God I hope I got complement right.
Anyway, we have a brand new P&PRPG player join our table next week, and we're not really sure what she'd be good playing as.
She's very smart so I've got confidence she'll grasp the rules quick enough, but are there any classes that are simple enough for a complete newbie that are still really fun to play?
The other members are a Monk of the Empty Hand, a Ranger, a Sword Saint Samurai and a Cleric. Cleric will be a good battle mage but will still be their healer.
Do you know of any classes that will work well with these others, while still being really fun and quick to grasp?
Thanks from me (la GM) and her!
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Best way to compliment the party and teach her some basics would be a sorcerer me thinks, and help her out with her spell selection to make sure she is contributing to the groups needs.
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Show her some concepts (big burly armored warrior, sneaky agile blade master, knowledgeable caster, wise and faithful priest) and then give her a look at the classes that fit into that. Really, just start feeling out what "bigger idea" she wants to play and find the class that fits best. You being the GM can make any group comp work, so don't worry about making a "complement". It's better if she actually wants to play her character.
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Easiest and most complementary to that group is probably sorceror. Just help her with spell choice and then print her out spell cards (thegm.org if you arent aware of the card generator). From there it should be fairly easy to grasp a sorceror and the party is in need of an arcane caster.
Bard will help complement (and even compliment!) the party, as you have a ton of people who will love the buffs. It's also a (limited) arcane caster which you lack, a knowledge/skill monkey/face character which you lack, and can be completely customized to do just about any second role for any player anytime.
I now realize that I englished bad earlier, whoops.
The bard and sorcerer ideas are pretty solid ones. I agree with either of these as general suggestions.
The point of her creating a character she would enjoy playing is also a good, strong point. But if she's willing to go with your suggestions, those are pretty solid.
Sorcerer is somewhat simpler, as a bard has lots of "fiddly bits". Of course spells have lots of "fiddly bits" and sorcerers have more of those, so... :)
In general, I´d like to describe the various archetypes to her and see what kind of a character she wants to play. Pointing her towards a sorcerer can´t hurt, though, since the party can use some arcane "muscle" - bards are great, but might be a bit hard for a new person.
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I always focus on letting a new player create the character they want to play. You want to hook them on the game, so let them play their favorite character type. I would steer a player from there toward something that was easier to play, but first and foremost I want to excite the player's imagination.
I always focus on letting a new player create the character they want to play. You want to hook them on the game, so let them play their favorite character type. I would steer a player from there toward something that was easier to play, but first and foremost I want to excite the player's imagination.
I agree with the lady wearing the crown. And it seems like you have a decently balanced party so you would be fine with her picking any class she might find fun.
I do also agree that a Flame Elemental bloodline sorcerer would be a great compliment. I say flame because let's be honest, if you don't enjoy senseless immolation there is just no joy in your life.
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If she's smart and cares about learning how to play, then let her play whatever she wants to since she'll be interested enough to learn. Just lay them out in categories or with brief descriptions and let her ask questions until she figures out which one.
Thank you guys, we both really appreciate this!
However, I think a spanner has been thrown into the works... The monk has said he doesn't think he'll be able to do it, so it would be unfair of him to stay in the group when he'll have to keep cancelling, which is a pretty big thing to do. :3
So, does having no monk change things?
I kinda disagree with Sorcerer because they get focused down and are critically pivotal on their spell selections (as you can't swap them out). On the plus side having spontaneous is pretty awesome, still I'd lean more towards divine casters being easier to pickup and play as they can make easy changes to bad spell selections.
Really it's up to the player to decide, I think it's wrong make a choice for a player and force them to play something.
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Sorceror is easier to play, but leveling is harder without experience.
the group should help a new player with spell selection. Note, I said "help". Find out what sorts of things the players would like to be able to do, and then find spells that approximate that as much as possible - being sure to p0oint out any flaws or weaknesses as you go.
But as play is so much easier, the player can get a good feel for play without needing a lot of assistance. :)
You may want to look at this thread. For ideas on how to help a new player. It was specifically for PFS, but really applies to home games also.
I always focus on letting a new player create the character they want to play. You want to hook them on the game, so let them play their favorite character type. I would steer a player from there toward something that was easier to play, but first and foremost I want to excite the player's imagination.
I agree totally with letting the player play what they want. Balance is nice, but players playing what they want is the best. If that results in balance so be it.
Recently what we started doing is giving newbies an NPC the first session or two. Give them a tank with a good chance to hit, and do decent damage. Then if they go wow I like this, they will have seen a session or two, and have some idea of what they want to run.
Playing a base melee type usually gets a newbie more engaged in combat earlier, so you avoid them getting stuck on the sidelines not really knowing what to do. It also avoids them picking something, and then not liking it. Also from a party persepctive if they don't come back then you're just missing the extra fighter, or it's back to being the party NPC.
For the new player it gets them in quick, gives them an easy way to understand whats going on, and a better view of what their options might be. Having gotten a taste and some understanding it makes the long character creation process a better experience.
Good advice everyone once again. :)))
Ranger will be ranged, not melee, just asked him. That changed anything, esteemed adventures?
a Ranger focusing on ranged attacks, a Sword Saint Samurai and a Cleric (a good battle mage but will still be their healer).
1) remember, go with what she wants!
2) the ranger can play a powerful switch-hitter (if he wants) [ranged and some skills covered]
3) you have a sword-saint [melee covered? I'm guessing, as I'm not too familiar with the sword-saint]
4) cleric with a "battle mage" focus (I'm guessing this means the ceric will be a decent combatant with both magic and melee?)
5) that pretty much means arcane magic, skills, and maybe secondary healing as the "missing elements"
A bard covers all of your missing elements, although it's a little bit of a steep learning curve to remember everything and a sorcerer covers the arcane side better.
(Also, if you're not (or she's not) afraid of the barest hint of cheesiness, when she eventually gains the ability to cast 3rd level spells, if she's a half-elf sorcerer, she can grab Paragon Surge, which, since it gives you a feat for a few minutes, means you can take Expanded Arcana, which gives you one (or two) new spells for the duration of Paragon Surge. Note, though, that this has a substantial opportunity cost in terms of spending two spell slots and at least one standard action in order to cast a spell not on your list, somewhat limiting it's power. If you're not afraid of cheesiness and you're okay with tweaking things, you could permit that with a different race, as the GM, though I'd be more cautious about this. It's not recommended right off the bat, though. Too many options can, again, be overwhelming.)
So, to sum up, a Bard fits most of your needs perfectly, a Sorcerer is easier to play and fills one of your needs much better. Those could be decent recommendations, if she's interested in that kind of character. If she's not, don't worry about it. Tailor whatever you're running for your group instead.
EDIT: I want to be clear on the Paragon Surge thing.
I don't recommend it for her to start with it. It's simply too much.
However, if she goes with sorcerer and, for whatever reason, as you level, you find she needs more utility spells than she has, that's the perfect use of Paragon Surge.
If your people are the type to overly optimize and "ruin your game" (whatever that means - different people have different tolerance limits), than I don't recommend it at all.
The recommendation is based only on the idea that, eventually (by level six) a sorcerer can be a decent switch-out for a skilled character by choosing the appropriate spells (like knock, fly, or similar things) when using Paragon Surge. She should generally keep "any time use" spells available, and utilize Paragon Surge only when she needs to.
ALSO worth noting, is its abuses are substantially lessened if you limit the options of things like wands.
Some people on these forums hate the very idea of a sorcerer who can grab any spell. I don't. I think the limits on it are fine. And, in play, that's how it's worked out for me. Know your group, though, and their tendencies, before introducing the idea to her.
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Bards are actually complicated to play. They require quite a lot of system skill to know about when to buff, when to sing and what (archery) feats to take. In such a martial group, a Bard would be loved, but they are not easy to do well.
I strongly advocate Sorcerer, even with the Monk leaving.
Talk her through a few cool bloodlines (elemental ones are flavourful, easy to explain and not weak), advise her on a few spells and voila.
The high Cha and Bluff will mean that this girl, who you say is a smart person can use her guile to get along out of combat too.
Pick for her the standard Sorcerer spells. As a new player, one wants the cool stuff, and frankly, the cool stuff is completely fine. Fireball, Fly, Invisibility, Mage Hand, Grease, Shield - they may be obvious, but a new player likes obvious and besides, they are good spells. Revel in it. Bards have to worry about how many performance rounds they have, whether there will be enough round economy to cast Haste, the relative merits of Glibness over Charm Person.
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@OP - What level are they starting at? Certain sets of mechanics can be pretty intimidating if you jump in at a higher level as opposed to settling in from first.
I would suggest introducing her to the Witch. Choosing a patron will help her develop an idea of what her character will be like and familiars make for great roleplay. As a prepared arcane caster the witch complements the other characters nicely and hexes give her something interesting to play with at lower levels. Finally, since she's INT based she'll have plenty of skill ranks to throw around and will rock at knowledge checks (a weak point in this party).
Shown her this topic and she likes the ideas of sorcerers and witches, so on Wednesday I'm going to properly talk her through each to help her decide. Really can't thank you all enough, you've really helped us.
@Hunphrey Boggard Level 3. Thanks a lot for the final witch suggestion, it really does seem awesome!
Cheers! Yeah I definitely will, I told her I'll happily arrange a dramatic, ah, "mishap" is she falls out of love with her character.
Thanks! I pride myself on making my grammar as perfect as possible, so making that type of mistake is always a bit embarrassing haha!
Well I would usually avoid any full caster for a first timer, but if that option is open (sorcerer), then I would let her take a look at the fluff behind each class/race.
If she knows fantasy books/shows/movies then she likely already knows a few of the tropes available in a fantasy game. The real hurdle for a new player in Pathfinder is that character optimization requires a high degree of system mastery. As long as you help to realize a concept from the character build perspective, things get much easier.
I tend to write up character maps to show when to take what feat so they can get a hold of why I thought build X was good at their particular level and so they can understand where they are going as a character.
Full casters are obviously the most difficult because they have the most options, but spontaneous casters are much easier than, say, a cleric who has full access to the entire list every day.
Shown her this topic and she likes the ideas of sorcerers and witches, so on Wednesday I'm going to properly talk her through each to help her decide. Really can't thank you all enough, you've really helped us.
@Hunphrey Boggard Level 3. Thanks a lot for the final witch suggestion, it really does seem awesome!
A Witch would actually be a great idea. Her Hexes would be a nice baseline, something she can get comfortable using while she learns the ins and outs of spell preparation (and I hate prepared casters).