Just outta curiosity, is it PFS legal? I thought I read someone saying it is, but that was an old-ish thread.
It should be provided you are a Half-Elf as IIRC, the PFS ruling is that you must be the required race to use it, though I'm sure someone will cite the specific version of that shortly.
Well, I am an Aasimar, that gone through needed shenanigans to be considered a half elf, through virtue of Racial Heritage.
While I wont use it in PFS, I just think if I show a GM of nine that it is PFS legal, then there'd be a good chance he allows it, since he goes by the rule "if its 1st party, its allowed"
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Ah that would not be PFS legal then as the PFS specific rule is:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed.
Thus, Racial Heritage through Scion of Humanity wouldn't help in PFS play though Paragon Surge oracle itself is fine provided its a half-elf:
"...all half-elven equipment, magic items, and spells are legal for play;
all half-elven feats except Half-Drow Paragon are legal for play."
However, Scion of Humanity Aasimars with Racial Heritage would qualify in regular Pathfinder play and the all material is from Pathfinder sources, so you may be good anyway as the above rule is PFS specific.
Ahh... So it would be 100% legal if the game rules are "Any 1st party stuff"
While its true enough that a Scion of Humanity Aasimar with Racial Heritage Half-Elf would count as a Half-Elf and qualify for Paragon Surge, the useful bit of using it to get additional spells (whether Sorcerer or Oracle) is dubious at best.
Why dubious? Every time I seen people talk about it, it was never a point of contention. You get 1 feat, for a very short time. You can use that feat to get a spell. Seems simple enough.
Why dubious? Every time I seen people talk about it, it was never a point of contention. You get 1 feat, for a very short time. You can use that feat to get a spell. Seems simple enough.
Well, because its reeks of limburger.
Edit: I will expand on that for you. Why is it cheesy? Because Oracles and Sorcerer have a set amount of spells known that they are allowed to possess. With this spell they effectively can gain access to any spell at any time that they need it, by simply casting paragon surge. To make it even better, these people then purchase wands of it. Do you really think with items like Page of Spell Knowledge that the designers really intended for this to work?
I think the answer is resounding, hell no.
Double Edit: Here are three threads where people all mention that no smart GM would allow this exact shenanigans, 1, 2, 3.
Well, its OBVIOUSLY very very strong. But it IS RAW legal right? Thats the only real question. I am not underestimating it's power, just checking if its actually RAW legal.
Don't use the argument of "It's RAW so it's absolutely without question the way it should be".
RAW also never says that dead people can't take action.
I am not asking if a SANE GM will allow it. I am simply asking if it is RAW legal. Some games are played ONLY by RAW. I think PFS is one such game. From what I heard, GM's in PFS have to go by strict RAW.
So my ONLY question is whether it works by RAW.
Edit: So once again. Its not about smart GM's or the such. Imagine the GM is a machine that only knows RAW and only runs by raw with no plugins allowed. Would the thing work?
Then you'd be best to repost you question under the Pathfinder Society specific forum and ask if the way in which you intend to use the spell is allowed.
Well, as i said. Its not for PFS game, so I dont wanna clutter their forums. Its just about the scenario in which the game is run 100% by RAW, with no GM fiats (well, there are SOME fiats in my game, but I think the 2 main ones are 1) No leadership and 2) No drow noble. EVERYTHING that ISNT banned is allowed. Anything)
Down this road lies Pun-Pun.
Im well aware.
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There's really no ambiguity, yes Paragon Surge allows you to get any spell off your list. And honestly while the writer may not have intended that in particular, they certainly intended to snag metamagic feats, spell focus as needed, etc. Sure they may not have intended quite that, but they surely considered what giving a feat temporarily meant.
There's really no ambiguity, yes Paragon Surge allows you to get any spell off your list. And honestly while the writer may not have intended that in particular, they certainly intended to snag metamagic feats, spell focus as needed, etc. Sure they may not have intended quite that, but they surely considered what giving a feat temporarily meant.
Thank you very much. Thats what I was looking for. Not being told things I already know, but answering my one question! ♥
If the GM lets you do it, it's not cheating.
You read my mind
Just because a GM isn't wise enough to stop you from doing something doesn't mean you should take advantage of it.
Just because a GM isn't wise enough to stop you from
doing something doesn't mean you should take advantage of it.
I know right? Damn people always collecting $200 when they pass GO in Monopoly, cheesing the system. They should have to earn it from rent like everyone else!
I am not asking if a SANE GM will allow it. I am simply asking if it is RAW legal. Some games are played ONLY by RAW.There is no such animal. I don't care what kind of campaign you're in, you're going to have an occasion where a GM will have to make a ruling... and interpretation. Then you're in house rule territory along with the rest of us.... even in PFS.
Wait, you are saying this is a houserule? Or that there's no such thing as a game without houserules?
Just because a GM isn't wise enough to stop you from doing something doesn't mean you should take advantage of it.
Special kinda game. In it, it is ran by RAW, with minimal houseruling.
There are better ways to use it than gain spells, though... Extra revelation, for one.
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Well the best way to use it is to get what feat you need when you need it. Like I said in my post up thread, metamagic feats can be excellent choices, obviously Eldritch Heritage is another good pick, and as Bardess stated, Extra Revelation can be awesome. But really, if you need an extra + to a skill check, even the Skill Focuses can be great. Really its very versatile.
And with surge, I still can only get things on default cleric and wizard lists. So any arcane and divine spells not on those lists are a nono? Because Druids have some nice stuff, but the damn things are druid only it seems >_<
And another question. When I use the spell, I am locked in to that bonus spell for the duration right? And I dont think I can cast it again to get another feat correct?
And another question. When I use the spell, I am locked in to that bonus spell for the duration right? And I dont think I can cast it again to get another feat correct?
1) You're locked into the bonus feat for the duration of the spell. If you use it for Expanded Arcana, then yes, you're limited to those one or two spells.
2) When looking at Paragon Surge, it seems that you can cast it more than once (as with any spell), although at most the only benefit you'd gain is the feat (at least from my reading):
For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.
As the dexterity increase is an enhancement, it won't stack with itself, but multiple uses of Paragon sure can be read as either allowing you any one feat per casting of the spell...
a) ... such that each time you cast you select a feat. (Allowing you multiple temporary feats.)or
b) ... such that for the duration of the first concurrent spell. (Allowing you only one additional feat chosen "now" and each time it's cast without ending first*, it functions as a kind of "increase the duration" thing instead of a different casting of the spell.)
or
c) ... such that for the duration of the first concurrent spell. (Allowing you only one additional feat chosen "now" and each time it's cast without ending first*, it has no apparent effect until the first one you cast ends*.)
Those all seem to be equally valid wordings of the spell. English is funny that way. (Fun fact: infernal is secretly a slightly-more-flexible version of English!**)
* Either by running out of time or being dispelled, for example.
** Not really. I think. :)
EDIT:
And with surge, I still can only get things on default cleric and wizard lists. So any arcane and divine spells not on those lists are a nono? Because Druids have some nice stuff, but the damn things are druid only it seems >_<
This is pretty directly answered, even in your own post but:
You cannot choose a spell from any spellcasting class other than your own with Expanded Arcana (which is the only feat, as far as I know, that allows you to gain an additional spell known).
... 2) When looking at Paragon Surge, it seems that you can cast it more than once (as with any spell)...
Reread the rules regarding transmutation, polymorph.
Reread the rules regarding transmutation, polymorph.
... 2) When looking at Paragon Surge, it seems that you can cast it more than once (as with any spell)...
Ah! Thanks!
Found here for the curious.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Bolded part is relevant.
Well, main question is, if I cast it again, what happens?
1) Another feat, allowing me to stack feats
2) Feat gets replaced, allowing me to get a new one every round If i wanted to.
3) Nothing!
not only can you paragon surge as an aasimar, but with nature mystery, you can have an animal companion of (oracle level+ 1/2 oracle level +[character level -3] +ways to get more). also take celestial companion.
Ohh... Looks fun. Also, celestial companion you say? (That the Celestial Servant feat thing?)
Also, reading the nature mystery, it doesnt say anything about -3. And it seems I can only get a horse or camel... Maybe im looking in the wrong spot?
Well, main question is, if I cast it again, what happens?
1) Another feat, allowing me to stack feats
2) Feat gets replaced, allowing me to get a new one every round If i wanted to.
3) Nothing!Ohh... Looks fun. Also, celestial companion you say? Whats that? :Dnot only can you paragon surge as an aasimar, but with nature mystery, you can have an animal companion of (oracle level+ 1/2 oracle level +[character level -3] +ways to get more). also take celestial companion.
Answer: two or three. It's you're option each time, according to the part I quoted.
I see. So I can cast any spell I can get with the feat, using one round in between to "reload"
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(Re)Read through the spell rules in the CRB and the ARG. There's nothing tricky about the spell (contentious yes, tricky no). Opinions of people aside, it does exactly what it says it does in the exact way the book describes it.
(Re)Read through the spell rules in the CRB and the ARG. There's nothing tricky about the spell (contentious yes, tricky no). Opinions of people aside, it does exactly what it says it does in the exact way the book describes it.
For me, I just forgot that particular line (which, if I recall correctly - though I may not - is different from 3.5, right?*). It's interesting that they made Paragon Surge a polymorph effect instead of a more general transmutation. It's a neat little balancing feature they put into it that I'd just forgotten about.
One interesting thing, however, is that this seems to mean that if you're under a Paragon Surge effect, it seems like you may be effectively immune to things like, say, baleful polymorph (as you get to choose whether or not another polymorph spell affects you):
If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.
That makes it more powerful in that way than I would have guessed, even as the other element is more balanced. I doubt that was the intent, though.
* As I recall, polymorph effects were purely governed by the idea of overlapping similar effects in that edition. I may be forgetting, though.
Now I wonder, Can I use the gained spell to make a magic item?
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SANE GM will allow it. I am simply asking if it is RAW legal. From what I heard, GM's in PFS have to go by strict RAW.
Whether or not you think it is RAW legal or the GM does, until it is addressed in Errata or FAQ the PFS GM gets to choose what the RAW is and can block your PC from working the way you design.
So if you plan on using this for PFS, be prepared for table variance and you won't have anything that can be done.
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SANE GM will allow it. I am simply asking if it is RAW legal. From what I heard, GM's in PFS have to go by strict RAW.Whether or not you think it is RAW legal or the GM does, until it is addressed in Errata or FAQ the PFS GM gets to choose what the RAW is and can block your PC from working the way you design.
So if you plan on using this for PFS, be prepared for table variance and you won't have anything that can be done.
My understanding of this rule is that the GM is still required to allow anything within legal sources provided the player can provide the additional sources and it is not errataed or FAQed.
A gm in a public venue has to accept a player at the table (provided this is the ONLY issue) and cannot turn down a player simply because the GM finds the concept cheesey or unbalanced or they simply don't like the concept.
Expect table variation is an acknowledgement to players and GMs that GMs can and do interpret rules differently. For example, my PC with profession:chef asks if he can use his skill to put out fires because he is used to putting out kitchen fires. One GM says yes, another says no.
Both are right, and said player can't say "well the other GM let me do it."
A GM who tells a player they cannot play a character because there is something they don't like about said character or proceeds to punish such character or player in game has crossed a line and should be reported the local VO for a conversation.
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My understanding of this rule is that the GM is still required to allow anything within legal sources provided the player can provide the additional sources and it is not errataed or FAQed.GM may not
contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this document, a published Pathfinder Roleplaying Game source, errata document, or official FAQ ... Scenarios are meant to be run as written, with no addition or subtraction to number of monster ... However ... changing these would provide a more enjoyable play experience.
In short, don’t be a jerk.
If a player comes to my table, explains his rules interpretation and I disagree. Then he can't use that rule in that way. Sometimes this would invalidate the whole character (like a character taking two conflicting Archetypes or retraining into a level 6 character with all PrC levels.)
Part of the player's responsibility is "don’t be a jerk" which means accept it and find a different character to play.
As for running with "RAW", the guide makes it very clear the DM has freedom to rule the way he sees the rules so long as there isn't a relevant errata or FAQ to conflict. The fact that we may read the same line and come to two different interpretations is immaterial. The only correct rules interpretation is the DM's.
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My understanding of this rule is that the GM is still required to allow anything within legal sources provided the player can provide the additional sources and it is not errataed or FAQed.GM may not.
If a player comes to my table, explains his rules interpretation and I disagree. Then he can't use that rule in that way. Sometimes this would invalidate the whole character (like a character taking two conflicting Archetypes or retraining into a level 6 character with all PrC levels.)If the player is outside the rules as you describe, they need to bring another character. This has not been a problem in my area. If it has been a problem for you then the that may explain our differing attitudes.
If on the other hand, player is using a character which is using the intimidate rules and the GM isn't familar with them because he's never used them, and the player is prepared with said rules, then they should be able to play.
Part of the player's responsibility is "don’t be a jerk" which means accept it and find a different character to play.If the character is illegal, yes.
If it has a concept the GM doesn't like, for example, husband and wife summoner/eidolon, that is the GM's problem, not the player's. It is as much the GM's job not to be a jerk as the player's.
How do you know said GM is a jerk? He gets known for his 'unique' rulings and pretty soon said GM is without players, word goes to the VO's or coordinators and they have a little talk. This is how some GMs just happen to stop being booked as GMs.
I know people who this has happened to.
As for running with "RAW", the guide makes it very clear the DM has freedom to rule the way he sees the rules so long as there isn't a relevant errata or FAQ to conflict.Agreed, GM has the right to rule as they see fit.
What they don't have the right to do is rule a summoner shouldn't be at their table or an Oracle using Paragon Surge can't be at their table (provided they're a half elf and everything else is in order) because they don't like said flavor of cheese. Both those characters are perfectly legal provided they have the proper additional materials.
Availible resources, errata, FAQ etc exist to provide the information in advance to players as to what is legal and what is not. Their very existence are what govern this desicion.
A GM who rules otherwise is violating FAQ, errata etc, just by saying 'we don't like your cheese here, not at my table' provided everything is nice and legal.
You seemed(?) to imply a GM may kick out a character simply because they didn't like the said flavor of cheese the player is bringing. If I am wrong, chalk that up interptations being lost in the internet.
The fact that we may read the same line and come to two different interpretations is immaterial. The only correct rules interpretation is the DM's.Agreed, at that table and that game. But a good GM will then look said rule up and familarize themselves with said rules for future reference, for example, the next week when the same player is coming again.
While this isn't explicitly mandated, doing your best to look at RAW and (secondly) RAI and adhere to as close as possible is the difference between being a welcoming enviroment with lots of new players and a growing community rather than being closed off clique with the same members week after week.
I know of cities which are both.
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Wasn't this in the Rules Forum? Why did it get moved? The OP made clear it's not for PFS.Somehow it wasn't clear to me. Especially since the OP asked if it was PFS legal.
The OP wants to know if an Aasimar taking Racial Heritage to get access to Paragon Surge is RAW legal. It is. It's just not allowed in PFS.
In the 3rd post of this thread he clarifies that his question is not for PFS, just RAW.
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Well, main question is, if I cast it again, what happens?
1) Another feat, allowing me to stack feats
2) Feat gets replaced, allowing me to get a new one every round If i wanted to.
3) Nothing!not only can you paragon surge as an aasimar, but with nature mystery, you can have an animal companion of (oracle level+ 1/2 oracle level +[character level -3] +ways to get more). also take celestial companion.
Ohh... Looks fun. Also, celestial companion you say? (That the Celestial Servant feat thing?)
Also, reading the nature mystery, it doesnt say anything about -3. And it seems I can only get a horse or camel... Maybe im looking in the wrong spot?
the feats natures soul and animal ally. take those before the revelation to grant AC at level -3, it stacks with the 1/2 level from favored class and the revelation mystery. level + 1/2 level + level-3.
but i forgot this is a pfs thread. in pfs, you cant get paragon surge on an aasimar because of the ARG rider of "must be the race to pick the spells". in a home game the aasimar counted as human counted as half elf is completely legit, but in pfs racial heritage is kinda useless. but you can do it all as a hal elf, now that half races can pick their own favored clas bonuses, or those of both parent races (half elves can pick half elf, elf, or human favored class bonuses now)
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You seemed(?) to imply a GM may kick out a character simply because they didn't like the said flavor of cheese the player is bringing. If I am wrong, chalk that up interptations being lost in the internet.
Let us chalk it up to text medium. At no point did I imply they would be ejected from the table, just that their rules interpretation wouldn't be allowed. If that means they have a character that is illegal (like if they combine two Archetypes that can't be combined) they wouldn't have a legal character and would need to play another. Unless you advocate allowing a 1st level Paladin to come to the table with a Holy Avenger (likewise illegal.) At which point, I've got nothing to say.
As for as being unfamiliar with a rule, that can happen. I don't know every section of every book, but I am a very quick study. I have often had players using new combinations come to a table. It is generally never a problem.
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You seemed(?) to imply a GM may kick out a character simply because they didn't like the said flavor of cheese the player is bringing. If I am wrong, chalk that up interptations being lost in the internet.Let us chalk it up to text medium. At no point did I imply they would be ejected from the table, just that their rules interpretation wouldn't be allowed. If that means they have a character that is illegal (like if they combine two Archetypes that can't be combined) they wouldn't have a legal character and would need to play another. Unless you advocate allowing a 1st level Paladin to come to the table with a Holy Avenger (likewise illegal.) At which point, I've got nothing to say.
As for as being unfamiliar with a rule, that can happen. I don't know every section of every book, but I am a very quick study. I have often had players using new combinations come to a table. It is generally never a problem.
Very cool.