Question of Razmir


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

James, if Razmir is not a god, then if a high level or mythic PC that has commune asked about Razmir being a deity what would his or her god say?
Would this not blow the whole living god thing out of the water?


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If they got an answer it might.

But consider -- is he worshipped? Yes. Does he have sway over his religion? Yes. Does he offer power for that worship? Yes.

None of the other gods are all knowing, or all powerful so it seems likely to not get an answer or possibly even a yes, depending on the god asked.

The answer could be (truthfully) yes, no and even maybe.

As such I think it would depend on the definition of 'god' used, and what exactly is asked, who asks it, and who answers.

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Razimir might just be a god - but a petty one, whose corporeal body has continued to age and weaken?

Also, another good reason why the supernal/infernal should not be giving clear advice or answers


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Doesn't razmir have the goddess of illusion using him as some sort of elaborate chess piece? Pretty sure that's likely to confuse the answer.


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So at the end of the day I think the general response is:

Yeah, good luck with that.


I've getting real tired of your s+!@ deity.


Abraham spalding wrote:

If they got an answer it might.

But consider -- is he worshipped? Yes. Does he have sway over his religion? Yes. Does he offer power for that worship? Yes.

None of the other gods are all knowing, or all powerful so it seems likely to not get an answer or possibly even a yes, depending on the god asked.

The answer could be (truthfully) yes, no and even maybe.

As such I think it would depend on the definition of 'god' used, and what exactly is asked, who asks it, and who answers.

The thing is would the character in question even ask this? If you consult Pathfinder wiki it says that most people have no reason to question Razmir's divinity. There are religions that oppose him, but real religions do that to other real religions, and other real gods do this to other real gods. So this is not out of the ordinary in the politics of religion. Probable cause to ask such a thing is going to be the key factor to this even happening and that's a far shot off in and of itself.

Shadow Lodge

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A semi-related question: what happens if you cast commune intending to contact Razmir? Are you answered? If so, by whom? If the being who answers the commune is not Razmir, who might it be?


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
A semi-related question: what happens if you cast commune intending to contact Razmir? Are you answered? If so, by whom? If the being who answers the commune is not Razmir, who might it be?

The goddess of Illusions. she is supporting him as an elaborate illusion :)


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My gamers like to think of their high level heroes as "God Slayers"...To their credit they have wacked a serious number of demon/devil/daemon lords,and helped to machine the death of Shar in my Forgotten Realms game [that took from 1995 to just past 2010, with their heroes really acting as mooks to the hero quasi-godlings they were serving]...

So when the heard of Razmir they thought instantly he was running a scam, so they wanted to take him out to reclaim their title...

To their disgust...they did kill him...but his church refuses to admit anything and claim "Razmir has ascended beyond our mundane reality...yada yada yada."

I did have the goddess of illusions came back from her "death", and reading this forum I'll have her start granting his clergy true spells as "PROOF" he is still in existance...she gets the prayers in his name.

Thanks for the help with my game guys!


vyshan wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
A semi-related question: what happens if you cast commune intending to contact Razmir? Are you answered? If so, by whom? If the being who answers the commune is not Razmir, who might it be?
The goddess of Illusions. she is supporting him as an elaborate illusion :)

You surely mean, an elaborate ruse!

Liberty's Edge

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Any deity that says that Razmir is not a true god is one of those jealous false gods that the razmirian priests have warned us about.


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OK, enough with this. Razmiran is the living god. No more, no less. What other gods manifest on the earthly plane? What other gods promote charity, kindness to others, and good works? What other gods make themselves available to their followers as easily as Razmiran does?

If you wish to petition Razmiran, you need not seek out a priest who returns with an answer. You may approach Razmiran himself. All you must do is climb the steps to his throne, where is highest priests will carry your petition to the Living God himself. And the Living God, in his mercy, shall provide answers.


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There could always be a razmiran vs wakena showdown like a living god fight night


My players are going "We killed him!...I Know It!!!...why are the Razmir priests casting real cleric spells??? What's going on?".

"And just where did our coin purses go?"

I just kept hinting at his ascension. Loads of fun for me with this.


I wonder if Razamir himself honestly thinks he is a god or if he knows he is not a god.

Liberty's Edge

Razmir is one of those stories that I feel really need to have more done with them in the game line. Like a Razmir AP, or perhaps an AP centered around Lake Encarthian that touches on that plotline.


Is there really evidence that Razmir is backed by the illusion goddess Sivanah? If so, what's the source for that info?

Liberty's Edge

Who knows. Maybe Sivanah elevated him to divine status by making him her new herald. Just that she did not tell him about it :-))


Joshua Goudreau wrote:
Razmir is one of those stories that I feel really need to have more done with them in the game line. Like a Razmir AP, or perhaps an AP centered around Lake Encarthian that touches on that plotline.

Erik Mona touched on this recently in some thread somewhere. He said that Razmir's creator - Jason Nelson I think? - was running a Razmir-centric campaign with awesome stuff in it. He said something like "this stuff really needs to see print." I forget where...

Sorry for all the indefinites. I'm tired.


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vyshan wrote:
I wonder if Razamir himself honestly thinks he is a god or if he knows he is not a god.

It's been quoted in the inner sea world guide that Razmir is searching for a sun orchid elixir for himself, because he's getting old by now (it says he took power 47 years ago, so i'm guessing he's in his 70s or 80s now) so if he has at one time believed his own BS by now, he's had a hard wake up call in the form of arthritis, sagging skin, and a prostate the size of a grapefruit. ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
A semi-related question: what happens if you cast commune intending to contact Razmir? Are you answered? If so, by whom? If the being who answers the commune is not Razmir, who might it be?

Commune for the most part, does not put you in direct contact with a god, but with undefined powers that might give you some clue to the answer you seek.


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ENHenry wrote:
vyshan wrote:
I wonder if Razamir himself honestly thinks he is a god or if he knows he is not a god.
It's been quoted in the inner sea world guide that Razmir is searching for a sun orchid elixir for himself, because he's getting old by now (it says he took power 47 years ago, so i'm guessing he's in his 70s or 80s now) so if he has at one time believed his own BS by now, he's had a hard wake up call in the form of arthritis, sagging skin, and a prostate the size of a grapefruit. ;)

Also last time I saw a write up for him he was a level 19 wizard, so not high enough to have immortality that way.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
ENHenry wrote:
vyshan wrote:
I wonder if Razamir himself honestly thinks he is a god or if he knows he is not a god.
It's been quoted in the inner sea world guide that Razmir is searching for a sun orchid elixir for himself, because he's getting old by now (it says he took power 47 years ago, so i'm guessing he's in his 70s or 80s now) so if he has at one time believed his own BS by now, he's had a hard wake up call in the form of arthritis, sagging skin, and a prostate the size of a grapefruit. ;)
Also last time I saw a write up for him he was a level 19 wizard, so not high enough to have immortality that way.

The wizard discoveries are player/GM story decisions. So it doesn't stand that every wizard would "know" that that's an option at some point, or even get it if they advance that far.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
vyshan wrote:
I wonder if Razamir himself honestly thinks he is a god or if he knows he is not a god.

Probably as much as any other meaglomanical wizard? Honestly, delusions of godhood are pretty much part of the territory of being an Archmage. Razmir would hardly be the first or the last.

Contributor

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This is the sort of thing that I would have far too much fun with in a campaign. If my players ever attempted to use commune on Razmir, oh they'd get a response all right, but rest assured it wouldn't be Razmir on the other end, even if it claimed to be.

*files this idea away for future use - especially so given that Tegresin the Laughing Fiend is going to pop up in the campaign at some point*


Dot for later.


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LazarX wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
ENHenry wrote:
vyshan wrote:
I wonder if Razamir himself honestly thinks he is a god or if he knows he is not a god.
It's been quoted in the inner sea world guide that Razmir is searching for a sun orchid elixir for himself, because he's getting old by now (it says he took power 47 years ago, so i'm guessing he's in his 70s or 80s now) so if he has at one time believed his own BS by now, he's had a hard wake up call in the form of arthritis, sagging skin, and a prostate the size of a grapefruit. ;)
Also last time I saw a write up for him he was a level 19 wizard, so not high enough to have immortality that way.
The wizard discoveries are player/GM story decisions. So it doesn't stand that every wizard would "know" that that's an option at some point, or even get it if they advance that far.

However we are talking about a specific character in a specific setting where that is a known option, and it's stated that he is looking for the secret of immortality. So he knows it's out there.

We aren't talking about everyone's home game, we are talking about Golarion as a whole setting and the options in it according to the pathfinder system.

IIRC his write up was in inner seas magic (it wasn't a full write up though, just like name class level and general blurb).


He is one cocky fellow that is for sure.


Generic Villain wrote:
Joshua Goudreau wrote:
Razmir is one of those stories that I feel really need to have more done with them in the game line. Like a Razmir AP, or perhaps an AP centered around Lake Encarthian that touches on that plotline.

Erik Mona touched on this recently in some thread somewhere. He said that Razmir's creator - Jason Nelson I think? - was running a Razmir-centric campaign with awesome stuff in it. He said something like "this stuff really needs to see print." I forget where...

Sorry for all the indefinites. I'm tired.

Its in the inner sea gods product thread. He said that after I was blowing up the thread when I found out razmir wasn't gonna be in the book.

Liberty's Edge

Fnipernackle wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
Joshua Goudreau wrote:
Razmir is one of those stories that I feel really need to have more done with them in the game line. Like a Razmir AP, or perhaps an AP centered around Lake Encarthian that touches on that plotline.

Erik Mona touched on this recently in some thread somewhere. He said that Razmir's creator - Jason Nelson I think? - was running a Razmir-centric campaign with awesome stuff in it. He said something like "this stuff really needs to see print." I forget where...

Sorry for all the indefinites. I'm tired.

Its in the inner sea gods product thread. He said that after I was blowing up the thread when I found out razmir wasn't gonna be in the book.

He's not in Inner Sea Gods? That's crazytalk! If anyone deserves mention in that book it would be Razmir. However, perhaps that means he and his plot hooks will see development elsewhere soon.

There are so many great plot hooks that have been left undeveloped in the Inner Sea and while I think it's a good idea to leave a portion undeveloped for homebrew games to exploit as they will I hope we see more about Razmir. Treerazer too, but that's a different topic.

Shadow Lodge

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I for one find this blasphemy outrageous...

we all know of our lord Razmir's Omnipotence...

In 4661 AR our lord Razmir saved us from the Chaos. Gained his Divinity.. and used his divine power to turn the city of Melcat to ash overnight...

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
ENHenry wrote:
vyshan wrote:
I wonder if Razamir himself honestly thinks he is a god or if he knows he is not a god.
It's been quoted in the inner sea world guide that Razmir is searching for a sun orchid elixir for himself, because he's getting old by now (it says he took power 47 years ago, so i'm guessing he's in his 70s or 80s now) so if he has at one time believed his own BS by now, he's had a hard wake up call in the form of arthritis, sagging skin, and a prostate the size of a grapefruit. ;)
Also last time I saw a write up for him he was a level 19 wizard, so not high enough to have immortality that way.
The wizard discoveries are player/GM story decisions. So it doesn't stand that every wizard would "know" that that's an option at some point, or even get it if they advance that far.

However we are talking about a specific character in a specific setting where that is a known option, and it's stated that he is looking for the secret of immortality. So he knows it's out there.

He "knows" what every character wants to know... that somewhere there is immortality out there in some form, and he's planning on seize it. He however isn't reading the pages of the Advance Players Guide and the Core Rulebook... those are gaming constructs, not narrative story elements. No NPC wizard "knows" that all he has to do is reach 20th level. That "discovery" is a gaming construct abstraction of the off screen work the player character wizard has undertaken up to that point to obtain it.


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LazarX -- funny but that looks exactly like what I wrote only with more words and some attempt at differentiation.

Beyond that I mentioned that the last time I saw him wrote up -- meaning in a metagame sense since he's not going to see his own write up.

In other words...

What are you going on about Cletus?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Joshua Goudreau wrote:
Razmir is one of those stories that I feel really need to have more done with them in the game line. Like a Razmir AP, or perhaps an AP centered around Lake Encarthian that touches on that plotline.

Yes, a Razmirian AP would be fantastic.

We are just finishing up City of the Golden Death and my Monk/Paladin wants to put the entire Cult of Razmir down.

Let us have this AP and put down the false god...


Iron cage match, Razmir vs. the Whispering Tyrant, discuss..


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Tar-Baphon would squash Razmir like a bug if they went head-to-head.

So Razmir tries to figure out a way to blackmail the Whispering Tyrant. I wonder what might work....


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Tar-Baphon dodged death more than twice and even after his defeat is considered a grave enough threat to require an entire country devoted to stopping his return, and turned a goddess into his... ahem.

Razmir... not so much.


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Yeah, as they currently stand, and going by raw stat power: Razmir (CR 20*) doesn't even stand a chance against Tar-Baphon (CR 26).

*I'm assuming PC gear and Exceptional Stats which bumps his CR by +2 (Level 19 Wizard = CR 18 + 2).


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Never underestimate the power of intelligence when you have 9th level spells at your disposal. His holiness Razmir is almighty. Tar stands no chance.


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Joshua Goudreau wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:
Generic Villain wrote:
Joshua Goudreau wrote:
Razmir is one of those stories that I feel really need to have more done with them in the game line. Like a Razmir AP, or perhaps an AP centered around Lake Encarthian that touches on that plotline.

Erik Mona touched on this recently in some thread somewhere. He said that Razmir's creator - Jason Nelson I think? - was running a Razmir-centric campaign with awesome stuff in it. He said something like "this stuff really needs to see print." I forget where...

Sorry for all the indefinites. I'm tired.

Its in the inner sea gods product thread. He said that after I was blowing up the thread when I found out razmir wasn't gonna be in the book.

He's not in Inner Sea Gods? That's crazytalk! If anyone deserves mention in that book it would be Razmir. However, perhaps that means he and his plot hooks will see development elsewhere soon.

There are so many great plot hooks that have been left undeveloped in the Inner Sea and while I think it's a good idea to leave a portion undeveloped for homebrew games to exploit as they will I hope we see more about Razmir. Treerazer too, but that's a different topic.

I was told that although he is worshiped, has a church, priests, etc, that he is still not a god and that therefore he will not be covered in the Inner Sea Gods hardcover book, which I still disagree with but I have to move on. I have made my disdain for this fact known though (not that it did me any good).

So here's my take on the Razmiran cult. Myself along with my GM have been discussing this cult for a while now about how they operate and what other individuals they would have in their employ. We have determined that since they like to keep a good appearance while they extort people for money and information, they do it carefully. They heal the sick and spread good words about the face that makes the Razmiran Priests seem good, while they are hiding behind their masks. When they go to extort people and resort to less than noble schemes, they do so while not wearing the mask, so that they cannot be identified or tied back to the church of Razmir. This preserves the good appearance while promoting a less than good agenda. Otherwise whats the point in wearing the masks? People would spread the info that the church was actually underhanded and their good reputation would be soiled, and therefore not matching what the books and wiki say about Razmir and his church. I look at Razmiran Priests as lawful neutral, doing good deeds in uniform and less than good deeds while outside of it and/or in disguise. Razmir on the other hand is still evil since he goes on about his ultimate goal using any means possible.

It does state in the books that Razmir is not liked by certain countries. This isn't because they know he's a false god. According to the wiki article, it says their is little to no reason to suspect he is a liar. Other gods, like Irori and others, have enemies. Certain countries hate them and/or all gods and religions in that regard. So his church being disliked by other clergy and countries doesn't prove his false godhood; it actually reinforces the notion that he is a true god.

As far as what goes on in Thronestep, I believe that the ritual that Razmir uses is similar to the process used in the movie Inception to plant an idea in a person's mind. That idea is that due to Razmir being on the material plane, a priest's magic will work differently than other clergy, and therefore can be seen as weakness or falseness. Therefore, a priest needs to hide the way he casts spells and rationalize his casting and other activities with lies and/or false truths planted in the priest's mind that he believes. This would eventually become an innate habit and the priest would never think anything of it. Also, if someone accuses a Razmiran Priest of casting a spell known to be solely arcane (such as scorching ray or boneshatter), the priest will say that Razmir can grant his clergy spells that are usually only known to be arcane because of his presence on the material plane. Clergy of Aroden may state that this cannot be since they did not gain the same ability, but they are a broken clergy with few members, and those members are crazy anyways for still worshiping a dead god.

When it comes to mechanics, the Razmiran Priest prestige class I like but have changed in a couple of ways. When they first gets the ability to case cure light wounds, you're 7th level or so overall, so cure light wounds is nothing. I gave them both cure light and cure moderate, and due to your level, cure serious is gonna be your top cure spell at the moment. If you keep the ability as it is written in the book, you will get use out of your False Casting feat to use wands and such to cure, but not your First Ritual ability. If you give them up to cure serious with it, you will never get use out of the False Casting feat. With my proposed changes, you will get use out of both abilities, one to be used in combat and the other out of combat.

I also don't think that a priest would use his innate cure spells on people outside of combat due to that they grant temporary hit points. This could raise suspicion among the masses if you cure someone and then they die later. Instead, outside of combat the priest will use his False Casting feat as to actually heal the individual. He will use his class ability to cast cure spells only in combat, for if the fighter faints after the combat after losing his temporary hit points, the priests can say, "He must just be tired. I cured his wounds, not his fatigue. We should rest."

Therefore, I have come up with a few ideas covering Razmir and his people. One is an archetype that I need to write up that is a lawful neutral version of the paladin who, while in uniform, does good deeds and promotes Razmir being a good god. They have a form of smite that works against anybody, but the target gets a will save on every hit to ignore the extra damage. He will also get a form of lay on hands. I also have a new version of the masks that have an enchantment that every time someone tries to remove the mask, the mask makes a copy that the heretic now holds and the mask stay firmly on the priest's face. The mask that the heretic is holding disintegrates after a few seconds. If someone tries to dispel magic on the mask and succeeds, the priest is instantly aware of this (this can wake the priest up if he is asleep) so that he may protect himself from having his true identity revealed. Knowing the mask's magic has been disabled does not always allow the priest to react to it (like being stunned or paralyzed). Lastly I have converted a spell from the Midnight campaign setting called lie that gives the caster a +10 to bluff checks and telling the lie is how you cast the spell so it remains unnoticed. It also interferes with zone of truth and if you use a 4th level spell slot with it, discern lies. If people are interested, I will post these homebrewed ideas in this thread, just let me know that there is an interest in such things.


Yeah the Razmir "faith" could be one of the few sources that has developed healing and curatives for arcane casters. Perhaps there is some dark cost in life and limb over the long term, perhaps they use drugs and sleight of hand a great deal (you feel like you have a thousand hit points).


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For a while now, I've been tempted to make an priest of Razmir who happens to be an oracle; he would pray as is normal for a cleric, and truly believe that his power came from Razmir. Since an oracle isn't beholden to a specific god like a cleric is, it would be doable.

As time went by, I could see him becoming the face of the church, and the next logical successor once the Living God "ascends."

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Fnipernackle wrote:
Never underestimate the power of intelligence when you have 9th level spells at your disposal. His holiness Razmir is almighty. Tar stands no chance.

Tar's got Mythic Tiers under his belt. Razzy is toast.

Silver Crusade

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Cleric: "My commune spell has revealed that Razmir is a fraud"
Razmiran Priest: "Well your god would say that wouldn't he?"


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Fnipernackle wrote:
Never underestimate the power of intelligence when you have 9th level spells at your disposal. His holiness Razmir is almighty. Tar stands no chance.

1) Both have ninth level spells available. Saying one stands no chance because the other has ninth level spells means neither of them have a chance.

2) Razmir is neither immortal nor powerful enough to humiliate a goddess in one-on-one combat. (Or if he is, a lot of characters I've played over the years have been given the shaft.)

3) Tar-Baphon is far, far more ancient and experienced. His only defeats have been due to the direct divine intervention of Aroden.

4) Tar-Baphon has a higher level and mythic tiers.

None of this says "Razmir is a chump." Instead, it says, "Razmir isn't as powerful as a guy who is far more powerful than he is."

It's like comparing a fifth level sorcerer and a ninth level wizard. Yeah, the fifth level might get some decent shots off, maybe even doing serious damage, but the ninth level has better equipment, more power, and and is tougher and stronger.

The difference between Razmir and Tar-Baphon, however, is even more extreme.

Tar-Baphon has: the lich template (at least, maybe something more), mythic tiers, a higher level, an older far more wide-ranging and more established cult, and a niftier hat. :)

Because tone on the 'net is strange: the hat thing was a joke.

Your take on the cult of Razmir is actually pretty interesting, though I disagree with several parts of it. I'd suggest instead that his evil clerics are, in fact, more nuanced and subtle than you seem to be allowing for "evil".

In other words, they are, in fact, evil, despite seeming to do "good deeds". Just because they are monstrous, doesn't mean they're not going to actually heal the sick and dying. They don't care about the sick and dying (and might would kill 'em off themselves, if they could, just to be free of such riff-raff), but they get sweet perks for appearing like they do.

All that said, I'd certainly be interested in hearing more of your ideas, if you wanted to expand upon them.


Nope. Razmir is divine. Mythic does not beat godhood.


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Fnipernackle wrote:
Nope. Razmir is divine. Mythic does not beat godhood.

I am proof that this is untrue. You can ask Yderiu- oh wait.


What is all this propaganda and lies I'm hearing? Must be enemies of the one true god, Razmir.

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