Seeing as the rulebook isn't an absolutely clear 10,000 page legal tome, you are making a house rule somewhere, even if you don't realize it.i never have, people enjoy my games well enough without me pulling house rules out of thin air whenever it suits me :)lol. Everybody makes house rules. It's just a matter of degree.Maybe if they were epic AND mythic.
Maybe.
Raving Dork just made a house rule!
*waits for the cracks of doom to appear*
nope:)
not everyone plays games to find ways around the rules. some play for just the fun of it, without looking for loopholes around every corner. so i don't see why the rulebook would need to be a 10,000 page behemoth. now if your thing (which it seem to be) is to try to find ALL the loopholes you can find, then go ahead right up your 10,000 page rulebook, i bet not more then five people would buy it in your entire lifetime:)
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As people say, there are no stats for gods.
They can only be defeated by the power of story and other gods.
So the answer is to become a god.
Oddly, in Golarion this is rather more straightforward and codified than in many places. You have to pass the test of the Starstone. It can't be that hard, we know of one guy who turned up drunk, did fine.
If one of my characters passed the test, I wouldn't bother with the abstraction of god killing though.
I'd go to take out Razmir. Rub his face in it, the failure. Nyah nyah nyah.
Lamashtu was at demigod level at power when she killed Curchanus.
Tar-Baphon was able to defeat (and kill) a demigod when he himself isn't one.
While the chances are slim, I'd say a party of level 20 with 10 mythic tiers could defeat a deity.
The only issue is that, since Paizo's saying they won't stat deities, then DMs need to build them themselves. Which isn't really an issue. Because each game exists mostly within it's own existence where DMs can make up anything. You could, theoretically, have a level 1 character destroy an entire pantheon due to some loophole in rules or accidental Achilles heel exploit. It all depends on the DM and the sort of game you're going for.
i never have, people enjoy my games well enough without me pulling house rules out of thin air whenever it suits me :)
NEVER!?!
You've never come across a situation during a game where there was no clear rule to cover it and had to make a judgment call as how you think the rule "should" work?If you ever have, you've technically made a house rule as you have "changed" the rule as written in your "house".
BUT to the point of the thread, as many have said, yes and no.
Yes if it moves your story/game
No if it doesn't move your story/game
Not a personal criticism of the OP, we've all come across threads regarding, "Can X be done inside the rules?" I think just because the game does have A LOT of rules, that make a good attempt at covering many situations in game, doesn't mean the story isn't more important.
Don't let the rules hold the story hostage.
2cp submitted
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Yeah, Savith chopped Ydersius's head off, and he was a full-blown diety. To his credit, decapitation was a crippling injury, not a fatal one.
Though the Continuing the Campaign for Serpent's Skull actually has a suggested destruction condition of taking the Skull and the headless body to Pharasma's Court, reuniting them there, and taking the regenerating god down right in front of Pharasma.
I'll also note that while Savith crippled Ydersius instead of killing him, she was also fighting under suboptimal conditions - as in, she went in with a entire party but she was by herself vs. the god at the end. And she still won.
Well, she did have an intelligent artifact sword. The sword didn't live through the fight either.
A 20th level, tier 10 character is probably in Savith's weight class.
There'd be GM fiat involved, since you'd need to stat said god, but a campaign that ends with the PCs fighting a god is perfectly fine, and actually pretty old-school.
Macguffins are your friend!
Lucifer isn't a deity, though.
Tangential note, some of by buddies in college spent many a silly night making theoretical builds based on one-shotting Lucifer. Fun times.
The only issue is that, since Paizo's saying they won't stat deities, then DMs need to build them themselves.
Personally, I'd be more likely to build a storyline about bringing about the deity's downfall without ever entering into actual direct combat with them. Like, you have to get all political with other gods and use *them* to do it.
Alternatively, I'd go with: you have to locate and destroy some kind of power base. Or you have to bring locate four forgotten artifacts and bring them all together on the night of such-and-such-a-day in the lost temple of wherever, and throw in a mythic opponent defending the temple for the final battle. Then boom, there's a big flash and there's one god less floating around.
Until such time as there's an official set of deity-level rules for Pathfinder though (if ever), I'd avoid any actual direct confrontation.
Of course, others are free do to what they prefer :)
Lucifer isn't a deity, though.
Though he'd sure like you to believe he were God, or at least a viable alternative to God.
Listen to some fundamental/zealot Christians, and you'd assume that their religion had two dieties, with Satan being the more powerful of the two.
More influential, maybe, but never more powerful.
Lvl 20/ Mythic 10 Party: We're going to kill *insert God here*
God:
Lvl 20/ Mythic 10 Party: *smoking crater*
Where was that said?We also weren't supposed to get more base classes, so make of that what you will.Rovagug is essentially the Snarl... so no.
In any event, Paizo have said they have no interest in statting the Golarion deities. The most we might get are some heralds or avatars to fight.
I spent some time looking for this quotation, although I haven't found it yet. It was said by James Jacobs in - I believe - a discussion around a blog post. I will keep looking and try to dig it up, but I have to run ATM.
Lvl 20/ Mythic 10 Party: We're going to kill *insert God here*
God:
Lvl 20/ Mythic 10 Party: *smoking crater*
And that's another way of looking at things. It only depends on how the GM wants the game to end up. Now, a good GM would probably give out some hints saying that a party would be super boned if he didn't want them to fight deities, but that's another can of worms altogether.
Hehehe, yeah I'm pretty much in James Jacobs camp on the view of killing Gods. Without another God helping, it's just not possible for any PC. And if a party sets out to do just that, chances are that at least SOME of the other Gods will band together to stop them. Even Chaotic Evil knows to look out for its own interests.
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An observation about this thread: people are lumping demigods and gods into basically the same group, and then assuming all are the same. This is NOT TRUE.
Yes, the Whispering Tyrant became powerful enough to kill Arazni; but he was also one of the most powerful people to ever walk the planet, and Arazni was far from the most powerful of demigods. Tar-Baphon could have easily gone toe-to-toe with Karzoug and kick his ass all day long.
Now compare that same scenario to when he challenged Aroden directly. Yeah. Just go look up how much of a one-sided stomping match that was. And even after coming back as a lich, note that he didn't go for a rematch.
Cthullu is getting statted up in Bestiary 4, but it's been pointed out elsewhere that he is NOT the scariest or most powerful thing in the Lovecraftian Mythos; the Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods are two very, very different things.
If you want to kill the gods, fine, but you won't be doing it within the context of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting.
I'm with Ulmaxes on most everything.
Tar-Baphon, however, we now know is CR 26. Which is about ballpark for a Level 20/Tier 10 PC with artifacts and tons of gear and great stats.
Which still works for taking down Demigods. Demigods can be within nearly the entirety of the CR range (up to 30). All they have to do is be able to grant spells. The Demigod could be CR 18. Most are CR 21 to 30.
Tar-Baphon didn't kill Arazni because he was CR 30. It was because Arazni was less than CR 30, probably in the mid to low 20's.
Like I said earlier, within the setting as designed, players are capable of taking down Demigods - a maxed out party can kill CR 30 with great effort. Gods are beyond this.
Lamashtu was at demigod level at power when she killed Curchanus.
Demigods of CR 29+ (presumable where Lamashtu was sitting at) are capable of killing gods with exceptional planning, cunning, and effort and the help of story fiat. CR 29+ is still outside the range of personal power for a PC.
Tar-Baphon was able to defeat (and kill) a demigod when he himself isn't one.
He's as powerful as a Demigod though. CR 26. Arazni was weaker.
Ydersius feels unappreciated by this thread.
Zhangar already elaborated on this pretty well, but in case it needs to be said again, Savith did not kill Ydersius. She wounded his avatar, and with the help of a super-powerful intelligent artifact sword (also known as a MacGuffin). That should be entirely within the realm of capability for a Level 20/Tier 10 party - injuring a deity with the help of a powerful MacGuffin that they quested for.
Of course, as already said, all of this only applies if you want to stick with Golarion world consistency. GMs are welcome to do what they please for the benefit of their story.
Orcus and Lucifer were given stats by Frog God Games.
3PP are welcome to do as they like. Orcus, in any case, is a Demigod who falls within the range of CR 26 to 30 when it comes to the Pathfinder Campaign Setting.
Mythic Realms. Which also stats Arazni as she exists currently while residing in Geb.
What if the Genesis of the PC's mythic power was a Divine Spark?
Like say, they get their mythic tiers by passing the Test of the Starstone or learn that they've received the vestiges of Aroden's divinity?
I spent some time looking for this quotation, although I haven't found it yet. It was said by James Jacobs in - I believe - a discussion around a blog post. I will keep looking and try to dig it up, but I have to run ATM.Where was that said?We also weren't supposed to get more base classes, so make of that what you will.Rovagug is essentially the Snarl... so no.
In any event, Paizo have said they have no interest in statting the Golarion deities. The most we might get are some heralds or avatars to fight.
I suspect that what you saw was something akin to "We have no plans as of now" or "We haven't announced any plans." James is pretty careful never to say never when it comes to products. Also, even if he did say that we were never getting more base classes, he's not the only person who makes product decisions especially for the rule book line, so he would have been speaking out of place.
What if the Genesis of the PC's mythic power was a Divine Spark?
Like say, they get their mythic tiers by passing the Test of the Starstone or learn that they've received the vestiges of Aroden's divinity?
If they passed the Test...we already have Cayden as an example of what happens there. They don't become Mythic...they become Gods.
If they get vestiges of Aroden's divinity...they still aren't Gods because it's a vestige and not his divinity.
What if the Genesis of the PC's mythic power was a Divine Spark?
Like say, they get their mythic tiers by passing the Test of the Starstone or learn that they've received the vestiges of Aroden's divinity?
If they passed the Test...we already have Cayden as an example of what happens there. They don't become Mythic...they become Gods.
If they get vestiges of Aroden's divinity...they still aren't Gods because it's a vestige and not his divinity.
Mythic Realms actually elaborates on the Starstone and, well, Ventnor isn't wrong. The Starstone gives you Mythic Tiers.
To add a bit to Arazni vs. Tar-Baphon:
Arazni actually kept her mythic tiers instead of them being replaced by ranks of mythic lich, so we can reverse engineer Arazni the neutral good* living wizard pretty easily.
While TB was stronger than Arazni, it was only by a matter of degree. I was about to say "if you actually ran a duel between them it would come down to die rolls."
And then I just re-read a pretty important mythic lich ability, which is that they get to counterspell as a immediate action.
Arazni could still win the fight, but it'd be an uphill battle, and a single flubbed save would cost her dearly.
Considering that Tar-Baphon "humiliated" her, I'd guess that flubbed save happened pretty early on in the encounter, maybe even in the first round.
* I'm going with neutral good because Arazni has the Nobility and Protection domains, with her subdomains being in those, and I'm speculating those go back to when she was the Red Crusader. Therefore, she only had one alignment based domain, and as the patron of the Knights of Ozem she was probably of good alignment. Aroden had a thing for good-aligned female saints.
Interesting...is that when they pass the test?
Killing Rovagug? Destroying destruction? Ending the End? Nah. It is not just a matter of being strong enough to kill him. Nor is the problem that you can't find him. The most serious problem you would face is that Rovagug is the concept of destruction itself. That is why the collected gods could/did not destroy him: They both COULD not, because destruction is a timeless concept, and WOULD not, because creation requires destruction. So they locked him away.
If you do want to work Rovagug into a story, however, you have more options. Say... During the battle with Rovagug, Sarenrae lost something. A part of a divine portfolio, an artifact, whatever. Rovagug took this with him to the core of the world. Now Sarenrae wants it back, now that there are brave enough heroes to climb into Rovagug's prison and fetch it. So, these heroes, at the very pinnacle of their power, need to sneak through the caverns of the prison, quickly before Rovagug awakes from their presence, find the Thingie, and get out, all the while battling various horrible spawn of Rovagug that reacted more quickly to their invasion. This way, they will even get to see Rovagug... which may not be such a brilliant idea after all.
You. Are. Amazing. Yeah I understand about not killing Rovagug now, thank you. I'm definitely using that idea, you're awesome!
I was thinking him stealing her Sun domain. She is keeping it alive by channeling all of her magic into it, but it slowly gets darker day by day. I think will add a kind of urgency to the quest. :DPlus whoever mentioned the Starstone is fantastic as well. I'll make them do the test, but figure out how to represent them as gods in game later on. xD
I suspect that what you saw was something akin to "We have no plans as of now" or "We haven't announced any plans." James is pretty careful never to say never when it comes to products. Also, even if he did say that we were never getting more base classes, he's not the only person who makes product decisions especially for the rule book line, so he would have been speaking out of place.I spent some time looking for this quotation, although I haven't found it yet. It was said by James Jacobs in - I believe - a discussion around a blog post. I will keep looking and try to dig it up, but I have to run ATM.Where was that said?We also weren't supposed to get more base classes, so make of that what you will.Rovagug is essentially the Snarl... so no.
In any event, Paizo have said they have no interest in statting the Golarion deities. The most we might get are some heralds or avatars to fight.
I spent some more time looking for the quote, but with all the talk of new classes due to a certain upcoming book, there is just too much to go through. Also I am not 100% it was James, it might have been SKR.
And no, it was much more definitive than that.
Of course what any one dev says isn't binding. That much is obvious.
Isn't the idea that they won't be stating up gods merely things said by the devs and not some official proclamation by Paizo?
My point is merely that things change and we may eventually see god stats (not that I want them).
To kill a god, you need one of two things:
1) Stats for the god in question, or
2) A mcguffin that is the bane of the god in question.
In case 1, whether a charactr level 20/mythic tier 10 character can kill a god depends on the exact stats that the DM comes up with.
In case 2, a lower level non-mythic character might be up to the task, depending on how actively the god in question can interfere with the party's efforts.
Either way, it is up to the DM to decide how tough a challenge it is to kill a god. By default, if the DM does not provide the party a way to do it, most gods should be unkillable.
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We also weren't supposed to get more base classes, so make of that what you will.Rovagug is essentially the Snarl... so no.
In any event, Paizo have said they have no interest in statting the Golarion deities. The most we might get are some heralds or avatars to fight.
I already told you what I make of it - if they stat any deity at all, it will most likely be a herald, avatar or some other derivative. And such a being would easily still be powerful enough to be a top-end Mythic challenge.
Lucifer isn't a deity, though.Though he'd sure like you to believe he were God, or at least a viable alternative to God.
I believe he's third party too.
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Suggestions
1.)Give them all the chance of taking the starsoul test (and make a proper test for the starsoul test). A party of 7 Gods with 20 levels of PC and 10 mythic tiers maybe.
2.)Allow the triple nat. 20 rule to work. Then, in theory, a 1st level sorcerer with a 5 str. has a chance, albiet a slim one, to kill rovagug.
The text for Mythics says loads along the lines of unimaginable power and effortless might, comparable to gods themselves. Is this just flavour or could a campaign involving deities alongside PCs really work now?Sure. The real question isn't "can a mythic character kill a god?" Because the answer to that is an unequivocal yes. The real question is "can a mythic character kill a god in the first round?" The answer to that is merely a "probably."
If the gods are like the gods found in 3.5e, then absolutely a mythic character could slaughter entire pantheons for fun before breakfast.
Since Gods are statless you can't really say an unequivocal. Myself, I would wait to see how Great Old Ones and Demon Lords are statted up before I would assume it is as easy as has been said.
