I would like to share my experience from PAX 2013.
This was a couple of firsts for me. It was a first pax, and it was a first Pathfinder Society. As a matter of fact, it was a first non-homebrew pnp experience, which is saying something since I've been playing tabletop dnd since the late 80's.
So, for whoever may give a damn, here is how Paizo and Pathfinder represented itself at what is supposed to be a pretty big deal gamer expo:
Paizo/Pathfinder had a small area in a general commons area, difficult to find for a PAX newbie, but findable for a guy who wanted to find it. The table had a few gents working at it who didn't know much about Paizo or Pathfinder, but were nice guys and able to direct you to people who knew enough to answers questions.
There were no freebies at the booth, but you could join a short tabletop scenario or card game for a pull of a random key from a grab bag, which had a chance to open a chest. The chest contained some goblin plushies, pathfinder novels, maybe other goodies. If you completed all 6 scenarios you got a PFS boon.
So my buddies and I joined the line to play a scenario. Only had to wait about 30 minutes, which isn't too bad considering some of the lines at pax. We went to the table with our GM, one of many tables in the room.
During our wait we were told to choose one of the 1st level pre-made characters. Choices were cleric, barbarian, rogue, sorcerer, wizard, bard, fighter, paladin, ranger, monk, gunslinger, ninja and samurai.
My buddies and I chose fighter, ranger and rogue. The three random folks who joined us for our scenario chose cleric, paladin and wizard.
Our scenario was given the nickname "woods". Our GM stumbled through the introduction text, he was pretty textbook, "read the dialogue and stick to the script" which is. . . well its different than I am used to, but it was a new experience for me which was fun. My group plays a couple of weekly tabletop games of pathfinder, so we felt we were fairly familiar with the rules. The three joining us were rusty on the rules but very intelligent folks who picked it all up right away. Our gm seemed to have his rules down fairly well.
The story was shaky at best. We were read a short script that we were in a bar, the bartender spoke to a random npc who entered then bar. The npc said something to the effect of "I own a farm. My farm and a couple of neighbors' have been attacked by a werewolf the last couple of nights. Do something." The bartender then looked at us and said,"you heard him, go handle it."
We basically said, "why should we?" and were told if we didn't that we would get beat up by some big important local official. Fair enough. This is supposed to be a demo, after all, so I can handle being told what to do. We are told to go buy some silver weapons from the local blacksmith. We head over to the blacksmith, buy all two of the weapons and 50 crossbow bolts that he has, and head to the farm where the werewolf has been.
We spent some time setting up an ambush for the wolf. Our ambush sucked and was ignored. Were wolf and some random guy traveling with the werewolf show up and start ransacking the house. We attack. We find out very quickly we are outmatched.
Meta-game speaking, the Were wolf has an AC of 21 and the dude with him an AC of 23. most of us have a +4 to hit. The paladin did a bit better, +6 with smite. Badguy's minimum damage was 7. We ranged from 10 to 16 HPs. It was definitely a get our ass kicked scenario.
Suffice to say, we got lucky. Our pally decided to roll a 19, 20, 19 on three attack rolls in a row, the rest of us managed 2 hits total, plus a couple of magic missiles and some helpful healing from our cleric. Our dm said that he had killed a lot of people that day, the way the encounter was set up.
My thoughts on the experience? Well, I feel our DM could have known his short script a bit better, and given it some personality instead of just stuttering through a crap script. I also felt he didn't know some of his rules thoroughly, but that's just me nitpicking, and all in all I thought he had a great sense of humor and I appreciated what he was doing. I felt the scenario was designed for people familiar with pathfinder. It would have sucked for newbies, with badguys who had an AC high enough that most of us needed to roll an 18 or more to hit. Also, the badguys hit hard enough to easily drop us with a single swing. We definitely won against the odds.
In the end, we only did one scenario. We got 9 cracks at the loot safe, of course we didn't win anything. Meh.
Final thoughts: the gaming was a fun and new experience for me, but railroad story and rookie unfriendly. The pre-made characters were okay, but the only character with any healing ability was the cleric. No oracle and bard had no cure spell. With badguy hitting hard enough to drop an ally in a single hit, limited curing was a bit rough. No reward for playing was crappy. Not even a little pin or lanyard. I got more from wizards of the coast for having them take a picture of us: a pin, and a costume goggles. I hope paizo does better in the future. I really hope Goblinworks has a presence for PFO in upcoming years.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm sorry to hear that. I personally know at least one of the chaps that was out front the entire PAX, and he is quite knowledgeable about PFS. He is always excited to talk about Society and is a great salesman for PFS and Paizo in general. So my guess is that either he was on break or busy managing the chest.
Speaking of the chest, it has a 1/10 chance of being opened (10% of the keys in the pot open the chest). For each game, players got a token, which is good for 3 chances to crack open the chest. This means that, over the course of PAX, a returning player that participated in all 5 scenarios and the card demo could get 18 chances to open the chest. Which is a pretty good chance you'll be getting something.
The wait for the games did range from 30 minutes to as long as an hour, however, unlike other PAX lines, we simply took names and called them out as they came up. So players could leave, grab a drink, play a demo, go potty, whatever, then return a half hour later and not loose their spot in line. This is something other PAX booths did not do.
As to the difficulty of the scenarios. Some (woods, isles, ice) were quite challenging. From a sheer mechanical standpoint, there were some encounters that - by the numbers - the players had terrible odds of pulling off. Isles had a CR 5 creature at the end that had invisibility at will against premades. Yeah, that's balanced. The responsibility for making the experience enjoyable for the players falls onto the GM. I overheard of a woods experience where everyone died. But everyone was cheering, because the GM allowed them all to become werewolves, and take their out vengeance on the town that sent them out in the first place. I imagine if something like that happened at your table, your experience would have been a lot better.
So in short, you could argue "better GM, better game." Except not all GMs were prepped for all the games. Some were planning to run "Ice" but then a table of players came up needing "Woods," so that's what they ran, with less than 5 minutes to prepare themselves. I also know of a GM that ran his first few tables at PAX (although he was well versed in the material).
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm sorry you had a sub-par PAX experience with Paizo, but that it wasn't the norm (as far as I saw), and I'd encourage you to participate again next year!
Also, regardless of a player's survival, they still got a token for playing.
EDIT: A final thought, regarding our location/visibility. The first day, we actually went out by the escalators going up to PAX and distributed goblin masks. This was great marketing and fun, until the convention staff shut us down because we were outside our area. PAX in general has pretty strict regulations on "where you can be." So we could be at the table outside, or in our three rooms, and in the area just outside. And that was it.
Next year I've been told to expect bigger and better things, so that should hopefully help our visibility.
|
The other thing you should know is that while the Volunteers were mostly from the pathfinder society (PFS) player base the scenarios are not PFS scenarios.
PFS scenarios are targeted to be between 4-5 hours long and different scenarios provide very different experiences. The experiance can range from dungeon crawls, like 4-18 The Veteran's Vault traveling through the sewers of Korvosa, to the heavy roleplaying, 4-09 Backros Matrimony guests at a wedding making allies, to some wacky adventures, 4-19 The Night March of Kalkamedes where you escort a person cursed by sleepwalking through the wilderness to try and remove the curse.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
The other thing you should know is that while the Volunteers were mostly from the pathfinder society (PFS) player base the scenarios are not PFS scenarios.
PFS scenarios are targeted to be between 4-5 hours long and different scenarios provide very different experiences. The experiance can range from dungeon crawls, like 4-18 The Veteran's Vault traveling through the sewers of Korvosa, to the heavy roleplaying, 4-09 Backros Matrimony guests at a wedding making allies, to some wacky adventures, 4-19 The Night March of Kalkamedes where you escort a person cursed by sleepwalking through the wilderness to try and remove the curse.
This is very true. These games were picked to introduce people to the system of Pathfinder, and would definitely fall short of a full-bodied roleplaying experience when compared to a homebrew or a PFS table. Our goal for PAX is to get new people to play the game, have fun, maybe win a prize, and get out of the way for the next people coming in.
|
It absolutely blows my mind why Paizo would be running "killer demos" at a convention that demos the game to mostly new players. Demos (and I've done a lot of them) should be light and fun. Killer demos scare away interested players and creates a bad rep for the game. Sigh. And then people like me have to explain to strangers that Pathfinder isn't a shitty game designed by masochists.
My play experience:
1) Evil cleric (6th?) opens with 3d6 negative channeling. His 3 ghoul buddies (who attack from surprise of course) are paralyzing anyone who managed to survive the channel. 4 PCs downed, 3 deaths. Half hit points or more in a single hit meant save versus death. Mobs used coup de graces whenever they could.
2) Werewolf and a long range sniper (4th level figher/ranger?) Silver weapons only available for 2 in the party. The rest of the party was a bit left out as they couldn't bypass the DR 10. 2 PCs downed. 1 death.
3) Doppleganger plus fire elemental. Long fight though as we couldn't hit. 2 PCs downed. No deaths.
4) Not sure on the number but I think it was 4? orc (barbarians?) with greataxes. 6? goblins with alchemists' fire. At sea. This one was the most straightforward. 5 PCs downed. 3 deaths.
5) Green Hag attacks with surprise. Turns invisible at will to reposition for full attacks. 3 PCs downed. 1 death.
As to the difficulty of the scenarios. Some (woods, isles, ice) were quite challenging. From a sheer mechanical standpoint, there were some encounters that - by the numbers - the players had terrible odds of pulling off. Isles had a CR 5 creature at the end that had invisibility at will against premades. Yeah, that's balanced.
Please tell me Paizo didn't design those demos with the intention of being used against level 1 pregens played by new players? In what bizzaro world would anyone classify a demo like that "good"?
Even if Paizo designed crap like that, what possessed you to use them???
The responsibility for making the experience enjoyable for the players falls onto the GM. I overheard of a woods experience where everyone died. But everyone was cheering, because the GM allowed them all to become werewolves, and take their out vengeance on the town that sent them out in the first place. I imagine if something like that happened at your table, your experience would have been a lot better.
That doesn't necessarily mean they like Pathfinder as a game or would play again. I've cheered at crappy demos, but I still thought it was a shitty game and would never buy it or play it again.
Plus, not everyone reacts like that, most people don't.
I'm extremely shocked that this happened or that Paizo thinks this is a good way to demo their game. Big time shocked. I apologize for my honesty here, but I seriously hope this paradigm changes in the future. Wow.
|
I ran over 20 of these encounters at PAX and only had one group die, and not other deaths throughout the encounters did have a bunch of people down/paralyzed/held/stunned though and I throughly enjoyed getting into a channel battle between Kyra and the Cleric in which Ezren bounced between conscious and unconscious at least 4 times.
(PS cleric was 3rd not 5th and only 2 ghouls)
I think overall even the party that died had a lot of fun with the encounters and I saw some great heroes shine, Lem with a clutch sleep in a couple of fights, totally turning it around, Miri doing a 47 point crit on a orc boss at level 1, Kyra keeping up party after party and Ezren with a clutch color spray on a group of orcs. Some of the fights were challenging and I was sorry to the player of Sela the paladin who went in first got paralyzed for 3 rounds and then just as she broke out of it was stunned.
Ran for over 100 people and I don't think anyone was unsatisfied, just remember next time you stop in Sandpoint, hit the Hagfish Inn, they have an awesome drinking contest for you.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
It absolutely blows my mind why Paizo would be running "killer demos" at a convention that demos the game to mostly new players. Demos (and I've done a lot of them) should be light and fun. Killer demos scare away interested players and creates a bad rep for the game. Sigh. And then people like me have to explain to strangers that Pathfinder isn't a s+!+ty game designed by masochists.
So I think I might not be explaining this in the best manner.
This wasn't a PFS game, there was no penalties for death, and the vast majority of people were interested in a quick, exciting experience. The mods were difficult, but honestly it didn't really matter if they were or weren't. The point wasn't the difficulty. It was making it an enjoyable experience for the players. The players didn't know what it said on the sheet, so you were free to modify the demo to allow everyone a chance to be important and enjoy the game.
I had a paladin that was leading the charge and one-shotting the ghouls. So I had more break out of the ground behind the party, allowing the people in the rear to play the game as well. I thought having an invisibility-spamming creature would be super irritating for a table of new players, so I changed it to a big, easy to hit, ogre. Just as heart-pounding, but with less "meh." I gave my goblins a level of alchemist or allowed the non-combat NPCs to assist the PCs make their attack roll when it missed by just that much.
I was allowed to make these changes because my only goal was getting people excited about the game and making sure they had a good time.
Please tell me Paizo didn't design those demos with the intention of being used against level 1 pregens played by new players? In what bizzaro world would anyone classify a demo like that "good"?
Even if Paizo designed crap like that, what possessed you to use them???
I believe the demo scenarios were from the Beginner's Box and/or the comics. Volunteers were given those 5 mods to GM. We didn't have a choice in the matter. So you're question is pointed at the wrong folks.
That said, I heard of no one voicing any issue regarding the difficulty. And the mods used last year at PAX were just as hard. For reference: they were the same mods that were used in Goblin Attack this year at Gencon. In those scenarios, there's one that has players fight a rat swarm, a pit trap, and a faceless stalker on the same 60' by 120' map. That seems fair against brand new players with premades, right? Wrong. It was a slaughterfest.
I think the success rate for the "Shank Shack" last year was something like 5%. But it was still the most popular mod. And we did over 300 tables in 3 days -- with a space that held 12 at a time. That's a lot of people leaving, talking about how awesome it was, and coming back. This year we had double the space and were at full capacity with a 30-60 minute wait over all 4 days.
That doesn't necessarily mean they like Pathfinder as a game or would play again. I've cheered at crappy demos, but I still thought it was a s+!*ty game and would never buy it or play it again.
Plus, not everyone reacts like that, most people don't.
I'm extremely shocked that this happened or that Paizo thinks this is a good way to demo their game. Big time shocked. I apologize for my honesty here, but I seriously hope this paradigm changes in the future. Wow.
That's right, but all we can do is present the rules and make them fun. And sometimes the fights are hard and you have to back away. And a good GM realizes that, explains that to the players, or even better, has their NPCs do that for them. The GM that had the players turn into werewolves at the end of his game did it because it gave the players a victory out of defeat. It made a TPK fun. Try doing that for your average table of PFS players.
Don't apologize for your honesty -- the messageboards is the right place for your opinion! Just be aware that the volunteers had no decision making in the format of the games or the scenarios. Also be aware that we weren't playing PFS. So PC death in 30-45 minute one-shot games is very different than PC death for a PFS character. A PFS player has hours, even days of investment into their character. A person playing a premade in a game they've never played before is like a kitten -- you need to distract them with flashy objects and immerse them in roleplaying, exciting combat, and the occasional brutal but memorable character death.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey Everyone
Thanks for the feedback. I know the I will be taking into consideration the things mentioned here when I plan for PAX Prime next year.
Let me make a few notes...
Cleric should of been channeling for 2d6, not 3d6 ;p Mistakes happen, and my apologies if it led to a sour game.
The werewolf and "friend" have a listed AC of those numbers. There were other weaknesses in that scenario which made the encounter much, much easier. That scenario is designed to give the "I wanna hit things and kill it, all the time!" choice a run for it's money. If you bust out a will save...they have negatives in that department.
All of the scenarios were designed to be challenging for the CR of a table of 6 players...which allows the GM's to make or break the scenario.
As the coordinator of this event...I rely on my GM's to provide the best experience possible, and where they don't...I would love to know so I can sit down with them and go over how to improve.
I told all my GM's that the only death I would be eyeing them for is the one that happens without the players ever seeing it coming.
My two questions for everyone who gave, or will be giving feedback.
1. What would you do differently? (Some have answered ;p)
2. Will you volunteer next year to assist in GMing at PAX Prime?
|
|
Sorry, I apologize with the tone I took before.
Yes, I realize that there was no penalty for death. There doesn't need to be a penalty for it to be a "non-selling" experience.
If I was doing a demo for a board game and the demo of the game basically destroyed me without giving me a realistic chance, I wouldn't be motivated to try that game again. Meanwhile I would probably be open-minded about a game that made me feel good after the table was done.
I've done a lot of demos of different games in the past 2 years and every single demo has been only moderately challenging (even to someone who didn't know what they were doing). Sure, there was the chance of failure, but we won almost all of the time and not once did I get trashed (like in your new demos). I'm assuming these guys (who are trying to sell me their game) know what they're doing? In any case, they're doing the opposite to what these new Paizo demos are doing now.
The beginner box demos are the right level of challenge. I don't remember any frustrating elements in the demos, such as the ones already mentioned: high DR creatures, swarms, high ACs, or invisible mobs. Relics, Ruins, Terrors, and Tomes are straight forward.
PFS players have been complaining for years that encounters with high DR creatures, swarms, and invisible creatures are some of the most annoying and frustrating encounters. Why would you put annoying encounters into a demo to new players?
Encounters with a single ghoul have TPKed some level 1 groups let alone 3 ghouls and a high level cleric.
Again, it's just setting the stage for that GM vs Player mentality, which I don't think is healthy for the game.
This is just my opinion, but most people don't want to lose or die in demos. They might have had fun, but the game is unlikely to sell.
I realize you didn't make the demos (and you're just making the best of it) so I guess this is directed at Paizo.
I agree, short demos are a great way to showcase the game at conventions, I just don't agree think showcasing Pathfinder with killer demos that leave players dead and defeated sells the game.
Anyway, that's just my opinion and observation.
...The werewolf and "friend" have a listed AC of those numbers. There were other weaknesses in that scenario which made the encounter much, much easier. That scenario is designed to give the "I wanna hit things and kill it, all the time!" choice a run for it's money. If you bust out a will save...they have negatives in that department.
...
As the coordinator of this event...I rely on my GM's to provide the best experience possible, and where they don't...I would love to know so I can sit down with them and go over how to improve.
....
My two questions for everyone who gave, or will be giving feedback.
1. What would you do differently? (Some have answered ;p)
2. Will you volunteer next year to assist in GMing at PAX Prime?
1. What would I do differently?
I guess first I would have a few differences in the pre-made classes, at the least I would either add oracle or give the bard access to cure light wounds. Having only the cleric as an option to cure anyone pigeon holes their role; especially when a single hit from a badguy can easily knock a player unconscious.
Second, I would definitely change the zero handouts at the booth thing. A little swag is nice, especially after spending an hour and a half or two at a single exhibit. Walking away with a great memory is nice. Having a little consolation pin or lanyard or maybe even a little goblin figurine or something would be great. 3 of us for a total of 9 shots at the chest and walking away with no little prize or anything was . . . well I was thinking I should've just kept my cool little wooden pathfinder coin.
In response to the comment about the woods scenario, our wizard was a complete PF rookie. The pre-made character didn't have a memorized will save spell. He used his arcane bond for a second magic missile since that was one of the spells that had a description. While his spell book had color spray in it, which would have worked well, how is a rookie player supposed to know to use his arcane bond on a spell in his spell book with no description? The rest of our group was built for healing, stealth, melee and range, we had no one else that had a will save ability. We set up an ambush, used stealth to get a surprise attack, role played and had fun. If our pally hadn't rolled such ridiculously lucky rolls, we would have been annihilated. It worked out, but having an encounter set up so marvelous slanted towards a lucky chance that the party has someone with a will save ability or get some seriously lucky rolls? Also don't forget that these tables tend to be made up of some newer folks and people who don't know each other. There may not be much communication between players.
But like you said, it requires the gm to make or break the scenario, if you design killer scenarios like that. Our gm did an okay job. It was also obvious that the poor guy had had a long weekend, so I am not going to give him too hard a time. By the end of our hour he was laughing with us, and I think we all had a good time.
2. Would I volunteer to Gm at Pax prime?
My gut reaction is, "hell yes!" I would love to GM this type of thing, and if it isn't too immodest to say, I think I would do a damn good job of it. But then after thinking about it, I would honestly answer a tentative . . . maybe.
The truth is that I would want to get something out of it. Simply volunteering my time to GM when I would much rather be cruising PAX and checking out the games, listening to the talks and playing demos rather than running them, would require some form of compensation. That kind of means that I wouldn't entirely be volunteering if I am looking for compensation, eh? Of course, I don't know what it takes to qualify to be a PAX gm, I may not have the credentials.
My plan next year was to attend PAX as someone who knew a little bit more about it for his second time around. Get a full weekend pass instead of a single day, listen in on more of the auditorium talks, stand in longer lines that I skipped due to time constraints, write more stuff on the Cards Against Humanity wall.
So . . . I guess what I am saying is, what do your GMs get in return for donating their time? Do they get a PAX badge? Pathfinder perks? A pat on the back? How much time do they get to cruise the con for themselves? Do they still have enough time to really check out the things they want to check out?
If they really did just volunteer for peanuts, then I would humbly beg their forgiveness for my mildly negative critiques.
P.S. On a slightly related subject, if someone in the know happens to respond, is there any word on whether or not Goblinworks will be at next years PAX to promote PFO?
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
1. What would you do differently? (Some have answered ;p)
2. Will you volunteer next year to assist in GMing at PAX Prime?
1. More space. This was accomplished as we moved from 2012 to 2013, but it needs to happen again if possible. We doubled in size but the amount of people waiting increased as well. With the popularity of Pathfinder growing, and PAX being so close to Paizo's doorstep, there should be a massive presence at PAX, IMO.
2. Of course; my life for Auir.@Lost Leader: This year we got...
- Free entrance to PAX
- A badge to explore the higher levels when not volunteering.
- Probably get a couple hours off each day, as long as you let the muster people know in advance.
- A GM boon
- Lots of thanks from Big K. He took us all out to dinner on Saturday night as a personal thank you.
|
Contributor
|
Just want to say my piece having run all four days of PAX demos. I ended up running somewhere around 40 tables of 4-7 players, I had all of 6 players die. Every single one was due to either a boss or sub-boss confirming a crit (except one case, where the party had absolutely no healing and got mobbed by all the enemies).
I ran Woods, Waves, and Masks all weekend. The dice rolls and the players' tactics made big differences in their successes. In one table of Woods, three players died (all to crits) before the two mobs dropped. The very next table of Woods I ran, the entire fight was done in two rounds with a combined Entangle and Color Spray. Yeah, their AC's were high for level 1's to hit, but the pregens also had access to tanglefoot bags, acid, and alchemist fires (the Fighter's touch AC was 11), spells like Sleep, Color Spray, and Entangle, and non-standard attacking methods like firearms, ranged-touch spells, and smite-evil. Sometimes the GM's damage output was a little crazy, but the same can be said for the pregens. Amiri can one-shot just about everything the GM's had if she crit.
1. What would you do differently? (Some have answered ;p)
- More space, as has been said. We had enough GM's that I was sitting around waiting for a table to open up at multiple points over PAX.
- More materials, or maybe just keeping better tabs on materials. I was using my phone to look up monsters' stats during some games because we ran out of books. I also wonder where all the paper-minis went, because I spent two hours making them and I couldn't find anything but Amiri and Harsk after day one :P
- Something for non-PFS people as a prize. I GM'd for a lot of new players, and when they found out the completionist prize was only for organized play, they seemed disheartened. Maybe something like a quest or Free-RPG Day printing that we could distribute that would work for both PFS and home games.
2. Will you volunteer next year to assist in GMing at PAX Prime?
Hell yes I will. Maybe next time I'll manage to not get sick.
Contrary to what OP says, my wife and friends are now Pathfinder nerds because of that booth at PAX this year. Even one of my friends that was extremely prejudiced towards RP'ing of any kind came around after 1 demo session.
It was all of our first times with tabletop RPG's and 1 of our GM's wasnt the greatest. But we still had a blast and actually ended up making a name for ourselves. We were the ones that tried selling our flesh (to get silver weapons at a discount) and using our friend as bait (tieing our friend up for the werewolf) in the woods scenario. We also were a part of the group that attempted 'pimping'.
My wife and I ended up going through about 25 keys together and not getting anything. My friends on the other hand got to open the chest twice and walked away with core rule books and beginner boxes!
It was a very positive experience and I wish the area had been bigger so that we could have played more without so much waiting.
I went upstairs and purchased everything I would need from the tabletop store on the top level (green lake games?) to start GM'ing as well as some reaper minis and paint.
So now just looking for people in my area (Alberta) to start playing with.
edit:
ALSO, ive been scouring online looking for those demo modules and cant find them anywhere! (woods, isles, ice, masks, etc) One of the people at the Pathfinder Societies table said that they are available free online but I cant find them...