I pronounce the W in drow. I won't say "droe." I don't care if it's wrong. I'm too old to change. (I'm not really that old, but still not changing.)
The official pronunciation is "drow" (rhymes with cow).
I love worlds where magic is as common and ubiquitous there as technology is here.
Let's face it: magic in our game is not unpredictable or mysterious. It is common, predictable and reproducible. Just like technology.
In that circumstance it's hard to believe that magic would not become analogous to our technology. There would be magical equivalents of televisions, telephones, teleporters, aircraft, etc.
Glantri in BECMI D&D's Mystara setting was a great example of that, with fire elementals used to heat boilers, black puddings as garbage disposal units, etc. :)
I would say the disappearance of mystara as a setting resulted in this idea not moving further forward. Hmm....
One can be compassionate and civilized without agreeing that everybody and their dog is being repressed and insulted on a constant basis.the death of civility leads to the death of compassion, and vice versa. It's an ugly dichotomy....snipped..
On topic: I think the majority of people are too in a rush to be offended, too eager to find insults, and to play the victim card. Even when they're not the ones being addressed.I agree and feel that it applies to far too many people even beyond internet. +infinity cubed.
Note I agree with the rest of the above post as well but dont feel as strongly as I do for that last sentence.
not civilized, but civility. Maybe I should have said courtesy instead.
I'm sure this has been brought up in the last 1000 posts, but since I didn't read all of them...
I don't think a cleric has to run around healing every round... or every few rounds... or every combat...
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I don't think a cleric has to run around healing every round... or every few rounds... or every combat...
Yeah, that's why we gave them cahnnel. So they can forget what they're doing, ignore what's going on, and just channel and roll their D6s!
I hate clerics and think they are a fine example of not fun in pathfinder. That's my confession of the day.
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...The assumption you make here that everyone can potentially learn magic and would learn some making magic comparable to technology makes me cringe i is the absolutely worst part of the pathfinder system. I believe that magic at the end of the day should be magical, should be something strange andyes possibly :P but the reason I don't like that everyone has spells is because I feel it cheapens magic it makes magic mundane rather than magical and the idea of limiting resources to a daily amount is just silly in my head nor am I fund of the encounter resource as a limiter, I feel all such are rather artificial.
Obviously I dislike the way spellcasting is done in pathfinder as well, but that hardly is a unique thing or something the majority can't understand (even if they might disagree).
I dont like the spellcasting system either but I think in world where magic can be learned, only the stupidist people would not know some form of magic, even commoners would eventually learn a couple of cantrips, farmers would have a couple spelks that get passed down the family, I mean seriously, just look at technology today, even third world countries have significant knowledge of tech, why wouldnt a fantasy world have widespread magic use?
The only answers to the above question are when the ability to use magic comes from birth (the ability, not the right) or if magic just recently came into the world.
All this talk of soldiers who go straight fighter to fight armies backed by magic and spells is insane, no general is field going to field an army that hasnt even tried to gain every possible advantage and if magic is learnable, you can bet your plot that general is having her soldiers learn combat magic right along with swordplay and likely even has them learning to resist enchantments and spot illusions. There is just no good reason not to do so.
And well that is my pet peeve.
People can survive without technology, but do they? I dont like magic being a direct replacement for technology, I prefer it to have unique solutions to the same issues, but magic's effect on a society would mimic technology's effect on society. It would occur more slowly in some ways and more quickly in others.
Have you seen the cost of making even a low level spell book vs. what a low level commoner can actually afford? And that's after all the training necessary to become a wizard. . . There's one reason magic isn't in the hands of people all over Golarion, it is freaking expensive!actually personally I feel a need to be given a really really good reason for magic to be common and I never felt I got that from pathfinder. Each to their own I guess.There is always the fact that spells can he learned by anyone who is smart enough and the average person is smart enough for at least simple and basic spells. Such spells are beneficial and everyone will try to learn and obtain what will make their lives easier (except a very few small religious groups like the amish)
I dont see how that isnt a good reason for magic to be common, then those other posts preceding this one have good points from the metagame side.
But does every individual need their own spellbook? No. Very likely the poorer folks would have a family grimoire that gets added to slowly and probably even then they would very likely memorize a few spells so they dont need a spellbook "take spell mastery" since they would only need or use a very small handfull of spells. A spellbook is more expensive then actually learning magic, but the book isnt absolutly needed.
Besides it would be very possible for a family or a few families to pitch together to send one person to learn magic and get the spellbook, etc, and have them come back and teach the most useful spells to the family members till they no longer need a book to prep those spells.
Once someone in the village has mastered a spell, they can teach it to others till they master the spell as well.
When actual wizards come to town, the locals would probably sswarm them offering food and lodging and maybe even gifts in exchange for new and usefull spells.
Granted however, that most folks would be limited to first lvl spells but second lvl spells would be common enough that at least one person in each village would be able to cast them, and some family spellbooks might even have a couple even if no currently living members can cast that high.
Given the benefits of magic, it would be a worthwhile invesment, some might even consider it a necessity.
Note: I generally stick with in game fluff when figuring out what a society would do. Saying that only 1/100 people cast magic, then giving a description magic that allows the average person to wield magic, to me, is a contradiction and Ill follow the more fundemental description over the rather unthoughtout presumed resulting effect.
Compare magic to the telegraph or phone. Starts off with a town only having one, then as time goes on, more are installed. Same thing with a spellbook. They may cost a lot, but once you've got one, you've got it.
Cantrips and Orisons never have to be re-prepared. The most common ones are going to be spells like prestidigitation, mage hand, mending, light, message etc.
Prestidigitation and mending would be the MOST common of the cantrips. Those two spells would make life SO much easier in SO many ways it's ridiculous. Cleaning, cooking, coloring, child care/entertainment, repairs...
Prestidigitation alone is worth the initial 15 gp cost of a spellbook, and then the 5 gp cost of adding the spell and the 2 gp 5 sp fee a wizard would charge to copy the spell from his spellbook. A total cost of 22 gp, 5 sp to get, arguably, the greatest utility spell in the game, for everyone in your family/village smart enough to cast it.
I don't think a cleric has to run around healing every round... or every few rounds... or every combat...Yeah, that's why we gave them cahnnel. So they can forget what they're doing, ignore what's going on, and just channel and roll their D6s!
I hate clerics and think they are a fine example of not fun in pathfinder. That's my confession of the day.
I enjoy clerics. I just don't enjoy getting scowled at when I don't drop what I'm doing and rush over to stabilize you when you're not going to be dead for another 10 rounds. Clerics are fun for me. Being expected to heal is not fun.
Have you seen the cost of making even a low level spell book vs. what a low level commoner can actually afford? And that's after all the training necessary to become a wizard. . . There's one reason magic isn't in the hands of people all over Golarion, it is freaking expensive!actually personally I feel a need to be given a really really good reason for magic to be common and I never felt I got that from pathfinder. Each to their own I guess.There is always the fact that spells can he learned by anyone who is smart enough and the average person is smart enough for at least simple and basic spells. Such spells are beneficial and everyone will try to learn and obtain what will make their lives easier (except a very few small religious groups like the amish)
I dont see how that isnt a good reason for magic to be common, then those other posts preceding this one have good points from the metagame side.
But does every individual need their own spellbook? No. Very likely the poorer folks would have a family grimoire that gets added to slowly and probably even then they would very likely memorize a few spells so they dont need a spellbook "take spell mastery" since they would only need or use a very small handfull of spells. A spellbook is more expensive then actually learning magic, but the book isnt absolutly needed.
Besides it would be very possible for a family or a few families to pitch together to send one person to learn magic and get the spellbook, etc, and have them come back and teach the most useful spells to the family members till they no longer need a book to prep those spells.
Once someone in the village has mastered a spell, they can teach it to others till they master the spell as well.
When actual wizards come to town, the locals would probably sswarm them offering food and lodging and maybe even gifts in exchange for new and...
Well the typical medieval peasant spent the vast majority of his time trying to not die.
And many of them really sucked at that
The death rate was high, but that isnt the same thing thing as them constantly being literally focused on hour by hour survival and even if they were that would be greater motivation for them to learn magic, the tougher they have it the harder they will reach for any solution that is attainable. Get hard enough and they would steal spellbooks to get what they need.
Magic doesnt just make life easier and nicer, it increases productivity and cleanliness, both of which increase survival.
You didnt actually think in terms of the world, you only considered things from the rulebook. The rules and classes reflect the world not the other way around.
-the rules for prepareing from anothers spellbook assumes you are doing something unusual. Having a family spellbook that you have learned from since childhood would be so familiar as to be equal with your own writing.
-classes and feats are just abstractions to represent the world in a somewhat easier fashion. These things are metagame elements, not elements of the world. Therefore they have nothing to do with my arguements.
-we have not been given any reason to believe there is some massive conspiricy to keep magic away from the peasents. Not likely to succeed even if there was (though such a thing would hinder unauthorized magic, though plenty would continue in secrecy)
-mastering a spell allows you to prepare it without a spellbook, therefore, no money spent on writing another spellbook.
-i didnt say the wizard would take them up on the offer, but a few might, particularly for generous families.
-second level spells are third to fourth character lvl, which are the 1%-10% groups. That of course requires a lot of first lvl casters or you are just bending the numbers to suit your need.
- the issues of time and superstition can be readily seen in how easily technology overcame those issues. Usefulness will quickly overcome fear (well quickly in the counting of societies if not in the counting of individuals).
Enforced secrecy would never be global. And even if it was, then it qualify as a reason (you should recall that I stated needing a reason for magic to be rare) however, there is at no point have I heard of magic being kept secret at all much less on a massive scale (except darksun, but that is specifically darksun).
It is rather stupid to assume an unlikely scenario, just because people tell you contradictory information.
Oh, and wizards wouldnt need to keep magic secret anymore then nobles needed to keep fighting techniques secret.
Oh, and wizards wouldnt need to keep magic secret anymore then nobles needed to keep fighting techniques secret.
Very simple, numerical, counter argument to the general thrust of your argument. Look at the average starting age of a wizard. 22.
Look at the average starting age of, say, a fighter. 18.5
Look at the starting age of anything 'Intuitive' 17.5
Now lets just split the difference and say the average commoner was considered first level at 18(I think younger is more likely, but lets use eighteen) That means, on average, its going to take four years of training to reach the starting point of a first level wizard. And really, thats presuming a population(Subset wizards) THat has higher than normal intelligence. So for the 10.5 intelligence commoner, that number is probably closer to needing six additional years of training to be a first level mage. And I'd imagine that this training isn't 'taking a few night correspondence courses" which take you a half hour a night or something. They are long grueling and arduous study into the nature of reality and how to screw with it.
Its not something that 'Any simple person can pick up' just because they have enough intelligence to technically cast first level spells.
More than that, it would be the equivalent of medieval peasants sending their kid away for four years of college. Presuming they could even afford the cost, they COULDN'T afford to have the kid away for four years. There are crops that need to be brought in. THe fence needs mending, someone needs to go retrieve the escaped goat. , I need you here to help fight off the wolves ...
I dislike casters and conversations revolving around them, including but not restricted to: high magic/low magic; magic-as-technology-analog; divine/arcane split; verisimlitude of spellbooks; prepared casting/Vancian magic-is-not-"forget".
TL;DR - Shun, shun.
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Do Paladins who have grade school children have to be extra careful?
"Did you clean your room Timothy?"
"Awwwwww Mom, it's just going to get messy again."
"You keep it up mister, you and that smart mouth of yours are going to see what smite evil five times per day really feels like."
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Oh, and wizards wouldnt need to keep magic secret anymore then nobles needed to keep fighting techniques secret.I'm not aware of any fighting techniques that you could use against someone in another continent.
Not wearing heavy armor in the desert is a technique the crusaders learned the hard way.
Not charging across muddy fields wearing heavy armor and armored horses while English shoot at you with peasant militia armed with longbows is something French learned the hard way.
Not sending your entire army into a narrow passage guarded by a heavily armed and well trained army that has the defensive ground that renders numbers useless, is something the Persians learned the hard way.
Not standing in open formation, in the middle of the fields, marching in nice bright uniforms while Americans shoot at you from trees, is something the British learned the hard way. Everyone re-learned this during World War I.
Not marching an army into unknown territory, facing unknown threats and fighting after a plague ravaged your army, is something Alexander the Great learned the hard way.
Don't invade Russia during the winter is something both Hitler and Napoleon learned the hard way.
There are many techniques that don't work across continents.
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And never fight a Sicilian in a battle of wits, when death is on the line.
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This will be the first time ever that I've heard even the possibility of it being pronounced to rhyme with Bro.While I have heard of drow being pronounced to rhyme with cow I have always heard it pronounced to rhyme with though.
We must now shun each other Vincent.
I wonder how the archaic/ancient/mythological word trow, that drow was taken from by Gary Gygax, was pronounced.
My introduction to D&D was by reading The Dark Elf Trilogy and when I saw it written I assumed it was pronounced 'dr-oh'. However, once I started playing I never heard it pronounced any way except as 'dr-ow'.
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I think one bestiary is enough. 2 is a'plenty.
I wish people would stop using 3.5 material in Pathfinder, especially the monster manuals.
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Not wearing heavy armor in the desert is a technique the crusaders learned the hard way.
What they learned was not to wear the armor on route of march. They put it on for battles. The locals learned not to get in front of the big horses with the armored knights though...
Not charging across muddy fields wearing heavy armor and armored horses while English shoot at you with peasant militia armed with longbows is something French learned the hard way.
If the Welsh and English yeomanry had been an ill trained "militia" it might have worked. Both groups however trained to use the longbow for their entire lives. And the Royal army only took the cream of the crop. Yes, they tested to get into the King's service. A yeoman is not a "peasant" by the way. The yeoman receives his land from his feudal lord in return for military service (among other things) just like a knight. The yeomanry were part of the feudal military machine of England. Calling a yeoman archer a "militiaman" is like calling a knight one. They both put in large amounts of time training with their weapons.
Not sending your entire army into a narrow passage guarded by a heavily armed and well trained army that has the defensive ground that renders numbers useless, is something the Persians learned the hard way.
Which they ceased to do as soon as a Greek traitor showed them the way around the choke point. The 300, and about 700 Thespians iirc, died covering the retreat of the rest of the Greek army. Salamis sealed the fate of the Persian invasion. Although the Spartans certainly proved they could kill large numbers of Persians...
Not standing in open formation, in the middle of the fields, marching in nice bright uniforms while Americans shoot at you from trees, is something the British learned the hard way. Everyone re-learned this during World War I.
Funny but the guys in the bright red uniforms won most of the battles. Those guys who hid behind rocks didn't get the job done. It's why we trained the Continental Army to fight like the British and had large numbers of French regulars (who fought like the British) to help us. Skirmishing was done by both sides and was quite useful. Deploying troops in massed formations to concentrate firepower and destroy the enemy was decisive. The Minuteman winning the war while hiding and shooting the "stupid Brits" is a myth.
Not marching an army into unknown territory, facing unknown threats and fighting after a plague ravaged your army, is something Alexander the Great learned the hard way.
What turned Alexander around was his troops. They had this weird idea about seeing home some day. What he did wasn't the brightest thing a general could do but he did it so d@mn well it didn't matter. Until he was bitten by a mosquito and died of an encephalitic fever in Mesopotamia while returning home to consolidate his conquests before making more. The boy was a bit obsessed.
Don't invade Russia during the winter is something both Hitler and Napoleon learned the hard way.
Both invaded during the summer. They just made inadequate preparations (pretty much none) for winter because they, wrongly, assumed that if they won the battles the Russians would surrender before then. Stubborn bunch those Russians. Napoleon and Hitler weren't the only to make that mistake (Charles XII of Sweden iirc early 18th Century, Great Northern War?).
There are many techniques that don't work across continents.
OK.
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Speaking of things that could get me shunned... I will not love / hate Bestiary 4 based on any random piece of art or the inclusion / exclusion of any given single monster or an interpretation of a given monster that differs from mine. As apparently many posters will. I will judge the book by it's entire contents. Yes, I have been reading the posts on the Bestiary 4 thread while waiting for my subscribers shipping e-mail and my chance to download the PDF. Judging by that thread gamers are an incredibly whiney lot. I have to keep saying "not all of us". Repeatedly, as I read it.
It is, however, outselling the original game's successor edition and has outlived said successor latest edition.Pathfinder is pathfinder. Calling it anything else is an insult. It's like calling a guy an orangutan, and when he complains you say "meh, close enough".It's a collection of third-party house rules for 3.5e. That's all.
It's not some glorious second coming of the mighty dice gods, it's a revamped version of an already existing game. Deal.
Which, does not change what I said in any way. What's your point, other than trying to incite edition warring?
Napoleon and Hitler weren't the only to make that mistake (Charles XII of Sweden iirc early 18th Century, Great Northern War?).
Although Charles (Karl, in Swedish) at least had the excuse that the previous time a Swedish army tried to take Moscow they succeeded - and then the general in charge ran out of money to pay the mercenaries in the army, so the remaining forces became a easy pickings for a Polish army (but the point is, Sweden ended up getting control of all of Russia's Baltic areas in the following peace, so at the time, invading Russia had been a good idea historically).
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I don't see how an expression that something is better then something else can be an effort to incite edition warring? Edition warring is if i actually started railing on 4th edition and next. Which i won't. Not here anyway.
As opposed to "haha, PF outsold and outlasted that other game"? It added nothing to my original comment. It was a needless cheap shot.
Saying "X game is better than Y game" is the opening salvo of an edition war. So yeah, let's leave it there and move on.
The Fantasy trip: In the Labyrinth, FTW!
stuff
You know you know better, I know I know better, so what makes you so sure that you are correct, frankly it could either of us or neither of us. If you want me to agree with you, you will need to tell me something I have not already taken into consideration.
-Actually this happens all the time, or have you never read a textbook. Besides, if it is the book you learned from and had someone helping you through it, it is easy to understand. The rules assume that the other persons spellbook is going to be one you are unfamiliar with (as evidenced by the special callout that you dont need to make a check if the owner of the book is helping you through it.)
Besides, the rules actually say that it is difficult to read other wizards books because of the notation differences, of course if the book is the book you are learning the notation from, then that is the notation you will use.
- there is a huge difference between the fictional world and the game rules. You can play eberron using the savage worlds rules, or play golarion in burning wheel. The world has its own structure, the rules are just an interface and the gm's job is to make adjustments to fit the world the game is taking place in.
So my comments are about fantasy worlds as generally described by dnd and pf, and how those descriptions are sometimes self contradictory.
Know the world first, then you can use whatever rules you want to portray it.
-there is a difference between keeping details or specifics secret, and keeping general info secret. Like technology, the US has some secret capabilities but those secrets are details. We have secret nightvision goggles but the basic concept is not a secret and there are public known and available nightvision goggles.
If anyone tried to keep technology as whole secret, they obviously failed miserably.
Sure some spells will be secret, but that is different then, "any and all spellcasting."
- this is another rules point. The rules assume that a player has official college style training. While that is reasonable for a dedicated caster or for one who uses magic as a their job. In general a college type education is not needed to learn a little about a subject, and in some cases it can even be a detriment.
For example, a car repair place might have professional mechanics with certifications, but there are plenty of people who are quite capable in mechanics without any schooling.
Someone could even accidentally do some minor magical effect, then practice and expand upon that till they have their own magic tradition.
-dont see how this has any effect on what I said previously. Any person could be bad or good, it doesnt change the ability to use magic or see a wizard as a potential source of new knowledge.
-superstitions are there, but that doesnt mean they will somehow prevent people doing anything with magic. Someone is going to use it, even if just out of desperation, and they will go "hey, none of those bad things happened" and plenty of people will ignore superstitions regardless of their truthfulness, or falseness.
Whatever factors may help or hinder the expansion of magic, none will becompletely effective, and those who gain great benefit will outlast, and outperform those without, thus however long it takes, magic (just like technology) will spread, if only from magic users surviving while nonusers die.
Or it could quite reasonably mean that if you don't have that style training you don't have the ability to manipulate magic that is not of an inborn quality(like sorcerers) ... At all. To any degree. Also a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
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Confession: I think this talk about magic in your world is a little out of hand and I want to go back to a time when I could do what I really wanted to do in this thread... Shunning others.
Or it could quite reasonably mean that if you don't have that style training you don't have the ability to manipulate magic that is not of an inborn quality(like sorcerers) ... At all. To any degree. Also a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
If you needed that style training to use magic, then no one would have discovered how to use magic (other than innate casters). Besides, mechanics and programming are very complex and specialized fields of knowledge and yet there are many people who have figured them out without training.
There is no training on earth that gives you abilities where someone could not gain basic competence without training. It usually takes longer, but it is never impossible.
Consider that the first users of some ability had to of figured it out without training, then passed on what they figured out. Thus if magic can be learned in way, then training helps, a lot, but is not a requirement for the basics.
Also bear in mind that I am talking about commoners using basic magic, cantrips and first lvl spells. I am not talking about super advanced stuff like "Wishes" and "Miracles" not even metamagic.
I also havent even touched divine magic. Nor do I plan to.
Confession: I think this talk about magic in your world is a little out of hand and I want to go back to a time when I could do what I really wanted to do in this thread... Shunning others.
And I was having fun shunning people for not agreeing with me. :)
Wait, you havent shunned me yet? And here I thought I was giving you plenty of reasons to shun me. Oh well, I guess Ill have to try something else.
(This post was made completly in jest, so laugh at me and move on :D )
If you needed that style training to use magic, then no one would have discovered how to use magic (other than innate casters). Besides, mechanics and programming are very complex and specialized fields of knowledge and yet there are many people who have figured them out without training.There is no training on earth that gives you abilities where someone could not gain basic competence without training. It usually takes longer, but it is never impossible.
Consider that the first users of some ability had to of figured it out without training, then passed on what they figured out. Thus if magic can be learned in way, then training helps, a lot, but is not a requirement for the basics.
Also bear in mind that I am talking about commoners using basic magic, cantrips and first lvl spells. I am not talking about super advanced stuff like "Wishes" and "Miracles" not even metamagic.
I also havent even touched divine magic. Nor do I plan to.
Too bad, because the divine (or demonic) is often one source for magical technique. As well as one reason to mistrust magic users in general. You could spin magic either way; as a difficult academic discipline based on secret knowledge or as simply a difficult skill. The traditional D&Desque trope has been a difficult academic discipline with it's own secret language etc. Ymmv.
RW Confession:
I love electronica/club music and I think Lady Gaga is the bees knees. I also love swing music and would wear a zoot suit daily if I could get away with it.
ZOOT SUIT RIOT!
You have to be tall to pull one of those off, though.
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I adored the swing revival.RW Confession:
I love electronica/club music and I think Lady Gaga is the bees knees. I also love swing music and would wear a zoot suit daily if I could get away with it.
ZOOT SUIT RIOT!
You have to be tall to pull one of those off, though.
Same here. I still listen to RCR, Brian Setzer, and Squirrel Nut Zippers regularly. My wife taught west coast swing for a while as well.