I don't know, burt i think rogues major magic can fix thatAnd with only one talent to pick in 3 levels, how exactly would you get that?
I'm sure you can swap something out for a level I sorcerer or pick a race with an SLA.
3 Wizard/ 10 Cleric/ 3 Rogue/ 4 Fighter/ 10 Arcane Trickster / 10 Mystic Theurge / 10 Dragon Disciple
I really want to know the reasoning behind this combination
I have a friend who came up to me the other day saying that he knew someone who was planning on making his first campaign module and requested that the two people playing it play as level 50 characters. Upon hearing this, I immediately gave my opinion about the matter while explaining that Pathfinder was not designed for level 50 characters. Though I started to wonder, if you were given the option to create a level 50 character (On the presumption that you can't go above level 20 for any one specific class so it would require you to at least take three classes) what kind of character build would you do?I'm actually curious as to what your friend's friend was thinking. Did that person play D&D 3.x/Pathfinder before? And how did your conversation go?
I'd go with 20 levels in martial classes (20 levels in Fighter maybe with a dip in Barbarian?), 20 levels in Ninja so you can be completely undetectable. Level dips in bard, druid, cleric and wizard so I can every spell in the game on my spell list, and use my unbelievably-fantastic Wealth By Level to spam scrolls. (+5 inherent bonuses to all stats of course.)
(By the way, I know firsthand that this is the kind of thing 12 year olds will try to do the moment they get their hands onto Hero Lab.)
From the sound of it, my friend's friend is fairly new to Pathfinder and they just recently switched over from D&D 2nd Edition. I don't believe he has any experience in high level play so this will be an interesting experience for my friend. The first conversation went along the lines, of me arguing how completely imbalanced this was going to be and telling him the only way I could picture it working out was if the DM just started botching rolls and taking more control over the game to either keep the characters alive or him alive. We argued back and forth and kind of ended the conversation there. I just asked him the other day if he knew anything about the campaign and he told me he knew the boss had 8000hp, all stats were 40+ except Charisma and he got 3 attacks with 3d10, plus a ranged touch with 1d4 along with the fact that this boss had a family and an army of minions. Also informed me the DM wasn't allowing save or die spells. I immediately started pointing out all the balance points in this encounter that he would either have to take advantage of or be crushed (The boss apparently has a Charisma score of 1 so my first thought was drain that stat and immobilize him). We argued back and forth a bit and the conversation ended when he said he just wanted this kid to get into DMing because he didn't want to be the only DM in the group, to which I quickly responded DMing at this level is either going to completely skew his view of the game or leave a very bad taste in his mouth. Now I'm just waiting to hear how the session goes.
I can't imagine any mortal jumping in cold to Pathfinder and GMing a Level 50 encounter. I am just starting to GM Level 7 for the first time and I can already see the complexity piling up.
If I recall correctly, in 2nd edition D&D the only difference between a 50th level fighter and a 20th-level fighter was some hit points.
If what he wants is an epic encounter, he needs to familiarize himself with the system first and see high-level play in action. If he is trying to create an epic encounter, he should consider the Mythic rules, and only AFTER learning vanilla Pathfinder.
It sounds like your GM just wants to run a Final Fantasy endgame
Sorcerer 20, oracle 20, paladin 10. CHA to saves twice! Plus, all the spells. If 3.5 material is allowed be sure to get some slippers of battle dancing.
It is no an uncommon thing to sit and dream about ultra powerfull characters and High powered games. I think your friend and his friend wont be playing in a way that resemble the pathfinder i see in the books.
But if the game turns out to ok and they actually manager to jump in cold on level 50 GM and all. Make sure you get hold of the rules they use and post them here:)
Wait, so...would a Knife Master Rogue 20/Vivisectionist Alchemist 20/ Assassin 10 swing for...10d8+10d6+5d6 on a sneak attack? Someone please say yes. Then imagine making this roll with a heavy pick that you just confirmed a critical strike with.
Munch munch munch.
I heartily recommend Mutants and Masterminds for campaigns and adventures at this sort of power level, it copes with the superhuman and godlike much more readily than pathfinder, being that it's what...it's actually designed for.
Wait, so...would a Knife Master Rogue 20/Vivisectionist Alchemist 20/ Assassin 10 swing for...10d8+10d6+5d6 on a sneak attack? Someone please say yes. Then imagine making this roll with a heavy pick that you just confirmed a critical strike with.
Munch munch munch.
Sneak Attack isn't multiplied on a critical hit in PF, is it? There was a feat for it in 3.5 but it didn't survive the transition.
No matter, Heavy Fortification armor and/or shield gives you a 75% chance to ignore SAs (94% if you rule that they both work in concert).
Wait, so...would a Knife Master Rogue 20/Vivisectionist Alchemist 20/ Assassin 10 swing for...10d8+10d6+5d6 on a sneak attack? Someone please say yes. Then imagine making this roll with a heavy pick that you just confirmed a critical strike with.
Munch munch munch.
Sneak Attack isn't multiplied on a critical hit in PF, is it? There was a feat for it in 3.5 but it didn't survive the transition.
No matter, Heavy Fortification armor and/or shield gives you a 75% chance to ignore SAs (94% if you rule that they both work in concert).
And the knife Master need to attack with a knife to get the good dice. And depending on what rules for epic play you use some one with a bab of 5-13 below full is not gonna hit alot:(
20 Fighter/20 Synthesist/ 10 Eldritch Knight
I've seen games go above 50th level with the epic level handbook, which works seamlessly with PF.It's hard to find something more amusing than someone saying that the Epic Level Handbook works "seamlessly" with Pathfinder, when it didn't even work well with 3.0, and only got a half-hearted smattering of updates for 3.5 because it was clear that WOTC had washed it's hands of it by then.
This is just wrong. It worked very well in my experience. If you want it to work, it will work.
3 Wizard/ 10 Cleric/ 3 Rogue/ 4 Fighter/ 10 Arcane Trickster / 10 Mystic Theurge / 10 Dragon DiscipleI really want to know the reasoning behind this combination
Because you can
xD
You got full access to divine and arcane spell, Sneak Attack and Stealth from AT, attributes and defenses from DD..etc
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lvl 50 ninja....aka.... "bruce Lee"
gm can just go ahead and rage quit now.......
you mean monk (martial artist) 25/ninja 25
my actual build would be
monk (zen archer, quinningog) 20/ninja or alchemist (vivisectionist) 3/sorscerer (orc or that one that uses wisdom possibly a crossblood) or wizard (evocation or necromancy) 1 soul knife (soul bolt) 6 arcane archer 10 arcane trickster 10
alternativly you can swap soul knife with assassin for a death attack and a few other nifty tricks
ok your standard plan of attack
flurry of super enchanted ki enhanced, poisoned, sneek attack, psichic strike (or death attack if assasin) arrows that then explode into a fireball
outside of combat you're covered for essentially anything short of divine intervention, and you're decent at opposing that too
or LN Druid (either sky or storm druid archtypes) 13 master of storms 10 monk (four winds) 20 hmm for the remaining 7.... just about any caster would do, or you could go alchemist or barberian to try to max out unarmed strike
be sure to fully enchant an amulet of mighty fists, cast the spell strong jaw on your fists, enlarge self or wild shape yourself and have a fully enchanted bodywrap, anyone huge sized or smaller has no chance against your at will winds/whirlpool
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Real Advice On Epic Levels
1) If you're playing Epic, then there are Epic PrC's, not just Epic Classes. If you are using 3.5.
2) Little bit of difference at Epic - Melees have save or die attacks.
3)When you hit level 21, you get a MASSIVE WBL boost. You should immediately go out and purchase/make a DISMaL Ring of AC (+5 Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Morale and Luck bonus) for +25 to your AC. It comes in at about 350k, but doesn't trip the Epic Magic item rules because it's a combo item, similar to a Staff of Power.
4) You should then get a SIMPLR Cloak of boosting your saves (+5 Sacred, Insight, Morale, Profane, Luck and Resistance) for +30 to all your saving throws. Why? Because Epic is replete with saves at 30+, and if you fail them, you are dead. Again, about 300k, but priceless.
5) Items that provide immunities are extraordinarily nice. Resistances to stuff tend to be overwhelmed or ignored. Immunities at least provide half protection (the other half of many Epic attacks is often divine/profane/pure elemental energy).
6) Get bonuses from as many cheap sources as possible before you start spending 1 million gp on Epic items. You don't need a +6 shield, you need as many alternate sources of AC, hopefully touch AC, as you can scare up.
7) While PF set the standard for 'Epic' DR much lower, the original definition was a +11 Weapon in toto, OR a weapon with a +6 or higher Enhancement bonus. Generally, it's not that hard to get the latter...you can have 10 +5 Bane X weapons for the price of 1 +6 Weapon.
Also, a +5 Sun Sword is +7 against all Evil creatures, which covers a LOT of ground.
8) As a character, you MUST have heavy fortification. Note that MOST EPIC CREATURES DO NOT HAVE THIS. Any Epic NPC's, however, will. So crit builds work just fine...as long as you aren't fighting people.
9) IF you don't have a Brilliant Weapon available, you're an idiot. At Epic levels, this becomes a +30 to hit weapon against NPC's and PC's. It's insane.
10) Evasion and mettle become priceless. Escaping with NO effects for making any save? No residual effects at Epic are priceless.
11) Pre-Epic bonuses on skills are +30. Post Epic, the sky is the limit. The reason why Spellcraft checks can hit 200 is because you can blow a million gp on a +100 Spellcraft toy. Or, you know, make an Epic Spell that does it for you.
12) Epic Magic is broken and extremely abusable. If your DM allows it, any fairly clever player looking to abuse the system can run roughshod over the campaign. You will enjoy the game more if Epic Magic is either severely restricted or not used, and you stick with level 10+ spell slots and metamagic instead.
13) Likewise, Epic Leadership and the like, while basically giving you a kingdom, are also hugely abusable, especially with Epic Magic ritual-casting.
==Aelryinth
Yes, but currently the group that's playing this does not have access to any handbooks involving play beyond level 20, so that is where the problem lies.
I wonder... What will they even fight? The highest CR creature I can think of in PF is Lucifer from the Tome of Horrors, who is CR 39, IIRC. That's still 11 level below each character.
I don't think the GM fully understands what 50th level means...
Well, I hope they have fun, but this is going to be one weird game. Please, tell us later what shenanigans the characters managed to pull off. I'm sure there'll be lots of impressive stuff.
BTW, the Epic Level Handbook barely worked with its own version of D&D, I doubt it'd fare better with PF.
http://www.jessejackjones.com/sites/default/files/EpicPathfinder1.4.pdf
and***http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicBasicsAndClasses.htm***
Aelryinth's post is good, except #3 & #4 - never do that, that is what breaks epic games progression. When your PC is unhittable by any attack or any effect, you may as well quit playing.
Have fun!
Mmm. The problem at Epic is all the Touch attacks, and the save or die effects. If the touch attack hits, you're mucked. If you fail the save, you're dead.
That tends to break epic games right quick, as the guy with the TPK found out. Given how dangerous Epic play is, if you can't avoid touch attacks and make every save (you'll still likely have secondary effects to deal with), you're likely dead.
I'm looking at the save DCs for some of the demon lords in the Paizo write-ups, and they are routinely hitting high 30's, low 40's. Which means you need a +30 save or better to succeed at the save half the time.
Even 20th level characters do NOT normally have +30 to saves. A paladin with a 30 Cha will generally be sitting at a +27 Fort/Will. That's not enough. And given what happens when you fail the save, yeah, you better have a lot more bonuses then that.
==Aelryinth
I wonder... What will they even fight? The highest CR creature I can think of in PF is Lucifer from the Tome of Horrors, who is CR 39, IIRC. That's still 11 level below each character.
I don't think the GM fully understands what 50th level means...
Well, I hope they have fun, but this is going to be one weird game. Please, tell us later what shenanigans the characters managed to pull off. I'm sure there'll be lots of impressive stuff.
BTW, the Epic Level Handbook barely worked with its own version of D&D, I doubt it'd fare better with PF.
The Dm is making custom monsters for level 50 encounters from what I understand.
Yes, but currently the group that's playing this does not have access to any handbooks involving play beyond level 20, so that is where the problem lies.Even though you might (almost certainly do) have access to post 20th rules here's a couple more you may or may not be aware of:
http://www.jessejackjones.com/sites/default/files/EpicPathfinder1.4.pdf
and
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicBasicsAndClasses.htm
I still haven't quite figured out how to make actually links but hopefully you can use those to get there.
The first is from a thread on these forums (Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew => Epic Pathfinder Handbook: Custom rules for characters beyond 20th level)
Setting just what the rules for your game and the module actually are would be the very first step to take.
I very much agree with the majority of Aelryinth's post especially about the portions of the ELH dealing with Epic Spells and their creation. It's the Pandora's Box of the ELH, open and use with extreme caution. It can be a thing of beauty, it can also utterly destroy your game if not strictly monitored and wisely used by all involved. Toss in Magic Item Creation and UMD (and other non-scaling skills with their associated and often fixed DC's) and the potential for a disaster is huge.
Will definitely be using these links in the future. Thanks!
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lvl 50 ninja....aka.... "bruce Lee"
gm can just go ahead and rage quit now.......
you mean monk (martial artist) 25/ninja 25
my actual build would be
monk (zen archer, quinningog) 20/ninja or alchemist (vivisectionist) 3/sorscerer (orc or that one that uses wisdom possibly a crossblood) or wizard (evocation or necromancy) 1 soul knife (soul bolt) 6 arcane archer 10 arcane trickster 10
alternativly you can swap soul knife with assassin for a death attack and a few other nifty tricksok your standard plan of attack
flurry of super enchanted ki enhanced, poisoned, sneek attack, psichic strike (or death attack if assasin) arrows that then explode into a fireball
outside of combat you're covered for essentially anything short of divine intervention, and you're decent at opposing that too
or LN Druid (either sky or storm druid archtypes) 13 master of storms 10 monk (four winds) 20 hmm for the remaining 7.... just about any caster would do, or you could go alchemist or barberian to try to max out unarmed strike
be sure to fully enchant an amulet of mighty fists, cast the spell strong jaw on your fists, enlarge self or wild shape yourself and have a fully enchanted bodywrap, anyone huge sized or smaller has no chance against your at will winds/whirlpool
completely forgot the martial builds.
well not completely martial, but once you are this high leveled almost everybody can do at least some magicpaladin 20/majus 20/soulknife, inquisitor or bard (arcane duelest)10
you will have pretty much a +20~ weapon that you can deliver touch spells through you also have a really high to hit, and can cast in heavy (medium if bard) armor which at this level you will have if you do not choose to go Int to AC instead with kensai,
alchemist 13 master chemist 10 barbarian 20 synthesist or druid 7,
congratulations Mr B. Banner you can pretty much throw mountains
What build could you make to get the highest overall defensive options for a level 50 character?
Anything with multiple stat-based bonuses to AC will win the AC race.
Anything with immunities will win the defensive race.
I'd guess a paladin/monk among the classes, perhaps with 10 levels of that paladin/monk Iori PRC. But really, at that level magic items do most of your heavy lifting.
And on counterpoint, with spells, you can be defensive against anything with the right spells. So the best class might be wiz20/Cleric20/MT10 or something, for maximum number of spells.
==Aelryinth
Kensai Magus 20/Sohei Monk 8/Unbreakable Fighter 13/Paladin 5/Cavalier 4
effectively have evasion for all saves
Saves should be good with saves spread across classes (bit of a focus on Fort) and Cha to saves
take Horse Master to base your mount off of character level (plus Sohei bonuses)
Dex, Int, and Wis to AC so touch AC should be good
Flurry with your weapon, spell combat and spellstrike should work since the FAQ says "and other effects"
I'm looking at the save DCs for some of the demon lords in the Paizo write-ups, and they are routinely hitting high 30's, low 40's. Which means you need a +30 save or better to succeed at the save half the time.
Even 20th level characters do NOT normally have +30 to saves. A paladin with a 30 Cha will generally be sitting at a +27 Fort/Will. That's not enough. And given what happens when you fail the save, yeah, you better have a lot more bonuses then that.
I realize the paladin is a somewhat extreme example, but two things of note: That's +27 *before* ability score adjustments. Those are quite likely to be around +5 to +8 (stat boosters and/or books). Also, demon lords tend to be near CR 30, so fought around level 26, so that's another +3 epic save bonus. Plus epic cloaks of resistance are among the cheaper epic items. Even without those you're looking at +35 to +38, without buffs, for the usual auto-saves for the Paladin.
You don't need to cheese items to survive just fine in Epic.
Strong save is +12 at 20th level. If we assume a +6 stat booster, +5 Resistance, and +2 attribute bonus to start; thats only a +22 to your strong save
Weak save is only +6. So with the same assumptions, we end up with a total of +16.
Of course, there are other factors (feats, divine grace, situational bonuses like Bravery). But the thing that usually makes a difference at high levels is magic items/spells that provide immunity/resistance to effects.
You don't need to cheese items to survive just fine in Epic.
Unfortunately... You do. The stakes are too high at epic level, pretty much everything is a SoD effect.
:(
I'm looking at the save DCs for some of the demon lords in the Paizo write-ups, and they are routinely hitting high 30's, low 40's. Which means you need a +30 save or better to succeed at the save half the time.
Even 20th level characters do NOT normally have +30 to saves. A paladin with a 30 Cha will generally be sitting at a +27 Fort/Will. That's not enough. And given what happens when you fail the save, yeah, you better have a lot more bonuses then that.
I realize the paladin is a somewhat extreme example, but two things of note: That's +27 *before* ability score adjustments. Those are quite likely to be around +5 to +8 (stat boosters and/or books). Also, demon lords tend to be near CR 30, so fought around level 26, so that's another +3 epic save bonus. Plus epic cloaks of resistance are among the cheaper epic items. Even without those you're looking at +35 to +38, without buffs, for the usual auto-saves for the Paladin.
You don't need to cheese items to survive just fine in Epic.
Actually, I was assuming a Paladin/20 with a 30 Charisma, and therefore +10 to all saves, +12 for a strong save, and +5 resistance.
Bing, +27. And that's the highest save you can reasonably expect out of ANY PC.A +6 Cloak of Epic Resistance is 1,036,000 gp. That first Epic bonus is ONE MILLION GP.
No. Don't do that. Get Profane, Sacred, Morale, Luck and Insight bonuses instead. Stack them on the same item, pay the extra money. You'll still be far ahead. Even if you restrict the item value to 200k, that's still +3 for each, and a decent bonus.
Without that kind of bonus, you will always miss every weak save, and you will frequently miss your strong save. You have NO CHOICE but to get your saves in the stratosphere, or you're simply mucked.
==Aelryinth
You are correct on pricing. I was remembering the table for +11 bonuses and higher, which jumped abruptly to 1 million gp. x10 is the normal rule.
Which still doesn't change my example. Nor does your example above.
What you did was EXACTLY what I mandated everyone should do...except you are a caster, and could do it without magical items.
You have a resistance bonus +5.
You have a luck bonus +2.
You have a morale bonus +4.
You have a spell which gives a massive one time bonus.
You have immunities.
Most characters do not have INBUILT access to those bonuses, so they should buy them. Especially spells that grant +21 to a save. Yeah, your average Epic Level has those sitting around, not.
Nor do they have spells granting immunities. Nor can they resurrect themselves if the spellcasters bite it.
They don't have those casting opportunities to spend on themselves, so they should bite the bullet and accumulate as many small bonuses as possible.
==Aelryinth
The cost of a DISMAL Ring is 50k, +4 x 75k, not x93750. And that's using the 2500 gp constant for all of them, of course. You end up at 350k.
You could, of course, keep it to a +3 across the board, which would be 18k +4x 27k, or 126k, for a flat +15 bonus.
BTW, DISMAL is for AC (Deflection), SIMPLE is for saves.
And while that might sound excessive, you are missing the point of Moment of Prescience.
You have +21 for every saving throw, because you only have to use it when you NEED it. If your normal +20 works, fine and dandy. If it doesn't, then you 'auto-win'...and then Pearl of Power the spell back, or something.
The Ultimate Magic thing is nice, right up until you once again recall that many classes don't get and CAN'T get those bonuses without relying on others.
In your example, you get a +2 luck bonus from your staff of power...an item only mages use.
You get +4 from Greater Heroism, a morale bonus that is unavailable on any magic item.
You get a huge bonus usable when you wish it...because you have 9th level spells.
The only analogue to these? A paladin's + saves from Charisma, or a Superstitious Barbarian. Any other class is simply SOL on defenses and will get smeared in short order, because they don't have the defenses to survive to do their job.
It's how Epic TPK's happen. You can't have all the buffs available on all the people, all the time. Frequently, they are limited to the casters by design. Greater Heroism, for instance, is a TOUCHED ONLY spell...not a group buff like Heroism.
In effect, that Ultimate Magic rule is biasing defenses in favor of spellcasters, and leaving those without spells short shrifted and highly vulnerable if they don't have some sort of massive save bonuses they can get from their classes.
It's extremely uneven, not balanced.
==Aelryinth
But you will generally know the target number of the save, and if you MUST make it...you will!
Someone with base high saves still is going to fail. You only fail on a 1 whenever you want to...and then you can simply recast the spell so you don't fail again!
Having great saves all the time sounds nice. But the fact is you only need great saves when you need great saves. The rest of the time, you can have absolutely crappy saves and get by just fine.
And that's what the Moment gives you. - the ability to make your save whenever you feel you must. And all you have to do is recast or Pearl it back and you're armored against save failure again.
People with generic saves don't get that. And since they can't 'win the save' at will, they MUST have extremely high blanket saves.
i.e. you can have crappy saves + Moment, because you're going to win any save with Moment.
everyone else must have great saves, because they never get Moment.
===Aelryinth
Keep in mind they aren't boosting their saves by 20 or more.
They are boosting their saves to be the equivalent of having spells cast on them to boost their saves, at all times. In short, they are getting the benefit of having caster buffs to saves, except all the time, not when the caster dumps them out.
And sure, you don't need the bonuses all the time. You only need them when you need them. In your case, it's even better, because if you didn't need them for saves, you had other things to spend it on.
And if the people in the group had dropped 40k on Mind Blank items, you'd have more slots to free up, too!
==Aelryinth
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magus 20 soulknife (gifted/shielded blade) 10 agies 3 soul forge 10 pyrokineticist 1 paladin or bard (arcane duelist) 6
The ultimate archer build is fun
Ranger (trapper/falconer) 10 magus(Myrmidarch, hexcrafter) 18, sorcerer (Orc maybe?) or wizard (evoker, admixture) 1, arcane archer 10, then go zen archer 9 alchemist (grenader) 2
quiver of abundant ammunition belt and robe of the monk,
any feats that improve
add drow poison to all of your arrows
win
flurry of bestow curse, holy, shocking fireball drow poison arrows (that are then coated in another poison) that deal base damage equal to the a monk's fist,
that then force you to save VS death, and save vs stun and save vs 2 spells and save vs drow poison
Without my books, something around a 20 MONK(tetori), 15 BARBARIAN. 15 Druid Wildshape specialties. Be the wrestling and unnarmed strike god. Focusing on STR/DEX with a bit of wis.
Are combat maneuvers even still viable at this level? I feel like a lot of the monsters you would be facing would be immune to most of the combat maneuvers you throw at them in one way or another. Tripping is mostly gonna suck as most monsters have more than 2 legs/no legs/fly, while combat sundering and disarming seem pointless at a level where most creatures are spellcasting/built in natural attacks.