower works with the bonus to the roll.
Have him show the rules that prove he's right, because you usually can't show rules that say "this isn't special." because it's implied by the fact that it's not listed as special.
So a maximized empowered intensified fireball from a crossblooded Orc/Draconic sorcerer with both magical lineage and wayang spell hunter would be
(15d6@6[Maximize]=90) + (Roll 15d6 * 0.5=~26[empower dice]) + (15 dice=30 damage *1.5=45[Orc/Draconic + empower])= 90 + 26 + 45 = 161 damage on average and consume a 7th level spell slot. It would still have the DC of a third level spell however.
I believe the above is correct without spell perfection. Note that you can use a regular rod of maximize, not a lesser, and get it out of a 4th level slot.
It's not 3.5 level, but that's still a pretty good level of direct damage.
==Aelryinth