Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Why do you always assume that the advice I give is not for your benefit?Because your advice is predicated on the assumption that we're idiots, and because you have a long history of being very antagonistic with me.
If I were truly "your foe"...If you were truly my foe, I would expect you to take every opportunity to try to discredit me in the community.I discredit some of your ideas, because I don't see them leading to a more viable settlement in the game. But very well, I will leave you to your ideas without further advise. In private and in game I'll certainly look to exploit any of those weaknesses you continue to hold onto.
Although I know there are absolutely no plans for our respective settlements to be in conflict with each other, at least from Pax's intentions, I would not take too lightly what being "Red" to the UNC would be like. I'm hopeful that you could at least consider maintaining a "grey" status for the most part and the occasional feud thrown in for fun.
Well, you've already made statements that Nihihon's "not one copper" stance on extortion will garner red status, and I can provide the mathematical justification for why publicly and credibly precommitting to such a stance is superior against rational opponents who cannot precommit. From that, I conclude that you are trying to commit as credibly as possible to be Nihimon's enemy if he continues with his Not One Copper policy.
Because I know that Nihimon will not back down from his policy even if rational games theory proves that he would be better off doing so, I conclude that it is harmful to question your commitment to declare him red for doing so; such a question is expected to result in a greater commitment from you, which has a negative effect on the expected outcome.
That is why I have no doubt that you will carry out your plan to be hostile to Nihimon's characters. The politics become problematic when discussing how your posture towards one of The Seventh Veil's leaders interacts with your position towards the organization, or how your posture towards either changes the political situation between them and the organization which you intend to use to shelter and harbor your activities.
Personally, I like the idea of Pax gaming and want to see them help create a healthy game. I think they can do that better without your 'help' than they can with it, and I am trying to cause them to see all of the same evidence I do so that they are likely to come to the same conclusion, as quickly as possible.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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He doesn't like PvP, I can't imagine that will be hard.
Your lack of imagination isn't important here. In the Zen sense, to truly dislike something, one must understand it well enough to love it first.
Oh, and, as above, even if we had a diviner who refused to fight, we would be better off than an opponent who lacks a diviner who refuses to fight.
Goblin Squad Member
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That's really not the point. If you've got a diviner who won't defend your settlement, you won't last as long as those that have diviners that do fight. Keep believing that those who don't want to fight won't ever have to.
Don't bother Areks. They apparently wish to gimp their settlement and refuse to see the fact that PFO is going to be extremely competitive when it comes to Settlement vs. Settlement PvP, in all of the forms of PvP.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That's really not the point. If you've got a diviner who won't defend your settlement, you won't last as long as those that have diviners that do fight. Keep believing that those who don't want to fight won't ever have to.
You really refuse to see the point. The choice is NOT between having a crafter who fights and having a crafter who refuses to fight; the choice is between having a crafter who refuses to fight and not having him.
Settlement policies don't create members, they can only include or exclude people who already exist. I say that crafters, even if they are unwilling or unable to fight, are a positive addition to our settlement. I am not reducing the number of people who are willing to fight for us by making that statement, and regarding the edge case of people who don't want to fight but would be willing to do so if all settlements required it: Their contribution in a fight would likely be marginal, and we gain more by having ALL of them with us as noncombatants than we ever would gain from having a small fraction of them as reluctant combatants (not to mention that by getting all of them, we deny our enemies their small fraction of reluctant combatants).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the quick and easy summary would be that most settlements punish and exclude people for not contributing. TEO will reserve the rewards unlocked through contributions to those who contribute, and keep everything else openly available for all who are not against us. We will be using the carrot instead of the stick.
It's our hope that this will pay itself off many times over in the additional members and good will it should generate. If it does not, we still haven't incurred any great losses and we are not opposed to making sacrifices that benefit the community.
I believe TSV holds a similar position.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having a crafter does not mean you don't have a defender. It is not an either or choice. You can promote defense with non combatants.
It's just a numerical issue. If one settlement has more members that are willing to contribute to the defense of the settlement they have an advantage.
Discounting war tactics, numbers will matter. Fostering a sense of responsibility to your settlement is not slanderous or relegating them to second class citizenry.
It is merely taking the new information into account, and finding positive ways to foster defense.
He doesn't like PvP, I can't imagine that will be hard.Your lack of imagination isn't important here. In the Zen sense, to truly dislike something, one must understand it well enough to love it first.
Oh, and, as above, even if we had a diviner who refused to fight, we would be better off than an opponent who lacks a diviner who refuses to fight.
Whoa, you're so zen, teach me your ways great Monk. I'll compare/contrast them with the Zen/Pagan philosophies. theheeh
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Goblin Squad Member
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If one settlement has more members that are willing to contribute to the defense of the settlement they have an advantage.And if another Settlement has an equal number of defenders, plus a bunch of non-combatants, they'll have an advantage.
*rolls eyes*
Fine, we're both pretty. I think that might be the only conclusion any of us will get out of this.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Whoa, you're so zen, teach me your ways great Monk. I'll compare/contrast them with the Zen/Pagan philosophies. theheehHe doesn't like PvP, I can't imagine that will be hard.Your lack of imagination isn't important here. In the Zen sense, to truly dislike something, one must understand it well enough to love it first.
Oh, and, as above, even if we had a diviner who refused to fight, we would be better off than an opponent who lacks a diviner who refuses to fight.
All that is necessary for a school is a log with a teacher and a student on one side and a teacher and a student on the other side.
In times of scarcity, the log may be omitted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hey everybody :)
Please stop with the oversensitive personal crap, ok?
By all means, let's go after each others' positions and claims ferociously--that's intellectual rigor if you do it right. But otherwise:
1) Same team! Our stake ultimately is in the game being well-designed and implemented, and having a rocking good time for years. We all have the same stake, even when we disagree how to get there.
2) How we shake out on forums isn't the same way we shake out in game. You know, like maybe some of us us have very direct speech norms and are habituated in public argumentation, and maybe can be a little irritating to someone who comes from different speech communities w/ different norms. Maybe that same person will be your best ally in game ;) And otherwise. Just remember that person who is getting under your skin here might be really good to play with.
3) It's a friggin' game. It's meant to be (I think will be) compelling fun. Gettin' all snipy and hateful and what not, doesn't match the real world stakes of fun.
Just sayin' ;)
He [Nihimon] doesn't like PvP, I can't imagine that will be hard.I hate getting griefed/ganked as much as the next guy, but I've long recognized the absolute necessity of non-consensual PvP.
Welcome to the PvP club. It'll be fun to watch you turn down Bludd's SAD and then slug it to the bitter end, and then watch the winner corpse camp the loser... all in good fun, of course. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If one settlement has more members that are willing to contribute to the defense of the settlement they have an advantage.And if another Settlement has an equal number of defenders, plus a bunch of non-combatants, they'll have an advantage.
And if both sides have equal numbers, the side that has a percentage or the larger percentage of absolute non-combatants will lose.
Yes, having a lot of non combatants will be benefitial... Just not when it comes to superior numbers in combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Discounting war tactics, numbers will matter. Fostering a sense of responsibility to your settlement is not slanderous or relegating them to second class citizenry.
It is merely taking the new information into account, and finding positive ways to foster defense.
I don't believe TSV is so much attacking your right to draft all Pax members into your defensive force as defending their right to use a volunteer based military.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And if both sides have equal numbers, the side that has a percentage or the larger percentage of absolute non-combatants will lose.
I'm not convinced this will be true for settlement warfare.
For a feud, most likely yes.
For a war, I think (hope) logistics and supply will be at least as important as combatants.
I also hope wars will play out over weeks, not hours or days.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe TSV is so much attacking your right to draft all Pax members into your defensive force as defending their right to use a volunteer based military.
No one said anything about drafting or forcing crafters to train in combat or survival skills. What was described was that there is an expectation that if the settlement was at risk of falling, all hands would be expected to do what they can and fight to the death if need be.
Should all characters have a bare minimum of survival and combat skills, I certainly believe so. We will likely not start off with no skills, probably have a few basics anyway. Training those basics should not take very long if they are not there at the start.
Bottom line is this, what can your crafters craft if they lose the settlement where their forge, loom, mill, oven, etc. was?
What is the downside to training those skills, just enough to withstand a few rounds of combat if need be?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe TSV is so much attacking your right to draft all Pax members into your defensive force as defending their right to use a volunteer based military.No one said anything about drafting or forcing crafters to train in combat or survival skills. What was described was that there is an expectation that if the settlement was at risk of falling, all hands would be expected to do what they can and fight to the death if need be.
Should all characters have a bare minimum of survival and combat skills, I certainly believe so. We will likely not start off with no skills, probably have a few basics anyway. Training those basics should not take very long if they are not there at the start.
Bottom line is this, what can your crafters craft if they lose the settlement where their forge, loom, mill, oven, etc. was?
What is the downside to training those skills, just enough to withstand a few rounds of combat if need be?
As long as settlements don't see the non PvPers as 'red' and to be killed as others have suggested, I suspect you have the right of it, Bludd.
I would hope and expect everyone to participate in defense, but there will be that one guy or gal that has zero offensive skills, but has probably forged the whole militia quality 300 swords and has maybe also built the towers the PvPers are using in the defense of the settlement. Should they been seen as red to the settlement, especially if the PvPers don't have the skills to produce what he/she has and some of them probably cannot even contribute to basic harvesting/gathering/building?
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Goblin Squad Member
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And if both sides have equal numbers, the side that has a percentage or the larger percentage of absolute non-combatants will lose.I'm not convinced this will be true for settlement warfare.
For a feud, most likely yes.
For a war, I think (hope) logistics and supply will be at least as important as combatants.
I also hope wars will play out over weeks, not hours or days.
I just wanted to point out to you, that you in the above quote, did indeed just say that Professional Military may not necessarily win against a militia.
A Standing Military will likely have its own organic logistics element. Which will likely be far superior to a cobbled together logistics element for a militia, let me also remind you that the gatherers will not be gathering outside the city. Your Idealism intrigues me.
I would Agree with you if it was a 1v3 or more ratio. But Areks clearly states that the numbers are even.
I do hope wars will play out over time, but not a forced time. I want it to take exactly as much time as it should. The more overwhelming the odds, the quicker the fall.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't believe TSV is so much attacking your right to draft all Pax members into your defensive force as defending their right to use a volunteer based military.No one said anything about drafting or forcing crafters to train in combat or survival skills. What was described was that there is an expectation that if the settlement was at risk of falling, all hands would be expected to do what they can and fight to the death if need be.
Should all characters have a bare minimum of survival and combat skills, I certainly believe so. We will likely not start off with no skills, probably have a few basics anyway. Training those basics should not take very long if they are not there at the start.
Bottom line is this, what can your crafters craft if they lose the settlement where their forge, loom, mill, oven, etc. was?
What is the downside to training those skills, just enough to withstand a few rounds of combat if need be?
I keep seeing the word "Expectation" thrown around here.
Everyone should realize that if you have an expectation that doesn't happen, it isn't the fault of the world. Any problem with unfulfilled expectations is a problem with the expectations, not the world.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If one settlement has more members that are willing to contribute to the defense of the settlement they have an advantage.And if another Settlement has an equal number of defenders, plus a bunch of non-combatants, they'll have an advantage.And if both sides have equal numbers, the side that has a percentage or the larger percentage of absolute non-combatants will lose.
Yes, having a lot of non combatants will be benefitial... Just not when it comes to superior numbers in combat.
Let's just leave it at 'the group with the most properly equipped and trained combatants on the field is likely to carry the field'. There's a lot of variation on that one theme, but at least it's a point of agreement;.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe TSV is so much attacking your right to draft all Pax members into your defensive force as defending their right to use a volunteer based military.No one said anything about drafting or forcing crafters to train in combat or survival skills.
Quite right. You didn't, Charlie George didn't, Areks didn't, Nihimon didn't, and I didn't either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe TSV is so much attacking your right to draft all Pax members into your defensive force as defending their right to use a volunteer based military.Discounting war tactics, numbers will matter. Fostering a sense of responsibility to your settlement is not slanderous or relegating them to second class citizenry.
It is merely taking the new information into account, and finding positive ways to foster defense.
You did actually
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually I didn't. I said you would drafting people into your defensive force, which is true based on whats being said. Then Bluddwolf goes off on a tangent about me claiming you will force them to take combat skills while confirming what I actually said, which is that you will force them to join your defense.
Are you really so petty as to stoop to the level of putting words in my mouth and then making a fuss about how they aren't true?
All this about a comment that wasn't even intended to be aggressive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This has not been about PFO for about three quarters of a year now. This is one or two people on one side vs. three to five people on the other side. And it's pretty obvious now. Nothing hidden and nothing covert about it. And everyone involved in incapable of distinguishing between the points at hand and the personal animosity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is so much emphasis on personalities that it overshadows the conversation about game design and design philosophy. It doesn't, or shouldn't, matter whether the person speaking is into PvP, whether one poster's epeen is bigger or smaller, or what game you played some time ago. What should matter is whether the systems being proposed will work well and whether anyone can come up with good ideas to suggest.
Nobody should have to defend themselves personally. This should be a shared cooperative effort. There are no prizes awarded for winning the internetz.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...overshadows the conversation about game design and design philosophy.
Each of those two extreme sides seems somehow to believe, if they don't respond to the latest post from the other, that GW will lock the game design in "favour" of the other side, thus permanently destroying any possible hope for their ever having any fun whatsoever.
Hyperbole deliberate on my part; all-too-often indistinguishable on theirs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I merely pointed out that you did indeed choose to use a "Buzzword." And the buzzword you chose was in fact Draft.
Draft:
"Compulsory enrollment in the armed forces; conscription."
Conscription
"compulsory enlistment for state service, typically into the armed forces."
Both "Ideas" stated imply negativity. Mention the draft/conscription in the United States and there is political blowback.
Either way, the topic of the thread is "Could PFO thrive with no unsanctioned PvP?" If talking about PvP on a military scale doesn't meet the topic, then I bow out of the conversation. Asking if PFO with Thrive hints that will players will not be to upset at all of the above to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Pax Deacon
Singling out any one individual for chastisement was not my aim. Apologies to any that took it that way. It was meant in general.
Here is an example of a snarky question posed in a way that could have been done differently. I hate to single someone out but I am very sure of this.
There will be plenty of times when gatherers. crafters, PVE people, merchants etc. will be expected to put their play time to use at little or no personal profit for the good of thier settlement. Will the PVP crowd be down with dumping their profit of phat lootz into the settlement's coffers?
Here is a great answer that did not rise to the bait and was not even given kudos for it. Until now.
+1 Xeen
Will the PVP crowd be down with dumping their profit of phat lootz into the settlement's coffers?In "Sov" based fights, that was always a must.
All loot goes to refund the people who lost ships.
In fact, Eve implemented loot tracking for this very reason.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I merely pointed out that you did indeed choose to use a "Buzzword." And the buzzword you chose was in fact Draft.
Sorry you don't like my choice of words, but I wouldn't make the assumption I'm from a political party where "draft" is a dirty word when applied to defending your homeland. Based on the definition you gave, would you not agree it is accurate? You are forcing people into your armed forces / service of your state if your state comes under threat? I suppose I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you will throw them in with your army rather than sending them ahead as a angry torch wielding mob to die fruitlessly. I know I'd much prefer to be drafted into a defensive force than forced into a mob of sacrificial meatshields.
My point is the entire post and argument revolved around the idea that I was saying you would be forcing them to use XP on combat abilities. I didn't say that. All I said is that they would be drafted into your defensive force, and everything you guys are saying is backing that up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have I stated Golgotha's policy on the matter? You've made an assumption of Golgotha. Due to our support and overall nature, I doubt we will have to call upon a drafted "Militia." If a military could breach our forces, there are three district state funded branches of my military to destroy it. I doubt I will have to disturb what crafters will find their homes within Golgotha.
That being said, there are contingencies in place to defend against an aggressor that finds itself at the gates of Golgotha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If one settlement has more members that are willing to contribute to the defense of the settlement they have an advantage.And if another Settlement has an equal number of defenders, plus a bunch of non-combatants, they'll have an advantage.And if both sides have equal numbers, the side that has a percentage or the larger percentage of absolute non-combatants will lose.
Yes, having a lot of non combatants will be beneficial... Just not when it comes to superior numbers in combat.
While this is (probably) true, it's not the same as saying if both settlements are of the same size, the side that has a percentage or the larger percentage of absolute non-combatants will lose.
Nobody seems to be thinking, for example, about the opportunity cost of taking that crafter away from spending XP on crafting in order to spend it on combat skills (as was suggested by Bludd). If that crafter will earn enough more gold to put even one mercenary PvPer on the front line instead of himself by producing higher quality goods and selling them at a premium, then that's great; he is better off not training combat skills at all. Of course if his superior crafting brings in enough money to provide more mercs, then that is just gravy.
I shall fight, and not just in defence of my settlement, although I in no way consider myself a PvPer but I recognise that others can contribute more, and better, by doing other things. This is the point I think that Nihimon is making. The idea advocated by Xeen above of self-sufficiency is contrary to everything we have been told about PfO, ergo the "full time" PvPers will need dedicated crafters*, whether they like it or not. Yes, bodies on the line are important, but there's more than one way to put them there.
*And no, crafting alts that you hardly play (or just multi-box when bored) don't count. Crafters need contacts and supply networks and all sorts of other things alongside the ability to craft; if you are not looking after this full time you will be significantly disadvantaged with regard to someone who is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree completely Lhan. That is why Golgotha will not utilize its non-combatants in military operations. Let us not forget that all military forces will need equipment, and that equipment must come from somewhere. Taking crafters out of their workshops puts a logistics drain on your forces.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nobody seems to be thinking, for example, about the opportunity cost of taking that crafter away from spending XP on crafting in order to spend it on combat skills (as was suggested by Bludd).
I tried to make this point in a previous post, Lhan (possibly badly). I had asked people to look at it from the other side of things, being would people frown on PvPers when they had no skills to harvest/gather mats for crafting or building settlement structures. Effectively, would people consider a pure Fighter a second class citizen if they spent zero XP some sort of crafting skill?
Crafters will be needed to make weapons and armor, build settlement structures, gather and refine materials...and who knows what else. The settlement that integrates the pure PvPer with the pure crafter (and everything in between) and doesn't consider either second class citizen will be an incredibly effective one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very good points, Lhan. I do hope that crafting is as full time a job as PvP'ing, and not mostly comprised of pushing a button and watching an unmoving screen (or, more likely, doing something else while your toon crafts). There are a lot of ways that crafting can be made better in this regard, so hopefully GW can work their usual magic and come up with an innovative solution that satisfies most parties.
OMG, I LVOE FABLE. The music... the music... the music. Oh it was a splendor to my ears. An orgasm to my sense of hearing.
Also, the game was pretty good too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think point has been made. Harvesting and crafting is of limited use. At most, one can loot those killed for their technology. Not a lot is needed for top fighters. Equiping lower fighters will only see equipment lost when they are killed.
THe game will go to the larger aggressive side. It may be good to have crafters, but far better to have fighter/warrior/soldiers who can recover booty. Crafters may be of some use to LG community, but the aggression of the larger N(GNE) and (LGN)N communities will quickly strip/harvest those resources. Crafters in these "N(GNE) and (LGN)N" server the need of the community or are gone; gone where they will be repeatedly harvested in the wild.
A dedicated (single role) crafter or harvester is of minor use. They can not fight. It is on the field that determination will be made. Combat is flat and weapon will not make much difference. Weapon in less than top end combatants will go tot the victor's side even if that fighter killed 3 before dying.
Don't even waste you DT on crafting or harvesting. It is better that the warriors harvest form the enemy.
(sorry for spelling, but that is not my skill -- figure it out!)
lam
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Goblin Squad Member
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Siege equipment, settlement defenses, personal offensive and defensive gear, potions...all things crafters bring to the table purely for PvP purposes.
If you think an army (offensive or defensive) will work better without these (or the top end of these) then I can only wish you good luck.
Also remember, there is gear decay in PFO, so things will need to be replaced on a regular basis - more so if you're an invading force throwing yourself against a stone wall whilst being shot with arrows and ballista bolts, and having boiling oil poured on your head.
Siege equipment, settlement defenses, personal offensive and defensive gear, potions...all things crafters bring to the table purely for PvP purposes.
If you think an army (offensive or defensive) will work better without these (or the top end of these) then I can only wish you good luck.
Also remember, there is gear decay in PFO, so things will need to be replaced on a regular basis - more so if you're an invading force throwing yourself against a stone wall whilst being shot with arrows and ballista bolts, and having boiling oil poured on your head.
Listen man, Lam never said "an army will work better without siege equipment, etc", there's no need to go putting words in people's mouths.
He was just pointing out that people who do crafting and nothing else aren't as viable as people who can craft but also get their hands dirty on the PvP front, or even the PvE front (I think). He also made some pretty good points about how alignments will affect how crafters will behave in settlements of those various alignments.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are many ways of making siege equipment. But it is only needed if crafters make walls. I do not expect that walls or siege equipment will require dedicated crafters. I suspect that the walls will not be built for most settlements. There will be few crafters and walls will be taken down by sappers, not siege equipment.
Sappers are warriors, not crafters. Anything a crafter can do can be taken or worked around. They are an expense most communities don't need. LG will have them and there rest will steal the technology!
Bend over and kiss.
lam
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know. I'll give Lam the benefit of the doubt, but phrases such as
Harvesting and crafting is of limited use.A dedicated (single role) crafter or harvester is of minor use.
Don't even waste you DT on crafting or harvesting.
make it sound like he thinks that crafting is of secondary importance and not worth it.
I'm simply trying to impart that without crafters, and most likely dedicated crafters, you potentially will not have access to many, many incredibly useful things within combat or within your settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are many ways of making siege equipment. But it is only needed if crafters make walls. I do not expect that walls or siege equipment will require dedicated crafters. I suspect that the walls will not be built for most settlements. There will be few crafters and walls will be taken down by sappers, not siege equipment.
Sappers are warriors, not crafters. Anything a crafter can do can be taken or worked around. They are an expense most communities don't need. LG will have them and there rest will steal the technology!
Bend over and kiss.
lam
It looks like we have a different philosophical view of how to be successful within the game. Time will tell I guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes crafters will be of limited use for combat PvP. PvP consists of far more then combat.
Might I add a little to that statement?
Yes crafters will be of limited use for direct combat PvP. PvP consists of far more then combat.
Basically, crafters will be very useful to outfit and equip those involved within direct combat while being entirely useless themselves.
Crafting is of secondary importance, that doesn't mean it's not important.