My group of players and I were talking about magic weapon special abilities and bonus stacking, and a question came up about using two different bane abilities on a single opponent. The example the player gave was a +1 bane (humanoid-human) & bane (humanoid-elf) weapon used in combat against a half-elf.
Between the four of us, we determined the weapon's enhancement bonus would not increase to +5 but instead remain at +3. However, we were unable to really determine if the extra 2d6 damage from both bane abilities would apply or if only one of them would.
It was my opinion that the 2d6 bonus damage from both banes would apply and stack because they are untyped bonuses. I'd like to get a second opinion on that decision.
Would two different bane weapon ability damage bonuses stack if both of them applied to a single target?
I completely agree with your judgment call. This is how I've always run this situation (though usually Orc bane bow, and picked up human bane arrow off orcs; then used the combination against half-orc grunts).
First, there is a debate whether or not you can put Bane on a weapon twice. The RAW would seem to say no because there is only one Bane property. However, many people (including myself) believe that you should be allowed to treat different bane types as separate properties for the purposes of what a weapon has on it.
Second, if you do have a creature that qualifies for a bane weapon twice (such as Bane <lawful outsider> and Bane <Evil outsider> when fighting a Devil) you should still only get +2 enhancement and 2d6 damage. The reason is that they are both the same source, Bane.
This is stated on CRB p208 regarding spells. It is generally accepted that that statement applies to more than just spells.
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
The only thing having two Bane properties should get you is that multiple creature types are covered. It should not stack damage if a creature qualifies for Bane a couple times because it is still just Bane.
- Gauss
Edit: Because there is nowhere in the Pathfinder rules that states the answer clearly I decided to dig into the history of this question (all the way back to 3.5 in order to help explain my second answer.
If a character fights a devil with a +1 lawful-outsider bane evil-outsider bane long-sword, do the two bane powers stack?
The rules don't come right out and say it, but multiple bane properties shouldn't stack. The weapon either is or isn't bane to your target--it can't be "more bane than bane."
Of course, the extra damage from bane stacks normally with any other extra damage--a +1 holy shock evil-outsider bane longsword would deal an extra 5d6 damage when used against a barbed devil (2d6 from holy because it's evil, 1d6 electricity from shock, and 2d6 from bane because it's an evil outsider).
Note, I had to type this up so any errors in formatting etc. are my own.
While 3.5 is not Pathfinder some elements of 3.5 may still make sense for Pathfinder. It is up to you whether or not this still makes sense for you (ie: the above quote is not Pathfinder RAW although it was accepted in 3.5).
Bizbag,
IF you can only have Bane on a weapon once that would also apply to Bane Bow with Bane Arrows. After all, if you have a Flaming Bow and Flaming Arrows the resulting arrows only have Flaming once. :)
- Gauss
Bizbag,
We agree, I was just providing more details regarding the scenario you stated (Bane Bow + Bane Arrows). I apologize for not being more clear regarding that.
- Gauss
I'm with Bizbag and Gauss on the 'no stack' thing here too.
So would the extra damage from the bane [evil outsiders] stack with the extra damage the holy property deals to evil creatures? Technically, its two different sources (or at least two separate effects), though thematically, they are coming from the same source.
Personally, I see not problem with two banes stacking. The targets of both would- in a normal game- few, and the weapon would be much less effective against nearly every other creature. If I was running the Worldwound AP or other campaign relying heavily on a single monster type, I would make it hard for players to get two banes (or other, similar effects) on the same weapon.
Gator the Unread,
Bane and Holy are different properties so they stack. Regarding being thematically the same, I do not agree that they are the same because Holy is anti-alignment while bane is anti-creature.
As for you not seeing a problem with two banes stacking it appears you do see one, in the case of a specific campaign type. So, your options are: They do not stack (which appears to be the intent if not the rule) or create an artificial means to prevent it's availability.
I would prefer to stick with the first myself, but its your game. :)
- Gauss
I agree, multiple Banes do not stack. Bane will stack with Holy if the creature is of appropriate types.
My group of players and I were talking about magic weapon special abilities and bonus stacking, and a question came up about using two different bane abilities on a single opponent. The example the player gave was a +1 bane (humanoid-human) & bane (humanoid-elf) weapon used in combat against a half-elf.
Between the four of us, we determined the weapon's enhancement bonus would not increase to +5 but instead remain at +3. However, we were unable to really determine if the extra 2d6 damage from both bane abilities would apply or if only one of them would.
It was my opinion that the 2d6 bonus damage from both banes would apply and stack because they are untyped bonuses. I'd like to get a second opinion on that decision.
Would two different bane weapon ability damage bonuses stack if both of them applied to a single target?
This came up before. The majority agreed with your ruling.
What about Axiomatic/Anarchic and Holy/Unholy? Does a +1 Axiomatic Holy Demon-Bane [weapon] provide +3 and +6d6 v. Demons or do the Axiomatic and Holy properties not stack?
It wouldn't be a great weapon unless you're invading the Abyss, since it's a total of +6 and very narrowly better than a +1 weapon that will typically add 2d6 to damage. It could be an interesting MacGuffin for a specific quest, though. Make it a +5 base and you've got your epic demon slayer.
The different aligned properties stacks because they are not the same property. Bane has different versions of bane, but they are all still bane so the enhancement bonuses dont stack.
The added damage "2d6" is up for debate but since it is not typed I dont see a problem with it.
| 19 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
Fretgod99, an Axiomatic Holy weapon is two different weapon properties. They have two entries. Now, I do agree that thematically they are both the same (anti-alignment) but by RAW they are not the same property.
Perhaps we should start a FAQ request.
Question 1) Can you have two Bane properties on a single weapon?
Example: A +1 weapon with Bane <Evil Outsider> and Bane <Lawful Outsider>.
Question 2) If Question 1 is a yes, what are the bonuses for a +1 weapon with Bane <Evil Outsider> and Bane <Lawful Outsider> when fighting a Devil?
Options:
A) +3 enhancement and +2d6 (Bane does not stack with Bane)
B) +3 enhancement and +4d6 (Bane modifies the original weapon's enhancement bonuses so you have two +3's but the damage dice stacks)
C) +5 enhancement and +4d6 (Bane fully stacks)
- Gauss
I figured they would because technically they're different abilities, even though they're thematically the same. Holy is basically Bane (Evil), except it affects alignment, not creature subtype. Same with Anarchic and Lawful.
As for the 2d6 for different Banes, I really can't imagine they'd stack. It's untyped, but it still comes from the same source. Overlapping benefits and all that. I FAQ'ed it, though. Can't hurt.
Hmmm, only 7 FAQ requests. Perhaps this is not that big a deal. :)
- Gauss
Holy is not Bane against alignment, Holy is a +2 ability, but Bane is +1, and Holy doesn't give the extra +2 enhancement.
Holy is basically Bane against Evil. It's a +2 ability and doesn't get the extra +2 enhancement because Holy can affect a lot more creatures that Bane [one subtype] can. The idea behind them is the same, but Holy applies a lot more broadly. Less so with Axiomatic and Anarchic (and Unholy is really only good for an NPC bad guy or a PC if you'r running an evil campaign).
If you're running through a standard quest or AP with a Holy [weapon], you're probably getting the benefit of that +2d6 on I'd guess greater than 75% of your attacks, especially if you're fighting a lot of things that aren't animals or vermin or something along those lines. Hell, in a lot of questions or adventure paths, you'd probably get to make use of it against almost every enemy you encounter. You'd get the (better) benefit of the Bane (Evil Outsiders) [weapon] a lot less frequently.
That article never says you cannot have more than one bane on your weapon, just that only one of the applicable banes on your weapon works on your target.
For example I see no reason why you could not have say Evil Outsider Bane and Undead Bane on the same weapon. They affect totally different creatures.
That said, in our games we handle it like the OP does.
A weapon is either Bane to you or it isn't.
When the ship is sinking and the cry, 'Women and children first!' goes out, female children don't get two seats!
Hehe funny. But not that enlightening.
Actually, it's a pretty good way to think about it. If you have a Bane (Human) weapon and want to add Bane (Elf), you are not double-baneing your weapon; you are just adding another trigger for your weapon's bane effect. But once baned, can't get baned again.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9rdl
Bane: Can I apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon? If so, do their effects stack?
You can apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon. For example, you can have a +1 dragon- and fey-bane longsword, which has an increased enhancement bonus and damage against dragons and against fey.
If you have multiple bane effects on a weapon and attack a creature against which more than one bane applies (such as a chaotic- and evil-outsider bane weapon used against a demon), the effects do not stack: the weapon's enhancement bonus is only +2 higher than its actual enhancement bonus, and it only deals +2d6 points of damage against that opponent.
(Compare to fighter weapon training or ranger favored enemy bonuses, both of which say you use the highest bonus if more than one bonus applies.)
Thank you PDT. :)