It could be possible for a state to transfer ownership of a property to a new owner based on paying taxes, but it is hard to see how the state would allow the transfer to occur with taxes still unpaid. After all, that's why they siezed the property in the first place.
I would probably have reversed the order here and had the party go earn the money to pay the taxes in full before transfering ownership.
Now that you've given them ownership, they are sort of stuck with a bill they may not have realized was part of the deal. That would give me some heartburn as a player, regardless of the amount.
Who is transferring ownership of the tower? Do they have an actual deed?
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they aren't really stuck, they can just walk away. My guess is they don't want to walk away. I'd say a whole tower to themselves is "outrageous for 4th level characters". So really I don't see the problem. Did they think they could keep a tower?
I suppose part of the problem is expectations that you may have setup. You can just explain "hey I didn't realize that 4th level chars having a tower is a little much, more than just having a long term room at an inn that you'd expect for your level, let's adjust things"
4700 GP is a huge sum of money (for non-adventurers), and I would work out a sum on a monthly basis instead of weekly. But, I have to agree with the above sentiments that you the GM are the bestower of treasure and can alleviate the worry.
I think a better solution would be for a wealthy patron to offer the settle the debt in exchange for a (highly dangerous) favor. Or, the people they owe the money to will forgive the debt in exchange for a (highly dangerous) favor.
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It could be possible for a state to transfer ownership of a property to a new owner based on paying taxes, but it is hard to see how the state would allow the transfer to occur with taxes still unpaid. After all, that's why they siezed the property in the first place.
I'd say its a great alternative to describing to the local enforcement what you did to get the tower.
Adventures: "We killed him! And like 30 henchmen. There was a dragon in the basement, tons of traps, the whole place caught on fire. Aww man, it was awesome! You should've been there. When we were done we decided to take all his stuff and we were like 'BRO! This tower. We should totally keep this!' and so we took the tower."
Officer: "Mmhmm... So... 4000 gold and we forget I just heard any of that."
Anyways, hard to discern the price of something. I don't know how much gold your actually giving them. Understandably if they're broke 4-6k gold could really hurt(one GM I had gave me 500 gold over 5 levels), but if they have 10k each by that level(which one of my GMs also did), then that's easy for even one person to pay.
I suppose you could ask them if they want to come up with an alternative solution to own the castle. Forgery to make paperwork of some sort, buttering up officials, offering their services(ADVENTURE!), or however they want to deal with it. That's really a large portion of the game is finding a good solution outside of what your given, at least I've always thought. Alternatively they can just skip out on their taxes and see what happens, but that's a good way to snowball into evil overlords. If its too expensive you might have them talk it down from 4k, or let them talk it over into the next month without rent. It might not be perfect, but that might at least make them less likely to complain for a bit.
If the tower is just for fun and provides no material benefit, it could be hard for them to choose it over magic items.
You could give them the opportunity to trick or rob the tax collector.
You could give them a way of making money out of the tower. For example, the deeds to the tower come with two hundred acres of good farming land, and there are peasants who are interested in renting it out as long as they feel defended by heroic adventurers.
You could put a treasure map in the tower, and throw them into a well-paying adventure before the first payment comes due.
It could be possible for a state to transfer ownership of a property to a new owner based on paying taxes, but it is hard to see how the state would allow the transfer to occur with taxes still unpaid. After all, that's why they siezed the property in the first place.
Yeah, this. If someone's house gets foreclosed upon, the next person to move in isn't on the hook for his late house payments.
The taxes seem a bit high. How much could this tower be sold for? How much would it cost to make a new tower?
If I was one of the PCs I think I would consider walking away and making no claims of ownership on the tower. It seems that's what the first owner of the tower thought.
For about 3gp/day an adventurer can have good lodging and dining at an Inn. If there are 4 PCs, that would be 4380 gp a year. While that comes out about the same, this includes meals being served to you, and servants to clean your room and draw your bath, a stable for your horse, etc. You can also pay as you go. And move to another Inn, whenever you choose.
If the PCs want to stay in the tower, can they work out a deal where they perform some task in order to get the taxes waived?
I agree with Lazar and Kimera; this is an opportunity. A rich benefactor could come along and offer to "cover" their debt with the state in return for the adventurers recovering an object, etc., or a local lord will make their tax debt "go away" in return for a series of adventures that is to his advantage. And so on.
if we miss a payment we accrue an additional 611gold payment on top of the one we miss
It really depends on the pace of your adventures. To a high level group, 611gp is nothing. If there is one payment per character level, that's annoying at first and trivial later on.
Also, in the current payment schedule, what's the penalty for never paying anything? You could just build up debt until it becomes moot. The worst they're likely to do is try to repossess your tower.
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The problem isn't with your PC's not accepting your way of robbing them of despereately needed wealth, it's you being unreasonable about it. The tower doesn't give them much to justify such a large expense. Unless they have an emotional investment in keeping the tower (making a home for orpahns, etc.), it's in their best interests not to keep it. If you want them to keep it, you need to give them a reason to do so. Luckily almost any reason can be a good excuse for a side trek adventure (an offer to forgive the tax debt for a favor or finding a convenient treasure map that shows a valut hidden in the catacombs of the tower, etc.) Think about it this way. If someone offered you a $100,000 car but you had to pay $30,000 in taxes to claim it, I bet you'd pass on it.
At this point, just change your mind and decide you don't want the tower. It's not worth it at all.
Maybe you give the chance for the pcs to realize that the tax collector is over charging, and really should only be charging 1000gp
1. It is completely realistic for the taxes to travel with the deed, especially if the original owner is unavailable. That's how things work in most of the western world even today - tax leans on property are attached to the title, not to the owner.
2. The amount seems high for taxation (unless he was like a decade behind), but on the whole it is a bargain for a tower.
3. I would provide other options for the party to repay, if they looked around / asked around a bit. Perhaps working a job for a wealthy patron, or perhaps cutting a deal with the tax collector.
4. The penalty for late payment seems excessive by a factor of about 10. Remember, generally speaking unless the taxing body has a reason to want to take possession of the tower and incur all upkeep expenses they'd probably rather have a taxpayer in it for the long haul in much the same way that a bank would rather have someone in a house than foreclose on it and sell it at a loss. This sort of ties into 3.
One word for the PCs: Negotiate.
Just because they're asking for 4700gp doesn't mean they won't accept less than 4700gp. Reasons:
1.) Real World collections agencies settle for far less all the time, and when large tax settlements come up in court, they can get settled for pennies on the dollar. Because getting SOME money is better than never getting ANY money.
2.) The PCs did not incur the tax in the first place. They only have to pay it if they want the property, which basically has a lien upon it. Since they are not liable, they can simply walk away, which puts them in a good position to negotiate.
3.) Assuming the property has been unoccupied for some time, it will be in need of repairs. The longer it goes unoccupied the less likely anyone will pay for it, and the more it will cost to fix it. It's literally a depreciating asset.
4.) Subtract the cost of clearing the tower of monsters from the taxation fee. Because generally you can't sell or tax a tower full of monsters. Good news; you get to set the fee yourself as part of negotiations.
Oh, needless to say, hire a good lawyer.
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Personally, I like the money pit approach.
The tower is reasonably usable, but make the high taxes due to an adventure hook.
Like when they ask 'Why 4,700gp?!' the answer can come 'the title to the tower includes the nearby mine which has an estimated yearly income of...'
Nevermind that the mine for various reasons isn't producing at the moment.
That way they have a reason to stick around, and a proactive direction to try to resolve it.
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So, if you have the characters paying 611 GP per week that isn't much by the rules (and if they really want the tower).
Pg 399 of the CRB shows that the characters, at any experience pace(slow, medium or fast), should earn at a minimum of 750 GP for one encounter at 4th level.
Your frequency of encounters could basically increase by "one per week" to help pay for the tower. That way they could earn their wealth-by-level and still pay for the tower. Some players might not buy into that logic, however.
I do like the idea of asking for (dangerous) favors to decrease the depth.
Also, I played in an adventure path where you worked to make a casino more profitable and every week you made some skill checks to see how how much profit was earned. You would get paid for this increase of profitability.
Just a thought, you be able to work some angle like that into your adventure and create some nice story hooks or side adventures.
50% property tax isn't a lot?
Whiny players--they could have walked away from the tower (which would have lined their pockets quite nicely), but they chose to stubbornly cling to the idea that they were entitled to it. The tower was on somebody else's land--yet they refused to pay for it. Even if they cleared it of dangerous monsters and/or bandits, they don't get to just keep it (unless of course it's in the middle of god-awful-no-where, which I'm assuming this one wasn't--considering the land was valuable enough to warrant taxes from the nobility).
If I were a PC here I'd tell them to keep arguing over taxes in character. Ive been in too many situations where the PCs try to bully the GM through rules-lawyering and complaining to try to get what they want rather than actually dealing with the problems.
Obvious solutions include;
1) Kill the tax collector. If this is a stupid tax then it's probably time to rebell. No taxation without representation!
2) Pay the taxes. Put ranks in a profession and get to work. Maybe there's a gold-hoarding evil guy nearby that needs to be defeated. A good sized dungeon will probably have enough treasure. (preferred method considering it requires more adventuring)
3) Who has ranks in Profession (lawyer)? lets legalize out of these taxes. Obviously it takes some corrupt bureaucratic nightmare to get taxes on one tower that high.
4) Plunder a nearby village, take it over and make them pay taxes. Considering how the tower was acquired this is obviously a kleptocracy so this would make the party lords under whoever collects the taxes.
5) Leave. Let the next sucker deal with taxes.
Wait, they actually left over the price of the tower? Something completely optional that they didn't need and could play without? Sounds like something else was going on there.
50% property tax isn't a lot?
Depends on the ruler and the official religion of the land. Smells like some Asmodian lawyers made up the tax code.
It sounds to me like you gave them plenty of options. In most games, owning massive property like a tower before level 9 is a huge deal, and 4700gp means they could easily sell off some under used magic items to cover the cost, or at least pay the first few weeks of the payment plan while they go on an adventure to get the rest.
Not to mention, the clear option was to just sell the thing for 10k. That puts them up on their wealth per level, and had no drawbacks what-so-ever, so for the players to be like "eff you we quit" is a bit much. I mean, would they have done the same thing if they'd found an epic level weapon with a massive curse on it? I'd hope not.
For players to quit a game over real estate that they don't really have a right to is a bit much, I'd find other players, or at least quit GMing for a while.
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50% property tax isn't a lot?
Actually, it might not be to horribly unreasonable. Bestowing a castle or keep on someone was a good way to keep down an up and coming vassal.
They were horribly expensive, required constant repair and upkeep, you are expected to live in a manner befitting your station, you had to be ready for any visit by the higher nobility (and had to entertain them as they expected at your cost), landowners had to supply troops and supplies to the crown, etc...
It was fairly common way to bankrupt a too popular underling.
Additionally, taxes were often set at whatever the tax collector thought he might be able to get out of the victim. Sometimes the tax collector was wrong and would drive the victim out of business.
Courtrooms and Judges seems less fun than Dungeons and Dragons.
YMMV.
In a world that has wizards and guys that shoot god-powered lazers, Courtrooms and Judges is never boring.
I object!
Its not fun if you don't use the appropriate macro
They 4700 gold was not a lot as compared to what the tower was actually worth. It was worth 9000 gold plus the 1000 gold for the land. So i figured 4700 gold isn't a lot.
You're wrong.
Modern property taxes tend to run around 1% of overall (market) value per annum, and that's to pay for things like roads, schools, police and fire services plus sewage and a bloated local bureaucracy full of overpaid, unionized employees (...oops, cynicism showing, sorry...). Farmland and the like gets taxed differently, I'm talking residential here.
IOW, a ton of stuff that the owner of the tower would not be getting. At all. In order to rack up a 47% of market value debt on the property in terms of taxation would take several decades at that rate (even with compound interest), and that begs the question as to WHY NOBODY HAS COLLECTED THE TAX in decades anyways.
Remember that while a tower has an attached value, it does not generate an income like a farm or a business. It's hard to justify a high tax rate on it when it's essentially a money pit.
At most you could expect a bill to run up to 1000gp before the owner is dispossessed for failure to pay his taxes. Unless, of course, the person the tax is owed to is unable to enforce his taxation regime.
In which case, why would the PCs pay up either?
Would you feel better if he called it a "fee" rather than a "tax"? I'm pretty sure it was intended to be a one time cost, not an annual thing.
No, I read the post, it's overdue taxes from the previous owner. That said, to accumulate 4700gp of overdue taxes on a 10000gp property would take a very large amount of time or a staggering tax rate.
In the first case, it begs the question why the taxes weren't collected before it reached that point - up to and including seizure of the property. In the second case, no-one could possibly afford to live in the tower at all without a massive annual income.
Now if this situation was handled realistically, the PCs have ZERO claim to the tower at all. Property laws are generally very well established in any 'civilized' society. Somebody has title to that property; it very well could be the local lord after the previous owner defaulted on the property. Just because they burst in and killed the occupants means nothing.
However, this also means that there is ZERO unpaid taxes on the property, because the local lord seized it as a means to recoup them. If it's a 10000gp property, the lord should sell them the property for 10000gp. Yes, that's more than 4700gp, but it's an actual value, not a BS tax.
Now, as to the repayment schedule, this is also bunk. 611gp/week for 10 weeks is 6110gp, that's a 30% interest rate on 4700gp on a repayment schedule that's 2 1/2 months long. That's 156% per annum interest rate, never mind the late penalty fees. For reference, current interest rates are hovering around 3% on mortgages - historically very low, but historically high rates hover around 20% IIRC.
So, this is how it should have gone down:
1.) The PCs can't claim the property in the first place.
2.) The local lord will sell them the property at retail value of 10000gp.
3.) The PCs go to a banker or wealthy merchant for a loan on 10000gp. The merchant calculates a 20% per annum interest rate, which the PCs will probably pay off in less than a year for about 12000gp.
4.) The local lord taxes the property at 1% of its base value to the tune of 100gp per year.
5.) Alternatively, the local lord will sell them the property for 4700gp b/c the heroes cleaned out the monsters. Go back to 3.) and calculate based on 4700gp rather than 10000gp.
No, I read the post, it's overdue taxes from the previous owner. That said, to accumulate 4700gp of overdue taxes on a 10000gp property would take a very large amount of time or a staggering tax rate.
In the first case, it begs the question why the taxes weren't collected before it reached that point - up to and including seizure of the property. In the second case, no-one could possibly afford to live in the tower at all without a massive annual income.
Now if this situation was handled realistically, the PCs have ZERO claim to the tower at all. Property laws are generally very well established in any 'civilized' society. Somebody has title to that property; it very well could be the local lord after the previous owner defaulted on the property. Just because they burst in and killed the occupants means nothing.
However, this also means that there is ZERO unpaid taxes on the property, because the local lord seized it as a means to recoup them. If it's a 10000gp property, the lord should sell them the property for 10000gp. Yes, that's more than 4700gp, but it's an actual value, not a BS tax.
Now, as to the repayment schedule, this is also bunk. 611gp/week for 10 weeks is 6110gp, that's a 30% interest rate on 4700gp on a repayment schedule that's 2 1/2 months long. That's 156% per annum interest rate, never mind the late penalty fees. For reference, current interest rates are hovering around 3% on mortgages - historically very low, but historically high rates hover around 20% IIRC.
So, this is how it should have gone down:
1.) The PCs can't claim the property in the first place.
2.) The local lord will sell them the property at retail value of 10000gp.
3.) The PCs go to a banker or wealthy merchant for a loan on 10000gp. The merchant calculates a 20% per annum interest rate, which the PCs will probably pay off in less than a year for about 12000gp.
4.) The local lord taxes the property at 1% of its base value to the tune of 100gp per year.
5.) Alternatively, the local lord will sell them...
This is assuming that whoever is collecting taxes is normal, as opposed to an Antipaladin or something.
"Dear Players,
I agree with you that the price of taxes is too high, and the policy of the lord in forcing you to pay holdover taxes from your predecessor is ludicrous. However, that is this lord's foolish policy. You can choose to pay it, or you can make an enemy of this lord. Perhaps you should consider paying it while you bide your time and plan to depose this tyrant? It will not be easy. Or you could do what real people do, and shoulder the unfair tax burden and satisfy yourself with what you have.
Either way, I'll run the game for you.
Love,
Your GM"
Helic, you're getting hung up on the issue of taxes. The fact remains that a tower has a price, and the players had a choice: purchase a discounted tower (by paying off the taxes) or sell the deed for a profit. The end result would be that they have property or wealth. In either case, it's a reward (not a punishment, as the players made it out to be).
Helic, you're getting hung up on the issue of taxes. The fact remains that a tower has a price, and the players had a choice: purchase a discounted tower (by paying off the taxes) or sell the deed for a profit. The end result would be that they have property or wealth. In either case, it's a reward (not a punishment, as the players made it out to be).
I'm hung up on things not making any rational sense.
First, the OP seems to have a shaky grasp of what a deed is. They can sell the deed for 10,000gp? That makes no sense. Deeds are just pieces of paper that state that legal authorities recognize that the PERSON NAMED on the deed is the owner of the property, usually along with the definition of the property's boundaries.
Who's name is on the deed? Not the Player's, I'll bet (it could happen with a little forgery). So selling the deed isn't an option. It belongs to the dead guy, and barring that, the dead guy's heirs. Assuming the dead guy has NO heirs at all, usually the state gets the stuff.
So who owns the property? Not the PCs. It's either some random nephew or it's the local lord. If it's the local lord, he can sell the property to them at 10000gp, 6110gp, 4700gp, it doesn't matter. The players can either pay that price or not, but selling the deed should never have been an option.
Because if it IS an option, that means that when somebody drops dead, whoever grabs the deed first is now the owner. Not saying that can't happen in a fantasy world, but I'm fairly sure the OP doesn't mean his world to run that way.
IN THEORY, mind you, the players could seek out the actual heir and sell him the deed, which is proof that his ancestor owned the property, which would allow him to claim it as is his right. This would not be for 10000gp, however, as that would not make sense either (paying full value for your inheritance means it's not really an inheritance). With a 4700gp lien on the property, the heir is likely to pass up buying the deed in most cases (due to lack of available funds to pay the lien).
Sometimes people run games without investing a whole lot of time and research into property taxes. You know, because they wanna blow off some steam and have some fun :P
Any player that can't understand that is probably taking the game a bit too seriously.