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I've been playing RoTRL as a wizard for a while now and we've hit level 11-12. I've been crafting Wondrous Items since level 5, mostly to provide custom stuff for my party, and I love that role.
The problem is that once you hit double-digit levels all the magical gear takes ages to create. I don't think I'm giving away too much spoilers by saying that at least up until that point in RoTRL events follow each other really quickly and there is little pause in between (we've been playing RoTRL once or twice a month for about 3 years real time but hit level 11 within 1-2 seasons game time). My crafting speed simply can't keep up with events (and experience) anymore. I imagine this is a problem crafters face in many campaigns.
I was wondering if you had any tips on keeping crafting times viable at higher levels without resorting to munchkinny ways (I'm looking at you Leadership).
I've taken a bonded object as arcane focus so a Valet familiar is unfortunately not an option.
There is a cooperative feat that allows you and someone else who has the same feat to add your seperate rolls together into one item, effectively making the same item with two creators (not the aid another, which gives only 2 on your roll if it succeeds). This can effectively make the team put in 4k of work per day if they can both shoulder the +5 penalty for double work.
Is the GM a stickler for the rules? If not, then it really doesn't matter how long it takes to craft. He can determine that crafting takes as long or as short as is needed between events. There will always be natural breaks between events. Crafting time should rarely be a factor.
Off topic: What do you guys mean when you say, Munchkin?
I think of someone really short, or a kid. There's another meaning?
Off topic: What do you guys mean when you say, Munchkin?
I think of someone really short, or a kid. There's another meaning?
This is a pretty good summary.
And asking your DM if he really cares all that much about crafting times is probably your best option.
Off topic: What do you guys mean when you say, Munchkin?
I think of someone really short, or a kid. There's another meaning?
Munchkin is a term that can mean a lot of things, but mostly its someone trying to 'game the system' to gain an advantage in the game that was clearly not intended by using things that interact with eachother in strange ways. The threshold for what makes a munchkin will vary, but basically its someone picks rediculous option combinations to gain an (apparent) unfair advantage.
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I'm also playing a crafter wizard in my RotRL campaign and although I haven't hit your level yet (about 1/2 way through 8th right now IIRC) the way I've been able to keep up while events transpire is to craft "on the road." In this case literally since the group is currently heading to Fort Rannik. True, you can only get quarter a day's work in while traveling but there are rules to support it (see Core pg 549)so even if your GM is a super stickler you can still get some progress made on your items in between scenes. You can also rush crafting, as DWK mentioned above, with only an additional 5 to the DC. These are two rules legal ways you can speed yourself up a bit without needing any cooperative crafting (although that wouldn't hurt either if you can find a way to swing it).
Worse comes to worse you can always bribe your GM with food, money, favors, etc etc to be a little lenient with the actual crafting rules so that you can feel that the FEAT investment you made is actually useful and worthwhile both to the party and your idea of the character.
Thanks for the suggestions all! The GM is not exactly a stickler for the rules but he might be a bit hesitant to break up the flow of the story for crafting, which might seem a bit power-hungry.
I'll definitely start using rush crafting, good suggestion!
I might look into Leadership after all as well. I was a bit hesitant to use that feat because I've seen it misused quite badly (and have done so myself, you can do scary things with 3.5 Epic cooperative spellcasting and a legion of level 1 mages) and I'm a bit of a natural optimizer. This is my first roleplay-heavy group so generally I try to hold back a bit except in epic fights.
Additionally we've already got a party of 4 PCs, 2 animal companions and another cohort. Didn't want to get combat even more cluttered and chaotic. Taking both into account, I'll discuss getting a noncombatant cohort, probably another mage pupil, which might fit the character really well.
I'll probably also discuss retraining my arcane bond or house ruling Eldritch Heritage so that I could take both my bonded object and a Valet familiar.
I'm running a RotR campaign at present and my PCs are bound to run into this as well. The Valet Familiar is a fantastic suggestion, but have you made note that you can do some of your crafting while you're out chasing down the Bad Guys (ie adventuring), you can do about 1/2 a days worth of crafting (with the Valet Familiar helping). Every little bit helps.
Introduce your fellow players to the downtime rules and tell them you need X amount of time. Building a Expedition pavilion and turning the main room into a workshop using bags of holding to carry the tools/workbench you need to craft with allows you to work anywhere.
I'll definitely start using rush crafting, good suggestion!
Check with your GM before you assume you can craft more than 1,000 gp per day by rushing. The rules might say you can't.
It says:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.
But it also says:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.
If you only read the first quote and ignore the second quote, it seems that you can do 4 hours of accelerated work twice per day, cutting the total number of days in half. But when you factor in the second quote, especially the bolded part, you realize that you cannot rush the process.
Taking both quotes together, I understand the rules to mean:
You normally need 8 hours to craft 1,000gp of the item's base price. You can accelerate this to 4 hours by increasing the DC +5. This does not let you rush the process, but it does mean you can go home and hang out with your family at lunchtime instead of dinnertime. In other words, it will still take the same number of days to make the item, but you're only working half a day on crafting instead of a whole day, so you have more free time each day to do other things, but you're still bound by the rule that you cannot rush the process so you cannot use your extra free time to do more crafting.
I know many other GMs who read it this way too, and I know some who don't. One day, I'd love to get Paizo's ruling on it. Until then, make sure your GM is OK with letting you rush the process even when the rules say you cannot.
Now, to be more helpful.
As a GM, I've run into this a few times. Most recently, in Shackled City, where the events come fast and furious with no real downtime at all.
My player spent resources to learn a couple crafting feats. If I follow the adventure guideline exactly, he'll never get to use them (or at 2 hours per adventuring day, he'll take a whole month to make a +2 weapon). That would not be fair to the players.
Solution?
I altered the adventure timeline. My players don't even know I did it. They haven't read the adventure, they don't know the printed timeline, so I just spaced things out enough for the crafter to make what he wants. Mostly. I still balanced it a bit by the Wealth-by-Level table and didn't let him make a ton of half-price items after every adventure, but he got time to make a few essentials as needed, more than enough to justify the feats he took.
So talk to your GM. Tell him your concerns. See if he can't slow down the pace a bit to accommodate the feats you took. If he won't do that, maybe ask him if you can retrain, since you took feats that are more or less useless in this campaign - usually just the fact that you're asking that question, especially if you ham it up a little, sigh a bit, look really disappointed, that sort of thing, should wake him up to the fact that his GMing pace is limiting the fun of the game for you. He'll cave.
This is the common way to go about it (since 3.0):
Step 1: Obtain a ring of sustenance* (market price 2,500 gp). If you already have a need for two rings (ring of protection and something else), consider replacing that amulet of natural armor with a hand of glory (market price 8,000 gp).
Step 2: "If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)." With the extra 6 hours per day from the ring of sustenance, the adventuring magic item crafter can spend 8 hours per day crafting (including both "adventuring time" and "dedicated time" in a "distracting/dangerous environment") for 4 hours of progress.
Step 3: "This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5." Increasing the DC by +5, the adventuring magic item crafter with a ring of sustenance can still gain 1,000 gp per day toward completion of magic items, working 8 hours per day for 4 hours of accelerated progress.
*- "This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind; its wearer only needs to sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself." (emphasis mine)
Even without the ring of sustenance, adding +5 to the DC can be used by an adventuring magic item crafter to work 4 hours per day for 2 hours of accelerated progress (or 500 gp per day toward completion).
I'll definitely start using rush crafting, good suggestion!Check with your GM before you assume you can craft more than 1,000 gp per day by rushing. The rules might say you can't.
It says:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.But it also says:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.If you only read the first quote and ignore the second quote, it seems that you can do 4 hours of accelerated work twice per day, cutting the total number of days in half. But when you factor in the second quote, especially the bolded part, you realize that you cannot rush the process.
Taking both quotes together, I understand the rules to mean:
You normally need 8 hours to craft 1,000gp of the item's base price. You can accelerate this to 4 hours by increasing the DC +5. This does not let you rush the process, but it does mean you can go home and hang out with your family at lunchtime instead of dinnertime. In other words, it will still take the same number of days to make the item, but you're only working half a day on crafting instead of a whole day, so you have more free time each day to do other things, but you're still bound by the rule that you cannot rush the process so you cannot use your extra free time to do more crafting.
I know many other GMs who read it this way too, and I know some who don't. One day, I'd love to get Paizo's ruling on it. Until then, make sure your GM is OK with letting you rush the process even when the rules say you cannot.
I thought so too at first.
But then a friend reminded me the the second rule only says that you can not work longer than 8 hours a day. So 2 periods of 4 hours of work that both deliver 1000GP of crafting would result in 8 hours of work and 2000 GP of crafting (provided you make the more difficult craft roll with an extra +5). And this not break the second rule, because we are not working longer than 8 hours. The +5 rule also let's you craft outside the laboratory at half your effectiveness times two, which equals to 4 hours of work on the road divided by 2 and then multiplied by 2 again (provided you make the more difficult craft roll with an extra +5).I think the second rule just says: You cannot rush the process by making 9 or 10 hour workdays in order to rush the process.
This is the common way to go about it (since 3.0):
Step 1: Obtain a ring of sustenance* (market price 2,500 gp). If you already have a need for two rings (ring of protection and something else), consider replacing that amulet of natural armor with a hand of glory (market price 8,000 gp).
Step 2: "If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)." With the extra 6 hours per day from the ring of sustenance, the adventuring magic item crafter can spend 8 hours per day crafting (including both "adventuring time" and "dedicated time" in a "distracting/dangerous environment") for 4 hours of progress.
Step 3: "This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5." Increasing the DC by +5, the adventuring magic item crafter with a ring of sustenance can still gain 1,000 gp per day toward completion of magic items, working 8 hours per day for 4 hours of accelerated progress.
*- "This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind; its wearer only needs to sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins...
You skipped the part where you take your mobile crafting lab into a rope trick with 7 hamsters to remove the distracting dangerous problem. So with the ring of sustenance you can still get 8 hours a day of crafting in overnight even in dungeons and still take advantage of the rush crafting rules.
You skipped the part where you take your mobile crafting lab into a rope trick with 7 hampsters to remov the distracting dangerous problem. So with the ring of sustenance you can still get 8 hours a day of crafting in overnight even in dungeons and still take advantage of the rush crafting rules.
"Non-munchkinny..."
You skipped the part where you take your mobile crafting lab into a rope trick with 7 hamsters to remove the distracting dangerous problem. So with the ring of sustenance you can still get 8 hours a day of crafting in overnight even in dungeons and still take advantage of the rush crafting rules."Non-munchkinny..."
Oh yea... my bad
Keep in mind the restriction on the above is that you must have a 'safe' place to do things in, and that generally means not on the road.
to the OP:
Don't be too worried about not being able to keep up with the more powerful items for the party.
The reason that the gp/day restriction is on there is specifically so that Crafting is not abused for permanent items this way. The best thing to do with your Crafting skill at your level is simply to make potent, cheap items, probably disposable, that you can trot out to save the day, and which can be made quickly.
The high gold/time cost of powerful items is meant to be used as a tool in the Wealth per Level calculations. If Creating magic items was simple, fast and easy, WBL would go out the door as general party level rose.
Example: Take 2 normal casters with Create Magic Arms & Armor, and Create Wondrous Item.
Give one a normal AP, with maybe 30-60 days downtime, and some travel time. What can he make? He can double the value of 30-60k + daysK in gold. He gets the party their bonuses a level or two early.
Give one unlimited time? He just DOUBLED their wealth by level, straight out. This gets more and more potent as they level, until they have +2 to +3 bonuses higher in gear and stuff then they would otherwise, and simply roll over the opposition.
This is because the cost of items more then doubles at low levels (1k, 4k, 9k, or 2k, 8k, 16k) and LESS then doubles at higher levels (9k to 16k to 25k, 16k to 36k to 50k to 72k to 100k).
Since Creating an item HALVES your cost, at high level Creating items is a massive wealth modifier (At high level, creating Magic Swords gets you 2 +10 swords for the price of one. That's 200k in cost savings. at level 3, that's 2k in cost savings for 2 +1 swords. At level 3, +2k won't improve your weapon at ALL. At level 12, +50k turns your +5 weapon into a +7 weapon. At level 15, it turns your +7 weapon into a +10 weapon.
Therefore, time is the only balancing tool, and it is meant to keep this WBL horse from riding out the door with your campaign balance.
As another example: You improve your fighter buddy's sword from +1 to +2. Normally this would cost him +6k, but for you, it's only +3k.
He takes his 3k and holds up his bp+1. For 1500 gp, you improve it to +2. For the other 1500 gp, he holds up his amulet, and for 500 gp, he's got an amulet of Nat Armor +1. He's still got 1k gp left, so he holds up his bow, and you make him a bow +1.
Do you see what just happened? Your one feat improved his main weapon by +1; gave him +2 to AC; and gave him a second magic weapon, all for exactly the same WBL as if he had bought the single upgrade to his weapon in the market.
THIS is the reason there's a time limit on that stuff. +12k gp worth of gear is huge. There's a reason these feats aren't allowed in PFS...everyone would have crafting to double their WBL!
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My suggestion is simply to find some good, cheap and useful magic items that you can make, and focus on those. Quaal's Feather Tokens, various elixirs, etc, all which can be made in a day.
Oh, and remember you can combine items, Every caster should have a Ring of Sustenance. Just add 50% to the cost and add it to your default Ring of Protection. Sticking minor effects on major items is a VERY good use of your time.
For instance, everyone should have Sustenance, Minor Cold Res and Minor Fire res. You're now basically immune to thirst, starvation and mundane temperature extremes.
just focus on minor useful stuff for everyone, and let your WBL now handle the big numbers.
==Aelryinth
Six hamsters and your valet familiar. Or six unseen servants and your valet familiar in a magnificent mansion.
I mean... I guess... if you wanted to be all fancy.
I believe the no rush is absolute. SKR weighed in on it, and so did JJ.
You can make 1000 gp of stuff a day. If it takes 30 days to make an item, that's what it takes.
You can 'rush' your hours spent in one day, i.e. increase production per hour and hit your 1000 gp limit in less hours per day.
But the number of days you're going to spend is absolute.
Think of it like forging a sword. You can learn to beat the crap out of the sword faster and more precisely, but you still have to heat it up, and cool it down, and that part of the process cannot be rushed.
i.e. the 1000 gp/day is absolute. YOUR part of it (your time) can be reduced. The gp/day, not.
==Aelryinth
Give one unlimited time? He just DOUBLED their wealth by level, straight out. This gets more and more potent as they level, until they have +2 to +3 bonuses higher in gear and stuff then they would otherwise, and simply roll over the opposition.
This only happens if the DM drops 100% of loot as gold/gems. Items must be sold back at half. In my experience the percentage of wealth dropped as gold vs dropped as items is less than 30% to 70%.
There have been so many threads over Sustenance, WBL, and Creating stuff, I've lost track of any links.
Are people sure there aren't any on the subject in the FAQ?
==Aelryinth
BigDT, that's a non-issue. If you get 200k in loot and you have to sell it for 100k, you have 100k in WBL. If the DM counts it as 200k, you're going to be underequipped, and you MUST have Create feats, or you're going to be behind the curve.
It's this dichotomy that Casters with Create feats can be above the power curve and everyone else behind it that creates a lot of tension in groups.
Likewise, the idea of 'paying' the caster for his Create Feats. The person paying ends up with slightly less then double his gold value, and the caster ends up with something like 300% of his WBL by 'charging' the other members for his feat. Everyone is ahead of the power curve, but the caster is WAY ahead of it.
==Aelryinth
Actually, remember the 3.5 feat Ancestral item? It was cool because it allowed you to pick a single item and enhance it as if you had the feat.
But get this...you did it be SACRIFICING wealth to the items.
So, grab all them jewels, jewelry, tapestries and other crap that would get sold for half value! Sacrifice them at full value to your Ancestral Item! You got a VERY nice item very quickly that way.
==Aelryinth
BigDT, that's a non-issue. If you get 200k in loot and you have to sell it for 100k, you have 100k in WBL. If the DM counts it as 200k, you're going to be underequipped, and you MUST have Create feats, or you're going to be behind the curve.
It's this dichotomy that Casters with Create feats can be above the power curve and everyone else behind it that creates a lot of tension in groups.
Likewise, the idea of 'paying' the caster for his Create Feats. The person paying ends up with slightly less then double his gold value, and the caster ends up with something like 300% of his WBL by 'charging' the other members for his feat. Everyone is ahead of the power curve, but the caster is WAY ahead of it.
==Aelryinth
As a DM I disagree with this. No where in the WBL guidelines does it suggest that the wealth should be "exact perfect gear that is precisely what the PC wants." So they get gear drops. It is worth a certain amount. If they WANT to change it for something else then they can. If they want to use what they got then they can.
If they sell everything and buy what they want eventually I will catch them back up, but it certainly isn't something happening so fast that I am going to see crafters blowing WBL at 2x. ESPECIALLY, if they are sitting around crafting and NOT adventuring to find that loot.
Nowhere in the rules does it say the DM should shaft the Players by loading them down with gear they don't want.
I'm reminded of this +7ish sword in the Savage Tide AP, which was this great legendary item of the forgotten city, with the special purpose of slaying dragons or something with the Earth subtype.
Thundering thud. Basically a powerful yet completely useless weapon only good for selling off to some collector. THIS was a legendary weapon?! We're going to be going off and fighting more and more demons and undead, and the DM gives us this?!
And the reason there are magic shops is precisely so PC's can get the stuff they want. Being content with what the DM gives them is a 1 or 2E mindset.
I'd also like to point out that gear drops are ALWAYS below the PC's level, because NPC wealth is lower then PC wealth. So they are never, ever going to get the stuff they actually want, and that is usable for them, as they increase in level, the discrepancy is too high. So, everything that must be sold has to be valued at half for WBL.
==Aelryinth
So I think we both agree that the meeting ground in the middle is that gear drops should be useful and beneficial to the party. Sometimes however, the fighter may have to put on a +4dex, +4str belt instead of a +6str belt. This is hardly shafting the player. If they want to get a +6str belt then the trade off is that the total value of their gear will be a little less. Eventually I will catch it up. But as I said, certainly not so quickly as to run into issue with the crafters doubling the WBL for the group, and certainly not without them going off adventuring.
Well, again, if you're playing a sandbox, there's nothing to stop the adventurers from saying "We're going to take a month off so we can craft some stuff."
AP's are noteworthy because they are 'events' that run into one another and don't leave the characters much time to do much. Indeed, there's often 'travelling merchants' built right into the AP so that PC's can sell loot and get more stuff. Reign of Winter has a 'booty call' you can use for one (a Mercane) and Savage Tide uses a captured mercane for the exact same thing! So they can get exactly what they want, even on a time schedule...it's just assumed as part of the game.
What are you going to do? You can railroad them into events and rush them, but all that does is make them want to get around events and pursue their downtime, and they WILL fight you tooth and nail on this.
And I'll note that a +4/+4 belt is going to cost in at 40kgp raw, and is actually more valuable then a +6 Belt. If he can't afford a +6, there's no way a +4/+4 is going to be dropping without DM fiat, anyways.
Note that upgrading from a +4 str to a +6 costs EXACTLY the same as upgrading the +4/+4, too.
I thought so too at first.
But then a friend reminded me the the second rule only says that you can not work longer than 8 hours a day. So 2 periods of 4 hours of work that both deliver 1000GP of crafting would result in 8 hours of work and 2000 GP of crafting (provided you make the more difficult craft roll with an extra +5). And this not break the second rule, because we are not working longer than 8 hours. The +5 rule also let's you craft outside the laboratory at half your effectiveness times two, which equals to 4 hours of work on the road divided by 2 and then multiplied by 2 again (provided you make the more difficult craft roll with an extra +5).
I think the second rule just says: You cannot rush the process by making 9 or 10 hour workdays in order to rush the process.
Here's a thought, presuming that the rule is absolute, and the crafter cannot 'rush the process', and gets ONLY 1000gp per day on the progress of a magic item,...
Here's the thought,... bear with me,... ;P
If you are rushing and adding the +5 DC to the craft roll, that is only 4 hours of work, so, rush ANOTHER item, work 4 hours on it, and make 1000gp progress on a separate item?
You are not working more than 8 hours total, but you are rushing and only working 4 hours per day on a single item, just working on 1 item before lunch and 1 after.
legal? or not? just wondering.
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Legal, but any work on a second item ruins all work on the first, for some reason that probably isn't realism, but closer to game balance.
I don't think Aelryinth is correct on only being able to achieve 1000 gp of work per day. Unless there's a developer quote to the contrary, there's enough wiggle room either way in the wording that I have to interpret higher Spellcraft as faster crafting.
I have been doublechecking the PRD again on magic item creation.
And the only limitations I can find are:
A maximum of 8 hours of magic item work per day.
A maximum of 4 hours work per day on the road which counts as half the time from missing a 'laboratorium'
You cannot create more then 1 item a day (and it's not entirely clear if you could start work, after finishing an item, on a new item that will not be finished that day)
You can accelerate work from 8 hours per 1000 gp to 4 hours per 1000gp if you take a +5 on the craft check.
Work must be done in 4 hour blocks. When not performed in a controlled environment the work only nets half the work, normally done in the same time.
I have not found another limit on magic item creation then the 8 hour limit and the create no more than 1 item a day limit.
So I do not see a problem of netting 16 hours in 8 hours by taking a +5 on the craft check. As long as I do not try to make 2 items a day.
If there is a limit of 1000 gp a day then please provide me a page number as I did not find that restraint in the PRD in the chapter on 'magic item creation' on page 548+549.
There is nowhere in the rules that states you can do more then 1000 gp of work in one day. Nowhere.
The only modifiers to the rules are that you can do 1000 gp of work FASTER, thus taking less time to do the same amount of work. Thus, there are methods to do 8 hours of work in 4 hours.
You are attempting to read that you can do 8 hours of work on magic items in a day, regardless, NOT that you can reduce the limit of 1000 gp/8 hours to 4 hours.
That's not how it works. There is NOTHING in the rules to support this.
So, I turn it around on you. Find a rule that explicitly says you can do more then 1000 gp of work on a magic item in a day.
The rules that are existing are concerned only with reducing TIME ...NONE of them say anything about the cap being increased.
As for spellcraft...the only thing spellcraft does is affect the final caster level of the item and make it easier to speed the process along. That's it as far as crafting. IT isn't like a Crafting check to make a sword, where higher rolls is straight more speed/day.
==Aelryinth
I thought so too at first.
But then a friend reminded me the the second rule only says that you can not work longer than 8 hours a day. So 2 periods of 4 hours of work that both deliver 1000GP of crafting would result in 8 hours of work and 2000 GP of crafting (provided you make the more difficult craft roll with an extra +5). And this not break the second rule, because we are not working longer than 8 hours. The +5 rule also let's you craft outside the laboratory at half your effectiveness times two, which equals to 4 hours of work on the road divided by 2 and then multiplied by 2 again (provided you make the more difficult craft roll with an extra +5).
I think the second rule just says: You cannot rush the process by making 9 or 10 hour workdays in order to rush the process.Here's a thought, presuming that the rule is absolute, and the crafter cannot 'rush the process', and gets ONLY 1000gp per day on the progress of a magic item,...
Here's the thought,... bear with me,... ;P
If you are rushing and adding the +5 DC to the craft roll, that is only 4 hours of work, so, rush ANOTHER item, work 4 hours on it, and make 1000gp progress on a separate item?
You are not working more than 8 hours total, but you are rushing and only working 4 hours per day on a single item, just working on 1 item before lunch and 1 after.
legal? or not? just wondering.
As I just noted, none of the rules EVER raise the cap/day.
The rules: Limit you to 8 hours work/day. So you can't work extra hours to break the cap.
Allow you to get 1000 gp of work done in 4 hours. They say nothing about allowing you to get 2000 gp of work done in 8 hours. All they do is speed up what you can already do.
Unless a rule specifically mentions that it allows you to do more then 1000 gp of work in a day, shortening the time does not allow you to do extra work, in the same manner that you can't work more then 8 hours on something.
==Aelryinth
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Aelryinth, there is no set cap on gold per day, just in hours per day. The only time a limit is mentioned is in hours per day.
The fact that the standard is 8 hours/1000 does not mean the limit is 1000. Since you can spend 4 hours doing 1000 with a higher Spellcraft check, you can still fulfill the limit of 8 hours and achieve a greater gold value.
You are correct that the rules limit you to work 8 hours per day. Nothing in the rules states 1000 gp per day; that's just the dependant variable.
Not seeing it, Mergy.
there's nothing in the rules that allow you to do more then 1000 gp/day. All they say is you can shorten the time for the 1000 gp down to 4 hours...it doesn't say you can keep working extra and do 2000 gp/day. Indeed, it says you can't rush the process elsewhere by working extra time, and the 4 hours as written is 'replacing' the 8 hours, not doubling your production.
Keep in mind that the rules say what you CAN DO...1000 gp/day. Reading that 1000 gp in 4 hours means 8 hours = 2000 gp is INFERRING something, it is not a rule.
And inferring stuff gets us to bad places, and is generally considered an exploit. It's best not to tread there.
==Aelryinth
rules say what you CAN DO...1000 gp/day.
Cite Source Please.
play kimgmaker has all the time in the world to craft anything your heart desires....
I'd love to play Kingmaker, it seems really interesting but I'm not gonna convince my group to quit RotRL 3 years in ;)
I was wondering if you had any tips on keeping crafting times viable at higher levels without resorting to munchkinny ways (I'm looking at you Leadership).
You might talk to the GM about whether you could find a Cooperative Crafting NPC or three in town. You'll likely have to pay them a premium such that your crafted items will end up costing you 3/4ths or full price instead of half, but it might be worth it to double or triple craft speeds.
As for munchkinny suggestions: My GM is allowing me to create an army of Chims(statting them as gnome alchemists with craft feats) to help me craft once I get the simulacrum spell. He's also allowing me to make my very own vocaloid mostly because it amuses him.
I guess you could make it non-munchkinnny by just making a single craft helper simulacrum.
Here is exactly what it says. All of it (well, all of it that is pertinent to how long you can craft each day, and I left out the traveling rules since they're just a fraction of the following, and I left out the bit about potions, scrolls, and cheap items because it's an exception).
I present the rules in the order they appear in the CRB, but I've numbered them for reference:
1) Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours.
2) Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day.
3) This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.
4) The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.
5) He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.
So, break it down:
1. "Requires 8 hours of work" and "with a minimum of at least 8 hours".
2. Not really relevant to daily work time, but I didn't want to exclude it, and it sets the scope for the following sentence.
3. "This process". What "process" are they talking about? They are not talking about the daily work hours. That is not the "process". The "process" is the entire process of making a magical item, including spending the gold at the beginning to making the Spellcraft check at the end, and everything in between.
4. This part seems pretty clear, but oddly, it's the part in debate. Go figure.
5. Cannot rush "the process" by working longer each day. We've already established what the "process" is. It's the entire process of creating a magical item. The entire "process", from soup to nuts, cannot be "rushed" by working "longer". Longer than what? It's not specific. Some certainly argue that it means "Longer than 8 hours". Others argue that it means "Longer than a workday which might or might not be accelerated".
The key is that it's talking about the "process" which cannot be rushed. How do we know that the "process" is the entire item creation? Because obviously you CAN rush ("accelerate") your daily work, shortening from 8 hours to 4 hours, so obviously the daily work is not the "process". Therefore the "process" must be the entire item creation.
Which "you cannot rush". Period.
In short (no pun intended), "accelerate" your daily work so you can go home and play with your family or kick puppies or go out wenching or overthrow the local government or whatever you do for fun. If you work 8 hours, you go home at dinner time. If you "accelerate" your daily work, you can go home at lunchtime instead.
But you "cannot rush the process" of creating the entire item.
I don't know why they didn't make it more similar to non-magic item crafting.
I like this idea. I might steal it. Dunno yet, needs some consideration - it might, or more likely, definitely will, throw a huge wrench in the WBL gears. Maybe that's not a bad thing, but since casters are already gods and they're almost always the ones making magical items, well, it seems to just widen the gulf between casters and non-casters.
Maybe if I throw in something about rising material costs as the number of crafting days shrinks - want to really speed it up with those demigod crafting skills, then make that demigod sword out of platinum and diamond and we'll talk.
That's a pretty big system overhaul for a houserule though.
Not seeing it, Mergy.
there's nothing in the rules that allow you to do more then 1000 gp/day. All they say is you can shorten the time for the 1000 gp down to 4 hours...it doesn't say you can keep working extra and do 2000 gp/day. Indeed, it says you can't rush the process elsewhere by working extra time, and the 4 hours as written is 'replacing' the 8 hours, not doubling your production.
Keep in mind that the rules say what you CAN DO...1000 gp/day. Reading that 1000 gp in 4 hours means 8 hours = 2000 gp is INFERRING something, it is not a rule.
And inferring stuff gets us to bad places, and is generally considered an exploit. It's best not to tread there.
==Aelryinth
The rules specifically state that work must be done at a minimum uniterrupted 4 hour implements to be fully effective, following that rules you can take two implements of 4 hour at double effect and net a 2000 gp a day.PRD page 549.
Example: you wake up, dress, eat, (maybe wash) and then go into the laboratory where you work at a +5 modifier for 4 hours. After that you break for lunch and then make another 4 hours at +5 modifier to the same item and nett a grand total of 2000 gp in one day. Not breaking any rule: 8 hours a day maximum, 4 hour uninterrupted work in the Lab and making the +5 check. I can only conclude that this is not only possible but even allowed. Low levels cannot easilly add +5 to their work multiple times. So they either work fast with all spells available and present, or work slow taking a +5 for missing requirement(s). And at higher levels they will work fast in order to get magic items in a faster pace as they need larger amounts of GP-value in their high level items. And remember all items have a craft value which increases if the item effect are higher level spells or effects.It also states the the 4 hours do not have to be consecutive, but most total a 4 hours a day minimum. This is to make work on the road possible yet less effective hence the 50% modifier for work done.
Because magic item creation does not state a maximum in GP, I conclude that the example above is valid. Check the analogy below as example:
A Fireball spell is obvious, stating 10d6 is max and it specifically states that. It seems like you are saying 10d6 has an average damage of 35 and therefor no higher amount of damage is possible, while you can maximize the spell. It still not allows more then 10 dice but will maximize the d6 to 6.
I don't know why they didn't make it more similar to non-magic item crafting.I like this idea. I might steal it. Dunno yet, needs some consideration - it might, or more likely, definitely will, throw a huge wrench in the WBL gears. Maybe that's not a bad thing, but since casters are already gods and they're almost always the ones making magical items, well, it seems to just widen the gulf between casters and non-casters.
Maybe if I throw in something about rising material costs as the number of crafting days shrinks - want to really speed it up with those demigod crafting skills, then make that demigod sword out of platinum and diamond and we'll talk.
That's a pretty big system overhaul for a houserule though.
Don't your casters create items for the non-casters? I'd actually wager that making crafting quicker would be a good way to decrease the power gap between casters and noncasters, as noncasters need wayyyyyy much more gear to be effective and survive.
My wizard declined every single magic item until level 6 or 7 because he only needed scrolls and a Headband of Intellect (which he got around that level). Meanwhile the frontliners needed magic rings, armor, shields, weapon etc...[Edit]: now that I think about it, in the next campaign I'll be GMing I'm probably gonna fuse each of the item crafting feats with the Master Craftsman feat so that noncasters can more easily create magical items and have more to do in their off-time. Always kinda annoyed me that casters who wouldn't know which end of a sword to stick in the bad guy are the ones who made all the legendary weapons. Should be an actual smith who does that.
Always kinda annoyed me that casters who wouldn't know which end of a sword to stick in the bad guy are the ones who made all the legendary weapons. Should be an actual smith who does that.
Making a sword is the easy part. The hard part is knowing where and when and how to craft all the magical "doodads" that make it more than a pointy hunk of steel.