Sound Striker - Wierd Words Ability questions


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Sovereign Court

James Risner wrote:
Neume wrote:
Afterwards I asked the table what they felt and everyone - including the GM said I should change my character for next week's game.

Three times have I had a player want to be a Sound Striker in games I've ran or played since the book was printed. All three times it was made clear the ability is an AoE and not Single Target ability. Only the "role player" party face guy took it anyway and the other two picked a non-Bard "damage dealing" class instead.

So I have the opposite experiences of yours. Where the players all rejected the "blast for good damage frequently" Bard. It is interesting that people pick out the Sound Striker for this "job" and not Thundercaller. I've yet to have a player want to play a Thundercaller.

I have no clue what you are talking about. I'm talking about the ability as proposed by the PDT. That's what I played yesterday and that's the feedback received.

Also if no one wants to play the archetype shouldn't that be a sign that something is wrong...

Regardless, I have another game today and going to give it another run. I'll post the results later.

Dark Archive

James Risner wrote:
So I have the opposite experiences of yours. Where the players all rejected the "blast for good damage frequently" Bard.

How is that the opposite experience? He was asked to stop playing the revised Sound Striker because it is an awful AoE burst for low damage and high cost. Your players apparently felt the same way about the original ability when you told them that it was AoE only. They stopped playing it. Sounds like almost the same experience.

Also, which bard is the "Blast for Good Damage Frequently" Bard? The original Sound Striker limited to only one sound per target does 1d8+Cha for about 9-10 damage a turn, hardly "Good Damage". The PDT revision let's you burn through your sounds even faster for almost the same damage which could hardly be considered "Frequently" or even "Good Damage".


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James Risner wrote:
Tels wrote:
No, I don't think the Thundercaller is "WAY too good" I think the Sound Striker needs to be equal to the Thundercaller as a 'bardic performance damage dealing archetype'.
Ok, I didn't ask what you thought of Thundercaller. I asked if you were aware you are asking for something you have all but been told you won't get. Apparently you are aware.

I am also aware that I am expressing disappointment with the official PDT suggestion for the ability. So, I'm also asking for something different, or as you put it, for "something you have all but been told you won't get." The proposed ability isn't finalized. If it was, PDT would announce that and probably close the thread. I don't regret expressing disappointment or offering feedback and I don't think it is futile or rude to do so as long as everyone, including me, is polite about it.

Neume - Thank you for playtesting. While one experience is not enough to make rock solid conclusions, the results were interesting. I am interested in seeing how your second playtest goes.

James Risner wrote:

I think getting to the Scorching Ray from the PDT redesign might be hard to do in a balanced way.

I also think delivering a status instead of damage would help this ability be better, but few are interested in talking about that and would rather talk about how to get to "deal enough damage to be impressive" instead.

I would like to talk about this.

I think you are right that getting Weird Scorching Word-Ray as an official change, and one that seems balanced, would be hard to do. So, what do you think about this?

1) Problem: Weird Words competes with Inspire Courage and the Sound Striker has both. Idea: Disconnect them. The new Weird Words still replaces suggestion but is no longer considered a bardic performance. Even if this version of Weird Words remains a standard action, this still means it can be used in the same round as Inspire Courage. Now a Bard can contribute to the party *and* contribute with Weird Words.

2) Problem: Damage is an issue that makes is difficult to find consensus. Idea: Add a save vs a debuff. What if the enemy had to save vs the effect of the metamagic feat Concussive Spell? That would be -2 on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks. This would blend with the idea of the Bard as a "party helper" by debuffing enemies (while being able to also use Inspire Courage due to A, above).

3) But what would the damage be? Keep the PDT proposal of 1d8+Cha that increases by another 1d8 at 10th, 14th, and 18th. No save for the damage; the target would save only to avoid the debuff effect from Concussive Spell. Make it sonic energy to fit with the theme of adding the effect of Concussive Spell.

4) What is the save? Make it 10+1/2 Bard level+Charisma, so it scales up like the saves for bardic performance abilities.

5) What about that duration for the debuff? Concussive Spell states that duration equals spell level, but we don't have a spell level. Idea: If the target fails a save, the debuff lasts for a number of rounds equal to the number of d8's taken. Fail a save vs a 2d8 Weird Word? Debuffed for 2 rounds. The debuff does not stack with itself but the duration would be extended by additional applications.

6) Is it still a ray? Yes.

7) What is the range? Close (25 feet plus 5 feet for every two full caster levels).

8) How many Weird Words do I get? One at 6th, up to two at 10th, up to three at 14th, and a max of four at 18th. This matches the progression from number 3.

9) Can I hit one target with multiple Weird Words? No. We give that idea up in exchange for two things: 1) the ability to Weird Words and Inspire Courage at the same time and 2) the debuff effect from Concussive Spell. Also note there is no save for the damage, only to avoid the debuff (per number 3 and also the PDT proposal uses no save for the damage as well).

10) Does it count as type of Bardic Performance at all? No. Not for anything. This is what allows us to use Inspire Courage in the same round we use Weird Words.

11) Does it still uses performance rounds as fuel? It doesn't have to. Option 1) Yes it does use rounds of bardic performance. One round of performance for each Weird Word used. Yes, this would mean burning through performance rounds if we want to Inspire Courage and use Weird Words together. Option 2) No it does not use round of bardic performance. It is a supernatural ability with a number of uses per day tied to the Bard's level. I don't know what would be balanced here, so I'll suggest 1 use per two full Bard levels as a starting idea (so, 3/day at 6th, 4/day at 8th, and so on). Each use would create your maximum number of Weird Words, whatever your maximum is. Of those two options, I like option 1 I think it would encourage me as the Bard to make decisions about how to spend my resources wisely.

12) What about DR? Number 3 suggests making the damage sonic, so no more DR. If the monster is resistant to Sonic, well, use another tool to attack it.

13) What about SR? Weird Words would remain a supernatural ability and would not be subject to SR (like the original and the PDT proposal).

What do you think? Does this seem reasonable while also integrating a debuff rather than focusing on single target damage?


Ace of the Flesh Puppets wrote:
James Risner wrote:
So I have the opposite experiences of yours. Where the players all rejected the "blast for good damage frequently" Bard.

How is that the opposite experience? He was asked to stop playing the revised Sound Striker because it is an awful AoE burst for low damage and high cost. Your players apparently felt the same way about the original ability when you told them that it was AoE only. They stopped playing it. Sounds like almost the same experience.

Also, which bard is the "Blast for Good Damage Frequently" Bard? The original Sound Striker limited to only one sound per target does 1d8+Cha for about 9-10 damage a turn, hardly "Good Damage". The PDT revision let's you burn through your sounds even faster for almost the same damage which could hardly be considered "Frequently" or even "Good Damage".

This isn't even taking into account DR, which all but negates the damage entirely.

James seems to have a vastly different opinion of what 'good damage' is than every one else.

The PDT at least as has an excuse, because they want to replace Weird Words with a 'weak combat ability' because it replaces Suggestion. Which, I say again, is odd because they've replaced Suggestion with much stronger combat abilities in the past.


Regarding the “Scorching Ray” based proposals, since they seem to have come up again, I thought that maybe 3 words at around the power of Scorching Ray would be a happy medium that folks could compromise on. I checked the numbers, and it seemed like it was in the same ballpark as both an optimized archer and somebody using a wand of Scorching Ray. I guess some folks might feel that matching the damage of archers or wand slingers isn’t something the Sound Striker archetype should aspire to though. If so there’s no math I can perform to change how people feel and what their personal opinions are. I think Sean's recommendation to refresh our ideas was probably a hint that we're on a road to nowhere. Also, when he posted the original PDT rewrite again I thought he might have been implying, “The final ability should be really close to this template.” Maybe I'm reading more into things than I should, but I kind of doubt it.

Anyhow, Regarding PDT's proposed ability, it might be unreasonable to judge it based on the rather unoptimized case of 2d8+8 at 10th level. That 10th level Bard using PDT’s Weird Words might actually do 2d8+12 for an average of 21 damage with Point Blank Shot and Arcane Strike. At 11th level he could add Discordant Voice for an extra +1d6, pushing the average damage up to 24.5. That’s not bad compared to other AoE options a Bard that level might have (such as a wand of Fireball). I think the AoE-like function of PDT’s proposal actually seems pretty solid.

I agree that 10 rounds seems like a very high cost, but chances are that you’ll rarely be within 30 feet of 10 foes, and even then you’d have the option to use fewer words if you’d like. I guess part of the problem might be that folks aren’t quite convinced that 1 word is worth 1 round of bardic performance (action economy costs aside). Honestly, I think that 1 round for 2 words would be a better cost structure, but that could cause trouble with the “1 word per target” rule if you had an odd number of enemies. Allowing up to 2 words per target would fix that, but it might bring back concerns about “massive damage”. Unfortunately it also might make the AoE-like effect over the top with 40 damage per target against up to 5 targets (even assuming we removed PDT's damage scaling in favor of stacking two 1d8+Cha words)

My math tells me that at 11th level a "reasonably optimized" PC would have around the following expected Damage Per Round (single foe/multiple foes):
PDT Weird Word DPR ~ 24.5/245
Two 1d8+Cha Words per Target DPR ~ 40/200
Three 1d8+Cha Words Total DPR ~ 60/"
Bard Archer DPR (+3 shortbow) ~ 48.45/"
Bard Archer DPR (+1 holy shortbow) ~ 58.5/"
Hasted Bard Archer DPR (+3 shortbow) ~ 61.75/"
Bard with CL11 wand of Scorching Ray DPR ~ 64.5/"
Hasted Bard Archer DPR (+1 holy shortbow) ~ 74.1/"
Ten 1d8+Cha Words per Target DPR ~ 200/" (probably more like 120-130 after Fort saves)

Obviously the 2 or 3 word stacking attacks would have some advantages over archery in that they'd allow some movement and wouldn't require Haste to be at peak effectiveness (not that Haste is hard to get via boots). They'd also have drawbacks in that you'd need to be within 30 feet, would have trouble with metallic and alignment based DR, and (most significantly) couldn't help the rest of the party with your other bardic performances. I'd guess that PDT coming off the "one word per target" stance is pretty unlikely at this point, but I figured I'd do a rundown on the relative damage for the various options which have been proposed.

Devilkiller’s Archery Math:
The recommended AC of a CR11 foe is 25, so an “optimized” Bard archer might look like:
Attack: BAB+7 Dex+6 Bow+3 InspireCourage+3 PBS+1 RapidShot-2 = +18/+18/+13 (70%/70%/45%)
Damage: Bow+3 Arrow+3.5 Str+2 ArcaneStrike+3 Discordant Voice+3.5 InspireCourage+3 PBS+1 = 19 (Double on first attack due to Many Shot)

If we double the 70% for the first shot that’s 140% damage, add in the other 115% and we’re at 255% damage, and 2.55 times 19 is 48.45. If you added Haste (perhaps as a free action from some boots) the archer would pop up to about 61.75 DPR. That’s 50% more DPR than the Sound Striker, and the archer should find it easier to beat some (though not all) common types of DR. I guess the archer is also limited to a single shot in the first round since he has to start Inspire Courage, but the Sound Striker might need to spend that round moving into range too. At 13th level the archer can start Inspire Courage as a swift action but would have to wait a round for Arcane Strike. The easiest way to boost the archer's damage is probably to go with a +1 bow with a couple of +1d6 abilities or holy for +2d6 instead of the +3 bow. That would reduce the chance to hit by 10% but would also add +7 average damage, lifting the non-Hasted damage total to 58.5 and the Hasted damage total to 74.1. Most of these extra damage die abilities are ineffective against certain foes, but it is hardly crazy to assume that the Bard might have a Sor/Wiz or Cleric in the party willing to cast Greater Magic Weapon on the bow to get the plus back up so little or nothing is lost against foes who don't take the extra d6 damage.

By comparison, an optimized version of PDT’s proposal would also have DPR around equal to its average “optimized” damage of around 24.5 (2d8 plus Cha+8 PBS+1 ArcaneStrike+3 Discordant Voice+3.5) That’s about 40-50% of the expected DPR for the archer, which is why I’d kind of like to see something which might make that use more compelling, whether it is sonic damage to help bypass DR, increased damage, etc. I guess it is possible PDT simply wants this to be an AoE focused power though. For instance, while I’ve sometimes seen players use Fireballs on single foes most of us realize that isn’t very smart compared to Scorching Ray. Wordstrike for 1d4+11~13.5 but halved to 6.25 average damage against living foes isn’t really a viable alternative.

The often mentioned wand of Scorching Ray would do 4d6+3+1+1d6 (PBS+1 ArcaneStrike+3 Discordant Voice+3.5), average 21.5 per ray with 3 rays totaling 64.5

@James Risner - I don’t think that your idea of adding a “rider” effect with a Fort save is necessarily a bad one. I feel like the effects you’ve been proposing, such as nauseated and dazed, seem very strong though. I could more easily get behind a less crippling effect like staggered. Based on Sean's input about Thunder Call I'd imagine that adding dazed to Weird Words would probably make it “way too good” just like Thunder Call. The per target damage of the two abilities already seems roughly similar if optimized (at least around 11th level)

@Bigdaddyjug - After pages of debate you should know that I’m in favor of the Sound Striker having significant single target damage potential. There’s no way that PDT will allow it to have 10 words per target though. A moderately optimized 11th level Bard with 10 words could do about 200 damage. Even with Fort saves 120-130 of that would probably get through. Since he's attacking the foe’s regular AC instead of touch AC, the same Bard with a shortbow would probably end up closer to 60 damage. You're essentially asking PDT to double your damage output for giving up Suggestion. I don't believe that's really going to happen. As Darth Vader might say, "Search your heart. You know it to be true."

@RAuer2 - I think PDT might agree to let it be sonic damage, or they might agree to include a debuff effect. I'd be surprised if they went for both. Allowing it to be combined with other performances seems like a pretty major benefit too.


Little note on your math Devilkiller, Discordant Voice can't be used to augment a wand of scorching ray.

My 'Scorching Ray' proposal should be amended that it is 'not' a weapon, and therefore doesn't benefit from PBS, Arcane Strike, Good Hope, Inspire Courage, Discordant Voice etc.


RAuer2 wrote:
So, what do you think about this?

This I would play :-)

Your point 11 - if it's disconnected frm Bardic Performance, it should be completely disconnected, and become a uses/day ability. Maybe 2/day at 6th, plus 1 for every 3 levels after (effectively level/3 +1), or just level/3


@Tels - Maybe I’m mistaken that Discordant Voice would work on Scorching Ray (as Inspire Courage does), but I don’t think that it being a wand vs a spell you cast would make any difference. Can you explain why it should?

Anyhow, if it is really true that Discordant Voice wouldn’t work with a wand you could save some gold buy a Ring of Spell Knowledge Type III for 13,500gp and put Scorching Ray in it. Then you could cast Scorching Ray as a 3rd level spell and maybe even use a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Empower/Maximize to boost your damage.

While figuring out what kind of total damage that might result in I noticed that I forgot to add Inspire Courage to the Scorching Ray damage before. I can’t edit my old post for some reason, so I’ll post the corrected damage list here:

PDT Weird Word DPR ~ 24.5/245
Two 1d8+Cha Words per Target DPR ~ 40/200
Three 1d8+Cha Words Total DPR ~ 60/"
Bard Archer DPR (+3 shortbow) ~ 48.45/"
Bard Archer DPR (+1 holy shortbow) ~ 58.5/"
Hasted Bard Archer DPR (+3 shortbow) ~ 61.75/"
Bard with CL11 wand of Scorching Ray DPR ~ 64.5/"
Hasted Bard Archer DPR (+1 holy shortbow) ~ 74.1/"
Bard with CL11 wand of Scorching Ray DPR ~ 76.5/"
Bard with Ring of Spell Knowledge (Scorching Ray) DPR ~ 76.5/"
Bard with Ring of Spell Knowledge (Scorching Ray) and LMR Empower DPR ~ 94.5/"
Bard with Ring of Spell Knowledge (Scorching Ray) and LMR Maximize DPR ~ 106.5/"
Ten 1d8+Cha Words per Target DPR ~ 200/" (probably more like 120-130 after Fort saves)

If Discordant Voice and Scorching Ray end up being incompatible I guess we can shave 10.5 damage off the Scorching Ray variations, but they’ll still be near the top of the damage chart. Honestly the ring and the rod methods start pushing towards the same ballpark as 10 words per target, but the Bard has made a very significant gold piece investment by then unless he or a party member has item crafting feats. I’ll grant that it might be worth taking a crafting feat or two to help attain that sort of damage output. You wouldn’t need some of the feats an archer might, for instance.

I’d expect that folks might feel this says more about the Ring of Spell Knowledge than it does about Weird Words. I’m just floating some math out there.


My mistake, I had a total brain fart and I'm not sure why I thought it didn't work.

Sovereign Court

so I played again yesterday with the PDT version. We played The Elven Entanglement PFS Scenario and my Bard is now level 11 with a 28Cha and 39 rounds of BP. I've also picked up a Ring of Wizardry I.

The first fight I ended up using most of my BP in about 3 rounds. I still had all my spells. It was effective because it knocked out a group without killing them (we needed them alive but they were attacking us while we were fighting something else). But I was unable to inspire during that time, which the party felt sucked. Though that situation sucked for us and we didn't have any other casters in the group.

Later after rest, I didn't find much need for the ability choosing to use my evocation spells, specifically ear-piercing scream (aka the best bard spell ever), sound burst and thundering drums. There was one instance where the party was placed in a way that I couldn't get an AoE off so I used WW. Ultimately I was so low on BPR that I decided not to use it again after that, but that use helped clear out smaller minions.

Afterward the feedback I got from the party was that they'd prefer Inspire, though due to spacing and the situation the first uses were pretty much required. The last use was probably a mistake on my part. I think thundering drums would have been better and then I could just channel afterwards. But hindsight, you know.

The GM (who has played with this character before the change) still felt there was a lot of rolls for not a lot of damage. He brought up the critical point and I quote: "With all the bard spells you have, I don't understand this ability having such an exorbantly high cost and small effect. True, sound burst would have taken a few more rounds to take down the elves but the elves would probably be stunned the whole time too. Add to that the fact that inspire would have still been up and I just don't get the point. If that's the keystone ability of the archetype they should just scrap the whole thing because it's nothing more than a trap. And that doesn't even begin to get into the problem of dice. This ability still rolls 30 dice... Sound burst uses what, 11? And is much more effective. I just don't get the point."

I have another game tonight. I'll report back afterwards.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Neume wrote:
I have no clue what you are talking about.

It isn't important, I was talking about how people wanted to build characters around the ability before the redesign.

RAuer2 wrote:

1) Weird Words competes with Inspire Courage

2) Damage ... makes is difficult to find consensus. Idea: Add a save vs a debuff.

3) No save for the damage; the target would save only to avoid the debuff

4) What is the save? Make it 10+1/2 Bard level+Charisma

5) What about that duration for the debuff?

6) Is it still a ray? Yes.

7) What is the range?

8) How many Weird Words do I get?

9) Can I hit one target with multiple Weird Words? No.

10) Does it count as type of Bardic Performance at all? No

11) Does it still uses performance rounds as fuel? a) Yes 1 round/target b) No 3/day

12) damage sonic, so no more DR.

13) What about SR? supernatural ability and would not be subject to SR

Nice points! Thanks

1) This alone has value, significant value. Is it worthwhile? I think so. Personally I think if you have an ability that doesn't last, uses performance rounds, and you retain Inspire Courage then you should be able to use the instantaneous ability without breaking IC.

2) I don't think the powerup of damage and debuff is acceptable.

3) Back to our old problem, so this flatly isn't very likely to happen at all. The whole old problem is "attack to hit and save for half" and we won't be going back there.

4) Switch to a save, 10 + 1/2 Bard + Cha is fine, no attack roll. No damage. Just debuff.

5) 1 performance per target if harsh at 1 round duration (Daze or Nausea) or 1 performance per target if minor (shaken etc) at 1d6 rounds.

6) If it has a save it must not be a ray.

7) I think 30' is fine, upping it to Close range would much more range. There are very few area spells below 6th level that have more than 30' range. I'm curious why you feel the range should be increased at little or no cost? I guess if the save was for Shaken then range wouldn't matter. But if the save is for Daze then the range matters a lot.

8) I'm fine with up to 10 based on rules set in above answers.

9) No

10) Depends on if it blocks lingering or not. I prefer it doesn't.

11) It uses rounds or is limited to 3 per day.

12) We are back to the major power up world. Switching from DR to Sonic is a huge boost.

13) SU abilities ignore SR.

Tels wrote:

James ... vastly different opinion of what 'good damage'

PDT replaced Suggestion with much stronger combat abilities in the past.

It is true that I share PDT's view on what is 'good damage'.

We also disagree whether or not they have made any strong combat abilities.


James Risner wrote:
Tels wrote:

James ... vastly different opinion of what 'good damage'

PDT replaced Suggestion with much stronger combat abilities in the past.

It is true that I share PDT's view on what is 'good damage'.

We also disagree whether or not they have made any strong combat abilities.

You actually don't. PDT wants to replace suggestion with a 'weak' combat ability. So any 'weak' combat ability isn't going to be dealing 'good' damage.

If you don't think they haven't replaced Suggestion with a strong combat ability in the past, then you seriously need to go back and actually read the abilities replaced. Either that or you have no concept of what is or is not 'strong'.

If they nerf Weird Words as much as the PDT is proposing, then they need to just delete the entire archetype. Period. You are otherwise intentionally introducing trap options that will be completely useless.

Wordstrike is already completely awful already. Someone mentioned using Wordstrike to 'sunder' wands, and other items.

Wands wrote:
Physical Description:A wand is 6 to 12 inches long, 1/4 inch thick, and weighs no more than 1 ounce. Most wands are wood, but some are bone, metal, or even crystal. A typical wand has Armor Class 7, 5 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 16.

So your typical wand is hardness 5 with 5 hp. Wordstrike deals 1d4 + level to an object. However it's automatically halved (energy damage) and then it has to overcome hardness.

A 10th level Bard deals 1d4+10 points of damage (average 12.5) and against a wand, it deals 6.25 point of damage. So, on average, it deals 1 hp of damage to a wand. The 10th level bard could probably spit on it and deal more damage.

At 20th level, you deal an average of 22.5 points of damage, or 11.25 points of damage against an object. You are only just barely able to break a f&%!ing wand using Wordstrike at 20th level!

So, the PDT wants to change out a moderately useful ability, for a weak one, with the net result of the class having a worthless Wordstrike and a trap-filled Weird Words.

Expect to never see this archetype see play again.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Devilkiller wrote:

Sean ... might have been implying, “The final ability should be really close to this template.”

Sean's input about Thunder Call I'd imagine that adding dazed to Weird Words would probably make it “way too good” just like Thunder Call. The per target damage of the two abilities already seems roughly similar if optimized (at least around 11th level)

I also read it as "make close to this".

To be clear, I'm advocating no damage (no attack roll) and simply a Save or Debuff effect. Not a rider.

Neume wrote:
This ability still rolls 30 dice

How?

Tels wrote:
Either that or you have no concept of what is or is not 'strong'.

None of them deal 80% of optimized Archery damage. None of them even deal direct damage (only indirect by adding + to hit etc.)


@Neume - Thank you again for the playtest feedback. I appreciate your efforts and I hope the PDT does as well (and is doing their own playtesting).

James Risner wrote:


RAuer2 wrote:
*stuff*

Nice points! Thanks... *More stuff*...

Not all, but much of what you wrote seemed to just restate what I typed. I think perhaps I am not the right person to assist in sorting out altering the ability to include an effect. At this point, perhaps the best course of action is simply looking at playtest reports, like Neume's, to see what the feedback from that is.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

RAuer2 wrote:
looking at playtest reports, like Neume's, to see what the feedback from that is.

His may not be the best reports, as it is coming from a high level Bard who has been using the ability in the original form with the unintended boost of allowing multiple strikes to the same target. So to be fair, it is lowering damage from 140 to 200 to down to 24 damage.

There is going to be understandable unhappiness from GM and players both in that situation.


24 Damage for a high level anything is always going to be disappointing. The ability is weak. Period.

I'm not saying that is not what the developers want--they might--all I'm saying is that it will make zero players happy except possibly for those who hate Bards and never want them to deal threatening levels of damage.

Weird Words need to deal better damage than an average bard's turn could deal without expending resources (arrows don't count) or else the archetype is a trap and would do better to simply not exist at all.


Just want to point out that any effect given to this ability will start to interact with lingering performance. Not that it's necessarily bad...

As I mentioned earlier, I like the idea suggested above to try and keep it from stopping other bardic abilities (specifically inspire courage). Though one answer for Neume's bard is to use lingering performance to keep inspire courage up during rounds your using Weird words (though it becomes expensive in actions to restart it).

I like James' idea to give it an effect. Perhaps cutting down the damage to the same as wordstrike, but otherwise using the PDT model (except I'd still like to exempt it from interrupting performance, ideally) and give it an effect that's flavored based on the type of damage inflicted. I do like the suggestion fielded to just make it sonic, so having just one effect could be considered (or perhaps a better one if you single target, like Daze, and a minor one, like shaken, if you multitarget, as was already suggested).

Dark Archive

I'm just going to leave this tidbid here..... >_>

Unless there's already been some kind of revision, you can do sneak attack damage with weird words. The easiest way to pull that off would be to start grabbing ninja levels once you've got a sufficient amount of weird words spam available for the day. Is it broken? Why yes, yes it is. HORRIBLY broken. The kind of broken where if the bard/ninja goes first, there is no boss encounter. Because he just killed it four times over. Oh, and you can forget about the saves. The targets can make their saves all day long. It doesn't halve the sneak attack damage, only the actual weird words damage. Have nice day.


The Beard wrote:

I'm just going to leave this tidbid here..... >_>

Unless there's already been some kind of revision, you can do sneak attack damage with weird words. The easiest way to pull that off would be to start grabbing ninja levels once you've got a sufficient amount of weird words spam available for the day. Is it broken? Why yes, yes it is. HORRIBLY broken. The kind of broken where if the bard/ninja goes first, there is no boss encounter. Because he just killed it four times over. Oh, and you can forget about the saves. The targets can make their saves all day long. It doesn't halve the sneak attack damage, only the actual weird words damage. Have nice day.

If a character wanted to do that, he could just go Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster so he can cast a Scorching Ray + Quickened Scorching Ray (with as many bonus damage such as empower, maximize etc) to have 6 attacks at 4d6 fire damage + 6d6 sneak attack damage on each ray. This totals 24d6 fire damage and 36d6 sneak attack damage and averages 84 fire damage and 126 sneak attack damage. Mind you, this requires a 14th level character to pull off, but a potential 210 average damage right off the bat is nothing to sneeze at.

To top it off, he's effectively an 11th level wizard, and can sneak attack with fireballs, lightning bolts, walls of fire etc.

Dark Archive

Nah, fireballs won't work. You can't sneak attack off something without an attack roll. Other than that, what you've suggested is actually quite astute. Particularly when one considers that they will have access to greater invisibility by that point, meaning they can just rapid fire sneak explosion. ... Exactly why I never built that character when I realized it would work. LOL.

It's a lot easier to pull that off on the bard, if somewhat less reliable in some ways (and will not deal as much damage). Even bearing all these things in mind, including the obvious superiority of your suggested build, I still have to facepalm at the lawlworthy damage I've seen a ninja bard crank out.


My mistake, I was thinking of the Surprise Spells capstone for the Arcane Trickster.

Surprise Spells wrote:
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

Surprise Spells FAQ

FAQ wrote:

How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?

The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.

—Jason Bulmahn, 05/31/11

It's worth noting, that at 14th level in the above build, the Arcane Trickster is only 2 levels away from the capstone.

[Edit] Hmm.... this is making me want to roll up a Rime Spell Arcane Trickster that uses Wall of Fire in the surprise round to get the Sneak Attack + entangle.


The Beard wrote:

I'm just going to leave this tidbid here..... >_>

Unless there's already been some kind of revision, you can do sneak attack damage with weird words. The easiest way to pull that off would be to start grabbing ninja levels once you've got a sufficient amount of weird words spam available for the day. Is it broken? Why yes, yes it is. HORRIBLY broken. The kind of broken where if the bard/ninja goes first, there is no boss encounter. Because he just killed it four times over. Oh, and you can forget about the saves. The targets can make their saves all day long. It doesn't halve the sneak attack damage, only the actual weird words damage. Have nice day.

Yay! Someone hasn't read the thread!

Silver Crusade

Off topic, you also only get sneak attack dice on 1 of your rays no matter how many you fire as of a recent FAQ.

On topic: Looks like I've got a PFS character with a scenario's worth of credit I can turn into anything I want. R.I.P. Zaigan the Outspoken!


James Risner wrote:
RAuer2 wrote:
looking at playtest reports, like Neume's, to see what the feedback from that is.

His may not be the best reports, as it is coming from a high level Bard who has been using the ability in the original form with the unintended boost of allowing multiple strikes to the same target. So to be fair, it is lowering damage from 140 to 200 to down to 24 damage.

There is going to be understandable unhappiness from GM and players both in that situation.

I might have missed it earlier in the thread, but I could not find a reference that Nueme made about his Bard's archetype, whether Sound Striker or a different archetype or even having no archetype, before his recent playtests.

Before disregarding his playtest feedback, let's check with Nueme to see what his Bard was before the playtests began.

Nueme -

I think it would help to know more about your Bard before and after the playtest began.

A) What archetypes, if any, did your Bard have before the playtest?

B) If your Bard was already a Sound Striker, was your group using the "single target is ok" interpretation of the original Weird Words ability?

C) Other than adding the Sound Striker archetype if the Bard did not already have it, what other changes were made to the Bard before the playtests began?

A common element in both the first and second playtest posts you have made is that is the party (and the GM) requested more Inspire Courage. I think it would be helpful to understand what expectations the rest of the players have for the Bard based on prior gaming sessions.

D) In general terms, can you briefly tell us what your Bard's role was before these playtests? (For example, something like "Inspire Courage and archery" or "Inspire Courage and spells" or "Inspire Courage and a reach weapon")

Does anyone have additional questions we could ask Nueme about his playtests to help us interpret the feedback he is receiving and passing along?

Sovereign Court

James Risner wrote:


Neume wrote:
This ability still rolls 30 dice
How?

10 x d20

10 x 1d8
10 x 1d8
_________

30 Dice.

James Risner wrote:
RAuer2 wrote:
looking at playtest reports, like Neume's, to see what the feedback from that is.

His may not be the best reports, as it is coming from a high level Bard who has been using the ability in the original form with the unintended boost of allowing multiple strikes to the same target. So to be fair, it is lowering damage from 140 to 200 to down to 24 damage.

There is going to be understandable unhappiness from GM and players both in that situation.

Thanks for discounting my experience. Much appreciated.

FYI, except for the GM I played with on Saturday, all the players and GMs I played with this weekend have never played with this bard. He is my original PFS character that I shelved because of the Weird Words ability being confusing and too much of a hassle.

Kwauss wrote:

Just want to point out that any effect given to this ability will start to interact with lingering performance. Not that it's necessarily bad...

As I mentioned earlier, I like the idea suggested above to try and keep it from stopping other bardic abilities (specifically inspire courage). Though one answer for Neume's bard is to use lingering performance to keep inspire courage up during rounds your using Weird words (though it becomes expensive in actions to restart it).

Lingering Performance does not work the way you are saying.

Core Rulebook wrote:
The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

And since this is a type of bardic performance per the Ultimate Magic Book.

Ultimate Magic wrote:
A sound striker gains the following type of bardic performance. Neither performance can be performed more quickly than a standard action.

You cannot use Lingering Performance to keep Inspire Courage up while starting another performance. The only way to have 2 performances up at once is Virtuoso Performance which, by definition, would require you to use a 4th level spell every round you use this ability.

Finally I played again last night (Words of the Ancients) and never used the ability. There was just one point where it would have been more useful than my Evocation spells: Chord of Shards, Ear-Piercing Scream, Sound Burst, Thundering Drums or Discordant Blast. In the last battle, I ran out of spells and that was the only time I considered using the ability. However, I found it more useful to pull out my Wand of Cure Light Wounds and heal our melee combatants. This actually worked to the party's advantage since our Barbarian would have went into negatives the round before the boss died if I hadn't healed him with a whopping 4 hit points before he got hit by the boss that round.

Sovereign Court

RAuer2 wrote:


Nueme -

I think it would help to know more about your Bard before and after the playtest began.

A) What archetypes, if any, did your Bard have before the playtest?

This bard was my first PFS character and has been a Sound Striker since level 1. He's focused on casting, his feats are: Noble Scion of War, Spell Focus: Evocation, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Extra Performance, Discordant Voice

RAuer2 wrote:
B) If your Bard was already a Sound Striker, was your group using the "single target is ok" interpretation of the original Weird Words ability?

This is a Pathfinder Society character and I don't really have a "regular" group. Mostly I've played this character at conventions. I'm the Venture Lieutenant for Long Beach and the past 3 days have had a lot of games so I decided to give him another spin with the proposed rules.

RAuer2 wrote:
C) Other than adding the Sound Striker archetype if the Bard did not already have it, what other changes were made to the Bard before the playtests began?

None, though as I said I gained a level Friday and purchased a Ring of Wizardry I and retrained Combat Casting into Extra Performance for more performance rounds. I also picked up Discordant Voice as my level 11 feat.

RAuer2 wrote:
A common element in both the first and second playtest posts you have made is that is the party (and the GM) requested more Inspire Courage. I think it would be helpful to understand what expectations the rest of the players have for the Bard based on prior gaming sessions.

I play a lot of bards. Like... all but one of my 8 PFS characters are bards. In my experience, whenever a bard sits down at a table the expectation is he is going to be Inspiring Courage. Maybe this is just a Los Angeles thing though.

As for the players, while I play with them a lot, we have over 80 members in our lodge so this weekend I played with a random assortment of 12 (though the group on Friday was co-workers who aren't actually Long Beach Pathfinder Society members).

RAuer2 wrote:
D) In general terms, can you briefly tell us what your Bard's role was before these playtests? (For example, something like "Inspire Courage and archery" or "Inspire Courage and spells" or "Inspire Courage and a reach weapon")

Lately I've been playing my Arcane Healer Bard, he's a charlatan who fools people into believing he's a cleric of the God Bob; and my Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) / Fighter (Lore Warden) / Bard (Thundercaller) he's a Pirate Captain with a Thrush pet, but don't call him a Pirate! Both buff heavily before engaging in combat (Inspire Courage, Good Hope, Haste). Both are over level 10 as well.

I also have my Bonekeep Bard (Thundercaller), he's my Tier 1 DPS optimized Bard for surviving the harsh conditions of Bonekeep. But, he really only comes out for conventions.


Neume wrote:
RAuer2 wrote:
Nueme - *...stuff...

Neume - Thank you for providing more specifics. Also, I can't believe that I had your name right in front of me and couldn't spell it right. My bad.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

mplindustries wrote:
Weird Words need to deal better damage than an average bard's turn could deal without expending resources

That is the root problem. The damage needs to be limited or expend significant resources otherwise it is a big power up.

The Beard wrote:
weird words ... sneak attack

You would only get the Sneak Attack damage on one attack in the volley.

Neume wrote:

10 x d20, 10 x 1d8, 10 x 1d8

Thanks for discounting my experience. Much appreciated.

have never played with this bard.

bard sits down at a table the expectation is he is going to be Inspiring Courage. Maybe this is just a Los Angeles thing though.

I apologized, I assumed something that wasn't true. I assumed you had played that character with them previously.

I love it when a bard IC's, but my experience is that most don't. Most try to do melee or ranged damage. At least most of the ones I've played at the same table.

Neume, care to playtest with my version? No damage and no attack, just a save or be dazed (or nauseated)? DC = 10 + 1/2 Bard + Cha Fort Save for 1 round and uses 1 round of Bardic Performance and doesn't end Inspire Courage (but you would need Lingering Performance to not have IC end.)


James Risner wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Weird Words need to deal better damage than an average bard's turn could deal without expending resources
That is the root problem. The damage needs to be limited or expend significant resources otherwise it is a big power up.

I think you read that sentence as:

Weird words, without costing resources, needs to deal better damage than an average bard's turn could deal.

However, what was intended (and I was grammatically correct, though I can see how it would be confusing):

If the average bard can deal X damage in a round without expending resources, then Weird Words (which does expend resources--Bardic Performance rounds) needs to deal more than X damage.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

mplindustries wrote:
If the average bard can deal X damage in a round without expending resources, then Weird Words (which does expend resources--Bardic Performance rounds) needs to deal more than X damage.

Sorry, what I sort of mean is that if the Bardic Performance is as good as you describe it is too good.

Sovereign Court

I want to be sure we're all clear

Neume wrote:

Lingering Performance does not work the way you are saying.

Core Rulebook wrote:
The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

And since this is a type of bardic performance per the Ultimate Magic Book.

Ultimate Magic wrote:
A sound striker gains the following type of bardic performance. Neither performance can be performed more quickly than a standard action.
You cannot use Lingering Performance to keep Inspire Courage up while starting another performance. The only way to have 2 performances up at once is Virtuoso Performance which, by definition, would require you to use a 4th level spell every round you use this ability.

IF the new ability is NOT a bardic performance (because we want it to stack with IC), than there is no need for Lingering Performance. IF it IS a bardic performance, than it CANNOT be used with Lingering Performance. As soon as the second performance effect starts the first one ends.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Off topic, you also only get sneak attack dice on 1 of your rays no matter how many you fire as of a recent FAQ.

Wow, just looked that FAQ up, and it is a stupid ruling.

Archer rogue can get sneak attack on each arrow fired in a full attack, but a Scorching Ray only gets sneak attack on one ray... why?

Archer's have neigh-infinite arrows (multiple efficient quivers) while casting Scorching Ray (from a staff, wand, spell slot etc) expends limited use resources. Sure, the 210 damage seems great on paper, but Scorching Ray is fire damage (one of the most commonly defended against elements), and has SR.

Well, as a side note, I will *not* be upholding this FAQ in my games, that's for sure.

As for the original idea (sneak attack on Weird Words), I would imagine the limit of 1 sneak attack on simultaneous spells would transfer over to Weird Words, though it's possible I could be wrong.

===================================

Neume, I see that you have a Thundercaller and Sound Striker Bard in play, and you mentioned you retired the Sound Striker because of the confusion and hassle of running the original Weird Words. I'm assuming you played the Sound Striker to 11th, and shelved him.

As best as your memory can provide, how did the original Sound Striker perform when compared to your Thundercaller? Also, how did the original Weird Words damage work over all? As your levels went up, and DR became more common, did you find yourself using Weird Words much or at all? How about against people you knew didn't have any DR, would you use it then? If so, how frequently?

I kind of want to pick your brain on this issue as you are the only person I recall actually 'playing' a Sound Striker in this thread. Others mentioned having seen them in play, and that the multiple dice were a big hassle, but I don't recall, off the top of my head, of anyone else that is still posting having actually played one.


Why are you bothering to make comparisons that are of no use in defining this new ability? PDTs have said Thundercaller (at least one ability) is broken.


I haven't chimed in many because I'm just waiting to see what the design team says. For the record, I have a player in my Carrion Crown campaignwho is playing a Sound-Striker/Dirgesinger Archetype. Since the group is melee-centric, the Weird Words ability occasionally gives the PCs some ranged options over the limited spell-power of their Magus and Oracle. Things that have stopped it from being used much:

-The Fortitude save (which is fixed)

-Lack of situations where its a better action for a support class to go on the "attack". Its usually a better move for her to pitch a "Save or Suck" than to waste an action to possibly do small damage.

-DR negating a lot of the effectiveness of the ability.

There have been two situations in the whole AP where the bard actually got to 'break bad' with weird words, throwing 8-10 sounds per turn versus the mobs of mooks that are present in the middle adventures. While both situations made her feel kind of good about the ability, the same thing could have been achieved with the Magus tossing a Fireball.

Now that the damage has been upped, I am curious to see how this plays out in the game. Again, DR's gonna ruin a lot of the ability's effectiveness (wish it was typed as magic or sonic), but she has Point-Blank, Precise Shot, and a good Charisma (20), so throwing 10+ 2d8+5 blasts seems okay instead of suggestion. Not saying that the fix is everything I want, but its a step in the right direction.


James Risner wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
If the average bard can deal X damage in a round without expending resources, then Weird Words (which does expend resources--Bardic Performance rounds) needs to deal more than X damage.
Sorry, what I sort of mean is that if the Bardic Performance is as good as you describe it is too good.

I don't understand this at all. Am I correct that you are saying a Bard should be able to deal more damage without expending any resources whatsoever than they could deal with a Bardic Performance that expends resources?

Really? I don't...I can't...what!?


Rakshaka wrote:

I haven't chimed in many because I'm just waiting to see what the design team says. For the record, I have a player in my Carrion Crown campaignwho is playing a Sound-Striker/Dirgesinger Archetype. Since the group is melee-centric, the Weird Words ability occasionally gives the PCs some ranged options over the limited spell-power of their Magus and Oracle. Things that have stopped it from being used much:

-The Fortitude save (which is fixed)

-Lack of situations where its a better action for a support class to go on the "attack". Its usually a better move for her to pitch a "Save or Suck" than to waste an action to possibly do small damage.

-DR negating a lot of the effectiveness of the ability.

There have been two situations in the whole AP where the bard actually got to 'break bad' with weird words, throwing 8-10 sounds per turn versus the mobs of mooks that are present in the middle adventures. While both situations made her feel kind of good about the ability, the same thing could have been achieved with the Magus tossing a Fireball.

Now that the damage has been upped, I am curious to see how this plays out in the game. Again, DR's gonna ruin a lot of the ability's effectiveness (wish it was typed as magic or sonic), but she has Point-Blank, Precise Shot, and a good Charisma (20), so throwing 10+ 2d8+5 blasts seems okay instead of suggestion. Not saying that the fix is everything I want, but its a step in the right direction.

Keep in mind, that your Sound Striker/Dirgesinger is also going to be expending 1 round of bardic performance per word. So in that one 'breaking bad' scenario where the Bard was unleashing 8-10 words a round, the Bard would also be using up 8-10 rounds of bardic performance per round as well. Meaning the Bard is likely only able to keep that up for 2-4 rounds before running out of rounds of bardic performance.

You mentioned it's nothing the Magus couldn't do with a Fireball, but with the proposed changes, it'd be like the Magus expending 1/3 of all of his spells to unleash a Fireball as cast by a 5th level wizard.


Yeah, not a fan of the 'sound per round' limitation, though to be fair, she has never ran out of rounds of Bardic Peformance in situations before. I imagine that's going to change. Also, a lot of the Bard's "End your performance to do this awesome effect" spells have kept her from using the ability in the first. It seems like an ability where as the DM, I'm forced to come up with situations where the ability is useful.. which as I've said has happened twice in over 70+ encounters.

Sovereign Court

Tels wrote:

Neume, I see that you have a Thundercaller and Sound Striker Bard in play, and you mentioned you retired the Sound Striker because of the confusion and hassle of running the original Weird Words. I'm assuming you played the Sound Striker to 11th, and shelved him.

As best as your memory can provide, how did the original Sound Striker perform when compared to your Thundercaller? Also, how did the original Weird Words damage work over all? As your levels went up, and DR became more common, did you find yourself using Weird Words much or at all? How about against people you knew didn't have any DR, would you use it then? If so, how frequently?

I kind of want to pick your brain on this issue as you are the only person I recall actually 'playing' a Sound Striker in this thread. Others mentioned having seen them in play, and that the multiple dice were a big hassle, but I don't recall, off the top of my head, of anyone else that is still posting having actually played one.

I kind of agree with Kwauss and others who keep pointing out that PDT already said Thunder Call is too powerful. I'd hazard an easy bet we'll see an errata on that with this change as well. So there is really no fruit in rehashing comparisons there.

In my personal experience, when I was playing the old version no one, including a Paizo rep and 2 VCs ever said it couldn't be used all on the same target, so I don't know that feedback on the ability as I used it is relevant.

On another topic I do want to point out one area of great strength the ability has, unlike other AoEs WW is in the unique position of not needing to worry about positioning. Meaning with sound burst I had to worry about hitting fellow players. On more than one occasion a fellow player has said hitting them with SB was fine only to realize later that I'm not a bard to be triffled with as they spend the next round dazed. Recently this led to a player death. WW doesn't really have that problem.

The more I think about it the more I think the ability should be granting you charges which cost a large amount of BPR but are expended over rounds. Such as for 10 BPR you get 1d8 of damage per 4 levels to lob at someone or multiple someones every round for 10 rounds. This is like call lightning in its intent and the target gets a reflex save to negate (not just halve) damage.

This way for a high upfront cost I could have something to do on rounds that I'm not needed to heal or something. It wouldn't deal a huge amount of damage but maybe it could keep the versatility. And using the ability would be a long term investment not an every round expenditure.


Neume wrote:

I want to be sure we're all clear

Neume wrote:

Lingering Performance does not work the way you are saying.

Core Rulebook wrote:
The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

Oops, thanks.

Sovereign Court

So after some thinking, I realized changing this ability into something that has uses per day and/or just adds a condition, really defeats the point of the ability. Remember the PDT wants to have an ability that uses BPR and deals damage, however pitiful. So I was thinking maybe there is a marriage in the middle.

Quote:

Weird Words (Sp): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with up to 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. No target can be struck more than once. Each sound expends 1 round of bardic performance.

Each sound deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus and makes the target stumble, giving the target a -2 dodge penalty to AC for 1 round. At 12th, and 18th level, the damage increases by 1d8 and the dodge penalty increase by -1. The target may attempt a reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's levels + Charisma bonus), a successful save avoids the damage and the dodge penalty.

Weird Words negates all Inspire Courage effects for 1 round.

This performance replaces suggestion and mass suggestion.

The idea here is the bard is actually shooting sounds at people who have a chance to dodge the effect. The bard has few abilities that call for reflex saves, so this would actually be a nice addition to the bard's wheelhouse of abilities. If the bard is going up against undead, this is a great go to ability.

Adding the dodge penalty gives the ability the basic effect of Inspire Courage, without being Inspire Courage. Of course the party loses the damage bonus, making Inspire Courage cheaper and more appealing, BUT this ability deals damage as well to even things out. I also made it so it negates any Inspire Courage effect in play so if there is more than one bard, they cannot double dip - since the intent here is the abilities basically give the same bonus. It also can be used as a great counter tool for bard vs bard combats (though too rarely seen).

It is now a spell-like ability so using it provokes an attack of opportunity, as well as it is now subject to spell resistance.

Since it now has a debuff effect I lowered the damage progression. It is now balanced around Inspire Courage in a 6 person party (this may be too high for the PDT, but this is currently what PFS is balanced around so...). It advances a level slower than inspire. IC is +2 at 5th (potential damage of 12), +3 at 11th (pot dam of 18), +4 at 17th (pot dam of 24). WW at 6th level the average damage (23 CHA) is 10.5. At 12th the avg damage (27 CHA) is 17. At 18th the avg dam (30 CHA) is 23.5.

I still feel it may be too expensive, but I think this type of ability is very situational, making the cost worth it in the right situations but not making it a go to ability every round due to cost.

Also, we never really cleared up what happens to mass suggestion with this archetype, this does.

Edit: I want to point out the average damage of WW is LOWER than potential damage from IC AND it costs WAY more. I think the tradeoff is pretty fair since, in reality IC's potential damage is probably lower, but the ability cost is significantly lower as well.


Maybe now that the playtest is over we will get some more input or a resolution for this?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Tels wrote:
Maybe now that the playtest is over we will get some more input or a resolution for this?

Sadly, it seems everyone wants something different out of the ability or wants something the Devs won't consider.


Which is why maybe we could get some more input.

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:
Tels wrote:
Maybe now that the playtest is over we will get some more input or a resolution for this?
Sadly, it seems everyone wants something different out of the ability or wants something the Devs won't consider.

Not quite. Everyone wants something out of the ability that is worth the cost, or to have the cost appropraiet for what it provides.

At present, the definition of each word has to strike a different target, and that each word costs a round of bardic performance, but does negligable damage that is subject to DR, to many of us, seems to not be a worthwhile investment for the cost. Especially since it ends any other bardic performance, like Inspire Courage, and you cannot start a new song in the same round, even if you aree at a level where a new song would be only a swift action.

In summary:
Replaces Suggestion ability, so it cannot be as powerful as a true combat ability.
Each target can only be affected by a single Word per use.
Each Word is fairly minimal damage, and can be affected by DR.
Each Word costs a round of Bardic Performance to use.
Any round this ability is used, no other Bardic Performance from this bard can be in effect for the rest of the round.
Each use of this ability takes a Standard action, no matter what action other bardic performances take to start.
The only thing this ability does is a fairly weak attack per target.

Overall, as presented, the errataed/better defined ability does is fairly lackluster, unless you are playing in a game where the majority of encounters are minion-heavy.

Single BBEG? As presented, you are probably better off pulling out a sling, at least that way you still get to contribute to your allies' ability to hit and do damage.

Sling: 1d4+1(Str) +2 (Inspire Courage) B
+2 damage per ally attack
Word: 1d8+7 P, B or S
Reduce allies' chance to hit by 10% for all attacks, -2 damage per ally per attack

Nominally, the Word will do 6 points of damage more, but, overall, the loss of Inspire Courage is probably going to cost your party more than that in damage in a round. And that is in comparison to a sling, not a bow.

With a bow, the difference is probably even more dramatically weighted against the Word, unless you have more minions than bow shots in a round.

So, overall, I, at least, am just asking for an ability that has some sort of utility, and would be used more than once in 15 scenarios.


I agree with kinevon. If, ultimately, the Weird Words (and Wordstrike) were worth their activation cost, no matter how much that cost is, I'd use it.

As it stands, there is, really, only one situation that I can think of where the proposed changes would be useful. That is when a higher level Bard needs to wipe out a bunch of very low CR enemies (like goblins) that are intermingled with the party. I say intermixed with the party because, otherwise, the party could just drop a fireball to take them out.


Tels wrote:

I agree with kinevon. If, ultimately, the Weird Words (and Wordstrike) were worth their activation cost, no matter how much that cost is, I'd use it.

As it stands, there is, really, only one situation that I can think of where the proposed changes would be useful. That is when a higher level Bard needs to wipe out a bunch of very low CR enemies (like goblins) that are intermingled with the party. I say intermixed with the party because, otherwise, the party could just drop a fireball to take them out.

What do you think an ability in line with Suggestion would be, that would be worthwhile?


Cheapy wrote:
Tels wrote:

I agree with kinevon. If, ultimately, the Weird Words (and Wordstrike) were worth their activation cost, no matter how much that cost is, I'd use it.

As it stands, there is, really, only one situation that I can think of where the proposed changes would be useful. That is when a higher level Bard needs to wipe out a bunch of very low CR enemies (like goblins) that are intermingled with the party. I say intermixed with the party because, otherwise, the party could just drop a fireball to take them out.

What do you think an ability in line with Suggestion would be, that would be worthwhile?

Fairly certain you were involved in the Inquisitor playtest, so I'll say what was mentioned there. Balancing the combat ability of the Inquisitor to the combat ability of the Rogue just holds the class back.

Comparing the combat strength Weird Words to suggestion is a fools endeavor, because Suggestion has no combat strength. It doesn't function without fascinate, which, by design, is automatically negated by combat.

However, comparing the combat strength of Weird Words to that of the social strength of Suggestion is how it should be done.

In a social setting, Suggestion is extremely powerful. It's power is really only limited by that of the imagination of the player, and the cooperation of the GM.

Just got done watching it with my nephews, so I'll use Aladdin as an example. Consider how Jafar was influencing the sultan using his staff. When Aladdin bursts in and confronts Jafar, the spell is broken.

This is much like the fascinate/suggestion ability of the standard bard. He was fascinating the sultan, and then implanting suggestions to force the Sultan to follow his orders. Notice how the sultan wasn't under 'control' of Jafar, like Dominate Person, or even Charm Person, could do.

Using just those bardic performances, a bard could establish himself as a 'vizier' or advisor, court wizard etc, to the King. With that close proximity, he could become a power behind the throne.

Socially, fascinate and suggestion are very powerful abilities. In combat, they're worthless.

I think that the relative strengths of the abilities should be compared to it's strength in the settings it was intended, instead of in the settings for which it wasn't.

[Edit] This was what I've posted before as an ability, and compared to the relative strength of Suggestion, I think it fits.

Tels wrote:

To post again, this was my proposed change for Weird Words, and I think it would be a change that would satisfy the most people.

Tels wrote:

Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can unleash potent sounds to attack his foes. He may unleash 1 sound for every 4 bard levels he posses as a ranged touch attack that deals 4d6 points of sonic damage. The bard may unleash all the sounds at a single opponent, or multiple opponents, but all sounds are unleashed at the same time. These sounds have a range of 20 ft. increasing by 10 ft. every 4 bard levels. Each sound costs 1 round of bardic performance to unleash.

This ability replaces suggestion.

This just occurred to me.

Since Mass Suggestion is 'technically' rendered useless as the Sound Striker doesn't actually have Suggestion anymore, we could replace Mass Suggestion with an ability that splits the damage dice up.

New Idea wrote:

Word Burst (Su): A sound striker can opt to halve the damage on his weird words, to unleash twice as many words as normal. Doubling the amount of words makes the attacks less accurate, unleashing the words in a more chaotic burst. A target can only be struck by one attack when using word burst, due to the loss of accuracy.

This ability replaces mass suggestion.

Liberty's Edge

Okay, I just have to throw my two coppers in.

If everyone is seeking for a fair ability by everyone's standards, it isn't going to happen. That being said, the only problem still seems to be running rampant is the problem with the bard doing massive amounts of damage for only one round of BP.

If we really wanted to make it a fair ability I have only two suggestions to what the PDT wrote, and one debatable change.
1) Make the words automatically connect and have no save for reduced damage.
2) Change the damage to sonic in order to reduce chances for DR.
3?) Allow for all the words to hit one opponent. If a bard is willing to spend a third of their BP rounds in one go, then why not reward them with the ability to devastate an enemy?

If these rules were employed, then despite each word costing a round of bardic performance each word would be automatically be worth it, if only for the automatic damage that would be inflicted. I know this will get negative feedback, but I think that these simple changes would make it a worthwhile power while still keeping it from becoming anywhere near 'too powerful'.

Grand Lodge

So, bumping this since it fell to the third page, due to silence on the subject.

Any word yet from the PDT on what the Weird Words ability should be errataed into?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I too would like to know, so I know if I need to drop the archetype from my bard.

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