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Alright, so the only text in which the idea of being limited to one spell per round appears in is in regards to quickened spells. It shows up both in the combat and magic sections, and reads as follows:
"A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round."
Now, this was something I'd never really noticed or played any attention to. It's a piece of text that goes back to at least 3.5 and seems to have been kind of a hanging commentary left over from an earlier rules draft. However, this came up during the Mythic Playtest, and JB had this to day:
"There is some text, in the sections that talk about casting quickened or swift spells, that notes that you are limited to only casting one spell per round (calling such spells out as an exception). As of this time, lets stick with that rule and say that amazing initiative does not let you cast an extra spell. We can clarify the language to work that way it is intended later." Link
So, here we are later. The rule for amazing initiative in the final release of the mythic rules has a specific exception barring it from being used for an extra spell per round. My question is, should this allusion to another rule (1 spell per round) be taken as an actual rule, or is it just extra text? Is the intention of the PF designers that things like Hero Points and Heroic Finale should not allow a spellcaster to cast more than 1 spell per round (barring quicken)?
As a followup question, how does this 'rule' work with things like arcane surge, which take your swift action? Does this mean an arcane surging archmage can only cast one spell that round, since it takes his swift action and he isn't allowed to cast another spell except through the use of a swift action (quicken spell)? That seems like a kick in the quad.
I'd love a Dev response or FAQ, as it's generated quite a discussion in my home game.
It's probably put in there so people don't try to pull the whole "It doesn't say I can't" argument.
That's Jason, not JJ.
This sentence is allusive. It alludes to your normal limit as if to a rule set out elsewhere of which it reminds you.
There are two possibilities as to what it could be alluding to.
One is that there is an overarching limit of one spell per round, which would be a major rule with great implications, but which is never stated in non-allusive form or referred to in any other context.
If there were such a rule, one would expect it to be stated explicitly in the magic section - or at least, somewhere.
The other possibility is that it is alluding to a normal situation of only having one standard action per round with which to cast a spell. Since (unlike a limit of one spell per round) this second possibility is something that actually does exist in the rules in its own right, it is much more likely that the normal situation of one standard action per round is what is being referred to.
As a note, Paizo has published a number of ways to get extra standard actions, some of which have specific exceptions rendering them unable to be used to cast spells, while others do not. There would be little need for a specific exception in Amazing Initiative (and we know that the question, as well as this particular rules line, was brought to dev attention during the playtest) if they could have just pointed to a "rule" preventing more than 1 spell per round.
And man, I was all ready to post the link to Jason's post just based off of this title, and then I saw you linked it already.
Way to steal my thunder, Peter.
The "normal limit" is the number of standard actions you have per round.
I can see this argument - it is exactly the argument Coriat (who plays with me) made. I don't know that I buy it though.
That's Jason, not JJ.
Thank you for pointing that out. It has been corrected.
And man, I was all ready to post the link to Jason's post just based off of this title, and then I saw you linked it already.
Way to steal my thunder, Peter.
First your thunder, then the world's!
At the time, the rule didn't need referencing. Mythic Adventures changed that.
Ugh. Game Designers, if you find yourself referencing an unwritten rule you should immediately stop and write the rule down before proceeding.
Maybe its been their plan all along to watch forum debates and grab the popcorn? Maybe when they started talking about two hands and armor spikes they were playing a drinking game! Purely fake speculation here.
I totally don't know where this rule about one spell per round is btw. I know its been brought up before...
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Indeed.
Hard rulings based on unwritten rules, are really the only rulings I truly hate.
Telling us to see what isn't there, know what isn't known, and calling us fools for not doing either.
To protest, is made even a worse crime, by those who never question, even when later, the developers admit a mistake.
Be afraid, of the unwritten rule.
Actually it's possible to cast three spells a round. You can cast a Swift spell (through Mythic abilities or Quickened spells), you can cast a regular action spell, and you can cast an Immediate Action spell of which I know of one: Feather fall.
Actually it's possible to cast three spells a round. You can cast a Swift spell (through Mythic abilities or Quickened spells), you can cast a regular action spell, and you can cast an Immediate Action spell of which I know of one: Feather fall.
Actually, a swift action uses up your immediate action for the round. You have to pick one. Swift or immediate. Not both.
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immediate actions use up your swift action the next round, though, so it's borrowing from the future.
At the time, the rule didn't need referencing. Mythic Adventures changed that.I hadn't thought of it, but this rule always needed referencing. Why? Feather Fall. Consider the implications of the un-mentioned rule in the following scenario:
Wizard casts Levitate on his turn and takes a running leap off the edge of a cliff, two hundred feet in the air*. An enemy Witch casts Dispel Magic on her turn, during the same round, dispelling the wizard's Levitate. Can the Wizard cast Feather Fall as an immediate action, even though he's already cast a spell in this round?
The answer changes whether or not this player is rolling up a new character.
*I'm sure there are more plausible situations than a Wizard foolishly jumping off a cliff with nothing but a levitate spell running, but it's the easiest & quickest I can give you.
The answer is yes, because spells cast as a swift action don't count against the limit. Says so in the rules. And an immediate action is a swift action.
This was never an issue if you read the rules.
EDIT: Because I like to show my sources. Emphasis mine.
You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
It's not an actual rule, it's a meta-rule or unwritten guideline that other material is supposed to conform to.
So anything Paizo publishes should conform to it and not allow breaking it, likewise if you want your homebrew to follow the same standard
That's in general. The designers can certainy decide that a specific ability may be able to violate it in some specific way,
so if they write anything that does that, then it's actually intended to do so, and thus OK.
Presuming they were aware of what they were doing and actually paying attention to that meta-rule.
Otherwise... that is a very very very bad thing.
But that's something that the publishers need to worry about and issue Errata if necessary, not the players' concern.
It's not an actual rule, it's a meta-rule or unwritten guideline that other material is supposed to conform to.
So anything Paizo publishes should conform to it and not allow breaking it, likewise if you want your homebrew to follow the same standard
That's in general. The designers can certainy decide that a specific ability may be able to violate it in some specific way,
so if they write anything that does that, then it's actually intended to do so, and thus OK.
Presuming they were aware of what they were doing and actually paying attention to that meta-rule.
Otherwise... that is a very very very bad thing.
But that's something that the publishers need to worry about and issue Errata if necessary, not the players' concern.
This logic... just... what!? So its a rule we're not supposed to know, but they conform to, but if they break its okay because they meant to? That's confusing?
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The answer is yes, because spells cast as a swift action don't count against the limit. Says so in the rules. And an immediate action is a swift action.
This was never an issue if you read the rules.
EDIT: Because I like to show my sources. Emphasis mine.
You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.
Emphasised something I think you're neglecting in your decision.
To the best of my knowledge, Quickened Spells are spells to which the Quicken Spell feat have been applied. Not all spells having a casting time of an immediate action.
Find the part where the rules call Feather Fall a "quickened spell", and I'll agree that there is zero confusion, regarding casting Feather Fall in the same round that you cast another spell.
If the "normal limit" of one spell per round is something other than a reference to the idea that most spells take at least a standard action, then only quickened spells can be cast in the same round as another spell. I recognize that Feather Fall is an edge case, but it illustrates that the question has existed prior to the introduction of extra standard actions to the game.
If you reread again (funnily you totally skipped on emphasizing this part)
You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell metamagic feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.
The rules designate that Quickened Spells spells that are cast as a swift/free action are treated the same way. And Immediate actions are swift action equivalent. Ergo, something like Feather Fall or Timely Inspiration falls under those rules.
The only place outside of Mythic that allows for multiple standard actions is the Monk of the Four Winds, and they are specifically barred from casting while doing so.
Someone already mentioned hero points. Also, this.
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How many unwritten rules have you broken?
How would you know?
Because the laws of Golarion are so complex, most Pathfinder PCs are legally felons but do not realize it.
Because the laws of Golarion are so complex, most Pathfinder PCs are legally felons but do not realize it.How many unwritten rules have you broken?
How would you know?
And then the Inevitables come. :D
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These "unwritten rules" are nothing but a headache, and I refuse to abide by them.
The "2-handed + Armor Spike" debacle shows how confusing these "unwritten rules" are.
I'd love a Dev response or FAQ, as it's generated quite a discussion in my home game
I have hit the FAQ for you. Good question and I hope you get a respond from the Devs.
I know how frustrated it can be when rules are unclear. Me, I’m hoping for a comprehensive FAQ answer on Ability Bonuses, Damage and Penalties, but I guess that we both have to wait since the Devs are busy getting the Advanced Class Guide material ready for the upcoming playtest.
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An unclear rule does not even compare to the frustration of a ruling based on unwritten rule.
Worse, when it's suggested that those who don't know the unwritten rules are lacking in basic comprehension.
It's insulting, and leaves a feeling of violation, that the customer should never feel.
It's the only thing I can think of that Paizo has ever done that makes me feel this way.
Otherwise, I like the company, and it's employees.
What happen if i´m a magus and cast a quicken Spell, than delivery a standard action spell with a melee attack, than the attack triggers the spell stored on the weapon a and contingency spell on me?
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so you're only limited to one swift/immediate/free spell per round. that you cast personally.
activating spell-storing items wouldn't fall under that category.
so with mythic initiative, you just can't : mythic fireball, quickened mythic underwear one pass, and then quickened mythic summon, and launch another mythic fireball the next pass you act on.
that about sum it up?
Quickened Summons do not take one round. They are a Swift action. In addition, there is a mundane feat for casters with Auras that turns a summoning into a regular action... and a Mythic trait that does similar for arcane summoners.
But there isn't any such "explicit" rule.
The only "explicit" rule relevant to this is that Swift Action spells are only once/round.
Sure, there is wording that implies there is such a rule, but no such rule is directly stated.
We don't actually have such a rule spelled out in specific words to understand and apply it's specific wording.
As BBT wrote, that line can just as easily be understood as a 'meta-commentary' reference to Standard Actions NORMALLY being 1/round.
Hm. Not sure if this is relevant, but in Dreamscarred Press's version of Psionics, there is a feat that functions as Quickened Power, but it is a move action, and it specifically states that you can manifest another power in the same round you use the feat.
Hustle Power [Metapsionic]Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You may manifest a power with a manifesting time of one standard action as a move action instead. Powers with manifesting times other than one standard action may not be affected by this feat. You can perform another action, even manifest another power, in the same round that you manifest a hustled power.
Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 4. The power's total cost cannot exceed your manifester level.
Manifesting a hustled power still provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: This feat cannot be used on powers that cannot be quickened.
Jason wrote, "We can clarify the language to work that way it is intended later." Can anybody help me interpret that? I suspect that maybe there's a typo or grammatical error there. I guess it is also possible that I'm just not parsing the sentence correctly though.
I think he might mean, "We can clarify the language to work the way it is intended later." I guess he could also mean, "We can clarify the language to work that way. It is intended later." Either way, I'm not sure how he intends it to work. Can Amazing Intiative allow you to cast a second spell as a standard action or not?
"Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell."
"A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. "
The latter quote is from the section on "Casting Time" in the Magic rules of the PRD, so I don't view it as particularly obscure. Whether it is just commenting on how many spells a "typical" character using the Core rules can cast in a round or setting forth a 1 spell per round limit could certainly be debated.
Regarding Hero Points - In the past I once ruled that a PC using a Hero Point is not allowed to cast an extra spell due to this "normal limit of one spell per round. This annoyed one of the players enough that he'll still turn red and threaten to leave the game if the matter is discussed even briefly. I didn't think he should be so annoyed since Hero Points are an optional rule that I was allowing to benefit the PCs and help them survive, but he apparently found my decision to prohibit his action using the Casting Time RAW even more frustrating than I found his attempt to short circuit the encounter using the Hero Point RAW.
I have a bit of a bias since I offer Hero Points to the PCs mostly to help them survive and remain part of the story rather than to allow them to go nova and blow up everything twice as fast. Speaking of that, in an earlier 3.5 game before we'd noticed this rule (and before Hero Points) there was a guy who loved Tome of Battle and started using White Raven Tactics to give my Sorcerer extra turns. The results were pretty overpowering, and I was actually glad when the DM banned Tome of Battle.
@Bizbag - I really can't interpret the sentence about clarifying the language as I don't know what is supposed to get clarified or what was intended.
I will try to evaluate his prior statement that, "As of this time, lets stick with that rule and say that amazing initiative does not let you cast an extra spell."
A) It seems to me that he believed there's a rule which says you can only cast 1 spell per round barring exceptions such as Quicken Spell. The advice to "stick with that rule" implies there is a rule to stick with.
B) It also seems to me that he did not intend for Amazing Initiative to be an exception to that rule (since he said we should play as if it isn't)
Since he also said "As of this time" I'd guess that he might change at least one of those opinions later though. Overall I think there's enough uncertainty for me to hit the FAQ button.
There seems to be an unwritten guideline, but, and forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't know of any abilities that grant bonus standard actions that don't specifically call this out, except Time Stop, which is generally understood to allow the bonus spells.
Ahem:
The only place outside of Mythic that allows for multiple standard actions is the Monk of the Four Winds, and they are specifically barred from casting while doing so.Someone already mentioned hero points. Also, this.