I like how the ability fell in this iteration, for the most part. I think dropping huge amounts of damage is not thematically correct for a bard.
I would suggest increasing its power in one of two ways - either take it out of the realm of a bardic performance and making it an ability that consumes rounds of performance (thus not ending other performances, such as inspire courage), or keeping it a performance, but allow the action requirements to change along with initiation of other performances. Now, the latter would allow you to blast someone three times (swift, move, attack action) in a round (or 3xlevel of someones) eventually, but at a large cost in actions for one target or a large cost in rounds for multiple targets. It would also allow you to restart another performance after blasting.
I'd prefer the former as it would essentially be free spells for them to use when they ran out, on top of maintaining their performance.
I think the problem is that the damage is so easy to get. You aren't investing in a ranged weapon or replacing particularly powerful features, but get a huge pile of attacks that are all normal BaB, touch, your choice of form, easily cranked up through damage bonuses + large number of attacks, and so on.
An idea comes to me, though excuse me if something similar has been brought up before and I missed it...
Why not just make the ability essentially a normal attack? Using Weird Words would just be a ranged attack that used normal rules for iteratives. It could even be a normal ranged attack and no save, rather than touch, making it even more comparable to a weapon attack (more likely to miss, but with Deadly Aim as an option).
The idea is to make an "Archer" Bard that uses sound instead of arrows, offering different benefits but being comparable to one another. You would have an advantage with using Charisma for attack and damage, choosing the weapon damage type, and being unable to be disarmed. However, you would also be losing out on the enhancement bonuses, special abilities, and special materials of a weapon and ammo, have limited range, only a x2 critical, be unable to benefit from your own Inspire Courage while doing it, and be more likely to run out of rounds than an archer would be to run out of arrows (even at 1 round/round, rather than 1 round/target).
In terms of damage, the Bard with a bow would still lead (through Manyshot, enhancement bonus, and Inspire Courage). However, using Weird Words as a primary option would be a viable option, allowing me to play The Harpists without being overpowered or their main shtick being too weak. Ideally Weird Words could be moved to 3 so the concept could get off the ground easily (with level 7 being dropped or replaced with a conal), but I think I should just stop talking now before this post becomes too rambly.
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I suggested the idea of just making the Weird Words a weapon on its own a while back and I don't think anyone liked it but me.
That said, if this ability has to be weak, then the Sound Striker might as well be dead.
There's no compelling reason to take an archetype built around doing something a bow already does better.
The point of Sound Striker, I thought, was to allow a "blasting" bard, since that was a niche not already present (though Thundercaller now holds that distinction).
Since the point is to waste excess Bardic Performance rounds doing something weaker than a default ability every Bard has access to (shooting a bow), I just basically have to write the archetype off.
I'd request they just remove it completely so as not to trick people who think the flavor is cool into taking it and suffering, but I doubt that's an option.
I just see no purpose to a weak ability with opportunity costs (no suggestion or other archetypes that replace suggestion), action costs (standard), and resource costs (bardic performance).
Keep in mind that weird words is replacing the suggestion bardic performance, which is a weak ability of the base class and not something you could normally use in combat (as fascinate requires the target to be fascinated, and that effect doesn't work if there is combat nearby to distract them). So this archetype replaces a non-combat ability (suggestion) with a combat ability (weird words), so weird words can't be a strong combat ability because that would be a significant powerup for this archetype (replacing a non-combat ability with a combat ability, and replacing a weak ability with a strong ability).
Thundercaller.
I don't think the bard's role should be "stacking huge amounts of magical damage on a single target." The bard barely sticks its toe into the "does a moderate amount of damage to multiple targets" pool...
Then the ability you have proposed fits the role you believe it the bard should be. I do think you are proposing a valid balanced change. However, I still think there already is an aoe option in thunder caller and so this archetype seems redundant.
If the PDT does not want this ability to be a single target option then really there is no further point to this thread as the change is better balanced and more clear than the original version. Granted I stopped following this thread when things started to go in circles so maybe there was some other reason that I am not aware of.
I liked the idea of weird words as a weapon, but it's something that would require a significant rewrite. If the sound striker were in playtest it would be one thing, but for errata it's just too much.
Though I piled a bunch of stuff on top to allay theoretical balance concerns that might pop up, at its core the idea of the change is switching the attack to a normal iterative instead of 1/level up to 10. I would honestly argue the current PDT change is a larger change, substantially increasing Performance round usage and adding damage scaling. As rays both versions would stay weapon-like spells, and both ideas drop the save, so they are equal in those regards. I'd also consider individual vs group targeting a wash in terms of changes, as the PDT post made it seem either is a reasonable reading at this point.
But, I really have no rebuttal if the ability absolutely must be an AoE rather than a weird (and weaker) archery alternative. Obviously, if a full attack on a single foe isn't on the table, it isn't on the table.
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Thundercaller.
The thundercaller's thunder call is WAY too good:
Gain: Spend 1 round of performance for an AOE sound burst, with the damage scaling up with caster level.In exchange for: Inspire competence, where you give one ally a +2 bonus on skill checks for 1 round.
I see why you're using thundercaller as a comparison, but thundercaller (at least, that specific ability) is way too good.
Thundercaller.The thundercaller's thunder call is WAY too good:
Gain: Spend 1 round of performance for an AOE sound burst, with the damage scaling up with caster level.
In exchange for: Inspire competence, where you give one ally a +2 bonus on skill checks for 1 round.I see why you're using thundercaller as a comparison, but thundercaller (at least, that specific ability) is way too good.
I understand that Thundercaller has a good option, but at the same time, any change to the Sound Striker, I felt, needs to be compared to the Thundercaller. If the changes aren't at least as good a choice as the Thundercaller, then what incentive does a player have to choose a Sound Striker over that of a Thundercaller?
Weird Words, as written (and proposed) only deals damage. In order for it to compete with the Thundercaller, who has decent damage for it's action cost, and a potent debuff, then the Weird Words needs to do enough raw damage to make it viable.
As it stands, Weird Words is limited to a Standard Action (while Thunder Call eventually becomes a swift action), and at higher levels, the damage of the original ability, let alone the proposed changes, is pitiful and not worth the action cost.
If it stays restricted to a Standard action, then the damage it deals needs to be actually useful.
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Thundercaller.The thundercaller's thunder call is WAY too good:
Gain: Spend 1 round of performance for an AOE sound burst, with the damage scaling up with caster level.
In exchange for: Inspire competence, where you give one ally a +2 bonus on skill checks for 1 round.I see why you're using thundercaller as a comparison, but thundercaller (at least, that specific ability) is way too good.
I understand that Thundercaller has a good option, but at the same time, any change to the Sound Striker, I felt, needs to be compared to the Thundercaller. If the changes aren't at least as good a choice as the Thundercaller, then what incentive does a player have to choose a Sound Striker over that of a Thundercaller?
Weird Words, as written (and proposed) only deals damage. In order for it to compete with the Thundercaller, who has decent damage for it's action cost, and a potent debuff, then the Weird Words needs to do enough raw damage to make it viable.
As it stands, Weird Words is limited to a Standard Action (while Thunder Call eventually becomes a swift action), and at higher levels, the damage of the original ability, let alone the proposed changes, is pitiful and not worth the action cost.
If it stays restricted to a Standard action, then the damage it deals needs to be actually useful.
They could get Patrick to post errata to the Thundercaller.
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The thundercaller's thunder call is WAY too good:needs to be compared to the Thundercaller
If it stays restricted to a Standard action, then the damage it deals needs to be actually useful.
I think the fact one ability is too good, shouldn't mean that all future abilities should be equal or better.
If that were true, then there would be nothing but power bloat as all new abilities would be as good or better than older ones.
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The thundercaller's thunder call is WAY too good:needs to be compared to the Thundercaller
If it stays restricted to a Standard action, then the damage it deals needs to be actually useful.
I think the fact one ability is too good, shouldn't mean that all future abilities should be equal or better.
If that were true, then there would be nothing but power bloat as all new abilities would be as good or better than older ones.
Yep. Balance to core.
Otherwise it's just a powerclimb.
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Is the rough goal to make Weird Words about as useful to a Sound Striker as the above abilities are to their archtypes?...
There is also:
Archivist, Demagogue, SandmanI think the rough goal is to replace Suggestion with something combat usable, but to consider that Suggestion isn't combat useful and the resulting power of Weird Words should reflect that Suggestion isn't strong and the Bard's role isn't damage.
Your 4 and my 3 Archetypes all have things that replace Suggestion that are not very strong. But Weird Words is most of it's strength out of the gate and gets slightly better (the PDT reword version) over levels. So it is already better than anything I can find that replaces Suggestion in other Archetypes.
I don't think looking at individual replacements is useful. Archetypes are balanced on the whole, not 1:1 for abilities.
Unfortunately, despite us concentrating on Weird Words, it seems people don't agree on how Wordstrike works, either (what is the range? Are "sonically charged words" sonic?). Depending on reading (and if blowing up wands/spell component pouches/other gear is the intended use) it compares very differently to the extremely versatile Inspire Competence, which would have to be included in the equation.
Obviously, my personal choice would be to throw away Wordstrike so Weird Words could be a bit better, which would skip the problem of Wordstrike also needing at least some errata as is.
The thundercaller's thunder call is WAY too good:needs to be compared to the Thundercaller
If it stays restricted to a Standard action, then the damage it deals needs to be actually useful.
I think the fact one ability is too good, shouldn't mean that all future abilities should be equal or better.
If that were true, then there would be nothing but power bloat as all new abilities would be as good or better than older ones.
Yep. Balance to core.
Otherwise it's just a powerclimb.
I don't think I could have hoped for a better counter argument to the "Thundercaller" justification if I had put the words into Sean's mouth myself. It's good to see that my own logic lines up rather well with Sean this time. (It's nice to be on the agreement side from time to time, lol.)
I didn’t think that the 3 attack proposals I’d been kicking around were “massive damage”, but I guess that opinions on what’s “massive” for a bardic performance could vary a lot. Maybe it isn't a question of whether the ability would be overpowered but whether it fits what PDT wants for the archetype. If Bards want to do more concentrated touch attack damage I guess they can just get wands of Scorching Ray. It seems less thematic for a Sound Striker but should be about as effective “on average” (potential buffs are similar, some stuff has resist fire, other stuff has DR Weird Words can't beat. etc)
Anyhow, here are some comments on PDT’s proposal:
Action Economy - I don’t know if it has been clarified yet whether Bards can start multiple performances in the same round. For instance, could a 9th level Sound Striker use Weird Words as a standard action and then begin Dirge of Doom as a move action, or would “switching” performances cost a standard action (as one section of the rules implies)? Knowing this seems critical to understanding how changes to the action costs of their abilities would affect either archetype.
Resource Cost - After some initial "sticker shock" at the price of up to 10 rounds of bardic performance I’ve concluded that Sound Strikers probably won't often find themselves within 30 feet of 10 different enemies, especially at higher levels with larger enemies. Being near 2-6 seems more likely, and a cost of 2-6 BP rounds seems less outrageous.
Damage Scaling - PDT’s proposed damage scaling on Weird Words seems alright for an AoE replacement striking lots of foes though kind of lame against just 1 or 2. Adding 1d8 per 2 levels instead of per 4 levels would be nice for fights without hordes of enemies but might push the AoE-like use over the top.
Damage Type - If Weird Words did sonic damage since then it might serve as a nice way to bypass DR and get in at least a little damage on most foes (kind of like Magic Missile). This might make the ability more attractive despite the less than exciting damage potential.
@Mort - My preference would be to change Wordstrike to a ranged touch attack power and make Weird Words an AoE. Based on PDT feedback I'd guess that isn't a likely outcome though. If nothing else it might be too much of a change.
@MechE - I'm also glad that Sean mentioned he feels the Thunder Caller is too strong. I’m inclined to agree though I’m primarily concerned with the potential ability to spam a save vs stun. I’ve been hoping for a while now to see a ruling that Thunder Call can only be used once per round whether due to limitations on bardic performance in general or Thunder Call specifically.
@MechE - I'm also glad that Sean mentioned he feels the Thunder Caller is too strong. I’m inclined to agree though I’m primarily concerned with the potential ability to spam a save vs stun. I’ve been hoping for a while now to see a ruling that Thunder Call can only be used once per round whether due to limitations on bardic performance in general or Thunder Call specifically.
Well, I asked Patrick about it and he said "Yes, of course that's once per round." and then something about inspire competence. But no where I can link it.
It would seem that perhaps you can activate only a single bardic performance per round, no matter the action cost?
I think at this point, more FAQs won't help due to diminishing returns, and I know the design team is a wee bit busy right now, so I wouldn't expect anything until later. Maybe even January, since Sean has RPG SS.
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Bards can start multiple performances in the same round.
Resource Cost - a cost of 2-6 BP rounds seems less outrageous.
Damage Scaling - Adding 1d8 per 2 levels instead of per 4 levels ... might push the AoE-like use over the top.
Damage Type - bypass DR and get in at least a little damage
You can't do multiple bardic performances per round, so it already limited.
I think the round cost at 2-6 for most activations is fine. But to make that cost less there should be a trade off in power (less damage or targets or something similar.) Same goes for pushing the scaling to /2 instead of /4.
The DR issue is a balance factor. At almost 34 % of monsters compare to less than 2 % for sonic. Taking away the DR for Sonic should have a cost, in damage or targets or whatever.
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My only real issues with the ability as proposed by PDT is the resource cost and the speed of scaling. I would suggest instead of 1 BPR per ray, limiting it to 5 rays and having the resource cost scale based on damage. Something like:
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can use 2 rounds of bardic performance to start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with up to 5 rays of potent sound
per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. No target can be struck more than once.Each ray expends 1 round of bardic performance.These are ranged touch attacks.Each ray deals 1d6 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus. At 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level, the damage increases by 1d6 (5d6 total at level 18) and the performance expends 1 additional round of bardic performance (maximum 6 at level 18).
The bard chooses what type of damage each ray deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing). These rays count as magical weapons. This performance replaces suggestion.
I reduced the damage but made it scale slightly faster. I think this ability is something I could get behind. Thoughts?
It's not terrible but it's still a nerf and I'm of the opinion that a nerf is not needed. As I've said a few times, if he ability is changed at all, I'll just re-optimize my PFS bard into another class.
I agree, I think that the PDT needs to go back and really look at the math of the Sound Striker (as originally written) and see just how useful/useless the ability is.
At higher levels, it's only useful to clearing out mooks, and if it can target a single opponent with all 10 words, it's might see some use depending on the DR of the opponent. Almost any DR at all shuts down the original ability.
If the PDT doesn't want to look at the math, and wants to nerf the ability because of knee-jerk reactions, then I'm just going to wash my hands of this entire thread, re-write the class for my home games, and call it quits.
As it stands, the PDT is fixing to make this class completely worthless and it will never see play.
GG PDT.
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still a nerf ... not needed.
wants to nerf the ability ... wash my hands of this entire thread, re-write the class for my home games, and call it quits.
Can we work together to get some sort of agreement on the new ability? It is only a nerf if you read the original (unclear) ability as allowing single target focusing. In the mind of the PDT this proposed version is a boost.
PDT made it clear the intent was for it to be an AoE and not single target, so the new wording will make that clear.
I think RAuer2 expressed my own thoughts pretty much perfectly.
The current PDT version is not very strong, and the strength vs. resource intensiveness does not scale well. Compared to just Inspire Courage it does not seem particularly good for a normal party, especially (but before even) considering all the things a Bard can do with a standard action.
As I've said before, my thematic guideline is The Harpists scene from Kung Fu Hustle. They were great against single opponents, passable against groups, and were utterly destroyed once someone got up to them. One would assume they were higher level than their opponents, so I am fine with the eventual version being flat worse than an equivalent character who went archery (I can post my calculations if anyone cares, but according to my tests even a max-CHA Caster Bard with moderate Dex would be better served with a Shortbow against individual foes).
I'm fine with it being worse than archery, I just don't want it to be too much worse. The idea of musicians throwing music at enemies is incredibly cool. If the music does damage that isn't relevant in comparison to the rest of the party, it is not cool. I don't care if I'm 10%, 20%, even 30% worse than an archer with identical skills, I want my super optimized character to be able to be able to be passable in compraison the Harpists in an AP/PFS scenario because, even if it requires to-the-hilt optimization, it is awesome. The current PDT version is very weak for groups and extraordinarily weak for single targets, without even addressing the level 3 ability. I think, and hope, that something awesome and balanced can be made out of the theoretical idea of the Sound Striker.
There are many ways to make the ability meaningful, integral part of a character. I do not feel that the PDT version is one of these, being a very weak AoE and a meaningless single strike. The Sound Striker already loses enhancement bonus, Inspire Courage, and likely Arcane Strike (depending on errata) on their Weird Words, they aren't inherently an overpowered ability. With the current versions, I don't see much reason to use Weird Words instead of a Bow (even, mathematically, for a Caster Bard). Wordstrike lets me destroy (no attack, no range, no save, increasingly inevitable damage) holy symbols, component pouches, and other non-weapon/armor/shield magic items at my leisure, which is inherently unbalanced until we get to the GM/Player arms race of "everyone has 30 holy symbols!" I have no idea how it could be errated to be meaningful in comparison to Inspire Competence, and strongly feel it would be a good sacrifice for making Weird Words an iconic and meaningful ability.
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I have zero interest of re-working this ability to making it useless.
I know SKR is just acting 'the voice of the PDT' so I am not trying to attack him. But! the PDT keeps using 'remember, this replaces Suggestion, a non-combat ability with a combat ability and should be equally as powerful' as an excuse for not making Weird Words good.
So, with that in mind, lets analyze what other Bard classes replace Suggestion with. Also of note, is what the archetypes doesn't replace mass suggestion and it's debatable whether or not a Sound Striker can use mass suggestion without possessing suggestion.
This ability replaces suggestion.
Summon Nature's Ally: At 1st level, the animal speaker adds summon nature’s ally I to his bard spell list and bard spells known as a 1st-level spell. At 4th level (when he gains access to 2nd-level spells) he adds summon nature’s ally II to his spell list and spells known as a 2nd-level spell, and so on every 3 levels thereafter, until 16th level when he adds summon nature’s ally VI to his 6th-level spell list and spells known.
This ability replaces mass suggestion.
So in lieu of Suggestion, the Animal Speaker can summon up to 3d3 rat swarms. Pretty cool ability as Swarms deal typeless damage, are immune to weapon damage, and auto-hit. In replace of Mass Suggestion, the Animal Speaker gets Summon Nature's Ally 1 - 6 added to his spell list and, more importantly, spells known. Both Summons are in combat and out of combat abilities, unlike Mass/Suggestion. Published in Ultimate Magic.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Mass Bladethirst (Su): An arcane duelist of 18th level or higher can use his bladethirst performance to enhance the weapons of as many allies as desired within 30 feet. The bonus provided by this power is +4 if conferred on two allies, +3 for three allies, +2 for four allies, and +1 for five or more allies. The power granted to each weapon must be identical.
This ability replaces mass suggestion.
Free stacking enhancement bonuses for your weapons? SWEET.
Free stacking enhancement bonuses for your allies? AWESOME!
Published in Advanced Player's Guide.
Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, an archaeologist gains trap sense +1, as the rogue class feature of the same name. This bonus improves by +1 for every three levels gained after 3rd, to a maximum of +6 at 18th level.
Rogue Talents: At 4th level, an archaeologist gains a rogue talent. He gains an additional rogue talent for every four levels of archaeologist gained after 4th level. Otherwise, this works as the rogue’s rogue talent ability.
Evasion (Ex): At 6th level, an archaeologist gains evasion, as the rogue ability of the same name.
Advanced Talent: At 12th level, and every four levels thereafter, an archaeologist can choose an advanced rogue talent in place of a rogue talent.
This archetype replaces all performances for a luck bonus on attack, damage, skill checks and saving throws, and for rogue talents, evasion and advanced talents. Meh.
Published in Ultimate Combat.
This ability replaces suggestion.
Pedantic Lecture (Su): At 18th level, an archivist can affect as many creatures with lamentable belaborment as he currently has fascinated. In addition, he may choose to cause targets to fall asleep rather than be dazed or confused.
This ability replaces mass suggestion.
Archivist replaces a non-combat ability for a similarly powered non-combat ability.
Published in Advanced Player's Guide.
This ability replaces suggestion.
Mass Song of Surrender (Su): This ability functions just like song of surrender but allows a buccaneer of 16th level or higher to affect all enemies within 30 feet. Enemies within range of this effect still receive a saving throw. Mass song of surrender is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language-dependent ability that relies on audible components.
This ability replaces mass suggestion.
This replaces Suggestion, a non-combat ability, with the a combat ability that is able to force people to drop their weapons, and lie prone. Powerful, but non-damaging (though it puts enemies at a serious disadvantage).
Published in Pirates of the Inner Sea.
This ability replaces suggestion.
Righteous Cause (Ex): At 18th level, the demagogue can lift a crowd’s emotions and turn them toward a common purpose. First, he must fascinate the crowd, and then use incite violence without designating a target, at which point he can use righteous cause. Instead of driving the crowd with anger, he fills them with purpose. Fascinated creatures must make Will saves (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Charisma modifier) to resist. Those who fail are affected by mass suggestion of a plausible idea that lingers with them for one day. Typical uses of this ability are to spark rebellion, overthrow a king, build a beneficial structure such as an orphanage, or donate money to a cause.
This ability replaces mass suggestion.
The Demagogue replaces Suggestion/Mass Suggestion with a more violent suggestion that can also give people the benefits of rage. I guess these are about equal to Suggestion/Mass Suggestion.
Published in Ultimate Magic.
This ability replaces suggestion and mass suggestion.
This replaces a non-combat ability with the ability to self-buff with a scaling haste spell. Sweet!
Published in Ultimate Combat.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Mass Slumber Song (Sp): At 18th level, a sandman can use slumber song to affect any number of fascinated creatures within 30 feet. Otherwise, this ability functions like mass suggestion.
This performance replaces mass suggestion.
Replaces an out of combat ability, with another out of combat ability. Sleep is less versatile than Suggestion, but more deadly than Suggestion.
Published in Advanced Player's Guide.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Battle Song (Su): At 18th level, a savage skald can affect all allies within 30 feet when using performance to incite rage.
This performance replaces mass suggestion.
Give your allies the benefits of the Rage spell, or let your Barbarian ally rage without consuming rage rounds. Even make an entire army rage!
Thematically cool, but potentially disruptive depending on the party composition.
Published in Advanced Player's Guide.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Call the Storm (Su): At 18th level, a sea singer can use performance to duplicate control water, control weather, control winds, or storm of vengeance, using his bard level as the caster level. Using this ability requires 1 round of continuous performance per level of the spell (as if he were a druid). These effects continue for as long as the bard continues performing (the effects of control weather happen immediately), but not longer than the spell’s normal duration.
This performance replaces mass suggestion.
So Suggestion gets replaced with a puff of air, I guess it can be used to clear out obscuring mist and similar effects... but Mass Suggestion gets replaced with powerful spells that are well above the power of either it's replaced abilities.
Published in Advanced Class Guide.
Success renders the target immune to this power for 24 hours. The thundercaller cannot target herself with this ability. If the target has the rage class feature, it can instead immediately rage and stay in this rage without consuming rounds of rage per day as long as the thundercaller continues performing. This mind-affecting effect requires audible components.
This performance replaces suggestion and mass suggestion.
Make people rage just like the Savage Skald, though you don't get the 'mass rage' like the Skald does.
Published in Varisia, Birthplace of Legends.
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So we have 11 archetypes other than the Sound Striker that replace Suggestion. 6 of them gain in combat abilities in return, ranging from stacking enhancements, to powerful weather control spells, to mass rage spells.
With the exception of the Thundercaller and Buccaneer, they are all published in the core rule book line. So replacing Suggestion with summons, free stacking weapon enhancement, scaling haste effect, rage spells and weather spells are all 'core' changes that are combat choices.
So Weird Words must do pitiful damage because it replaces Suggestion (and renders mass suggestion unusable), but other Archetypes can freely enhance their weapons, gain free haste (that gets better as he levels) or gain access to a 4th, 5th, 7th and 9th level spells (each of which only costs 1 bardic performance), or enhance whole armies via rage.
Odd design choices there PDT.
As I've said before, my thematic guideline is The Harpists scene from Kung Fu Hustle. They were great against single opponents, passable against groups, and were utterly destroyed once someone got up to them. One would assume they were higher level than their opponents, so I am fine with the eventual version being flat worse than an equivalent character who went archery (I can post my calculations if anyone cares, but according to my tests even a max-CHA Caster Bard with moderate Dex would be better served with a Shortbow against individual foes).
I totally forgot about this scene. Harpist Scene for those who are curious.
That is an amazing example of a Sound Striker and I wonder if it wasn't the inspiration for the archetype in the first place.
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10 baddies, or about 17 points each. I'm just... underwhelmed.
They are not happy with the ability to be used as a single target potent ability or something that can be used every round of combat for good damage.
So we end up with something that isn't all that effective.
This is why I'm advocating for something that isn't damage. Something that could maybe be effective. Like a Fort save or be dazed for 1 round that uses the same number of bardic performance rounds.
awesome and balanced can be made out of the theoretical idea of the Sound Striker.
I think that is a tall order if damage is the end result. There is just too far a void between where some want it to be ("awesome") and where it was supposed to be ("minimal AoE effect") to bridge.
Odd design choices there PDT.
I'd actually call it consistent. None of them deal damage (even mediocre damage.)
This again falls back to my idea of "Fort or daze for 1 round" idea. Non-damaging thing that can be combat effective.
convert performance rounds into what is essentially a direct damage spell.
Which turns into 30 new 2nd level spell slots if it is Scorching Ray damage level with 1 round per use.
Odd design choices there PDT.I'd actually call it consistent. None of them deal damage (even mediocre damage.)
This again falls back to my idea of "Fort or daze for 1 round" idea. Non-damaging thing that can be combat effective.
Except they want to replace the non-combat ability with a 'weak' combat ability. Many of the things they've replaced suggestion with, are strong combat abilities.
An Arcane Duelist can add free enhancements to it's weapon that stacks with existing enhancements, similarly to the Magus or Paladin.
A Dervish Dancer gets an additional attack, bonus to attack, bonus to ac and bonus to reflex saves. Except for the attack, all the bonuses scale with the Dancer's level.
The Animal Speaker is hugely beneficial as it adds Summon Nature's Ally spells to the list of spells known automatically. It also lets the Bard summon swarms which many creatures can have a very difficult time dealing with.
The Sea Slinger can call down acid rain, hail storms and lightning bolts, all of which deal damage, over a huge area. A Sea Slinger is a veritable God of Weather.
All of the above are a lot more powerful than suggestion in a combat setting, and far more powerful than the PDTs proposed changes.
To post again, this was my proposed change for Weird Words, and I think it would be a change that would satisfy the most people.
This just occurred to me.
Since Mass Suggestion is 'technically' rendered useless as the Sound Striker doesn't actually have Suggestion anymore, we could replace Mass Suggestion with an ability that splits the damage dice up.
word burst should cover more area as well.
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Except they want to replace the non-combat ability with a 'weak' combat ability. Many of the things they've replaced suggestion with, are strong combat abilities.
Strong but not damage.
The fewer used per day, the more adding an effect looks attractive.
Does that seem closer to a middle ground type of solution?
I did a lot of math on Scorching Ray in this thread earlier, and frankly it is way better than the PDT proposal. Therefore, I don't think it will every be something they would sign off to do.
I do like you idea of a daily limit, like 3/day or similar.
To be honest, I think the "1 word per performance" could be traded for a daily limit.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with up to 1 ray of potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet.
No target can be struck more than once.
This ability may be activated 3 times per day and each activation expends 1 round of performance.
These are ranged touch attacks.
Each ray deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus. At 10th, 14th, and 18th level, the damage increases by 1d8.
The bard chooses what type of damage each ray deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing). These rays count as magical weapons.
This performance replaces suggestion.
word burst should cover more area as well.
In a way, it does. By firing more words, it does affect a larger 'area' in the sense more people get hit. But, in my proposal for Weird Words, the range on the attacks scales slightly with the bards level. At 20 ft. + 10 ft. per 4 bard levels, the base range when a Bard unlocks the ability is 30 ft. and then 40 ft. at 8th, 50 ft. at 12th, 60 ft. at 16th and 70 ft. at 20th.
Tels, it really does seem like Scorching Ray is used by a number of people as a base to examine what Weird Words could become. What I posted mostly came from an idea that Cheapy posted in a different thread and I admit I forgot about your suggestion from earlier in this thread.
I adopted the Scorching Ray design because so many people were hemming and hawing about it and figured, "Why not just translate it over directly?"
I think it works out great. It deals more damage than the Thundercaller's Thundercall, but not so much damage as to make martials or archers feel jealous. If I recall correctly, at 20th level, if you target one enemy with all 5 attacks, it averages 70ish points of damage with a max of 120 and a minimum of 20. It also costs 5 rounds of performance to do, so it's not like Bards will be spamming it left and right, but it would still see some use.
I think scorching ray is pretty reasonable actually... Its not like he's proposing gate here. If you wanted to play a bard that focused on it you would still need to make a pretty massive feat investment (weapon feats for rays, several extra performance feats, etc...) and you wouldn't really be what I would call a damage dealer. It would make for an interesting route to take if you wanted to make your bard more focused on casting with support features.
Regardless, I would still look at using it outside of current performance restrictions. I would find the inability to use inspire courage super frustrating.
@Tels: I didn't notice the increase in range increment. That would work fine.
It deals more damage than the Thundercaller's Thundercall,You don't seem worried that Thundercall is "WAY too good" and your request in in effect "I want better than WAY too good"?
No, I don't think the Thundercaller is "WAY too good" I think the Sound Striker needs to be equal to the Thundercaller as a 'bardic performance damage dealing archetype'.
Thundercaller has scaling damage and a save vs stun on it's Thundercall, it can also call down lightning bolts ala call lightning/greater call lightning.
What makes Thundercaller's Thunder Call ability good, is not it's damage, or it's save vs stun, it's the progressively faster activation.
That's it.
At 13th level, the Thundercaller can, as a swift action, activate Thunder Call to deal 5d8 points of sonic damage (average 22.5) + save vs stun.
At the same level, my proposed Sound Striker can unleash 3 attacks, each dealing 4d6 points of sonic damage (average 14 damage per word, average 42 damage if all words target the same enemy) as a standard action. So they are both about equal, in that the Sound Striker deals more damage, but has no stun, and uses up a standard action; while the Thundercaller does less damage, has a chance of stun, and can still make a full attack or cast a spell.
I would even say the Thundercaller has the better ability, simply because it's a swift action vs a standard action. However, the damage of Weird Words is enough that it would still feel useful, especially to a melee bards that don't have a ranged weapon. A ranged bard is unlikely to use Weird Words unless their archery is completely negated by DR, in which case it could fall back on the weaker Weird Words that deal sonic damage.
[Edit] As an aside, a malee or archer Bard can make use of Thunder Call as a part of their full attack. An Archer Thundercaller can blast and fire a bunch of arrows at the same time, while the Sound Striker would have to pick one or the other.
[Edit Strikes Back] I forgot to mention, the Weird Words I proposed would use up 3 rounds of performance, while the Thundercaller only uses up 1 round of performance.
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And we've come back to scorching ray...
I played with the PDF proposed change at a game tonight. At level 10, 2 uses of the ability used 12 of my 30 BPR. Worse still, several party members requested I stopped using it since it wasn't doing much damage and just inspire.
Afterwards I asked the table what they felt and everyone - including the GM said I should change my character for next week's game. Even without the saves it was a lot of dice to resolve and ultimately didn't benefit the party.
We were doing Curse of the Riven Sky and I was out of all of my spells by the end and used a 3rd of my BPR on WW before being asked to stop. In the final rounds of the last fight I basically just stood around and tried not to get killed since I was out of spells and out of BPR (yes for 3 rounds I couldn't even Inspire).
So if this is the way the ability is going Imma need a wand of magic missile or a rebuild...
Except they want to replace the non-combat ability with a 'weak' combat ability. Many of the things they've replaced suggestion with, are strong combat abilities.Strong but not damage.
Also, I should point out this comment from SKR/PDT:
Keep in mind that weird words is replacing the suggestion bardic performance, which is a weak ability of the base class and not something you could normally use in combat (as fascinate requires the target to be fascinated, and that effect doesn't work if there is combat nearby to distract them). So this archetype replaces a non-combat ability (suggestion) with a combat ability (weird words), so weird words can't be a strong combat ability because that would be a significant powerup for this archetype (replacing a non-combat ability with a combat ability, and replacing a weak ability with a strong ability).
Any archetype that replaces suggestion with a 'strong combat ability' is 'significantly powered up'.
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Let me say if it has to be as weak as Scorching Ray, then I'd rather it inflict a status than bother trying to deal damage.
Otherwise, I'd rather they just remove the archetype entirely--I'd prefer that to leaving a trap option lying around where people who think fighting with sound is cool (like me) might fall.
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And we've come back to scorching ray...
I played with the PDF proposed change at a game tonight. At level 10, 2 uses of the ability used 12 of my 30 BPR. Worse still, several party members requested I stopped using it since it wasn't doing much damage and just inspire.
Afterwards I asked the table what they felt and everyone - including the GM said I should change my character for next week's game. Even without the saves it was a lot of dice to resolve and ultimately didn't benefit the party.
We were doing Curse of the Riven Sky and I was out of all of my spells by the end and used a 3rd of my BPR on WW before being asked to stop. In the final rounds of the last fight I basically just stood around and tried not to get killed since I was out of spells and out of BPR (yes for 3 rounds I couldn't even Inspire).
So if this is the way the ability is going Imma need a wand of magic missile or a rebuild...
Thank you!
I know the PDT values playtest results over that of theorycraft, so maybe now they will see reason.
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No, I don't think the Thundercaller is "WAY too good" I think the Sound Striker needs to be equal to the Thundercaller as a 'bardic performance damage dealing archetype'.
Ok, I didn't ask what you thought of Thundercaller. I asked if you were aware you are asking for something you have all but been told you won't get. Apparently you are aware.
Afterwards I asked the table what they felt and everyone - including the GM said I should change my character for next week's game.
Three times have I had a player want to be a Sound Striker in games I've ran or played since the book was printed. All three times it was made clear the ability is an AoE and not Single Target ability. Only the "role player" party face guy took it anyway and the other two picked a non-Bard "damage dealing" class instead.
So I have the opposite experiences of yours. Where the players all rejected the "blast for good damage frequently" Bard. It is interesting that people pick out the Sound Striker for this "job" and not Thundercaller. I've yet to have a player want to play a Thundercaller.
Let me say if it has to be as weak as Scorching Ray, then I'd rather it inflict a status than bother trying to deal damage.
I think getting to the Scorching Ray from the PDT redesign might be hard to do in a balanced way.
I also think delivering a status instead of damage would help this ability be better, but few are interested in talking about that and would rather talk about how to get to "deal enough damage to be impressive" instead.