As fascinating as this is can we make a separate thread in the rules forum for this? Please?I agree. Another thread would be nice. There are several to choose from as this issue has already been asked, discussed, and answered many times.
So back to our poor Rogue . . ?
She's not poor. She lifted a purse from a local merchant and is in fact quite comfortable for the next month or so, assuming she doesn't squander it all on alcohol and expensive items. ;)
probably. dip 1 in MM monk and go nuts.
Is it possible to come up with a build that uses Dirty Trick?
I see no reason why not. IT's objectively better than feint if you can manage to get a good sized CMB.
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Is it possible to come up with a build that uses Dirty Trick?Since CMD scales with BAB and gets absurd for lots of enemies and rogues are medium BAB with no accuracy boosters, no. Not unless you're dipping maybe 4 rogue levels at most on a lore warden or something.
If you're going to go fighter, I honestly would have gone with Cad.
Cause Cads fight like rogues. Sure they don't get sneak attack, but honestly.. In a one on one fight, the cad's ability to fight dirty is not matchable by the one class you'd expect to be the dirtiest of them all in combat.
I find that just plain wrong, honestly.
Greater Feint Denies the foe it's Dex bonus for the whole round.
it doesn't say it only applies to your attacks or that it only applies to melee attacks
it just flat out denies dex bonus for a whole round
meaning, the rogue just lowered the AC of the enemy for Each ally whom attacks them, not just himself, meaning the rogue can finally call himself a team player
Is it possible to come up with a build that uses Dirty Trick?Since CMD scales with BAB and gets absurd for lots of enemies and rogues are medium BAB with no accuracy boosters, no. Not unless you're dipping maybe 4 rogue levels at most on a lore warden or something.If you're going to go fighter, I honestly would have gone with Cad.
Cause Cads fight like rogues. Sure they don't get sneak attack, but honestly.. In a one on one fight, the cad's ability to fight dirty is not matchable by the one class you'd expect to be the dirtiest of them all in combat.
I find that just plain wrong, honestly.
Rogues could stand to have a talent that lets them use acrobatics in place of CMB for dirty fighting.
IMO a bunch of talents like that wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Greater Feint Denies the foe it's Dex bonus for the whole round.
it doesn't say it only applies to your attacks or that it only applies to melee attacks
it just flat out denies dex bonus for a whole round
meaning, the rogue just lowered the AC of the enemy for Each ally whom attacks them, not just himself, meaning the rogue can finally call himself a team player
Nod nods.
Exactly! A Rogue's great advantage over anyone else is his skill points. They need more avenues to exploit this.
I mean look at the Thug builds - Intimidate is a big bonus there.
And we could have the feinter builds, using bluff.
Possibly, what would be most helpful over all, is having lots most talents and feats for the rogue that use skill points a lot, adding to an rogue's overall ability to provide things to the group.
I agree with Marthkus and Espy Kismet.
Maybe a feat that allows a rogue to add their acrobatics skill to their chance to hit and damage? To reflect the fact they're nimble, dexterous, and can strike you in ways you definitely didn't see coming.
you mean, a talent that lets rogues use acrobatic roll for there ac?
quick math
at 20. 30dex + skillmastery + 2 feats equals a constant AC of 53.
A plus 5 item puts that to 58. A plus 10 item puts it to 63
That's OP. The talent would have to be once per day or reduced in effect.
NOTE: This is getting a little too much homebrewy for this thread.
For the rogue to be effective they need to hit and they need to get sneak attack most of the time. An animal companion would help with having someone to flank with. Boosting your movement speed so it is easier to get into flank is another. Starting with two levels of Mad Dog Barbarian and taking the Boon Companion feat at third and teaching the animal companion both the flank and aid tricks would help. Go with a small cat, boost it’s dex and have it take weapon finesse, dodge, and mobility. Put some of it’s skill points into acrobatics and you have a great flanking buddy. It has the speed to help it get into flank and spend a bit of money for some mithral chain shirt barding and it should not be going down very much. It will have +12 attack which means it can make the aid other check 95% of the time. That is a +6 to attack when it is flanking with you.
You know, it just dawned on me. This thread isn't about the most effective rogue. This is actually a thread about the need for the rogue to stop idling around with life and instead settle down with a decent job and maybe take out a mortgage to become a property owner, while finding a decent significant other and providing grandkids for the rogue's parents.
For shame! Let the rogue live free! ;)
You know, it just dawned on me. This thread isn't about the most effective rogue. This is actually a thread about the need for the rogue to stop idling around with life and instead settle down with a decent job and maybe take out a mortgage to become a property owner, while finding a decent significant other and providing grandkids for the rogue's parents.
For shame! Let the rogue live free! ;)
Its more like the Rogue is an office worker who got transferred to another branch where he finds out his coworkers there manage multiple different jobs while also doing his own. And some of them are doing it better and hes starting to get nasty looks from his boss, coworkers, friends and even his wife is beginning to look at that Trapper Ranger sitting at another table lustfully.
I think the issue that I have with the rogue is that it's big role in the past has been kept, due to the niche protection. Once they moved away from that Niche Protection (a good move in my opinion), they didn't know what to do with the rogue, so it really doesn't have anything special.
I feel like they should have given the rogue more Debuffing abilities. I understand not wanting to make them equal to other classes, combat-wise, and it's pretty difficult to make rogues' skill supremacy too good and too class-defining, or else they become too close to mandatory for my taste.
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I think the issue that I have with the rogue is that it's big role in the past has been kept, due to the niche protection. Once they moved away from that Niche Protection (a good move in my opinion), they didn't know what to do with the rogue, so it really doesn't have anything special.
I feel like they should have given the rogue more Debuffing abilities. I understand not wanting to make them equal to other classes, combat-wise, and it's pretty difficult to make rogues' skill supremacy too good and too class-defining, or else they become too close to mandatory for my taste.
That is actually a pretty good point there.
And a Rogue could actually be pretty good with debuffing via Intimidate and Greater Feint, if well, to really make use of it, the Rogue shouldn't have to spend 6-8 feats to do so.
Like Dazzling Display to Shatter Defenses, or Combat Expertise to Greater Feint.
I think the issue that I have with the rogue is that it's big role in the past has been kept, due to the niche protection. Once they moved away from that Niche Protection (a good move in my opinion), they didn't know what to do with the rogue, so it really doesn't have anything special.
I feel like they should have given the rogue more Debuffing abilities. I understand not wanting to make them equal to other classes, combat-wise, and it's pretty difficult to make rogues' skill supremacy too good and too class-defining, or else they become too close to mandatory for my taste.
That is actually a pretty good point there.
And a Rogue could actually be pretty good with debuffing via Intimidate and Greater Feint, if well, to really make use of it, the Rogue shouldn't have to spend 6-8 feats to do so.
Like Dazzling Display to Shatter Defenses, or Combat Expertise to Greater Feint.
A houserule I've considered is giving Rogues free feats from a selected pool, similarly to the way many classes get free feats that don't require prereqs to be met, so they can pick up some of these feats (which would make roguish manuevers like Dirty Trick much more viable) but I'm nowhere near good enough at 3.x design to do this well, myself. As much as I like PF, games like HERO system and such are much more my wavelength, design wise, and lacking a good framework for design, I can't have a good feel for how well the implementation would work.
Is it possible to come up with a build that uses Dirty Trick?I see no reason why not. IT's objectively better than feint if you can manage to get a good sized CMB.
What if you used Feint first before activating the Dirty Trick? The loss of Dex (and Dodge) could reduce the CMD of your target. Granted, not all targets will have Dex/Dodge bonuses to lose, so the application may be limited. But in many cases this is a 2-8pt reduction in CMD which helps to compensate for the 3/4 BAB and the lack of attack roll boosts.
Or what about an Elf Rogue with Major Magic (True Strike) 7+/day and the Quicken Spell-like Ability Feat? Again, the application is limited to 3 uses per day, but then you're looking at:
Greater Feint (move), True Strike (swift), Dirty Trick (standard) at an effective +20 to +30 or so.
Of course I'm still partial to the Chill Touch rogue mentioned quite a ways back. Feint your target and he is denied his Dex, Dodge, Armor, Shield, and Natural armor bonuses now. Not sure what AC is left at this point. =)
And speaking of Chill Touch, you could always burn a Hero point (if you use them) to Greater Feint as your extra action and then Full-attack Touch. With hardly any AC bonus to speak of, your 2nd and 3rd touches should hit pretty effectively.
Hmm...a GTWF, double touching rogue with 6 full-attacks. That would hurt a lot (in feats AND enemy Hpts).
I might have been ninja'd on this idea, however, as I seem to recall someone mentioning something similar either up-thread or on another thread.
actually, pertaining to the rogue's skill-monkeying: perhaps something along the lines of 3.5's "skill tricks" for the rogue to use skills for a variety of uses beyond their normal scope?
i noticed you guys talking about making the skills more useful up above.
actually, pertaining to the rogue's skill-monkeying: perhaps something along the lines of 3.5's "skill tricks" for the rogue to use skills for a variety of uses beyond their normal scope?
i noticed you guys talking about making the skills more useful up above.
For a Homebrew game, that could be a nice addition. The OP though wants to refrain from Homebrew rules and stick to what PF offers us in print. Hence the challenge for our poor, or not so poor, Rogue.
Our group didn't notice problems with the 3.5 rogue mainly because of skill tricks.
you mean, a talent that lets rogues use acrobatic roll for there ac?
No. I meant that, for every X ranks of acrobatics they have, they gain +Y to their attack roll and/or +Y to damage.
for anyone who still cares.
Oh we have a misunderstanding. By "pump fake" I meant that as a way to feint an opponent at range with greater feint to make them lose their dex bonus to all attacks until the start of your next turn through an over reaction to the maneuver.
So did you say?
It's intended that you feint in melee range.
Greater feint does just remove the dex mod to AC. So if a rogue feints the target with greater feint, his fighter buddy can hit that target without that target having its dex mod to AC.Feint works for melee attacks, not ranged attacks. Nothing in the wording of Greater Feint mentions ranged attacks, so it still only helps you with melee attacks.
Likewise, Feint only affects attacks you make against the feinted creature—YOU tricked him, not everyone. Greater Feint makes no mention of "all creatures treat him as flat-footed" or the like, so it works the same as a normal feint. ALL Greater Feint does is extend the duration of the feint maneuver. For you, the one who made that maneuver.
Beyond that, and beyond my interpretation, I suppose you'll need to take the question over to the rules forum.
It's not an official ruling, but I think his opinion matters when looking at RAI.
That's correct. That has no impact on whether or not you can trick an opponent into moving in any direction while you move in another direction though. Tricking a foe into moving in the wrong direction is not what feint does, in any of its incarnations. It's an interesting idea for a new combat maneuver... but it would be a really tricky one to pull off, since when you reverse it and use it against PCs, that basically lets the GM move the player characters as he wishes and that can get ugly and weird.Ah ok, some of us were under the impression that greater feint just removed the target's dex bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.How would that change anything? All Greater Feint does is extend the duration of the bonus you get against a target with your melee attacks.What about when someone uses greater feint?Since feinting is an action that modifies melee attacks, the implication is that you need to be close enough to the creature to actually make a melee attack. This action doesn't really account for tricking a person into thinking you're going to move in one direction when you really want to move in another if there's no immediate followup melee attack.RAI question.
Do you have to be next to a creature to feint it? Like can you do a Peyton Manning pump fake to feint an enemy?
Oh we have a misunderstanding. By "pump fake" I meant that as a way to feint an opponent at range with greater feint to make them lose their dex bonus to all attacks until the start of your next turn through an over reaction to the maneuver.
So did you say?
It's intended that you feint in melee range.
Greater feint does just remove the dex mod to AC. So if a rogue feints the target with greater feint, his fighter buddy can hit that target without that target having its dex mod to AC.
That's a weird interpretation that James made on Greater Feint. Is that 4 people that view it the same way now?
Happy New Year and happy gaming.
3 since you thought greater feint worked for range attacks.
Go have some drinks with some friends
Now there is something we can agree on.
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Here's a thought:
Pick up major magic for True Strike. Take the Quicken Spell Like Ability monster feat.
Now you can dirty trick almost anything, guaranteed. Just note that you get 2 uses a day (three if you get the elf racial bonus twice), but this is mid combat we're talking about here. Wand of Truestrike for an ambush you set up (You should be an effective scout...)
Combine with quick dirty trick and you'll be able to get most of your attacks off on a blind opponent. Add that to the fact that you can sneak attack blind opponents. This would probably be a strength build (Don't know why there's so much anti strength builds here... Most rogues that I imagine are bandits, not ninjas).
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.
Getting that first dirty trick off is the key. A blinded opponet just lost it's dexterity bonus to CMD, and another two from the strength, and another two from losing AC. Thats 4 + any dex bonus that they just lost to thier CMD. If they had no dexterity bonus to AC, entangled will make thier life even worse for another -2 to CMD. So an average of -6 to CMD.
For the Dirty Trick Rogue, Crippling Strike is good for those hard to hit opponents, and dispelling strike for those darn wizards. This might even work with the coveted two weapon fighting rogue (though that is feat intensive...) I'll make and post a build to see if it goes anywhere.
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Well... it doesn't look too good.
Str 19, Dex 10, Cons 13, Int 13, Wis 14, Char 7
1 Combat Expertise
2 Weapon Training
3 Improved Dirty Trick
4 Minor Magic
5 Improved Trip
6 Major Magic-Truestrike
7 Quick Dirty Trick
8 Combat Trick:Greater Dirty Trick
9 Iron Will
10 Crippling Strike
11 Quicken Spell-like: Truestrike
12 Dispelling Strike
With all stat upgrades into Strength, and a belt of strength +4, you get a CMB of 22 (For dirty tricks). Compared the average CMD of 37 on monsters... Ew. Even though rogues should be known for dirty tricks, they can't do any dirty tricks successfully even if they tried. They have to have magical help. Sad day.
With true strike, the question changes from if it lands to how long it'll last, assuming that the enemy doesn't try to wind the sand from his eyes as a move action. After the initial attack, a trip maneuver would succeed on a 14. Then getting a melee attack in after that should be easy, for a -2 to thier strength.
I don't think there's much else I can do to make these maneuvers land more often...
Here's a thought:
Pick up major magic for True Strike. Take the Quicken Spell Like Ability monster feat.Now you can dirty trick almost anything, guaranteed. Just note that you get 2 uses a day (three if you get the elf racial bonus twice)
That's the basic idea of what I was trying to get at above. Swift casting True Strike would be a way to get +20 on your check, thereby allowing you to Dirty Trick just about anything with a reasonable chance of success.
With good gear and buffs, your max CMB should be in the low 30's. A True Strike gets that into the low 50's. Feinting before you Dirty Trick denies your target their Dex (and Dodge) which would lower the CMD by a few points in many cases. So Feint (move), True Strike (swift), and Dirty Trick (standard). Then let your allies take advantage of your hard work and hope the enemy doesn't clear the condition before you get a chance to full-attack next round (or have Opportunist on hand to get one shot in before next Round).
The only problem with all this is that you only get 3 uses of it. One shots like PFS that involve 2-3 fights may not be a problem. Lengthy adventures, though, would mean you run out pretty quickly. So best to save those uses for when you think you really need them.
In all though, I think part of the problem with the Rogue is that he was built to be skilled in lots of areas, but not really shine in any. If he has a strength it's that he can be decent at LOTS of things whereas other classes can be excellent at SOME things.
He seems to be designed to:
Scout out information (Dungeons, Taverns, etc).
Go in the Surprise Round.
Go first in any Round.
Add noticeable damage under certain conditions.
Debuff targets (Feint, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, Dispelling Attack).
Build himself around Skill Ranks like Fighters are built around Feats.
(I'm sure there are tons of other uses I'm missing atm, but then it was a late night last night. :P )
None of the above really shines except for specific instances. Like going first in the Surprise Round, SA'ing the Boss, then Full-attacking him while he's flatfooted in Round 1 and bringing him down before anyone else can manage even a 5ft adjustment.
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I'm no longer convince the rogue has a problem.
I think the problem comes from people's goals with the rogue when they make a build. People like to assume flanking and just assume that combat will take care of itself or they feel that the rogue isn't a combat class and thus it's OK for them to be completely ineffectual when they can't flank.
It's also a flaw to think that strength rogues are the only combat viable ones.
Oddly enough though. I've found that some of the best combat feats for the rogue are skill focus(X), and one of the best combat talents for the rogue is skill mastery.
Basically I'm advocating feint or intimidate builds with a healthy amount of UMD for range actions.
It's a fallacy to assume that a rogue has to focus less on skillmonkeying to be better in combat. The rogue is uniquely synergistic when it comes to select skills and combat.
Does that make the rogue better than other classes? No. But what X class can do is less important to me than what X CR encounter can do, and I think a properly built rogue can meet those challenges.
Can the right bard build still be better? SURE! But if that was all that mattered no one would play fighter when they could play a barbarian.
Halleluiah!
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I'm no longer convince the rogue has a problem.
I think the problem comes from people's goals with the rogue when they make a build. People like to assume flanking and just assume that combat will take care of itself or they feel that the rogue isn't a combat class and thus it's OK for them to be completely ineffectual when they can't flank.
It's also a flaw to think that strength rogues are the only combat viable ones.
Oddly enough though. I've found that some of the best combat feats for the rogue are skill focus(X), and one of the best combat talents for the rogue is skill mastery.
Basically I'm advocating feint or intimidate builds with a healthy amount of UMD for range actions.
It's a fallacy to assume that a rogue has to focus less on skillmonkeying to be better in combat. The rogue is uniquely synergistic when it comes to select skills and combat.
Does that make the rogue better than other classes? No. But what X class can do is less important to me than what X CR encounter can do, and I think a properly built rogue can meet those challenges.
Can the right bard build still be better? SURE! But if that was all that mattered no one would play fighter when they could play a barbarian.
Actually Fighters can do things better than barbarians due to large number of feats.. I play fighters more and rarely pick up a barb.
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Actually Fighters can do things better than barbarians due to large number of feats.. I play fighters more and rarely pick up a barb.
Well... A certain half-orc barbarian, the son of the famous RAGE-LANCE-POUNCE, and his rhino would like a word with you...
His name is RAGE-RHINO-POUNCE!
Items:
Greater Belt of Hurling (+4 Strength) 42,000
Cloak of Resistence +3 9,000
+1 Seeking Flaming Frosting Atlatl 32,000
MW Breastplate 350
Feats and -Rage Powers:
Rapid Reload
-Ferocious Mount
Point Blank Shot (PBS)
-Superstition
Rapid Shot
-Lesser Beast Totem
Beast Rider
-Greater Ferocious Mount
Rage Power: -Beast Totem
-Greater Beast Totem
Mounted Combat
-Eater of Magic
Trample
Stats (during rage and after race, level-ups, and items):
Strength: 17(32), Dexterity: 13, Constitution: 14(20)
Intelligence: 10, Wisdom: 13, Charisma: 7
Rounds of rage: 30 rounds a day (15 when the mount is included)
All favored class bonuses to superstition (From being half human)
Saves: 17, 9, 12
Against Spells: 26, 18, 18 plus a reroll
HP: (average) 149.5
AC: 19 (17) (could invest in some better armor here...)
Spells wanted:
Haste, Enlarge Person
Items:
Rhino Hide Armor 5,165
Quick Runners Shirt 1,000
Cloak of Resistance +3 9,000
Amulet of Mighty Fists: flaming, frosting 16,000
2 Permanent castings of Greater Magic Fang CL 12 16,920 (including the services cost)
Feats:
Improved Natural Attack
Power Attack
Improved Overrun
Charge Through
Greater Overrun
Strength: 22(29), Dexterity: 14(12), Constitution: 15 (21)
Intelligence: 2(3), Wisdom: 13, Charisma: 5
Saves: 14, 10, 11
Against Spells: 23, 19, 16 +reroll
HP: (average) 93.5
AC: 30 (29)
Spells wanted:
Strong Jaw (level 4) +2 size bonus to attacks
Animal Growth (level 5) +8 str, +4 con, -2 dex, +2 ac
Lockjaw (level 2) Grab ability
13/13/8/3 + 11(str) + 1(PBS) - 2(rapid shot) =
23/23/18/13
At 3d6 + 12 damage each
Average if all hit: 90
Attacks with Spells:
23/23/23/18/13 + 1 (haste) =
24/24/24/19/14
1d8 + 2d6 + 13 damage every hit
Average if all hit: 122.5
Attacks from Mount:
gore, claw, claw
20/20/20
For 4d6+12, 2(1d8+2d6+12)
Average: 73 (Power attack 17/17/17, average 91)
With strong jaw and animal growth:
(calculating strong jaw, then animal growth, then Improved Natural
24/24/24
8d6+16, 2(4d6+16)
Average: 88 (Power attack 21/21/21, average 106)
On a charge: considering powerful charge
22/20/20
6d6+16, 2(1d8+2d6+12) +2d6 (Rhino Hide)
Average: 91 (Power attack 19/17/17, average 109)
Charging, with strong jaw and animal growth:
(calculating strong jaw, then animal growth, then Improved Natural Attack)
26/24/24
14d6+23, 2(4d6+16) +2d6 (Rhino Hide)
Average: 139 (Power attack 23/21/21, average 157)
If there's an opponent to overrun enroute to target, his mount gets an AoO AND a free claw attack!
Average without spells: 50
Average with spells: 58
Average TOTAL damage when you overrun a target and pounce another (with spells):
139 + 122 + 58 = 319 damage!
Total Gold spent: 135,435 out of the 140,000 WBL limit
I just built that barbarian, and it feels good :), though wrong place for it...
Anyways, rogues are cool wewt wewt!
you mean, a talent that lets rogues use acrobatic roll for there ac?No. I meant that, for every X ranks of acrobatics they have, they gain +Y to their attack roll and/or +Y to damage.
there Is actually a feat in the OA 3.5 book from the Crane Family that does this, but I believe it's damage only, +1/5 ranks.
==Aelryinth
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It's a fallacy to assume that a rogue has to focus less on skillmonkeying to be better in combat. The rogue is uniquely synergistic when it comes to select skills and combat.
I think this statement is more accurate as "A rogue can focus on combat and still be a pretty darned good skill monkey", because you do technically have to focus less on skills because you can't spend too many feats on skill focus. Still, I agree with this statement more or less.
As I've noted before, the rogue's problem is that his skill monkey ability does not dovetail well with his combat capabilities in any unique manner.
The bard can, at least, use Ki-Rin style and gain his bardic knowledge as a bonus.
The rogue can't do anything with his skills that anyone else can't also do. Having all those skill points doesn't mean much when his main competition to take all the important skills, as well.
Skill consolidation actually hurt the rogue. When it takes 6 skill points just to have the baseline abilities of a rogue, people really don't want to spend those. When it takes 2-3, it's not an imposition.
==Aelryinth
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Actually Fighters can do things better than barbarians due to large number of feats.. I play fighters more and rarely pick up a barb.Well... A certain half-orc barbarian, the son of the famous RAGE-LANCE-POUNCE, and his rhino would like a word with you...
His name is RAGE-RHINO-POUNCE!
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Man, thats the build I'd love to have a wizard who knows Anthropomorphic animal or Pup form.
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I've been imagining what would happen with a cavalier 4, barbarian 10 (or 12 if you want come and get me), fighter 6 (or 4). The horse master feat for a full scaling mount, the half orc feat for a better horse to ride, 10 levels of barbarian to get access to all the cool rage powers you'll be sharing with you mount, and the extra feats from being a fighter. It'd be... evil.
Or, just convince your druid friend to let you ride him and... well.. he'll be raging :)
As I've noted before, the rogue's problem is that his skill monkey ability does not dovetail well with his combat capabilities in any unique manner.
The bard can, at least, use Ki-Rin style and gain his bardic knowledge as a bonus.
The rogue can't do anything with his skills that anyone else can't also do. Having all those skill points doesn't mean much when his main competition to take all the important skills, as well.
Skill consolidation actually hurt the rogue. When it takes 6 skill points just to have the baseline abilities of a rogue, people really don't want to spend those. When it takes 2-3, it's not an imposition.
==Aelryinth
Feint + skillmastery = sneak attack.
you're better at feinting by being good at bluffing.
As for skill monkeying... Skillmastery handles that just fine and comes far before a similar bard ability.
Feinting is a bluff check, which is a Cha skill. Most rogues are not Cha rogues, it's a secondary or tertiary stat, at best.
A bard, which is a Cha class, will likely have the benefits of skill focus and more with his high Cha, and on top of this can use Perform ranks for a 2:1 advantage, leveraging both Cha and skill points to higher effect. Net effect, he'll be as good or better then the Rogue at bluffing if he wants to be, and so he'll be better at Feinting, and he can sing or spell himself to even high skill bonuses if he's a mind to.
==Aelryinth
Feinting is a bluff check, which is a Cha skill. Most rogues are not Cha rogues, it's a secondary or tertiary stat, at best.
A bard, which is a Cha class, will likely have the benefits of skill focus and more with his high Cha, and on top of this can use Perform ranks for a 2:1 advantage, leveraging both Cha and skill points to higher effect. Net effect, he'll be as good or better then the Rogue at bluffing if he wants to be, and so he'll be better at Feinting, and he can sing or spell himself to even high skill bonuses if he's a mind to.
Bards have no skillmastery and less of a reason to invest in feinting (no or reduced SA).
Bards have little reason to invest both deceitful and skill focus into bluffing. Chances are your rogue with 10 cha is better a bluffing than a sorcerer much less a bard.
Less reason to invest in Feinting is absolutely correct.
And the rogue really doesn't do it any better, although he has to. If the Bard is of a mind to feint, he WILL do it better, because he's a bard.
It's kind of irritating how it works out that way.
==Aelryinth
Less reason to invest in Feinting is absolutely correct.
And the rogue really doesn't do it any better, although he has to. If the Bard is of a mind to feint, he WILL do it better, because he's a bard.
The whole point is that the bard has no reason to do it. For a rogue feinting is a viable tactic(sneak attack + opportunist), for a bard it just makes the enemy potentially slightly easier to hit.
A bard shouldn't be wasting his feats on feint because he doesn't have class features that support it.
If a bard isn't burning feats on it, a feinting rogue will be better at bluffing.
He's not burning feats on Feinting, mind you. He's burning feats on BLUFF...which helps to Feint.
And he'll likely end up a better bluffer then the Rogue when he wants to be, which is annoying.
Yes, the rogue NEEDS it more. Not disputing that in the slightest.
==Aelryinth