|
It seems as though this GM (whoever it is) is well-known for these kinds of antics; frankly, he should be banned from running games (and this highlights the downside to judge rewards such as free attendence and accomodations at conventions - it can bring some fairly inept judges out of the woodwork.)
Well I do agree with you to a certain point on this. If people complain enough about the judge going out of their way to pull this kind of stuff. Paizo holds the right to put them on the no volunteer list and charge them for their rooms.
That being said this is more or less the result of the anyone can be a GM policy. I'm in no way complaining about it I have met and played with a lot of fantastic GMs but there is always a bad apple to ruin the basket. Best thing you can do is report those people and just refuse to play at their table.
|
I'm sure David Haller was being silly in the specific dollar value of a PC, but he still presents a valid point once you get past the money; it's certainly an investment of a pretty big chunk of your time.
Anyway, while I am a bit late here I wanted to comment on one other thing...
The situation has been resolved to my (and hopefully everyone's) satisfaction.
Thank you. It's good to hear things where campaign staff are involved and help out! I have no connection to the incident, am probably not in your play region (I mostly do online play along with very rare in-person sessions), but this is encouraging nonetheless.
Todd - As much as I want that ability to be a move action every time I use it, it's actually a standard action.
Dimensional Steps (wizard) is a standard action
Dimensional Hop (cleric) is a move actionI have run across more than one person who has confused the two.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I will say that it is hard at times to not *want* to kill PCs, especially when they are build to steam roll everything. In situations like that, taking a deep breath, or a break will make all the difference. (And remembering in a certain module, I had a 50/50 chance of slaughtering the entire party with the animal companion that was giving me fits.) :-)
Thank you for resolving the issue Michael.
After speaking with other folks in this area this particular GM has done this before to others, it's not a rules misinterpetation issue, it was not an accident, it seems this GM just bends the rules at his whim because he wants to kill pc's.
|
I think the important message here is in PFS the GM also has to abide by the rules. Especially when it envolved character death, players don't like to see their character die, so insure rules are followed. Expect the players will find out about the stat block of a creature so don't assume you can just change it and they will never know. (In home games a GM can make up his own rules, its his campaign but not in PFS).
Yes, GM's make mistakes, at the same convention a GM realized he made a mistake in a rule 4 combat rounds later as the demons were blasting the party, instead of wiping out the party he admits his mistake and asks the table how we should fix it.
And for people who know what convention I'm talking about I had one bad table experience otherwise all other tables were great and the convention was well run with great partipiants and GM's for the most part.
|
|
"If a player gives an incorrect interpretation of a rule does a GM have to correct it?"Could you provide a couple of examples of what you mean, SM?
One example, if I'm understanding Swiss Mercenary correctly, is that I had a player at my table who was playing a low level rogue...
In a combat with a couple of low level zombies, she murmured "well, they're undead, so I can't use my sneak attack...so..um..."
I politely informed her that undead most certainly can get sneak-attacked, and that it was a change in the rules from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
She was quite happy, but another player at the table gave me a, "dude, you're the GM, why did you tell her that?!" look.
|
"If a player gives an incorrect interpretation of a rule does a GM have to correct it?"Could you provide a couple of examples of what you mean, SM?
Player one: Can I move away from next to the bay guy and then grab a potion from my backpack?
Player two: Yes, I think it is all right.Player one: OK, that is what I do.
Player one: What happens when you get energy drained down to level 0
Player two: As far as I know you just have to pay for restoration, if you drained below 0 you are dead.
Player one: Ok, sounds good to me, I will attack again.
Things like when a DM can see the train wreck coming because one of the players has got the wrong idea about how a rules works and another takes him at his word about it which could possibly lead to deadly consequences.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sounds like you're talking about people who expect a "GM vs players" competition. That's not what the game's about. This is a cooperative storytelling game, and making sure everyone knows the rules is everyone's responsibility. Hiding information to play "gotcha" so that you can kill a player for their lack of rules knowledge is just bad GMing.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Swiss Mercenary,
I will ask the advising player to double-check that, because that's not the way I understand the rule. I won't say "you're wrong" without direct evidence in hand, though. Sometimes I learn the Pathfinder rules from my players, too.
|
|
Swiss Mercenary,
I will ask the advising player to double-check that, because that's not the way I understand the rule. I won't say "you're wrong" without direct evidence in hand, though. Sometimes I learn the Pathfinder rules from my players, too.
And if you knew the correct answer, would you correct them?
|
|
Sounds like you're talking about people who expect a "GM vs players" competition. That's not what the game's about. This is a cooperative storytelling game, and making sure everyone knows the rules is everyone's responsibility. Hiding information to play "gotcha" so that you can kill a player for their lack of rules knowledge is just bad GMing.
Completely agree here.
@Swiss Mercenary: Throwing in my 2 copper, I would correct them. It sounds like the kind of GM who wouldn't is playing immature power games with their players in an attempt to pull a "GOTCHA! YOUR CHARACTER'S DEAD! HAH!" stunt. Those sorts of GMs shouldn't be running games.
|
|
It's simple, if it's a rules interpretation issue that has to be done then use the best judgement possible. If you're adding a lot of numbers and you accidentally add up to 35 instead of 34 then I can deal with that. Changing an 11 into a critical threat, no. GM's have a responsibility to be fair to everyone in order to facilitate a good time. Talk to the VC or VL.
|
|
Sounds like you're talking about people who expect a "GM vs players" competition. That's not what the game's about. This is a cooperative storytelling game, and making sure everyone knows the rules is everyone's responsibility. Hiding information to play "gotcha" so that you can kill a player for their lack of rules knowledge is just bad GMing.
Completely agree here.
@Swiss Mercenary: Throwing in my 2 copper, I would correct them. It sounds like the kind of GM who wouldn't is playing immature power games with their players in an attempt to pull a "GOTCHA! YOUR CHARACTER'S DEAD! HAH!" stunt. Those sorts of GMs shouldn't be running games.
Well my character perma-died.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I ask the advising player to double-check that, because that's not the way I understand the rule. I won't say "you're wrong" without direct evidence in hand, though. Sometimes I learn the Pathfinder rules from my players, too.
And if you knew the correct answer, would you correct them?
SM, I play in a rotating-GM home campaign that swings from D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder to all sorts of other OGL games. I have lots of versions of the rules to keep straight in my head, and if I remember that Pathfinder Society doesn't use vitality and wound points, I'm doin' well.
But let's say I'm pretty sure I know how a rule works. If I ask a Player 1 to double-check the rule, and she assures me that she's right, then I'll let Player 2 make his own choice. He can look up the rule himself, take Player 1's word, ask me, or ask someone else.
If your question is "Will you let a player give another player bad advice," my answer is "eventually, yes".
EDIT: This presumes that everybody's a reasonably seasoned PFS player. If somebody's still at low tier on his first character, I'll be more assertive. "Don't break the new guy."
|
|
I ask the advising player to double-check that, because that's not the way I understand the rule. I won't say "you're wrong" without direct evidence in hand, though. Sometimes I learn the Pathfinder rules from my players, too.And if you knew the correct answer, would you correct them?SM, I play in a rotating-GM home campaign that swings from D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder to all sorts of other OGL games. I have lots of versions of the rules to keep straight in my head, and if I remember that Pathfinder Society doesn't use vitality and wound points, I'm doin' well.
But let's say I'm pretty sure I know how a rule works. If I ask a Player 1 to double-check the rule, and she assures me that she's right, then I'll let Player 2 make his own choice. He can look up the rule himself, take Player 1's word, ask me, or ask someone else.
If your question is "Will you let a player give another player bad advice," my answer is "eventually, yes".
EDIT: This presumes that everybody's a reasonably seasoned PFS player. If somebody's still at low tier on his first character, I'll be more assertive. "Don't break the new guy."
Call me Swiss ;).
Ok, well one of the problems I have with PFS is the fact that there are a lot of DMs, well most of them, I think, who do not exclusively play PFS. This means that you have DMs who still have a 'Home Campaign' mentality, if I can call it that, and so take actions and decisions which fall into a 'me vs them' mindset, which can be fine for a home campaign, but not for an Worldwide campaign.
I do travel to play, and have also played online, have played with a lot of different DMs and have a list of those I am no longer going to play with.
Not only do the playing styles differ, but so do their rules interpretations which can lead to problems and arguments
There are very few guidelines to orientate a DM, where one DM might allow something at their table another might not, yes sometimes you have to adapt, but when the DM springs it on you in the middle of a fight it can throw you.
Personally I enumerate my table rules at the start of a session, which I find helps the players adapt to me.
I have seen DMs correct players when they interpret rules in their favour, yet do nothing when a player interprets in their disfavour.
I have had a DM not answer a rules question when asked at the table.
I would like to see a list of dos and do nots and some gaming guide lines which DMs could follow. Not only would this be helpful to new DMs, but even the experienced ones can learn from it, I know I could.
Is a DM supposed to be a bit like a referee/umpire, can players request rules information from him or do they have to look it up?
I find that, at the moment, the campaign is skewed in the DM's favour, the players are constantly being reminded of what they can or can not do as players, yet apart from a few guidelines, such as do not change the rules or the scenario, nothing is being done about the informing the DMs.
This whole situation leads to DMs with a refereeing mentality of 'I am the DM, I am always right', which is true in a home campaign, but not for PFS.
Which leads back to the original premise of this thread.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
...
Not only do the playing styles differ, but so do their rules interpretations which can lead to problems and arguments.
I agree. It can lead to a lot more than that! I've put together something of a spiel at my tables. In addition to explaining the rules for Take 10, Take 20, the magic re-roll shirts and folios, I ask: "Does anybody have any questions about any gray areas of the rules? Is there anything that you've seen some GMs rule one way, and other GMs rule differently, that you want my ruling on, before we begin?"
Of course, that requires a player to be experienced enough to know that one aspect or another of her character is "in a gray area".
I have seen GMs correct players when the players interpret rules in their favour, yet do nothing when a player interprets in his disfavour.
I wouldn't call that a home campaign attitude, but I agree it's leaning towards being adversarial. You say you're not playing under those GMs any more, and I'd suggest you made a good call.
I have had a DM not answer a rules question when asked at the table.
Now, I've often demurred from answering rules questions. Sometimes, I don't see how they're relevant to the game at hand. (Somebody's asking a question about animal companions; nobody at the table is playing a character with one.) Sometimes I think a player is just trying to derail the game by getting people into a rules debate.
And a lot of time, I don't know the answer for sure, and I don't want to stop the game right then to look things up. Instead, I'll ask a player to look up a rule. The GM is the bottleneck at the game table. If I stop to page through Ultimate Magic (or was it Inner Sea Magic? Or maybe the spells in Ultimate Combat?) looking for something, the whole adventure stops. If I ask a player to look up the rule in question, then I can keep things moving for everybody else at the table.
I would like to see a list of dos and do nots and some gaming guide lines which DMs could follow. Not only would this be helpful to new DMs, but even the experienced ones can learn from it, I know I could.
Pathfinder Society has a couple of documents: GM101 and GM201. Also, Painlord has a very nice essay on his idea of a great GM.
|
Though this has already been resolved by the local Venture-Captain, I would like to put my observation in.
I participated in the same convention and DM'ed another deadly scenario, Bonekeep. The said DM also ran Bonekeep two tables across. After I finished my table (sorry to the group that I killed =( ), I was eating my dinner at the table and saw that a few other tables were still going. What I saw seemed a bit of foulplay in my eyes, which was that he started to become very irritated at a 8-year old kid, to the point where he started to either raise his voice at him or yell. I saw the kid and knew that he was scared (well, since it was Bonekeep), but even then I would have not done that. Whether or not the dad was at the table (he was), if someone starts to get angry, that simply raises red flags for me. That, and him openly fistpumping for getting a PC seems out of place.
As for his play experience, I had a chance to play with him as well. I brought in my big lug-of-an-idiot fighter, and he brought a paladin. In the first fight that we encounter, he chose to use the Antagonize Feat , specifically stating using the diplomacy portion, to target an enemy spellcaster. Since he was so adamant on trying to protect his allies (I was already on the other side of the field), I assumed that he knew how it worked. He said that the feat prevented the spellcaster from targeting other allies, which I was not certain about, so I let it slide, since I assumed that he knew how his character's build was supposed to work. Round 2 hits, and he stated that the enemy still can not cast spell OR attack anyone else. This is when the enemy and his paladin are on opposite ends of the playmat. This part I knew was wrong and informed the DM about how Antagonize worked and he readjusted accordingly. However, he attempted this again at a different encounter, and I left it to the DM's call to remember what this feat does. I beleived the DM was trying to make this scenario go as smoothly as possible, to which I agreed as the overall way the DM did the roleplay and such made for a memoriable experience.
A friend of mine DM'd a more social scenario and was trounced by all the bards and wizards on day three of the convention. He did state that he stopped one character with a really high diplomacy in their tracks. Apparently, the character played lost Common as a language learned, so that ended the teatime talk with people inside the scenario. He did state who the player was, and it was only later that I realized that it was the same person again.
Though I am aquainted with the OP, I was not in the group that was killed in his Waking Rune encounter. I also have no long-term encounters with the DM-person at hand. However, based my own personal experience as an observer and with him as a player, there might be some inconsistancy in his overall expertise in Pathfinder. It may be in how his playgroup works stuff out, his own personal experiences in homegames (like what the Swiss Merc said earlier), or whatever other reason, but if the players who play in the game, as well as the DM running the shots, are not observant in stuff people do, then these things will go rampant and there will be no lesson learned.
|
|
Do the rules of PFS fair play apply to GM’s when it comes to rules, dice rolls, and stat blocks? Or are they god like and make any decisions they want at their table in PFS?
Here is the situation, we are playing at a convention, scenario 4-26, we are playing up and we told the GM we do not want to play in hard mode.
** spoiler omitted **
While...
My Long opinion, most GM's(all star range) have problems running high level games.
This single scenario is perhaps the single most complicated scenario out there.
Simple solution, if you don't trust your GM don't play at his table.
In reviewing your play by play of the session, the only thing I can see wrong was crit on the 11.
Since I have ran this several times a clear point by point encounter.
Your may of been lucky to finish encounter 2 before Krune appeared. Not sure how it played out but it can swing to super deadly.
Initiative order is totally fine and legal in this option. PC's could delay, or even ready. I have ran this twice in the same initiative order mainly due to rounds healing and buffing or even players effecting the in game rounds in which Krune can appear.
Summoning, with access to meta-magic etc, perhaps their is a way he can have more than castings of elemental's, when I ran this I selected lower lever summons. Not sure about these specific elementals.
I am sorry you had a bad time, I would also stress don't be to critical of your GM the are volunteering time and money to allow others to enjoy the game. Now if you experience this same dilemma in other games with this GM this may be a warning to avoid this GM. At least have a one on one talk with this GM.
My personal experience with this scenario is a character death rate of over 50%. One party won one lost, I think both my running's the players had plenty of fun. I played it on hard mode, that wasn't paticulary hard as well.
I don't enjoy killing players but at high levels it happens allot, out of 150+ games I would expect over 1/2 of my games ran have been in the 7-11 range. I also have played high tier games that were terribly ran. I have had games where I have never had a chance to attack, others I died without taking any damage or failing a save.
So if this post has a point, or my opinions have value, challenge yourself to be great at running high tier games. It takes allot of prep. Allot of prep, once again allot of prep! I would think most GM’s don’t nearly prep enough. Definitely with new content being added to the cores assumption, prepping becomes more important.
GM’ing is also a hard skill to master, to read a group. To learn to be hard challenging and fun. To learn not to punish players with superior tactics. Locally when I run games, I usually have to turn players away. So either I am doing something good or I have a lack of local GM’s. I have around 50 local GM’s so it may be the first case. My last game I ran Sanctum of the Lost Age, I must of put around 15 hours of prep into it. I read it and took notes, allot of notes, and I still didn’t get everything right. But I am pretty sure my players had a blast, all for of them played when I GM'ed The Waking Rune, 3 of them had a character killed by me from one of the games, the other barely survived.
|
|
I can see why someone would think several of those things were honest mistakes and we would think that too accept the attitude became you are not going to escape I am going to TPK you. I'm not sure though how he can accidentally use a summon spell 2 levels higher then he had, even if he was looking at the hard stat block on accident he would have had to use a wish off that spell list.
I only posted part of the story in the first post. Lets move on to another part. The players decide they have a need to run. So they know that a downed PC has a 1/time object teleportation device.. Said GM, decides all the earth elemental's will suddenly stop attacking and block our path and only attack players who are in the plan to get others out. And going so far to only take Op. Attacks only on characters that are needed for the escape plan while letting others pass freely. So I ask why are they doing that? GM says because Krune is telling them, I ask how is Krune knowing what we are doing when he is not in the room, GM says- he's scrying on you. My answer really how did he get a spell off that takes 10 minutes in 5 rounds and if he's scrying on us we get a saving throw. Not only did he not have the time to cast the spell it's not even on his stat block. It went so far as one player saying to the GM you got 2 of us already why are you trying so hard to get all of us.
And i have more...which I will leave unsaid for now
There is little doubt by anyone sitting at the table that this GM was going to do anything to have a "gothca" moment. After it happened and we were talking about it we found other players who have experienced this GM fudging rolls in games they have played.
It would be easy to say I'm not playing at his table now, but we had no idea what we were walking into at the time. But i can guarantee that all of us at that table will refuse to play at his table again no matter what. Even if assigned during a special event, my attitude is I don't play with intentional PFS cheaters especially if they are the GM's.
This type of GM style should not be allowed within the reaches of PFS. At home games go for it, if you can find the players who will want you to run doing this hats off to you, because I don't know many.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
OK, folks - I feel that this thread has gone far beyond the point of serving any useful purpose.
We have only heard one side of the story (and, quite honestly, I don't expect to hear from the GM in this thread; at this point there are enough people prepared to condemn him out of hand).
It would have been better if this had been handled at the time; it could have been reported to the event coordinator, or to the head judge at the convention.
It would have been better if, once the local VC had been informed and taken control of the situation, people left him to take the appropriate measures.
It would have been better if the original poster took his own advice, and refrained from any more piling on.
|
|
I would like to see a list of dos and do nots and some gaming guide lines which DMs could follow. Not only would this be helpful to new DMs, but even the experienced ones can learn from it, I know I could.Pathfinder Society has a couple of documents: GM101 and GM201. Also, Painlord has a very nice essay on his idea of a great GM.
Where could I find these documents?
Otherwise, seeing as the thread should really be closed down, perhaps another one should be opened to enable DMs to discuss what exactly a DM can or can not do at a table. To stop problems from happening before they get out of hand.
Where could I find these documents?
Going with excessive details was unnecessary. All he needed to do was say he had a problem with a GM.Things like this should not be posted on forums, but taken up with a VC or Mike Brock.YES, HOW DARE YOU ASK FOR ADVICE ON A SITUATION WHILE NAMING ABSOLUTELY NO NAMES
edit: ESPECIALLY WHEN THE ADVICE YOU ARE ASKING IS, "SHOULD I TAKE THIS UP WITH CAMPAIGN LEADERSHIP" I MEAN MY GOD MAN
There should have a spoiler tag since the name of an enemy was given, but other than that I don't see an issue with it. It lets anyone else with this idea know, that it is illegal. Me seeing specific complaints in the PFS section has taught me a lot about what I can or can not do if I ever run a PFS game.
|
|
Summoning, with access to meta-magic etc, perhaps their is a way he can have more than castings of elemental's, when I ran this I selected lower lever summons. Not sure about these specific elementals.
With his normal array of summon spells, it would be impossible to summon elementals of the level the Roysier said there were. I have, however, seen some people let Krune cast Summon Monster IX, even not on hard mode, with the justification that he has it on hard mode, so it must be in his spellbook, and he can use his bonded item to cast it. I don't necessarily agree with that... but it's hard to argue against.
|
|
With his normal array of summon spells, it would be impossible to summon elementals of the level the Roysier said there were. I have, however, seen some people let Krune cast Summon Monster IX, even not on hard mode, with the justification that he has it on hard mode, so it must be in his spellbook, and he can use his bonded item to cast it. I don't necessarily agree with that... but it's hard to argue against.
Summoning, with access to meta-magic etc, perhaps their is a way he can have more than castings of elemental's, when I ran this I selected lower lever summons. Not sure about these specific elementals.