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Bride of the FAQ Attack!

Tuesday, February 28, 2012

She’s ready to pounce!

If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the extra damage multiplier from charging?

No, for two reasons.

One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.

Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because there is no rule in the Core Rulebook that allows a PC to charge and take multiple attacks with a weapon, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)

If I drink a potion, do I automatically forgo my save against that potion?

No. Nothing in the potion rules says it changes whether or not you get a saving throw against the spell stored in the potion. Even if someone hands you a potion of poison and tells you it’s a potion of cure serious wounds, you still get a save.

Does the dodge bonus from the “offensive defensive” rogue talent (Advanced Player’s Guide, page 131) stack with itself? Does it apply to everyone, or just to the target I’m attacking?

There are two issues relating to this rogue talent.

One, in the first printing it provided a +1 circumstance bonus against the attacked target, which was a very weak ability. The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.

Two, it doesn’t specify whether the dodge bonus stacks with itself, and because this creates a strange place in the rules where bonuses don’t stack from the same source but dodge bonuses always stack. While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution: the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself. This prevents you from getting a dodge bonus to AC against a strong creature by sneak attacking a weak creature, and prevents you from reaching an absurdly high AC by sneak attacking multiple times in the same round.

Sean K Reynolds
Designer

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Tags: Frequently Asked Questions Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I hope this closes the book on the lance argument. I feel it might not, though.

Shadow Lodge

I remember somebody writing they'd be laughing on the floor were the lance issue to be solved this way.

Oh man. Some sense, finally.


10 people marked this as a favorite.

I 100% love FAQ Tuesdays keep em Coming


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ummm, you might need to FAQ the FAQ.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
a lance only deals damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.

I'm pretty sure you meant to say "a lance only deals double damage when you're riding a charging mount-not when you are charging."

If a lance only dealt damage from the back of a charging mount my cavalier would be really angry.

Former Editorial Intern

In advance-- sorry for nitpicking! This doesn't really have anything to do with the "drinking does not fail your save" point, but more freedom of information and making saves.

I've actually encountered the potions situation, and I would agree, but your example encounters another problem. I haven't read the potion rules in a long time, but I don't think a character gets to know what the effect is until it's applied to them, right? If I am making a save, do I know what failing the save will do before I fail the save? It's just an order thing:

Drink potion
Save made
Effect applied
(so if the save was made, they don't know what the effect would have been)

or... (your example)
Drink potion
Effect shown
Save made (or failed voluntarily)
Effect applied

I would think that someone should not have knowledge of an effect until the effect is applied to them. It sort of opens up some weird loopholes involving someone being poisoned at a banquet and knowing it even if they make their save (rather than rotten food?), or if you're diseased, you would know it in advance, that kind of thing.

If my npc handed someone a potion of poison and told them it was cure serious wounds, I wouldn't let them make a save until they took the first hit and realized what it was. Though... if it was an ingested poison rather than a Potion of Poison, they would be like, "why didn't I get any hit points?" and then ten minutes later yell, "BETRAYAL," and not really have any reason to fail their save voluntarily. (Can you normal-poison potions of cure light? Then they won't even know anything's wrong!) So, I guess it's better just to give them a potion of Hold Person, then stab them in the throat.

Maybe they'd figure it out because Cure X has a will save and Poison has a fort save... I guess I could make them fail the save even before they knew what save they were rolling?

Despite the public information problems, I actually think maybe they should get a save, considering the variety of awful things that can be put into a potion. Accidentally giving an unconscious character a potion of Death Knell would suck under my interpretation.

Contributor

MendedWall12 wrote:
Ummm, you might need to FAQ the FAQ.

Yeah, yeah. :p

Edit: Blog fixed.

Cheliax

Quote:
To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum.

I totally agree with the ruling. But the reason seems too open to interpretation , can you not pounce with a long spear, or rapier, but you can with a scythe or great sword. I think a much plainer ruling can be that you cannot pounce with a reach weapon.


The reach weapon was not the issue. It was the x3 damage being done multiple times in one attack.

People can use whatever fluff they want anyway. What matters is in this case is whether or not it can be done.

Contributor

Souphin wrote:
I totally agree with the ruling. But the reason seems too open to interpretation , can you not pounce with a long spear, or rapier, but you can with a scythe or great sword. I think a much plainer ruling can be that you cannot pounce with a reach weapon.

If you can charge with a reach weapon, why couldn't you pounce with one? You're just stopping one square farther away.

The issue isn't "can you do this with a reach weapon?," it's "does the charge-triggered special ability of this weapon trigger for iterative attacks?"

Contributor

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Tyler wrote:

In advance-- sorry for nitpicking! This doesn't really have anything to do with the "drinking does not fail your save" point, but more freedom of information and making saves.

I've actually encountered the potions situation, and I would agree, but your example encounters another problem. I haven't read the potion rules in a long time, but I don't think a character gets to know what the effect is until it's applied to them, right? If I am making a save, do I know what failing the save will do before I fail the save?

The existence of the "harmless" modifier for saves indicates that the target of such an effect can somehow recognize that the incoming effect is not harmful, and choose to automatically fail the save against it. Thus, you drink a potion of cure light wounds, you realize "ah, delicious healing, I willingly fail my save." If you drink a potion of poison or an instantaneous nonmagical poison, you realize "something is wrong, I'm going to try to resist it."

And if you eat something poisonous with an onset time, you don't make the save until the poison activates, and while you can choose to automatically fail, your mind or your body recognizes it as harmful and tries to reject (save) against it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, we're not counting natural weapons as a weapon you can pounce with? Just asking because wildshaping druids and casters of the Beast Shape spells want to know!

Cheliax

Ok, the Centaur dual wielding lances frowns.


Azten wrote:
So, we're not counting natural weapons as a weapon you can pounce with? Just asking because wildshaping druids and casters of the Beast Shape spells want to know!

You can pounce with natural weapons. The druid's wildshape gives you pounce though the beast shape spells.


The blog said there was no rule that let you pounce with weapons. I was asking if Wild Shape and those spells were being ignored by the blog.

Of course, now I'm thinking of spiked wild armor and iterative attacks...

Silver Crusade

Quote:

If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the extra damage multiplier from charging?

No, for two reasons.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

Oh god, it's so good it hurts.


Cloud is sad.

Contributor

Azten wrote:
The blog said there was no rule that let you pounce with weapons. I was asking if Wild Shape and those spells were being ignored by the blog.

Where does it say this?

Caedwyr wrote:
Cloud is sad.

(1) That's not a lance.

(2) He's making multiple charges, not one charge with multiple stabs.
(3) Final Fantasy is not Pathfinder.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Bride of the FAQ Attack wrote:
(The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because there is no rule in the Core Rulebook that allows a PC to charge and take multiple attacks with a weapon, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)

Right there.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed that the blog title didn't continue to lengthen the "of the" chain you had going for a while. ;)

Andoran

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Azten, the part you are missing is that SKR said 'in the Core Rulebook', specifically. Meaning that when the rule was originally written in the Core, there wasnt anything that could get around it(so they had no reason to write a limitation for it). Later, as more material was released, there was stuff that could get around it, meaning it now, apparently, needs a limitation.

Really love the weekly FAQ, SKR.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Azten wrote:
The blog said there was no rule that let you pounce with weapons. I was asking if Wild Shape and those spells were being ignored by the blog.

Where does it say this?

Caedwyr wrote:
Cloud is sad.

(1) That's not a lance.

(2) He's making multiple charges, not one charge with multiple stabs.
(3) Final Fantasy is not Pathfinder.

(1) Hmm, you might be right. I wasn't entirely certain due to the immense size of the weapon.

(2) But all in the same round I think. I figured that was a good way of representing getting the charge damage effects on multiple iterative attacks.
(3) At the play levels we're talking about, wouldn't Final Fantasy be a good way of visualizing what melee characters are capable of?
(4) (I wasn't actually expecting a response to my tongue-in-cheek post. Thanks for the discourse.)


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
(3) Final Fantasy is not Pathfinder.

Damn Sean, now there is nothing to write about for the next FAQ!

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Would it be possible to get a Tag on the blog for these FAQ posts? They're very useful, and it would be helpful to be able to get a complete set by filtering to an "FAQ" tag.

Thanks!


What about if you are a barbarian with hurling charge rage power you won't get spirited charge as it is not a melee weapon on the throw but you should still get the spirited charge if you melee attack with a lance at the end right as you would still have the momentum to charge I think. Am I right on this?

Although it gets more complicated if you have a throwing lance.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

hah, I called that first ruling last week.

I'm glad the Sneak Attack Offensive Defense thing was fixed. Well, possibly fixed.

I'm hoping the Alchemist has their FAQs answered the next time this rolls around.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
(3) Final Fantasy is not Pathfinder.

Now Detect Magic's Black Mage is sad!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sean, going from point 1 of the pounce / lance FAQ.

Are you saying that when the mount charges, you are in fact not charging? So if you are on a mount, it is impossible for you to use any ability of yours that works when charging? If you are not charging when the mount is charging, then the PC cannot charge.

For example, Cavalier's Charge, Mighty Charge, and Supreme Charge. Those are worded such that they work when you charge. If you are not charging while the mount charges, they won't ever work.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Azten wrote:
Bride of the FAQ Attack wrote:
(The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because there is no rule in the Core Rulebook that allows a PC to charge and take multiple attacks with a weapon, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)
Right there.

He said multiple attacks with a (single) weapon. You never get multiple attacks with a single natural weapon. You just get to use all of your separate natural attacks on a pounce or other full-attack action as always and his statement does not contradict that fact.


Put spiked hide barding on a druid wild shaped into a tiger. Now they can pounce and make a bunch of armor spike attacks on a charge.

It seems to me that all the people afraid that wizards weren't the best anymore got their wish.


Cheapy wrote:

Sean, going from point 1 of the pounce / lance FAQ.

Are you saying that when the mount charges, you are in fact not charging? So if you are on a mount, it is impossible for you to use any ability of yours that works when charging? If you are not charging when the mount is charging, then the PC cannot charge.

I suppose he said the you get the double damage with a lance when you charge with a mount not when you charge without the mount.

Silver Crusade

Cheapy wrote:

Sean, going from point 1 of the pounce / lance FAQ.

Are you saying that when the mount charges, you are in fact not charging? So if you are on a mount, it is impossible for you to use any ability of yours that works when charging? If you are not charging when the mount is charging, then the PC cannot charge.

For example, Cavalier's Charge, Mighty Charge, and Supreme Charge. Those are worded such that they work when you charge. If you are not charging while the mount charges, they won't ever work.

"Cavalier's Charge: Cavalier’s Charge (Ex): At 3rd level, a

cavalier learns to make more accurate charge attacks while mounted. The cavalier receives a +4 bonus on melee attack rolls on a charge while mounted(instead of the normal +2). In addition, the cavalier does
not suffer any penalty to his AC after making a charge attack while mounted."

I don't think you are reading the power properly. It doesn't say anywhere that the Cavalier himself is the one doing the charging. It's pointing to the Cavalier because that is the class that's being described here. You still have to follow the rule that says the mount is the one actually making the charge, it's just there are certain advantages that are given to the Cavalier because of the ability.

Silver Crusade

Cheapy wrote:

Sean, going from point 1 of the pounce / lance FAQ.

Are you saying that when the mount charges, you are in fact not charging? So if you are on a mount, it is impossible for you to use any ability of yours that works when charging? If you are not charging when the mount is charging, then the PC cannot charge.

For example, Cavalier's Charge, Mighty Charge, and Supreme Charge. Those are worded such that they work when you charge. If you are not charging while the mount charges, they won't ever work.

Just want to point out that a FAQ for this isn't needed.

Mounted Combat
These rules cover being mounted on a horse in combat
but can also be applied to more unusual steeds, such as a
griffon or dragon.
Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs
can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not
possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill)
are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must
make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action
to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform
a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the
move action becomes a full-round action, and you can’t do
anything else until your next turn.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it.
You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up
a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that
you share your mount’s space during combat.
Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can
guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to
attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that
is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on
higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you
can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to
wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so
you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed,
you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty
associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of
the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge.
When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with
a lance (see Charge).
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a
double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can
use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple
speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll
when your mount has completed half its movement. You can
make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is
moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

Your answers are right here! It says here that the mount is the one charging but the rider gets certain benefits and disadvantages, all those feats are is a continuation of the above rules.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Does this errata also cancel the extra damage from feats like Mounted Blade or Cleaving Finish that are technically the same hit that continue on another target?


Hooooray! The witch* is dead!

*RAGELANCEPOUNCE


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If the rider is not charging when the mount charges, then without further clarification his attacks are not charge attacks, and those abilities do not work.

If they are charge attacks, then those abilities work.

If they are charge attacks but not charges, then there goes the "same or different principle" :p

But, as the FAQ seems to say, the mount is charging, not you. So cavaliers won't get those bonuses since they aren't charging and are not getting the charging attacks.

The whole cavalier class seems to be made with the assumption that when your mount charges, you are charging.


thanks for the errata
a shame to see offensive defense nerfed twice, once would have been enough in my opinion, but well, I like rogues a bit too much perhaps.

talking about offensive defense, how does sap master work with it? (and with many other things, like sap adept or hidden master from the ninja) Are the number or sneak attack dice really doubled or do you count after all else has been adjusted and calculated?
So can I get my full rogue lvl in dodge AC and deal twice that as bonus damage, or skip all that and deal 20 ability penalty as a lvl 20 ninja?
I believe most people on the message board think it's yes, so do I, a word from one of the honourable paizo staff members would still be appreciated.

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Sean -

When you wrote "Does the dodge bonus from the “offensive defensive” rogue talent (Advanced Player’s Guide, page 131) stack with itself? Does it apply to everyone, or just to the target I’m attacking?"...

When you wrote that, I think you misspelled "Is Antagonize actually supposed to force a caster to try to beat on you with a stick?"

<3,
J

Silver Crusade

Cheapy wrote:

If the rider is not charging when the mount charges, then without further clarification his attacks are not charge attacks, and those abilities do not work.

If they are charge attacks, then those abilities work.

If they are charge attacks but not charges, then there goes the "same or different principle" :p

But, as the FAQ seems to say, the mount is charging, not you. So cavaliers won't get those bonuses since they aren't charging and are not getting the charging attacks.

The whole cavalier class seems to be made with the assumption that when your mount charges, you are charging.

You are not considered charging in the Mounted Rules but there are still certain things you get, the same goes for those abilities that the Cavalier posses. It's all the same thing. A FAQ isn't needed, I think you may be confused a bit.


Tnks for errata.

Andoran

No, I think Cheapy is very much right to be confused.

As written, the mount charges and the Cavalier merely "make(s) an attack at the end of the charge". However, in the Cavalier rules, "The cavalier receives a +4 bonus on melee attack rolls on a charge while mounted". To go back to High School and diagram the sentence would be useful, but essentially it boils down to "The Cavalier receives a bonus on a charge". "while mounted" is merely a qualifier clause that indicates that the Cavalier must be mounted for the preceding phrase to occur in a valid way. However, it is itself a paradox... as the Cavalier doesn't ever charge (while mounted). He merely makes a melee attack at the end of the horse's charge.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
shallowsoul wrote:
A FAQ isn't needed, I think you may be confused a bit.

Saying a FAQ isn't needed doesn't stop the question from being asked—frequently.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am well aware of those rules.

Quote:
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
Cavalier's Charge (Ex) wrote:
At 3rd level, a cavalier learns to make more accurate charge attacks while mounted. The cavalier receives a +4 bonus on melee attack rolls on a charge while mounted (instead of the normal +2). In addition, the cavalier does not suffer any penalty to his AC after making a charge attack while mounted.

Is he making charge attacks? Do the attacks after a mount's charge qualify as charges?

Mighty Charge (Ex) wrote:
At 11th level, a cavalier learns to make devastating charge attacks while mounted. Double the threat range of any weapons wielded during a charge while mounted. This increase does not stack with other effects that increase the threat range of the weapon. In addition, the cavalier can make a free bull rush, disarm, sunder, or trip combat maneuver if his charge attack is successful. This free combat maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Is he making a charge?

Supreme Charge (Ex) wrote:
At 20th level, whenever the cavalier makes a charge attack while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance). In addition, if the cavalier confirms a critical hit on a charge attack while mounted, the target is stunned for 1d4 rounds. A Will save reduces this to staggered for 1d4 rounds. The DC is equal to 10 + the cavalier's base attack bonus.

Is he charging when the mount charges?

How does the Emissary's erratic charge ability work?

Quote:
Whenever the emissary is mounted and takes the charge action, he can first move 10 feet and make a melee attack.

Or Spirited Charge?

Quote:
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

No, a clarification is necessary.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
APG, page 131 wrote:
Offensive Defense** (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for 1 round.

Other than "against that creature", mentioned in the FAQ, isn't the easiest solution to just make the "dodge" bonus a "circumstance" bonus again? Stacking problem goes away, and the talent becomes meaningful by granting sizable (sneak-die-based) bonus to AC.

Silver Crusade

Cheapy wrote:

I am well aware of those rules.

Quote:
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
Cavalier's Charge (Ex) wrote:
At 3rd level, a cavalier learns to make more accurate charge attacks while mounted. The cavalier receives a +4 bonus on melee attack rolls on a charge while mounted (instead of the normal +2). In addition, the cavalier does not suffer any penalty to his AC after making a charge attack while mounted.

Is he making charge attacks? Do the attacks after a mount's charge qualify as charges?

Mighty Charge (Ex) wrote:
At 11th level, a cavalier learns to make devastating charge attacks while mounted. Double the threat range of any weapons wielded during a charge while mounted. This increase does not stack with other effects that increase the threat range of the weapon. In addition, the cavalier can make a free bull rush, disarm, sunder, or trip combat maneuver if his charge attack is successful. This free combat maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Is he making a charge?

Supreme Charge (Ex) wrote:
At 20th level, whenever the cavalier makes a charge attack while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage (or triple if using a lance). In addition, if the cavalier confirms a critical hit on a charge attack while mounted, the target is stunned for 1d4 rounds. A Will save reduces this to staggered for 1d4 rounds. The DC is equal to 10 + the cavalier's base attack bonus.

Is he charging when the mount charges?

How does the Emissary's erratic charge ability work?

Quote:
Whenever the emissary is mounted and takes the charge action, he can first move 10 feet and make a melee attack.

Or Spirited Charge?

Quote:
Benefit: When mounted and
...

When you are using mounted combat you and your mount are considered almost a single unit. You can't be mounted and roll separate initiatives. Your mount is the one who is moving and charging, you are the one who is attacking. Those certain abilities are granted to you as class features of being mounted. None of them ever refer to "you" as the one who is charging. All of the above are used with the "Mounted Combat" rules like I have mentioned before.


So, besides what Cheapy has already presented, does this say anything about the other "Charge/Pounce question," specifically "Can you pounce while mounted?" Or was that already cleared up in the other thread, and I simply missed it?

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.

What if I charge while on a boat?

I am on a boat.


Where is AM BARBARIAN at this critical juncture? Crying manly barbarian tears in a corner? How will he stage his comeback?

*I laugh, but sap rogue's only fear is the nerf bat, source of all non-lethal damage*

prototype00


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Spirited Charge (Combat) wrote:

Your mounted charge attacks deal a tremendous amount of damage.

Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack.

Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

So, is the rider charging when the mount charges? If so, spirited charge does something.

If not, then the explicit conditions of spirited charge are not met and so the feat does absolutely nothing useful.

Same, explicitly, goes for that emissary ability.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

For abilities that are not clearly intended for function maybe we need clarification, but for spirited charge and cavalier abilites it's clear how are intended to work. If something in conjuction with this could be broken GM should use common sense.


Are we still arguing how a mount's charge works based off of how a feat is worded? Base rules come first. Then feats break those rules to allow cooler things to happen.

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