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So, you get a size bonus to CMD. But all penalties to AC also apply to your CMD, including size penalties to AC, neatly countering the benefits of size to CMD (except the indirect benefit of increased Strength that usually comes with size).
Is that intentional?
I don't know. Most monsters of the upper CR still have an unbeatable CMD.
The size penalty to AC does not apply to CMD because it is instead a size bonus to CMD. You can check any statblock and confirm it.
For example, the Dire Tiger has a -1 Size modifier to AC but a +1 size modifier to CMB/CMD.
Its listed CMD is 31. Doing the math this is: 10 base +10 BAB +8 Strength +2 Dexterity +1 Size = 31
- Gauss
I just checked a fire giant and the size penalty is not applied to CMB or CMD. What monsters did you check Petty Alchemy?
It is a rule in the Core rulebook that all armour penalties apply to your CMD. So size AC penalty should apply too.
If that is not the case for monsters, keep in mind Sean K Reynolds said: "monsters don't have to follow the normal rules for PCs and they're going to be inappropriate examples for determining what PCs are able to do because monsters break PC rules all the time"
That is not a rule that is broken. The CMB size bonus is there to help bigger monsters with maneuvers. If a PC were to increase in size he would also not take the penalty to CMD.
The same should happens, for examp,e with haflling they should not have a -1 penalty to CMD cause they have a +1 bonus to AC.
Nevertheless, it is an unstated rule of CMD that that size bonus/penalty to AC do not apply to AC. You can check it yourslef withe very monsterd printed so far (I think).
I am saying the AC penalty bonus does not apply to CMD.
If you get a -1 for small for CMD, then you get a +1 size bonus to AC.
That way it makes sense, and that is how the monsters are statted out.
Small creatures are harder to hit, but dont resist CMB's as well.
edit: changed CMB to CMD for purpose of clarification.
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in the rules/PRD, combat section:
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
...The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.
same goes for CMD : so far so good.
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.
This is the line that Petty Alchemist is quoting. It makes a distinction about what types of bonuses to AC apply towards CMD. It then says "Any" penalties to AC apply, after the "special size modifier".
The problem is that no where is it saying that the special size modifier to CMB/CMD is meant to replace the normal size penalty to AC. Unfortunate wording, which leads to interpretation like the OP's.
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The size penalty to AC does not apply to CMD. Check every non-medium creature ever printed.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You're forgetting this line though:Any penalties to a creature’s ac also apply to its CMD.Which cancels out the positive bonus.
No, but since bonuses of the same type don't stack. You take the higher.
+1 size (Large CMD bonus)
-1 size AC penalty (Large AC Bonus)
+1 is two points more than -1, so take +1 and ignore -1.
You're forgetting this line though:in the rules/PRD, combat section:
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
...The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.
same goes for CMD : so far so good.
Any penalties to a creature’s ac also apply to its CMD.Which cancels out the positive bonus.
That is incorrect. As I said before I reversed engineered a fire giant and numbers matched my rules interpretation.
If you don't agree then choose 3 random monsters that are not medium, and the math will work out in my favor.
Any time I wonder about something like this, I always go check a few stat blocks first. Jason Bulmahn knows what he's doing. =p
Yeah, the stat blocks may have been done differently, but the text says ANY. So perhaps the wording should be improved.
Bonuses of the same type don't stack, but I don't think a -1 penalty is a "bonus". Otherwise, if I were affected by a negative morale effect and a positive one, should the positive morale not only cancel out the negative but also apply in full, because it is the higher bonus of the same type?
You're forgetting this line though:Any penalties to a creature’s ac also apply to its CMD.Which cancels out the positive bonus.No, but since bonuses of the same type don't stack. You take the higher.
+1 size (Large CMD bonus)
-1 size AC penalty (Large AC Bonus)+1 is two points more than -1, so take +1 and ignore -1.
Penalties do though, and the AC is a penalty, not a bonus. Which isn't to say in this case it should be applied...
It's clear that
1. the intention is that the CMD size modifier is in place of the AC size modifier, and that size penalties to AC should not apply to CMD
2. every stat block ever published supports this intention
3. the RAW doesn't actually support this, probably due to some oversight or to the design team believing this to be obvious.
In any case, RAI is clear, so just play it.
It's clear that
1. the intention is that the CMD size modifier is in place of the AC size modifier, and that size penalties to AC should not apply to CMD
2. every stat block ever published supports this intention
3. the RAW doesn't actually support this, probably due to some oversight or to the design team believing this to be obvious.In any case, RAI is clear, so just play it.
Agreed. And Nicos is correct, that a penalty and a bonus are not the same thing.
However, if anyone is simply desperate, and can't possibly live without RAW, check the rules for "Size" - they explicitly use the term "Size modifier", and combat maneuvers use a special 'Size Modifier' in it's place.
It is obvious after all.
Rikkan is right. The rule could have been written more clearly, but it wasn't.
-Matt
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It is a rule in the Core rulebook that all armour penalties apply to your CMD. So size AC penalty should apply too.
If that is not the case for monsters, keep in mind Sean K Reynolds said: "monsters don't have to follow the normal rules for PCs and they're going to be inappropriate examples for determining what PCs are able to do because monsters break PC rules all the time"
Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:
CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
You mean the bolded part?
AC determination:
10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + other modifiers
Other modifiers, include the
Table: Size Modifiers
Size Size Modifier
Colossal –8
Gargantuan –4
Huge –2
Large –1
Medium +0
Small +1
Tiny +2
Diminutive +4
Note that that modifier has a type: size modifier
Then we ave the definition of penalty:
Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.
Note how it say that a penalty don't have a type.
Then the CMD determination:
CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.
Oops, that size modifier is right there.
It is not a penalty, it doesn't stack with the other size modifier.It is a specific rule for the CMD, so it supersede the general rule for AC.
Ergo, you use only 1 size modifier for teh CMD, and it is the one defined under the CMD rules, not the one define under the AC rules.
Further material (there is a command to place a table in the forum?):
Table: Size Bonuses and Penalties
Size AC/Attack CMB/CMD Fly Skill Stealth Skill
Fine +8 –8 +8 +16
Diminutive +4 –4 +6 +12
Tiny +2 –2 +4 +8
Small +1 –1 +2 +4
Medium +0 +0 +0 +0
Large –1 +1 –2 –4
Huge –2 +2 –4 –8
Gargantuan –4 +4 –6 –12
Colossal –8 +8 –8 –16
From here
I would say that it is pretty clear that it is a typed modifier, so you use it only once.
If you threat it as an untyped modifier it would stack with itself, so a colossal creature would have a AC penalty of -8 for being colossal, plus -4 for being gargantuan or larger, plus -2 for being huge and -1 for being large, for a total of -15.
Diego, I appreciate your look into this. However.
A modifier is not mutually exclusive from being a penalty or bonus.
Consider the wording of the PRD glossary for a critical hit:
Critical Hit
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
Would you say that means without any enhancement bonus, since clearly it's just the modifiers?
Likewise the glossary for a luck bonus calls it a "modifier".
Bonus (Luck)
A luck modifier represents good (or bad) fortune. Multiple luck bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest luck bonus applies.
A negative size modifier is a penalty. A positive one is a bonus.
A size modifier applies a bonus or penalty to a number of things at the same time, in relevance to this topic, both a CMD bonus and an AC penalty (for the big guys).
At no point was size treated as untyped.
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Monsters CHEAT guys. Just throwing this out, do small creatures take a penalty to CMB? Because the get -1 CMB/D and a +1 on attack rolls.
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.
Has anyone considered that "Any" refers to the list in the previous sentance? That list does not include size.
/cevah
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The penalties the rule is referring to are the temporary ones e.g. conditions/spells. A cowering creature (-2 penalty to AC) would also have a -2 to CMD. A stunned creature would have a -2 to CMD. A slowed creature per the spell would have a -1 to CMD. So on and so forth.
Instead of spelling it out like they did for the extra bonuses, they just said "any penalties." It is poor wording, but it does not include size since size is already represented.
+1 on that it is a Size Modifier, not a penalty or bonus. It just so happens that every now and then it takes a similar form.
For AC it adds +Size Modifier.
For CMB it adds +Size Modifier.
For CMD it adds +Size Modifier.
Abjurer has a really good point.
The size penalty to AC does not apply to CMD. Check every non-medium creature ever printed.
Exactly.
You guys are arguing as if hundreds of monsters over dozens of books do not prove you are wrong.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This is not a FAQ candidate.
Sheesh.
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Diego, I appreciate your look into this. However.
A modifier is not mutually exclusive from being a penalty or bonus.
Consider the wording of the PRD glossary for a critical hit:
Critical Hit
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
Would you say that means without any enhancement bonus, since clearly it's just the modifiers?
Likewise the glossary for a luck bonus calls it a "modifier".
Bonus (Luck)
A luck modifier represents good (or bad) fortune. Multiple luck bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest luck bonus applies.
A negative size modifier is a penalty. A positive one is a bonus.
A size modifier applies a bonus or penalty to a number of things at the same time, in relevance to this topic, both a CMD bonus and an AC penalty (for the big guys).
At no point was size treated as untyped.
You are confusing the colloquial use of penalty with the game term penalty. They are 2 different things.
A modifier can be a (colloquial term) a bonus or a penalty but it isn't a penalty, game term, that is something very specific and defined by the rules.Look your example, and the look again the definition of penalty:
Your example:
Bonus (Luck)
A luck modifier represents good (or bad) fortune. Multiple luck bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest luck bonus applies.
then the definition of the game term penalty:
Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.
A luck bonus is typed, so it is not a penalty, it is a modifier. Modifiers and penalties follow different rules, the modifiers of the same type don't stack, the penalties are untyped and stack.
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At no point was size treated as untyped.
No?
The very second in which you are trying to stack 2 size modifier together you are treating them as untyped.The standard CMD modifier is already using the size modifiers, for his specific list of modifiers, you are trying to apply it again, so you are treating it as untyped.
- * -
Critical Hit
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
Would you say that means without any enhancement bonus, since clearly it's just the modifiers?
Again, you are not looking to the rules as a whole.
The reply to your question is in the magic items section:A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat.
It would have been useful to list the attack modifiers in the combat section like they did for the AC modifiers?
Other Modifiers: Many other factors modify your AC.
Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
Deflection Bonus: Magical deflection effects ward off attacks and improve your AC.
Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC.
Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.
...
Size Modifier: You receive a bonus or penalty to your AC based on your size. See Table: Size Modifiers.
Maybe.
It was mandatory?
No. It is pretty clear unless you want to trow a spanner in the gears and take only pieces of the rules to get the outcome you want.
That list of modifiers is hardly exhaustive, BTW.
You can have a lot more modifiers, like Luck, Sacred, Profane, etc. Listing all of them probably would have required a few pages and it would have required the Developers to modify those pages every time a new kind of modifiers was added.
It is as you say wraithstrike, people is just pointing that is not stated in the rules. To my knowledge there is not sentence to negate the penalty to AC in the CMD due to size.You're forgetting this line though:in the rules/PRD, combat section:
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
...The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.
same goes for CMD : so far so good.
Any penalties to a creature’s ac also apply to its CMD.Which cancels out the positive bonus.That is incorrect. As I said before I reversed engineered a fire giant and numbers matched my rules interpretation.
If you don't agree then choose 3 random monsters that are not medium, and the math will work out in my favor.
I agree, that it should have been written better.