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So, last night (9/24/2013), I had a player ask me about the Rhino Hide Armor (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/armor.html#_rhino-hide) for his animal companion.
The question as, on his animal companion's pounce attack, since it's initiated by a charge, does it get the +2d6 damage on all 5 of it's attacks?
I found some information on this, and I am reading that the general consensus is yes (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n60e?Rhino-Hide-Pounce).
This is how I understand it, from my readings:
1) Charge - +2 to attack, -2 to AC
2) Pounce - on a charge, a creature with this gets it's full attack (in this case, 5 attacks: Bite, 2 Claws, Rake). Because of Charge, each of those attacks gets the +2 bonus
3) Rhino Hide Armor - deals +2d6 damage on any successful charge attack performed by the wearer
Is that how everyone else is reading this?
Thanks in advanced!
It seems to be fine by RAW, but sounds questionable by RAI.
Perhaps this would be in need of an FAQ stamp?
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The Lance/Charge/Pounce part of this could be interpreted as the idea that only the first attack would get the Rhino Hide bonus damage.
This is for PFS, right?
Short answer: no
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o0h8?Player-wants-his-animal-companion-to-have #24
As specific armor, it cannot be changed or customized to make into barding. You couldn't have Celestial Armor barding either, for example.
You cannot make Rhino Hide into barding, since it is a named magic item.
EDIT: BAH! Everyone beat me to it by a few seconds.
HERE is the appropriate ruling from Mike Brock.
I had a pouncing druid locally, whom I told that he would be allowed one bonus from the armor per charge, rather than per attack. It isn't the letter of the law, but the price of the item is too low for it to provide +10d6 per round.
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I had a pouncing druid locally, whom I told that he would be allowed one bonus from the armor per charge, rather than per attack. It isn't the letter of the law, but the price of the item is too low for it to provide +10d6 per round.
So, how was the druid getting rino hide armor? If he was wild-shaped, the armor merged with him when he polymorphed, as there is no wild rino hide armor. There is also no barding allowed, so he couldnt have put on the armor after polymorphing either.
The only possibility I see is a Barbarian with the Greater Beast Totem rage power, and in that case, rules forum is your answer :P
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I had a pouncing druid locally, whom I told that he would be allowed one bonus from the armor per charge, rather than per attack. It isn't the letter of the law, but the price of the item is too low for it to provide +10d6 per round.
If you enforced this on my barbarian, I would refuse to sit at your table. There is nothing indiciating it shouldnt work with all of the attacks on a pounce, so you should not disallow it from doing so.
He argued that he should still have the +2d6 when it was merged with him since he wasn't wearing other magical armor (just a humble set of dragonhide full plate barding...)
He did like his cheese...
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I had a pouncing druid locally, whom I told that he would be allowed one bonus from the armor per charge, rather than per attack. It isn't the letter of the law, but the price of the item is too low for it to provide +10d6 per round.If you enforced this on my barbarian, I would refuse to sit at your table. There is nothing indiciating it shouldnt work with all of the attacks on a pounce, so you should not disallow it from doing so.
Indeed, and several new FAQ rulings on Pounce would support this.
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He argued that he should still have the +2d6 when it was merged with him since he wasn't wearing other magical armor (just a humble set of dragonhide full plate barding...)
He did like his cheese...
*Facepalm*
*Sorta-kinda-edit to my previous post, but not really*: Waiting to see if you would have made the same limitation to someone using it not while Wildshaped. If not, then I retract my previous statement. :P
A mithral chain shirt +2, fortunately, is just a chain shirt +2 using the mithral special material, so you should be good to go if PFS allows crafting weapons and armor out of special materials--which they'd better, or else good luck taking on monsters with DR.
I still don't know why there are unique entries for some armors that you can produce simply by applying the special material rules.
If you enforced this on my barbarian, I would refuse to sit at your table. There is nothing indiciating it shouldnt work with all of the attacks on a pounce, so you should not disallow it from doing so.
If I had several players tell me not to seat them at your table (as happened with the Druidzilla I described), I wouldn't WANT you at my table. This guy bent and twisted rules like crazy, so I had to rein him in.
Furthermore, your barbarian would also suffer from the mediocre armor class associated with the rhino hide armor, unlike the wildshaped druid (who rocked out ACs in the mid 30s at level 8). That would tend to balance out his ability to wreak havoc.
+2 Mithril Chainshirt costs (100 (chain shirt) + 1000) (mithril)x4 + 4000 (enchantment) which is 8.4k gold, enchantment costs are not multiplied due to the size or type of a creature (but the base item price including any special materials is).
It would make for some great armor for a mount. Here's how I calculate it, and I see no reason why it would be disallowed in any way:
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+2 Mithral Chain Shirt - Large NonHumanoid
Base Cost: [(100gp + 1000gp) x 4] + 4000gp = 8400gp [(Base + Mithral) x Large&NonHumanoid] + Enchantment(+2)
AC: 4 + 2 = 6 Base + Enchantment
Max Dex: 4 + 2 = 6 Base + Mithral
Armor Check Penalty: -2 + 3 => 0 (capped) Base + Mithral
Weight: 25lbs / 2 * 2 = 25lbs Base / Mithral * Large
All that said, the biggest advantage of mithral, it's weight and affect on move speed, is not really realized on light armors. For most mounts, you'd be effectively the same with a +2 Chain Shirt, ignoring the 4000gp mithral upgrade (replacing it with 600gp masterwork cost).
+2 Chain Shirt - Large NonHumanoid
Base Cost: [(100gp + 150gp) x 4] + 4000gp = 5000gp [(Base + Masterwork) x Large&NonHumanoid] + Enchantment(+2)
AC: 4 + 2 = 6 Base + Enchantment
Max Dex: 4 Base
Armor Check Penalty: -2 + 1 => -1 (capped) Base + Masterwork
Weight: 25lbs * 2 = 50lbs Base * Large
Gross, you multiplied the special material cost. That's always been vague and I always went the other way.
It's not specified anywhere, and if you really wanted to sit and think about it, the special material cost should be multiplied by the weight modifier, not the cost modifier, as that's really the indicator of how MUCH special material is needed. Given that idea:
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt - Large NonHumanoid
Base Cost: (100gp x 4) + (1000gp x 2) + 4000gp = 6400gp (Base x Large&NonHumanoid) + (Mithral * Large) + Enchantment(+2)
Actually, to make it even more complicated (why not?), the Magic Armor section does mention that 'the cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same' when dealing with nonhumanoid and/or non-medium armor (and weapons for that matter). Since the masterwork labor cost is included in the mithral price, you should subtract it out before multiplying it. therefore:
Base Cost = 100gp x 4 = 400gp
Masterwork cost = 150gp
Mithral cost = (1000gp - 150gp) x 2 = 1700gp
Enhancement cost = 4000gp
Total = 6250gp
the moral of the story? It's complicated - figure it out with your GM how you're going to treat it.
For what it's worth, hero Lab seems to somewhat support the cost calculations here. If you build a horse in Hero Lab, and add custom armor, you can play around with it. It seems to recognize the non-humanoid size, as it lists the chain shirt as 400gp for the large horse.
Making it masterwork makes it 550 = 400 + 150
Making it mithral, however, makes it 1400 = 400 + 1000, so it is NOT multiplying the special material costs.
Adding the +2 makes it 5400gp = 400 + 1000 + 4000, so it is also NOT multiplying the enchantment.
So, with all that lovely information so far, I can see it workable at either 5400gp, 6250gp, 6400gp, os 8400gp... clear as troll dung after a roast dwarf meal...
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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price of the item is too low for it to provide +10d6 per round.I would refuse to sit at your table ... you should not disallow it from doing so.
You probably shouldn't use a rule that people have alternate interpretations if you are unwilling to accept it when those interpretations don't go your way. I'm unsure of how I'd rule this.
Waiting to see if you would have made the same limitation to someone using it not while Wildshaped.
I'm sure how I'd rule this in PFS. You don't get it while Wild Shaped. Mostly because my 10th level PFS druid had this armor and didn't use it while Wild Shaped for two reasons. I concluded it didn't work. More GM's concluded it doesn't work.
Waiting to see if you would have made the same limitation to someone using it not while Wildshaped.I'm sure how I'd rule this in PFS. You don't get it while Wild Shaped. Mostly because my 10th level PFS druid had this armor and didn't use it while Wild Shaped for two reasons. I concluded it didn't work. More GM's concluded it doesn't work.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
Waiting to see if you would have made the same limitation to someone using it not while Wildshaped.I'm sure how I'd rule this in PFS. You don't get it while Wild Shaped. Mostly because my 10th level PFS druid had this armor and didn't use it while Wild Shaped for two reasons. I concluded it didn't work. More GM's concluded it doesn't work.When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
Relevant part bolded. It does not require activation - thus, it applies, even wildshaped.
It isn't constant, it is activated upon charge.
No, its a passive ability that augments your charge. There's no standard action activation.
Also, all attacks made with pounce are charge attacks, pounce just augments it so you make a full attack instead of a single attack. Its entirely sane to houserule otherwise though I'd think.
It isn't constant, it is activated upon charge.No, its a passive ability that augments your charge. There's no standard action activation.
Also, all attacks made with pounce are charge attacks, pounce just augments it so you make a full attack instead of a single attack. Its entirely sane to houserule otherwise though I'd think.
This
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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ThisIt isn't constant, it is activated upon charge.No, its a passive ability that augments your charge
Fine, tell that to the table variance I experienced.
Plus I don't think it is intended to apply more than once anyway.
With rules, and the often multiple interpretations, you can not and should not assert "this is the only way it works".