Intensified, Maximized and Empowered Fireball


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Does a trait that reduces the level of an Intensified, Maximized and Empowered spell, reduce the spell for each feat or just for one of the 3 feats even if you are using all 3 feats?

Would the Fireball for example be lvl. 3 + 1 + 3 + 2 = a lvl. 9 spell -1 for a trait making it a lvl. 8 spell or would it be a lvl. 9 - 3 for the trait applied to each feat, only making it a lvl. 6 spell?


what do you think is the most balanced?

Grand Lodge

Typically, the traits that do that only affect it by reducing the effective level by 1. So that fireball would take an 8th level spell slot to cast.

Sczarni

Just minus one total, unless you have both traits, in which case it would be minus two.


What trait are you referring to? If you are referring to Magical Lineage, it lowers the final spell level, it doesn't subtract 1 level from each feat applied.

Magical Lineage wrote:
Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

For future reference, don't make us guess which trait you're referring to.

To answer your question, you only get a single -1.

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Eric Saxon wrote:
lvl. 8 spell or would it be a lvl.

This

It would deal:
5d6 (intensified) + 60 (maximized) + 5d6 (empowered) = 60+10d6


Nefreet wrote:
Just minus one total, unless you have both traits, in which case it would be minus two.

Which two traits would that be, please?


NO!


DM Papa.DRB wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Just minus one total, unless you have both traits, in which case it would be minus two.
Which two traits would that be, please?

Magical Lineage and Metamagic Master\Wayang Spellhunter.


I'm pretty sure intensified damage gets maximized too, the only one that doesn't is empowered.

Sczarni

I believe an Intensified, Maximized, Empowered Fireball does a flat 90 damage.

30 + 30 + 30 = 90

Derp, nevermind. 90 + 45 = 135.

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Nefreet wrote:

I believe an Intensified, Maximized, Empowered Fireball does a flat

Derp, nevermind. 90 + 45 = 135.

Clearly wrong, as Core p130 clarifies an Empowered Maximized spell gets the 50% rolled.

I've always understood multiple metamagic feats on the same spell operate off the base spell.

Sczarni

Hmm, indeed.

Then, how to you roll seven-and-a-half d6?


You don't roll 7.5 dice. You roll the normal amount of dice. Multiply that by 50% to get the empowered portion of the damage. Maximize then takes the rolled dice and sets them all to 6's.

Sczarni

I guess that's one way.

Truthfully, for as many arcane casters as I've played in 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder, I've never taken the Maximize feat.


Nefreet wrote:

Hmm, indeed.

Then, how to you roll seven-and-a-half d6?

Yeah man, How do you not know that. Don't show your face on these boards again!

Grand Lodge

Thank you all for answering my question. So, its a lvl. 9 spell with all 3 feats and then you have to figure out a way to bring it down to something that's castable.

So:
Wayang Spell Hunter -1 = 8
Magical Lineage -1 = 7
Use a Mask of Lisalla to make spells Empowered and don't use the Empowered metamagic feat = 5, so for my PFS PC its going to be a lvl. 4 spell most times, except when I get a lvl. 11 PC, which is when I'd use Intensified.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The correct formula is

90 + (15d6 x .5).


James Risner wrote:
Eric Saxon wrote:
lvl. 8 spell or would it be a lvl.

This

It would deal:
5d6 (intensified) + 60 (maximized) + 5d6 (empowered) = 60+10d6

I'm not so sure on this, at least not so sure I think we should hail it as "the correct way" unless there's a FAQ I've missed.

Maximize states that it and empower works separately explicitly; we can not assume that is the general rule. In addition, there is some difference in effect; maximize and empower both change what happens with your variable dice (and if it was not for the exception empower would likely be nonfunctional with maximize as there is no variable left to increase). Meanwhile, intensify spell more directly changes the parameters of the spell, increasing the maximum dice.

Personally, I as a DM rules that intensify is applied directly to the spell first, and the others work of it; a maxed out fireball thus would deal 15d6*0.5+15*6.


Eric Saxon wrote:

Thank you all for answering my question. So, its a lvl. 9 spell with all 3 feats and then you have to figure out a way to bring it down to something that's castable.

So:
Wayang Spell Hunter -1 = 8
Magical Lineage -1 = 7
Use a Mask of Lisalla to make spells Empowered and don't use the Empowered metamagic feat = 5, so for my PFS PC its going to be a lvl. 4 spell most times, except when I get a lvl. 11 PC, which is when I'd use Intensified.

Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.

EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.


Ilja wrote:


Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.

EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.

With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.

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Nefreet wrote:
Then, how to you roll seven-and-a-half d6?

I do it with 7d6 + 1d3


bbangerter wrote:


With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.

Oh, typed wrong. Meant a lesser rod of maximize.


Robert A Matthews wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
Ilja wrote:


Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.

EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.

With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.
This is incorrect. A metamagic fireball's effective level does not change the fact that it is still a level 3 spell.

Sadly, no.

FAQ - Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power? wrote:

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

Considering a maximized fireball to be higher than third level is most disadvantageous to the caster, and so therefore would be the general interpretation.


Robert A Matthews wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
Ilja wrote:


Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.

EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.

With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.
This is incorrect. A metamagic fireball's effective level does not change the fact that it is still a level 3 spell.

The FAQ disagrees with you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Robert A Matthews wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
Ilja wrote:


Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.

EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.

With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.
This is incorrect. A metamagic fireball's effective level does not change the fact that it is still a level 3 spell.

Rods are tied to the spell slot they are modifying. If the spell before rod modification, occupies a spell slot above third level, the lesser rod will not work with it.


Xaratherus wrote:
Robert A Matthews wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
Ilja wrote:


Also a rod of intensify, or a lesser rod of empower, isn't that expensive. Don't know what that mask is though.

EDIT: And of course, from an optimization viewpoint I'd probably not pick Fireball out of all spells, though it IS iconic and a traditionalist wizard might very well find it the most appropriate.

With maximize applied a lesser rod won't work. The final adjusted spell slot level needs to be 3 or lower for the lesser rod. Well, it would work with the traits to reduce level and a first (or 2nd) level maximized spell. Just not with fireball.
This is incorrect. A metamagic fireball's effective level does not change the fact that it is still a level 3 spell.

Sadly, no.

FAQ - Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power? wrote:

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

Considering a maximized fireball to be higher than third level is most disadvantageous to the caster, and so therefore would be the general interpretation.

Yes I've been away for a while and wasn't aware of this FAQ. I deleted right as you posted.


to add to this what would the damage for 15th level cross blooded sorc (orc, red dragon) of an intensified empowered fireball?

Sczarni

Flamewar wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Hmm, indeed.

Then, how to you roll seven-and-a-half d6?

Yeah man, How do you not know that. Don't show your face on these boards again!

As I stated, right before you posted, I've never used the Maximize metamagic feat before, and was operating off of how I understood it to work. Arcane casters may be a favorite of yours, but not everyone will be as well versed with them as you.

I also realize you've only been on these forums for a few months, but I'd kindly suggest you limit such inflammatory replies in the future. I didn't flag your post for removal, but it certainly qualifies for such.


I think he was probably being facetious Nefreet.


Oarwind wrote:
to add to this what would the damage for 15th level cross blooded sorc (orc, red dragon) of an intensified empowered fireball?

AFAIK, it'd be (15d6*1.5)+30.


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Ilja wrote:
Oarwind wrote:
to add to this what would the damage for 15th level cross blooded sorc (orc, red dragon) of an intensified empowered fireball?
AFAIK, it'd be (15d6*1.5)+30.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those dice rolls.

The 30 gets empowered to since it is a bonus to those dice rolls.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A Maximized, Empowered fireball would do 60 (10d6 maximized) + 5d6 (+50% damage dice). Note that the wording of Maximize Spell specifically states: "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result."

An Intensified, Maximized, Empowered fireball would do 90 (15d6 maximized) + 7d6 + 1d3 (+50% damage dice), as Ravingdork mentioned (although his formula may not make immediate sense to the non-math minded). Note that Intensified Spell actually increases the spell's maximum number of damage dice (typically based on CL); it doesn't add "additional" damage dice to the base spell, it just raises the cap (which is why it only raises the spell slot by one level).

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Dragonchess Player wrote:
gains the separate benefits of each feat

I read the Empowered Maximized additional line as "reminder" text to show us how to operate a commonly used multiple metamagic'd spell.

Specifically, the final spells gains the separate (independent) benefit of each metamagic.


Dragonchess Player wrote:

A Maximized, Empowered fireball would do 60 (10d6 maximized) + 5d6 (+50% damage dice). Note that the wording of Maximize Spell specifically states: "An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result."

An Intensified, Maximized, Empowered fireball would do 90 (15d6 maximized) + 7d6 + 1d3 (+50% damage dice), as Ravingdork mentioned (although his formula may not make immediate sense to the non-math minded). Note that Intensified Spell actually increases the spell's maximum number of damage dice (typically based on CL); it doesn't add "additional" damage dice to the base spell, it just raises the cap (which is why it only raises the spell slot by one level).

I am under the same impression as "Dragonchess Player" on how the math is implemented with these metamagic feats.

I recently started playing the game, and stumbled across this combination and thought it would be interesting to play around with. I then got into a discussion with my GM on how to implement these 3 metamagics + my Orc bloodline when playing a LVL 15 Sorcerer.

My GM claims that all metamagics (unless otherwise specified) are implemented individually and always uses the base dmg of the spell. I'll explain more after some math examples on both our takes on the metamagic feats so it gets easier to understand my problem.
(Explanation to be continued further down;)

My take on the Math; Sorcerer Caster LVL: 15

NORMAL Fireball: 60(Maximized) + (10d6/2)(Empowered) + 10 (Orc Bloodline) = 100 (The only thing im not sure of is, does the Empowered dmg vary between 10-30dmg?)
INTENSIFIED Fireball: 90(Maximized) + (15d6/2)(Empowered) + 15 (Orc Bloodline) = 150 (Again, do the Empowered dmg vary between 7,5-45dmg.?)

The GM's take on the Math; Sorcerer Caster LVL: 15

NORMAL Fireball: 60(Maximized) + (10d6/2)(Empowered) + 10 (Orc bloodline) = 80-100 (GM states that the Empower dmg. varies from 10-30 dmg.)
INTENSIFIED Fireball: I need to split up in lines so i can explain GM's reasoning:
70 (Maximized);GM states that base dmg. is 10d6 and since i "roll 10 dices" i get +10 from Orc B.line)
+
5d6+5 (Empower);GM states that the 10d6/2 basically is 5d6 for rolling purposes and therefore i only roll 5 dices here and get + 5 from Orc B.line)
+
5d6+5 (Intensified);GM states that the base dmg. of the fireball is 10d6, and i get the intensified meta in addition to normal dmg, but that it does not increase the dices rolled for Maximize and Empower and i therefore get +5d6 and + 5 from Orc B.line)

Wich sums up to: 70+(5d6+5)+(5d6+5) = 90-140 Fireball dmg. (GM states that Empowered and Intensified dmg. are not affected by Maximize and therefore vary between 10-60 dmg.).

(Explanation continues from top intro;)
I tried to explain to GM that my take on the math is more logical because when you Intensified a spell you raise the CAP on the MAX DICE rolled.
Meaning, the BASE DMG that you apply to your metamagics would increase with your Caster level as long as you have the level required to raise the cap.

Example; (this is probably redundant, but just for clarification about the effects of intensified spell)
LVL 10: 10d6 Without / 10d6 With (It has raised the Cap of the Max Dice, but we don't have the Caster level required to raise it higher and gain no benefit)
LVL 11: 10d6 Without / 11d6 With
LVL 12: 10d6 Without / 12d6 With
LVL 13: 10d6 Without / 13d6 With
LVL 14: 10d6 Without / 14d6 With
LVL 15: 10d6 Without / 15d6 With (Max Dice Cap for spell reached)
LVL 16: 10d6 Without / 15d6 With (Cap for MAX Dices was reached on lvl 15, so we "only" get the +5d6 benefit)

Feel free to correct me if i made a mistake or overlooked something.

Even though i explained it like this, the GM is holding steadfast to the theory, that the base dmg. of the fireball spell can only be MAX 10d6 in regards to calculating metamagic. This you can see in the math examples further up.

I'm at wits end because the GM will not budge on the matter unless it comes from official channels i.e a official Paizo staffmember/moderator.

Isn't there someone from Paizo who can clarify this mess once and for all with an official post explaining the math behind this as it is INTENDED and not how people interpret it?

Please help? :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Finlanderboy wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Oarwind wrote:
to add to this what would the damage for 15th level cross blooded sorc (orc, red dragon) of an intensified empowered fireball?
AFAIK, it'd be (15d6*1.5)+30.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those dice rolls.

The 30 gets empowered to since it is a bonus to those dice rolls.

Correct. With the two bloodlines providing +2 per die of damage it would be:

(15d6+30) *1.5. Or, effectively, 22.5 d6 + 45

==Aelryinth


I'm not sure what exactly you are aksing, but I'll tell you how to do it.
I'm assuming CL 15 to make use of everything.

fireball from orc sorcerer
10d6+10
maximized
70
empowered
(10d6+10)*1.5
intensified
15d6+15
Maximized and Empowered
70 + (10d6+10)*.5
Maximized and Intensified
105
Empowered and Intensified
(15d6+15)*1.5
Maximized and Empowered and Intensified
105 + (15d6+15)*.5

Any questions?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Zajin,

your DM is treating Intensify like Maximize and Empower and how they interact.

Maximize and Empower are the ONLY Metas that do not affect one another and are applied independently.

I.e. your DM is wrong.

Maximize affects the WHOLE Intensified Fireball.
Empower affects the WHOLE Intensified Fireball.

All other metas stack normally.

If they applied independently, they would be separated out as Empower and Maximize do. Because otherwise a Maximized, Empowered, Intensified Fireball would be a straight 135 dmg, not 90+ .5 * 15d6.

Note that those two metas only interact with ONE ANOTHER that way. They interact normally with all other metas.

==Aelryinth


Chess Pwn wrote:

I'm not sure what exactly you are aksing, but I'll tell you how to do it.

I'm assuming CL 15 to make use of everything.

fireball from orc sorcerer
10d6+10
maximized
70
empowered
(10d6+10)*1.5
intensified
15d6+15
Maximized and Empowered
70 + (10d6+10)*.5
Maximized and Intensified
105
Empowered and Intensified
(15d6+15)*1.5
Maximized and Empowered and Intensified
105 + (15d6+15)*.5

Any questions?

Ah, so the +1 from Orc. B.line is also calculated into the empowered effect. This i can like.

I don't question the Math done, i totally agree with it.

I was merely trying to ask for help to convince my GM that this is how it should be done, wich is why i was wondering if an official Paizo moderator or staffmember could come and *plant* a "I APPROVE OF THIS" stamp on this post. That way i can finally convince my GM.

Otherwise he won't budge on the matter and pulls out his "The GM is ALWAYS right" card of Doom.

EDIT:

I tried to send an e-mail to paizo asking for the right way to use the feats, but they replied with "We do not answer rules questions by email" and sent me here to the forums. I have yet to find a Official moderator/staffmember to verify the usage of this exact combination though.


There's a FAQ that shows how empower works with the bonus to the roll.
Have him show the rules that prove he's right, because you usually can't show rules that say "this isn't special." because it's implied by the fact that it's not listed as special.


So a maximized empowered intensified fireball from a crossblooded Orc/Draconic sorcerer with both magical lineage and wayang spell hunter would be

(15d6@6[Maximize]=90) + (Roll 15d6 * 0.5=~26[empower dice]) + (15 dice=30 damage *1.5=45[Orc/Draconic + empower])= 90 + 26 + 45 = 161 damage on average and consume a 7th level spell slot. It would still have the DC of a third level spell however.

I believe the above is correct without spell perfection. Note that you can use a regular rod of maximize, not a lesser, and get it out of a 4th level slot.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

It's not 3.5 level, but that's still a pretty good level of direct damage.

==Aelryinth

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