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So, I was looking at the Treesinger druid Archetype for lolz. I noticed something a bit odd. The carnivorous flower says that it can rage 1/day for 6 rounds, as the barbarian class feature.
Except, being of the plant type, they are immune to morale effects: EG: rage. So they can... do what, exactly? Nowhere in the entry does it say that the flower is susceptable to morale effects, which rules it out in my mind as a case of special exemption. If it IS an exemption, does that mean the flower is suceptible to things like fear as well?
Now lets say that just for lolz I didn't take the flower and took say, the Treeant instead. Lets further suppose I multiclass into barbarian and take frenzied companion. Can I get a raging tree? Because I'm not gonna lie that sounds pretty awesome.
I also found this thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ptdg?Carnivorous-Flower-Companion
which talks about the same. They seemed to imply that the plant companion is vulnerable to mind effects because it has an INT score? That seems a bit odd to me as it still has the plant type. But it would let me have my raging tree, which is fine by me. Is this the case?
i would rule that the plants form of rage is not morale
but i would probably allow you as a player to have a raging tree(WOODEN TOOTHPICKS YOU MONSTER) but tree would lose the "immune to morale effects"
The thing is that the rage effect is *clearly* morale...
I have to say, the more I think about the "conclusion" on the other thread the more rediculous it seems. Plants creatures that are not mindless still have the plant type, and they still have plant traits.
Take the Shambling Mound, for instance. Nowhere does it say it loses it's ability to be immune to mind affecting abilities, it lists plant traits under its defenses. Yet it is intelligent.
checked the prd there does not seem to be errata so its between you and your DM but there is going to be some hand waving one way or the other
Because rage in 3.5 was untyped. In pathfinder its morale. Some people forget it.
Ether make plant not immune to morale as it is not mindless anymore or make Floral Rage that gives untyped bonuses.
I will need a reference to where it says that morale bonuses are mind-affecting effects, before i can comment on this, because neither does the plant trait mention morale bonuses as mind-affecting effects, nor does the explanation of morale mention mind-affecting. It only says INT 0 or - creatures don't gain morale bonuses, but that's not the same as immune to mind-affecting.
the PRD its a thing....
I swear i read that three times and i never spotted the "morale effects" in there.
My bad.
In that case I advise to simply make an exception as it was clearly a design oversight.
I am not sure morale bonuses and morale effects are the same thing. I would say "morale effects" deals with fear and related conditions...
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Oh come on, nobody wants to say it?
Treesinger is poorly written. The writer/editor did not consider plant immunities when it was created. Plants are also immune to polymorph effects, which removes a huge number of potential buffs from the druid's list.
It's clearly a sloppy mistake and the fact that the plant has rage means it was intended to be able to use that rage, and it has share spells, so it was intended to have spells shared with it.
In PFS, well, you're screwed. In a real game, a reasonable GM will accommodate you.
Oh come on, nobody wants to say it?
Treesinger is poorly written. The writer/editor did not consider plant immunities when it was created. Plants are also immune to polymorph effects, which removes a huge number of potential buffs from the druid's list.
It's clearly a sloppy mistake and the fact that the plant has rage means it was intended to be able to use that rage, and it has share spells, so it was intended to have spells shared with it.
In PFS, well, you're screwed. In a real game, a reasonable GM will accommodate you.
I did.
In that case I advise to simply make an exception as it was clearly a design oversight.
I just decided not to bash what i consider a small oversight into the ground as much as you deemed it necessary.
Also druid buffs are rarely polymorph effects.
@mplindustries
pretty sure that "dont be a jerk" rule apples to the writer as well
the Polymorph spells is not that big of a bust on druid's spells maybe if it was wizards
Generally, I would also say this falls under the "specific beats general" provision. The flower is specifically stated to be able to rage. Generally, plants can't be affected by morale effects. Specific is more important.
Generally, I would also say this falls under the "specific beats general" provision. The flower is specifically stated to be able to rage. Generally, plants can't be affected by morale effects. Specific is more important.
While I agree that the plant should be able to benefit from its own rage, i have to adress this particular post: Nothing in the plant traits say the plant isn't able to rage. It can begin and end its rage just fine, since rage itself is not a morale effect. Only the effects of the rage are morale bonuses. So theoretically the plant would enter rage successfully but only incur the inability to use Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration, the armor class penalty and the fatigue afterwards.
Again, an effect is not nearly the same thing as a bonus. Looking through the plant immunities, I don't see anything pertaining to fear, which I would expect if the protection was due to mindlessness.
Again, an effect is not nearly the same thing as a bonus. Looking through the plant immunities, I don't see anything pertaining to fear, which I would expect if the protection was due to mindlessness.
The protection is not due to mindlessness, since a lot of regular plant creatures (even if not all of them) have an Intelligence score.
It states that they are immune to mind-affecting effects. This includes charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns and phantasms. You can't charm them, control them or fool them with illusions. The only thing missing is scare them, which I would say is what "morale effects" aims for. And vermin and oozes both have protection from being mindless that does NOT disappear if they gain an Int score.
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Behold! You have angered my sunflower called Daffodil...your's is soon to be a story of woe, for Daffodil is a raging sunflower....
All that they found at the murder site were bloody sunflower seeds everywhere and a puddle of tears....
Behold! You have angered my sunflower called Daffodil...your's is soon to be a story of woe, for Daffodil is a raging sunflower....
All that they found at the murder site were bloody sunflower seeds everywhere and a puddle of tears....
I didn't know sunflowers were carnivorous.
I didn't know sunflowers were carnivorous.
I didn't know any flowers were carnivorous...but now I will be feeding all of my house plants raw steak just in case!
I hit the FAQ button. I'd definitly agree that it's a case of "specific trumps general" and applying common sense. It says it can rage as per a barbarian - the fact that the barbarian's bonuses are of a type that the plant is immune to is overridden by the "as a barbarian".
If there was an undead creature with a similar ability, I'd say that it also got the Con boost from raging - except that any number added to - is still -.
Personally, I think Mindless is a trait that should have been cleaned up with Pathfinder. Make it a subtype that applies as appropriate and remove it as being an automatic feature of Oozes, plants and vermin. I would even say remove the immunity to mind-affecting effects from Constructs and Undead. Instead focus on making sure abilities call out "living creature" and such if they can only affect living minds. Personally I would think Charm Monster should be able to work on liches, vampires, and free roaming homunculi. They have minds. These minds may be foreign, but are they any more alien than that of the stranger aberrations?
Mindless is not even a factor it does not have mindless it has plaint traits
Mindless is not even a factor it does not have mindless it has plaint traits
Good point, I should have put plants in with Constructs and Undead instead of with Oozes and Vermin.
@mplindustries
pretty sure that "dont be a jerk" rule apples to the writer as wellthe Polymorph spells is not that big of a bust on druid's spells maybe if it was wizards
Also the share spell ability has built in exceptions that should allow polymorph to work on a plant.
Share Spells (Ex)The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal). Spells cast in this way must come from a class that grants an animal companion. This ability does not allow the animal to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
This doesn't help with the rage though.
Basic breakdown
Specific>General. Means that
Plant Rage>Plants are immune to morale.
Now, the bigger problem for the Archetype is you only get to have bonus tricks RAW, as nothing in the Archetype says you can teach plants tricks via handle animal.
lol that is a better point sweet god this may go on for ever