There is 100 threads with 2000 post a piece about Paladin code of conduct. This is not a discussion about that. Im asking how PFS GMs handle things.
I wanted to ask about playing a Lawful Good Paladin. I thought PFS would be a good chance to play one, being I never got to play one in my last grp due to the whole "must be lawful stupid".
My question to the GMs out there is: How strict are you on paladins at your table?
While he feel like he could carry out judgements for the good of the world, this doesn't mean he is cold hearted or overzealous. If he catches a kid robbing someone he would not just cut his his hands off (though for a repeat offender adult he might). He would also realize that there can be unusual circumstances.
Scenario lead us to a bar with a "contact" inside. When we entered the "contact" was on a table being assaulted by a few guys. I tried to use diplomacy to talk them down. It failed. The "contact" was then knocked from the table and the assailants proceeded to pummel the poor guy. So I tried to use Intimidate to scare them off. It failed.
Now next, I realized I made a few mistakes. First, while being pummeled by guys in the real world could kill someone in PFS this is only subdued damage and cant kill anyone.
My next mistake, I stepped up to hit one of the attackers with my shield. The GM asked if I wanted to do subdued damage with my shield. I knew i was not going to kill the guy and didn't want to take the -4 on my hit. So I didn't pull my hit. I had a sword on my waist, they should know if I was trying to kill someone I would use that. But I rolled max damage and put the guy to -1 hp and he falls on the floor. I would have stabilized the guy....
So the bartender yells "No one kills in my bar, and pulls out a sword and attacks me. The other assailants all drew weapons to attack. I tried a Diplomacy check to talk down the bartender on my next turn. Telling him the usual, "I dont want to hurt you, I'm not looking for trouble. I was saving that guy." But on the bartenders next turn he hits me for 6 points of damage. Being I only have 13 hit points, and he is trying to kill me, I drew my sword and attacked. My first roll was a 20 and I asked the GM if i can forgo the crit confirmation. He said no, I rolled and confirmed. It was enough to kill him.
So everyone at the table starts commenting about the blood thirsty paladin. Yada yada yada. I did tell the GM I wanted to alert the authorities that it was me and I was attacked and defended myself. The GM was cool in the situation, but its come up not all tables might be the same.
So being im only level 1 and not locked in, should I just look to reroll?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Even non-lethal damage can kill, if you keep hitting after they stop moving (just like real life!)
I don't see any code violations in what you did, and I've never really seen paladins given a hard time in PFS (although I raised a few eyebrows when my paladin found a guy who hanged himself, then immediately asked how much his wedding ring was worth...)
Because of the nature of Organized Play, you won't get GMs concocting moral dilemmas to try to force paladins to fall. However, keep in mind that many missions assume you will lie, cheat, and steal to get it done. There are some scenarios where a paladin simply will not be welcome or helpful. I'd strongly recommend having a backup PC in case a GM warns you off from a particular scenario.
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Did you get an alignment infraction? I don't see why you would need to re-roll a character unless you picked one up and don't have the cash to pay for an atonement. You should be fine with PFS GMs. The issue is if you start performing evil acts. GMs aren't supposed to dictate how players play their characters and shouldn't force you to play Lawful Stupid.
A bit rambly of a reply, but lack of sleep does this.
~NPEH
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Yeah, I don't really see anything outside the norm in your concept. Most of the people I run into in PFS playing paladins have the same approach you are describing, with less actual background reasoning behind the approach.
If your players were giving you a hard time I suspect it was simply because they were ribbing you for NOT playing lawful stupid. Don't sweat it. Just don't do anything you wouldn't be willing to let those orphans you have a soft spot for know about. If your actions will measure up in their eyes, you're playing your paladin correctly.
PS - Like RainyDayNinja I have not seen many paladins have a hard time with PFS. Now that faction missions no longer exist as they used to you should have even fewer issues. Just remember to have fun.
Venture-Captain, California—Los Angeles (West LA)
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I think that the actions that your character took were spot on. I feel that if anything it serves as a reminder that any action you take has great consequences and to me that is enough of a warning for your character to remember his moral obligations to his deity.
As the other posters noted, PFS Judges are greatly lax on the enforcement of moral obligations unless an outright infraction is made and most judges i have seen have given a warning prior to allowing the player let the character make an action that would violate an moral obligation.
So I would take it with a grain of salt and keep on doing what your doing. As a player I would be more worried for my character regrading about domination or enchantments which would break my characters moral obligations and force the need for an atonement.
Cheers & Good Luck!
most judges i have seen have given a warning prior to allowing the player let the character make an action that would violate an moral obligation.
This helps alot, I was just curious to see others experiances and if i was better off making a new character.
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So the bartender yells "No one kills in my bar, and pulls out a sword and attacks me...
My first roll was a 20 and I asked the GM if i can forgo the crit confirmation. He said no, I rolled and confirmed. It was enough to kill him.
This is actually pretty funny story. I give you props for trying to play LG they way you pictured it for your character. You were trying to do good, the dice were just not in your favor.
Perhaps invest in a mancatcher, nets, bola and/or tanglefoot bags. You could also do improved disarm and grapple. Saps are a great way to do non-lethal.
My question to the GMs out there is: How strict are you on paladins at your table?
I've seen it all over the place. Personally I'm a little lax about it myself, but I've met quiet a few guys who think paladins deserve to fall for just about anything. A friend of mine uses blade of mercy so he can always deal non lethal with his weapons and had a character concept that involved not killing anyone*, and somehow someone still said he was doing the right thing for not killing people. The locals liked to give paladins and clerics a hard time about just about anything.
*If possible. He still rolled over well enough to knock someone into bleeding a few times when he crit.
Storytime
Hope the guys at the table were joking about you being blood thirsty. Sounds like a rough time from the GM and players. Hopefully you won't have to deal with an experience like that again. Hopefully... If your playing with locals and you think they won't play nice, its not a bad idea to pursue another concept. There are also a few ways to deal non lethal when it comes up(blade of mercy being the easiest).
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Not very.
I think 90% of PFS paladins, if it were a campaign, would slide from LG to NG ... or further, just from all the rules they constantly break.
Any individual session can be justified as "Doing good and letting the law part slide" because thanks to the episodic nature of PFS we don't get to see it become a habbit.
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I wouldn't let a handful of jabs discourage you. I think there's a fair amount of teasing when any LG character does something others find questionable. I think most of it is goodhearted, and if it bothers you talking with someone could probably put a stop to it. The first rule is not to be a jerk after all.
That said, given the situation you found yourself in, you might want to invest in a Sap. Cheap weapon with nonlethal damage, so you don't find yourself trying to explain a use of force over a dead body.
(That was one brave bartender, going after an armed Paladin...)
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Well the concept of a critical hit is not that you randomly decided to put more strength into the hit, but that you randomly hit a soft/critical spot on the target.
I believe that the TARGET of an attack roll can voluntarily choose to be hit by the attack, but I don't recall any rule that the attacked can choose to miss with an attack after swinging.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Back to the critical hit. Are you really required to roll to confirm? You are certainly able to fail saving throws if you want to. I've never seen it come up before, but it seems that you could pull a punch if you wanted to.
But you're NOT pulling your punch. If you were, you'd be taking -4 to hit and doing non-lethal. I'd say that, if you rolled a 20, the confirmation is simply the game mechanics asking if it was a critical hit. Now, if you have a feat like Critical Focus, I'd say you can choose to not apply that bonus. But the confirmation has to happen, I would think. Whacking him was the goal. He juked left instead of right, and you got him in the jugular - that's where the confirmation comes in.
Back to the original topic: the fight you described is from a very early PFS scenario. I don't recall which, but I believe it was Season 0. The GM was simply running the encounter as it was written (mostly). You were doing something outside the box by trying to use diplomacy, then STILL trying to use diplomacy when things started falling apart. The GM was simply following what was written (and keep in mind that it was written six years ago, when the assumption was that players would lead with attacks, then talk later).
So, once again, don't sweat it. You're PC is fine, and I think you'll enjoy playing him your way. Yes, you'll take some ribbing from players, but I think if you ask you'll find out that it's based only on the expectation that you're supposed to be "lawful stupid" as a paladin.
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Paladins are Pathfinder's Crusaders, and in the real world Crusaders were viciously bloody but believing they were living a good cause. No GM would make you "fall" for your listed activities; you were attacked, and planning on stabalizing people afterwards. You have a right to defend yourself within the law. If someone offers surrender take it; just don't go "Judge Dread" and be judge/jury/executioner for everyone you meet.
If someone offers surrender take it; just don't go "Judge Dread" and be judge/jury/executioner for everyone you meet.
While i'm not being cold hearted and following the law/rules to the letter, I don't agree with the first part of your statement. If someone murders someone and tries to surrender, I would offer him to try and explain if there was valid reason. If the explanation wasn't acceptable I feel I don't have to accept the surrender.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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He was responding to people fighting in a nonlethal matter with lethal force. (That he was planning to stabilise them later is irrelevant.) I can't imagine a constable that would not take a rather dim view of such a response.
It's actually not quite that simple. Recognizing the scenario, this is not your basic bar-room brawl that the paladin turned lethal. This is a closed bar being used as a hideout where a criminal group has taken their kidnap victims. One such victim has been stapped, helpless, on top of the bar so the thugs can beat the s%$% out of him. (If memory serves, it was to make an example of him for having resisted being kidnapped; but I could be wrong there.)
We're not talking about a normal civilian fistfight into which the paladin introduced lethal force. We're talking about the paladin walking in on a violent crime in progress and trying to end it nonviolently before finally resorting to lethal force in order to intervene.
Not that all of that was necessarily as clear in the retelling as it would have been at the table, though. :)
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There is 100 threads with 2000 post a piece about Paladin code of conduct. This is not a discussion about that. Im asking how PFS GMs handle things.
I wanted to ask about playing a Lawful Good Paladin. I thought PFS would be a good chance to play one, being I never got to play one in my last grp due to the whole "must be lawful stupid".
My question to the GMs out there is: How strict are you on paladins at your table?
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
I remember that bar. That sign that says check your weapons at the door...it means make sure they're in working order.
My background and my buddy Skizm's background originate from a long discussion on our local PFS board about whether it was an alignment infringment for a paladin to whipe out an entire village of orc women and children while the men were out raiding an evil village.
A Chelaxian paladin I know is a major slave owner.
You...used diplomacy and intimidate trying to stop a fight.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Jiggy, you and I have different scenarios in mind. I think the one in the OP's comments takes place in Absalom.
Another note to remember: using Diplomacy to modify an NPCs opinion of you takes a full minute on continuous interaction. (In D&D 3.5, you can take a -10 penalty for "rushed diplomacy" attempts; not so in Pathfinder.)
Another rantI know what you're referring to, but keep in mind they have almost no offensive capability. It might take a while to win, but it would be virtually impossible for the bad guys to kill everyone.
Fair enough, Brutal wasn't the proper word. Annoying and irritating.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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The game the OP is referring to is the [redacted], if I'm not mistaken. Which takes place in Absalom.
To the OP: While not all GMs would have played out the combat that way, know that your GM was running that fight as the scenario dictates. Yes, the guy is being attacked by 3 people. Yes, dealing lethal damage or drawing a weapon causes the bartender to jump in. So it was just an unfortunate situation. I think that you'll find that a majority of GMs out there aren't trying to "screw you over" or anything of the sort. Some may remind you of your Paladin oath if you start to do things like consider torture, lying, or breaking the law. But that's how paladins are by nature.
They are that stick in the mud character when the party comes up with solutions that involve theft, deception, or consorting with devils. It becomes even harder for you as the player when you consider Pathfinder paladins. You are required to be LG. The Society is N. There are times when you will be asked to do things that no paladin in their right mind would ever do. Like negotiate with vampires, or accept an evil brand, or get turned into an undead. And since you answer to a higher power which divines your power, you're often going to find yourself in difficult situations like that barroom brawl. You'll have to decide which "boss" your character would be more receptive to answering. If you decide Ragathiel, then paladin is the way to go. But if you're afraid of loosing some face with the Society (and prestige and possibly gold), you may want to consider another class.
But personally, I wouldn't. Especially given how that situation you described turned out. Given the outcome of it, it would be a great opportunity to dig into your character and add some trauma to his adventuring history.
He took someone's life that didn't need taking. Morale-wise, that's like kryptonite to a paladin. But in terms of roleplaying? It is pure gold. Maybe he could have restrained himself, but did not Ragathiel's wrath guide that strike? Perhaps he decides that his Empyreal Lord dictated that blow to be a critical. Maybe the bartender was doomed to his fate when he entered the arena of war against Ragathiel's most holy servant. Death was the only outcome, and a clean death it was. After all, Ragathiel's domains do include vengeance and justice, and there is no room for meekness in following his divine obedience.
Personally, I don't have a paladin in PFS -- I haven't found a build I really want to explore. The closest I have is a Magaambyan Arcanist. Think of them like a wizard/paladin that casts some druid spells. But he's a blast to play, especially when you have a party of diverse alignments. You can get some good roleplaying out of the clashing of two PCs ideologies.
Walter Sheppard is correct.
My GM was really cool about it, but it got me to thinking about other GMs. THats what started the thread.
Thanks for your input Walter, I will try to integrate that into his personality.
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Hrm, guess I was thinking of a very different scenario.
Probably one of the things that tends to reinforce that murder-hobo-bums image.
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Hrm, guess I was thinking of a very different scenario.** spoiler omitted **
You get the gold for "defeating" the opponents, whether you beat them up and take their stuff, talk them out of pummeling you, or sneak past them.
the PCs roleplayed past an
NPC who carries a specific potion or scroll
that the PCs might be granted access to on the
scenario’s Chronicle sheet, don’t cross
that item off the sheet—instead,
allow the PCs to find the item
elsewhere as a reward
for creatively resolving
the encounter without
resorting to combat. Pathfinder Society Organized
Play never wants to give the impression that the only
way to solve a problem is to kill it—rewarding the
creative use of skills and roleplaying not only
make Society games more fun for the players,but it also gives the GM a level of flexibility in ensuring
players receive the rewards they are due.
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I've not gone the paladin route, (in PFS) because I could not see a method for splitting the association with evil and neutral people with a Paladin's personal honor. In a city at the center of the world, that allows slavery. With a grand lodge featuring a Mausoleum where the dead and undead are studied. Run by essentially, a criminal organization that often requires the Paladin to
** smuggle the ...
** steal the ...
** forget about the civilians, what we want is the ...
** assassinate the ... because our friends the ... benefited from the ... but now refuse to pay up.
(in this one I asked to join the prestige class assassin)
(but it was pointed out that I did not receive payment so I can't join)
** vandalize the ...
However, I did run into a method to bypass my limitation. The Silver Crusade deals with the typical murder hobos as a method to show them how it is possible to do good and act honorably. Without resorting to apprehending the lawless and generally evil acting members and leaders.
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I have a Paladin (or Abadar), currently at 4th level, and he's probably the character that has been the easiest for me to RP. As it happens, he also went through [redacted], and then encounter went down a little differently for us.
If it is one I am thinking you are talking about, OP, a few thugs are accosting the witness we are looking for. Magnus just waded in, proclaiming that the combatants should stop. Also in the group was an Inquisitor of Asmodeus, who just kept an eye on the bartender the whole fight... intimidating him not to fight.
Magnus never took the first swing in that fight. But he took the final one a couple of times. He was later told by the inquisitor that pretty much EVERYONE was evil in that bar.
Of course, the reason Magnus is so fun to play is that he has a very strong moral code. He is all about defeating corruption, and evil. So, the Worldwound is a natural place for him to gravitate towards. He isn't stupid, but is lacking in a bit* of common sense (Int 13, Wis 8).
In fact, he's been so fun for me to play, that I created his twin sister... a "Cleric of Aroden" (really, she's an Oracle, but that's what she calls herself). This makes his back story make even more sense. He is Taldan (by decent, Silver Crusade by faction), and he often calls out "For the Last of the Azlanti" or something like that as a battle cry. His family never quite accepted that Aroden has died, and they have proof of Aroden's power in his sister. :D
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There are many cases where the law itself is evil, and so the paladin is backed into a "Judge Dread" situation. I've been around and around with people about this. But a paladin in a LE nation has no responsibility to obey their laws. Evil doesn't get to hide behind a lawyer. So, in a way, each set of laws has to be judged by the paladin for the "lawful" part to come into play. It's a very difficult situation in general because life is not black and white.
So, in a way, each set of laws has to be judged by the paladin for the "lawful" part to come into play. It's a very difficult situation in general because life is not black and white.
What makes it really difficult is that it really isn't up to the paladin as much as the GM and scenario. Luckily you don't fall for taking chaotic actions. Life would be a lot easier if it was actually up to the paladin's decision.
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I make it very clear to GMs how I play paladins. If it looks like there will be a problem, I play something else. But it does absolutely no good to turn an NPC over to authorities that will just *blatantly* let him off the hook. Furthermore, I don't see how laws that legalize evil acts can possibly be legitimate to a paladin.
Makes me miss the holy liberator from 3.5. Slavers? Kill them.
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"My next mistake, I stepped up to hit one of the attackers with my shield. The GM asked if I wanted to do subdued damage with my shield. I knew i was not going to kill the guy and didn't want to take the -4 on my hit. So I didn't pull my hit. I had a sword on my waist, they should know if I was trying to kill someone I would use that. But I rolled max damage and put the guy to -1 hp and he falls on the floor. I would have stabilized the guy...."
With all respect, you, the player, may have "known" this, but your character doesn't. Maybe he was beat up from a prior fight and/or fighting a disease. Maybe he isn't as tough as the player assumes, which is largely based on meta knowledge or assumptions about appropriate challenges; such information isn't known to characters.
Don't get me wrong: you attempted several non-combat resolutions before deploying lethal force. I'm not second guessing you, nor condemning you or your play. I'm just pointing out where the wall between character and player failed.
For what it's worth, I haven't played a paladin for over 30 years, and wouldn't in PFS. I'll leave that to players who are more adept as dealing with the morale quandaries I have enough trouble playing good clerics being given assassination missions. :)