Viability of 2 skill martial class (fighter) in Society?

[Rerednaw]

Well my other thread (Fighter-Archer in Society Play) got moved to Advice so I figured I'd restart it and focus on this topic. :)

A Fighter can fight. Great, all other classes can contribute to combat in some degree or another.

But what about out of combat?

Assuming you didn't dump int and left it at 10, you have 2 skills and a fairly short list to choose from. The 2 big skills, Perception and Diplomacy are not on that list and are not associated with a Fighter's main stats in any case. Of the monster lore check skills, you only have Dungeoneering.

So outside of roleplay which is awesome...but perhaps not generally goal advancing in Society what do you do?

When I first brought this up with my fighter-archer build Zen Archer, Paladin Archer, and Ranger Archer were brought up instead. Because they can also fight, and do a lot of other things outside of combat which is very important in Society Play. (Skills, spells, supernatural abilities, etc...)

To bump up skills I only see options that every other class can also do, and they for the most part already have an out of combat edge.

This is not a 'Fighters are sub-par' thread. I love fighters and played them all the time from 1st to 3.5. It's with the structure of organized play I am having difficulty in feeling like I'm contributing outside of combat. For that matter sometimes not in combat either, but that's okay :).

Fighters do have a ton of feats...what do you folks think about dropping one (Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, Manyshot, etc...) from the build and picking up extra traits to acquire a couple class skills? And dumping str/dex/con and raising int to acquire skill ranks?

I mean we can roleplay any class...the trick with Society is to roleplay and still provide a mechanical benefit, whether it is a skill, spell or ability.

Thoughts?

[Akerlof]

I agree that fighters have it tough in PFS: The scenarios are written to encourage players to have useful skills, the group composition means you don't always have people dedicated to noncombat roles, and factions mean that sometimes you have to do something outside your comfort zone without help.

Now that faction missions are gone, a lot of those random skill checks that only you can perform will hopefully be gone. Everybody on the team will be able to help pick up that the second Prestige Point in most cases.

I would suggest picking one or two useful out of combat skills and focusing on that. Picking up a trait to make Diplomacy a class skill is a natural, but something like Bluff or Sense Motive could make you useful, especially if you get creative and look for chances to use it.

Extra traits is interesting, but you've only got so many skill points to go around. I would consider taking skill focus or one of the two-skill-boosting feats (like Deft Hands or Deceitful) and just focus on maxing those one or two skills. Don't go crazy with the stat that drives that skill, bumping it to 12, or even leaving it at 10, will still let you be competent. (Don't dump one of your physical stats to get there, but accepting a 12 or 14 STR instead of a 16 in order to pick up a 12 or 13 Cha or Wis wouldn't hurt your main job significantly.)

Don't expect to be a mechanically better face than a Bard, but you can be good enough at Diplomacy if you invest into it that you will be good enough that the table lets you take the lead if you're entertaining about RPing it out, especially when the Bard is phoning it in. The goal isn't to outperform a class at a role for which they have the skills, stat synergy and class features to excel in. The goal is to be competent at a job, to be able to make the skill checks that a scenario requires in order to succeed. Max ranks in a class skill is a good start, a feat giving +2 or +3 also helps, so do magic items. Having a lot of points in the stat the skill is based on is really tertiary to performing well.

Another option would be to take another class for a level or two, Ranger seems natural, for the class skills and some starting skill points.

Keep in mind that Pathfinder Society doesn't require optimized combatants. A fighter archer who starts out with 18 Dex and 12 Str will do fine. Also remember that the marginal difference between 12 and 16 Str on an archer is tiny, especially at later levels. I wouldn't sacrifice Dex, though. You're pretty much permanently at a -4 penalty from cover due to large parties with a lot of meleers, players who don't understand tactics very well, and encounters that force your group into small areas.

Don't despair, fighters are great fun and can do exceptionally well in PFS. But remember that you can't simply follow the optimization guides and expect to be able to contribute in all the phases of a scenario. The up shot is, you don't need to be fully optimized for combat in order to be a successful combatant in PFS.

[RainyDayNinja]

This is one of the reasons I made my archer a Lore Warden fighter. With 16 INT (he's a Wayang with a racial bonus) and favored class, he gets 8 skill points per level, plus all INT-based skills as class skills. For an archer with high DEX, you won't miss the heavy armor stuff.

[kinevon]

Depending on how you want your Fighter to be an archer, you do have a bunch of options.

I have a vanilla fighter who uses a longbow as his primary weapon. Full Fighter feats, weapon training, armor training, etc. Human gets him an extra skill point. He is Andoran, so has taken the Andoran Eagle Knight vanity that gives him Diplomacy as a class skill, so he can contribute to social encounters, by aiding reliably, if nothing else. Of course, he has, along the way to 12th level, taken a level in both Cleric (Desna, Travel & Liberation) and Ranger (FE: Human). Even with Charisma as his dump stat (7), he has a middling Diplomacy, and some other useful skills, so can contribute out of combat. Other times, of course, he just stands in the back and looks threatening. ;)

Lore Warden has the trade-off of no heavy or medium armor proficiencies in exchange for Combat Expertise and extra skill points. Spend a feat on Trip or Disarm, and you can neuter most of the enemies who are going to get to melee with you.

Archer is most specialized for archery, but ranged combat maneuvers may not be a good trade-off. Unless you work the Snap Shot feat chain into your build, and it is still at a penalty.

The main thing to do with a Fighter, other than Lore Warden (the skill monkey of Fighters), for PFS, is to be picky about your skill choices, and also make sure you are willing to go less than optimum on some skills. Strong advice: spend a skill point in both Climb and Swim. That should be enough for a Fighter in light or medium armor to be able to take 10 for a 10+ in the result.

[Secane]

I crossed my now lv 9 Dwarf, Fighter (Lore Warden) Archer with a lvl of Crusader Cleric. And picked up Perception as a class skill via a trait.

With only just 12 Int, I squeezed out 6 skill points per level, with 2 of these points for Int-based skills.

It is totally doable if you mutli-class a little. A pure fighter-archer might have a harder time...

[CWheezy]

Yep, fighters do definitely have it tough in pathfinder as a whole, not just pfs

Just hope you party with high skill classes or something, and enjoy aiding another during diplomacy time.

Using a trait to get perception as a class skill is totally worth it by the way, might as well sink all your points into that.

Finally, when you get to high levels the wizards and clerics will have to start solving your problems, be proactive and spend prestige on scrolls of fly, oils of daylight, etc.

[FLite]

You know, you could go the other direction. Focus on aid another. Look at things that boost your aid another and then spread your skill points out to be able to aid another on out of combat tasks. you only need a few skill points in things that can only be used trained and things you have penalties in to be able to take ten out of combat.

and each class skill you spend a single point on, gives you effectively 4 points of benefit.

That way you are still contributing, and it can be fun roleplaying doing it. And you don't have the frustration of showing up to games with your one or two decent skills, only to find there is a bard or paladin or whatever who massively outclasses you and renders those skills irrelevant.

(Or you could go the third way. I had a player who was convinced that given a high enough intimidate, you didn't need any other social skills. He did actually manage to get a high enough level of skill that most people he ran into would gladly tell him whatever he wanted to know. Or, more precisely most people would fearfully tell him whatever they thought he wanted to hear. Needless to say, he had neglected to take any sense motive. He discovered there were other drawbacks as well...)

[Mystic Lemur]

Be a Lore Warden.

Dip a level in Rogue.

Be a Human.

Take a trait to give you better class skills.

If you can be really good at fighting and any one other thing (Disable Device, Diplomacy, UMD for healing, whatever) then, IMO, you're pulling your weight.

[kinevon]

FLite wrote:

You know, you could go the other direction. Focus on aid another. Look at things that boost your aid another and then spread your skill points out to be able to aid another on out of combat tasks. you only need a few skill points in things that can only be used trained and things you have penalties in to be able to take ten out of combat.

and each class skill you spend a single point on, gives you effectively 4 points of benefit.

That way you are still contributing, and it can be fun roleplaying doing it. And you don't have the frustration of showing up to games with your one or two decent skills, only to find there is a bard or paladin or whatever who massively outclasses you and renders those skills irrelevant.

(Or you could go the third way. I had a player who was convinced that given a high enough intimidate, you didn't need any other social skills. He did actually manage to get a high enough level of skill that most people he ran into would gladly tell him whatever he wanted to know. Or, more precisely most people would fearfully tell him whatever they thought he wanted to hear. Needless to say, he had neglected to take any sense motive. He discovered there were other drawbacks as well...)

Just as an FYI, you cannot Take 10 for Aid Another. Then again, if you can get the skill to at least a zero, you still have a better than 50% chance to successfully Aid.

[Mojorat]

Its actually fairly easy to make a fighter that can do other things. 20 pt buy let's you put a 14 in 4 stats can cover your combat stats and feats and still do fine in combat.

There was a thead on the boards called practical optimization that covered a balanced fighter who coupd fight and still do other stuff.

[David Bowles]

My dwarf fighter has a 14 INT at level 4 now and has reasonable rolls in some skills. Plus, he can climb ropes in fullplate!

[Secane]

David Bowles wrote:

My dwarf fighter has a 14 INT at level 4 now and has reasonable rolls in some skills. Plus, he can climb ropes in fullplate!

He is a Dwarf, can you expect anything less?

Dwarves for the win! :)

[David Bowles]

Yeah, too bad he keeps ending up in parties with 2+ pets that are always in my way :(

[NOG the Demoralizer]

My level 12 fighter took a 4 level dip into Alchemist and got a bunch of class skills and had a reasonable number of skills per level to fill a few out. Highlights include 11 disable device, 10 fly, 9 knowledge nature, 17 perception, 11 spellcraft, 9 survival, and 11 in swim. While I still rely on other party members to do charisma based skill checks for me (a circlet of persuasion helps me assist) I was able to get all but 3 prestige points along his career.

It doesn't have to be alchemist, you could dip rogue or bard, but it would be another option for you to consider. Alchemist was just nice for alchemical allocation which lets me make near unlimited use of my fly, invis, see invis, shield, heroism, and now barkskin and stoneskin potions (chronicle rewards). The mutagen is an added bonus for melee as well.

His stats are 22/18/14/16/12/7 for reference. Pretty good reward for losing a touch of BaB.

[BigNorseWolf]

Just get buy with a little help from your friends. With everyone doing the same non faction faction mission now, its easier than ever.

[Thalin]

It depends; the Lore Warden is obviously popular, but even trip-fighters tend to have 14 int. Throw on human (or favored class) gets you 4 points, and traits can give you two class skills of your choice.

Or just have fun and roleplay up the incompetent guy outside of combat. Usually someone else can take care of social encounters, and 70-80% of society is combat.

[Righty_]

I like tactician for fighter.
And adding 3 levels of shadow dancer.

[Eric Saxon]

You can get Perception as a fighter in return for being a worshiper of Abadar. And Diplomacy for ease of faith. I never have any PC have less than 14 INT, including Fighters. 14+2 for race is good enough for fighters, when it comes to STR and you don't have to have dump stats.

[Mahtobedis]

My Twf viking gets five sp per level. 2 from int, 2 from class, 1 from favored class

[Luthril]

Martial classes get skills? I thought that was a wizard/bard/rogue class feature... huh.

Just kidding.

Always do at least 2 things well in PFS... doesn't mean you should compromise your main role, but 13 or 14 int and 1 point every level into whatever class knowledge skill you get is always welcome. Shoot for at least one skill at 6+ at level 1 and go from there and for a fighter with all those feats spend one on skill focus to get a +3.

Just my opinion.

[Xot]

Righty_ wrote:

I like tactician for fighter.

And adding 3 levels of shadow dancer.

Prestige classes are another good way to get some skill love for your fighter.

[David Bowles]

But I really love weapon and armor training!

[Celestial Pegasus]

David Bowles wrote:

But I really love weapon and armor training!

Problem solved, then! Your character can fight, plus can train not only weapons... but also armor! That's three things your character can do well.

More helpfully, consider picking up a Handy Haversack and stuffing it full of random junk. You'd be surprised how useful this is to the party. "10 foot bridge? I've got a collapsible plank. Let me just rig up a support to it real quick and it'll work as one.", "Oh hey, I've got a skeleton key, it might open this lock.", "Got a crowbar here if you need to pry that open," "I brought some cards and dice if you need to pass yourself off as a gambler to those folks over there," and so on.

[David Bowles]

I was referring to how many prestige classes give that stuff up.

[Matthew Trent]

Fighters are fine. I love having a good fighter in my party.

Lawn gnomes who don't even try to interact / aid a group on the other hand are a pain.

[Pontificor the Great]

Matthew Trent wrote:

Lawn gnomes who don't even try to interact / aid a group on the other hand are a pain.

I always intra-act. In-fact many times i am often dragged away to stop intra-acting. Cuase us gnomes are awesomerest.

[Artanthos]

The only reason a fighter is restricted to 2 skill points per level is if you choose not to invest in more skills.

A fighter can be viable in PFS with 4-5 skills without much effort.

[Artanthos]

Luthril wrote:

Martial classes get skills? I thought that was a wizard/bard/rogue class feature... huh.

Just kidding.

Always do at least 2 things well in PFS... doesn't mean you should compromise your main role, but 13 or 14 int and 1 point every level into whatever class knowledge skill you get is always welcome. Shoot for at least one skill at 6+ at level 1 and go from there and for a fighter with all those feats spend one on skill focus to get a +3.

Just my opinion.

Don't bother with skill focus. Take Additional Traits and pick a could of extra class skills, with an additional +1 bonus.

[Dhjika]

Artanthos wrote:

Just my opinion.

Don't bother with skill focus. Take Additional Traits and pick a could of extra class skills, with an additional +1 bonus.

discover that you were raised by halflings (adopted: halflfings) and get the Helpful trait - where with your low ranks in skills you can assist aiming at a 10 and provide +4 rather than +2

[Rerednaw]

Okay, looks like exchanging fighter feats are the community consensus. With a vote or two for lower stats (14 str/17 dex/13 con?) to bump up int to 14.

Which feat do you give up to pick up 2 skills:

Deadly Aim?
Precise Shot?
Manyshot?
Clustered Shot?
Point Blank Master?

Note I would prefer to keep at least:
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization

Or forget about bumping up will save (Indomitable Faith) and initiative (Reactionary) with starting traits and pick up 2 skills that way? (Perception and probably a social skill)

Going with a non-human for enhanced vision.

[RainyDayNinja]

For an archery build, I wouldn't try to make room for Additional Traits. What skills are you interested in?

[Artanthos]

Rerednaw wrote:

Going with a non-human for enhanced vision.

I usually start human and pick up an ioun stone.

[R2D2TS]

If you want low-light you can take the bloodline race trait Bloodline of Dragons from Ultimate Campaign.

The PostMonster General wrote:

Blood of Dragons: Long ago, your ancestors' blood mixed with that of dragons. Choose one of the following: gain a +1 trait bonus on Perception checks, gain low-light vision, or gain a +2 trait bonus on saving throws against effects that cause sleep or paralysis.

[Luthril]

Rerednaw wrote:

Okay, looks like exchanging fighter feats are the community consensus. With a vote or two for lower stats (14 str/17 dex/13 con?) to bump up int to 14.

Which feat do you give up to pick up 2 skills:

Deadly Aim?
Precise Shot?
Manyshot?
Clustered Shot?
Point Blank Master?

Note I would prefer to keep at least:
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization

Or forget about bumping up will save (Indomitable Faith) and initiative (Reactionary) with starting traits and pick up 2 skills that way? (Perception and probably a social skill)

Going with a non-human for enhanced vision.

Because you are going to have a super high dex by level 12 and I'm sure get Imp Init, for me Reactionary is passable.

If I was building a straight archer this what I would do, I didn't drop any of your feats, but if you'll go Human and get your enhanced vision from an item later, the extra skills and feat make for a more versatile character. You'll notice high damage on the bow (I left deadly aim, point blank and rapid shot on in herolab oops)

Archer:

Archer
Human (Taldan) Fighter (Archer) 12
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +12; Senses low-light vision; Perception +24
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 26, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 124 (12d10+48)
Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +7
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +3 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +2) +21/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+18/x3)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +20; CMD 31
Feats: Agile Maneuvers, Alertness, Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim -4/+8, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Manyshot, Point Blank Master (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Traits: Captain's Blade (Acrobatics), Eyes and Ears of the City
Skills: Acrobatics +24, Climb +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +17, Knowledge (engineering) +17, Perception +24, Ride +12, Sense Motive +3, Survival +5 (+7 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +10
Languages Common, Draconic, Hallit
SQ safe shot, trick shots (trick shot: disarm, trick shot: sunder, trick shot: trip)
Other Gear +3 Mithral Kikko armor, +3 Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +2), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +6, Eyes of the owl, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of feather falling, Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), 2520 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Ring of feather falling Feather fall activates if you fall more than 5 ft.
Safe Shot (Ex) You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks with your Archetype's focused weapon (Bows or Crossbows).
Trick Shot: Disarm Disarm with a bow at 30' and -4 CMB.
Trick Shot: Sunder Sunder with a bow at 30' and -4 CMB.
Trick Shot: Trip Trip with a bow at 30' and -4 CMB.

I used 85k to shop for level 12 gear, this is low balling what you'll have earned by 12.

He has a few skills for out of combat, and is still very deadly. If you hate Andoran, drop Captain's Blade for something to "class skill" another Knowledge and put 12 points in it instead(maybe local for gather info), I personally love the ability to get out of threatened squares with a high Acrobatics. Just my opinion. I'm sure others can suggest better or more optimized builds. Hope this helps

EDITS:typo :)

[kinevon]

@Luthril: A few questions on your build:

Since you went for Fighter (Archer), you have a feat and a class ability that are duplicated: Point Blank Master (Longbow) and Safe Shot (Bows)

What did you take Agile Maneuvers for? Using the trick shot to do combat maneuvers already uses Dex since that is what the weapon's attack is based off of.

I am assuming that the clear spindle Ioun stone is supposed to be in the wayfinder, so it provides the mental protection?

What's the point of Toughness? So he can survive a bit better against damage spells?

[Curaigh]

Rerednaw wrote:

Which feat do you give up to pick up 2 skills:

Deadly Aim?
Precise Shot?
Manyshot?
Clustered Shot?
Point Blank Master?

As a fighter your not giving up a feat, you are merely delaying it. So i would 'delay' one of the feats at the end of a feat chain (point blank master? clustered shot?), but that just me.

[Luthril]

kinevon wrote:

@Luthril: A few questions on your build:

Since you went for Fighter (Archer), you have a feat and a class ability that are duplicated: Point Blank Master (Longbow) and Safe Shot (Bows)

What did you take Agile Maneuvers for? Usi the trick shot to do combat maneuvers already uses Dex since thast is what the weapon's attack is based off of.

I am assuming the clear spindle Ioun stone is supposed to be in the wayfinder, so it provides the mental protection?

What's the point of Toughness? So he can survive a bit better against damage spells?

I just threw it together... I used all his suggested feats... I'd drop PBM Longbow since it dupes Safe shot and maybe pick up Imp. Crit for the Longbow. Toughness is a must on anyone who can spare a feat. Agile Maneuvers does bump your CMB for trick shots, I didn't know you figured you CMB differently for ranged attacks that is nifty. Ranged Disarm comes in handy for holy symbols and wands as the classes who use those have CMDs that are still doable at higher levels. This was all hypothetical. If I'm getting one or two feats back I'd look into rounding out his non-combat skills... Maybe Scholar to bump up the two knowledge skills and/or Skill Focus: Acrobatics. Yes Clear spindle is a must to avoid from Dom Person.

[Tim Statler]

I can easily get 4 to 5 skill points for a fighter. Go int 13 (opens up whole feat chains as well), use you FC bonus for Skill points (or take the human racial feat "Fast Learner" at 1st level,and if Human you get an extra skill point.

That's 2+1+1+1=5 if you are human. Four for other races.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5ROhf5Soqs

[Gwen Smith]

Instead of using a feat for additional traits, you can pick up the feat Cosmopolitan:
"You can speak and read two additional languages of your choice. In addition, choose two Intelligence-, Wisdom-, or Charisma-based skills. Those skills always count as class skills for you."

Also, PBM doesn't duplicate Snap Shot. Snap Shot only doesn't provoke when you take AoOs with the bow. PBM lets you not provoke AoOs the rest of the time.

[kinevon]

Dorothy Lindman wrote:

Instead of using a feat for additional traits, you can pick up the feat Cosmopolitan:

"You can speak and read two additional languages of your choice. In addition, choose two Intelligence-, Wisdom-, or Charisma-based skills. Those skills always count as class skills for you."

Also, PBM doesn't duplicate Snap Shot. Snap Shot only doesn't provoke when you take AoOs with the bow. PBM lets you not provoke AoOs the rest of the time.

Safe Shot, not Snap Shot:

Safe Shot (Ex) wrote:

At 9th level, an archer does not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks with a bow. This ability replaces weapon training 2.

Now, admittedly, if there is some way to take PBM with a Fighter bonus feat, then retrain it at 8th for free, maybe take it for a couple of levels.

But that would cost a couple of levels of Manyshot, insead, then, probably.

@Luthril: Agile Maneuvers won't bump your CMB with the archer trick shots, since they are Combat Maneuvers made with a bow, they would already use Dex instead of Str for the check.

[BigNorseWolf]

This worked "Well enough" when you ostensibly had to do your own faction mission. Its going to work even better now that the party is all doing the same mission.

[Luthril]

Great! so to distill two comments..... drop Agile Maneuver s and pick up Cosmopolitan and maybe drop 12 skill points in Linguistics and now you have another good in and out of combat skill.

[Rerednaw]

Curaigh wrote:

Rerednaw wrote:

Which feat do you give up to pick up 2 skills:

Deadly Aim?
Precise Shot?
Manyshot?
Clustered Shot?
Point Blank Master?

As a fighter your not giving up a feat, you are merely delaying it. So i would 'delay' one of the feats at the end of a feat chain (point blank master? clustered shot?), but that just me.

Sorry since Society caps at 12 you won't have room for all the recommended Fighter feats when you burn one for traits. Hence my question. :)

Every suggestion I've seen while usuable has not recommended which archer build feat they would drop in favor of gaining two traits or alternate.

Maybe I am not clear enough in understanding. Here is an entire feat run here:

1-point blank shot
1-precise shot
2-rapid shot
3-wf: bow
4-ws: bow
5-deadly aim
6-Manyshot
7-Clustered shots
8-Improved Critical
9-Point Blank Master
10-Snap Shot
11-Improved Precise Shot

Okay which feat do you drop from the build to pick up 2 class skills?

Anything past level 6 already means you won't have it for half your career.

My thinking is perhaps one of the last 3 feats would be one I drop since the character will only have 9/6/3 games left at that point anyway. And you live without Rapid Shot until level 3, Clustered Shots until 8th, Improved Crit until 9th etc. as all the remaining feats get pushed back.

Or perhaps bite the bullet and give up darkvision, the second +2 stat, lose 3 resistances, the pair of +2 skills and see invisibility at level 1 for the human feat and +1 skill point. Though based on the single season 5 I've played so far, he would have died if he was human. :)

[Fromper]

You forgot your human bonus feat, so you get an extra feat at level 1. And I'd probably start pushing things back at level 3 if I wanted to squeeze in another feat. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot are the bare minimum to be a good archer, so don't delay any of those.

The other question is just how much damage do you really need to do in a round? Just because there are all these feats to pump up your damage total, it doesn't mean that a PC who can only do 90% of that damage output is weak. Giving up a little bit of damage (probably in the form of Weapon Specialization) to invest a feat in being much more useful outside of combat seems like a decent trade off to me.

[Rerednaw]

Fromper wrote:

You forgot your human bonus feat, so you get an extra feat at level 1. ...

Not human. Which is why I made that list of things you'd give up. And the fact he would have died in the last adventure if he had been human.

Fromper wrote:

...how much damage do you really need to do in a round? ...

Realistically I don't expect to top the DPR charts even if he had the full progression. I was wondering how far we can drop him so he can keep up out of combat with all the other classes that can and will out-fight him AND get the free out of combat bonuses (extra skills, abilities, spells, etc.) Not to mention if the alternate classes also decided to go human or such, again the fighter is behind. I wanted to see how viable it was.

At this point I am considering the Zen Archer instead. Lose hit points, AC, BAB, a lot of damage, but get all the extra choice monk skills, plus a hefty dose of various Su abilities that can make him a halfway decent scout or such.

But I just *like* playing fighters :)

Maybe I'll make both.

[kinevon]

My personal opions are included in the modified feat run shown here:

1-point blank shot
1-precise shot
2-wf: bow
3-rapid shot
4-ws: bow
5-Point Blank Master
6-Manyshot
7-deadly aim
8-Cosmopolitan
9-Snap Shot
10-Improved Snap Shot
11-Improved Precise Shot

Some of my biases:
WF ranks higher than Rapid Shot because hitting outranks more attacks that miss more.

PBM outranks Deadly Aim because being able to hit the guy while based outranks doing, maybe, lots of damage IF he doesn't do a Disarm or Trip AoO on you.

Clustered Shots is of very little benefit to a well-equipped archer. It only has a real benefit against DR/- and hardness. Any other DR can be overcome with the right arrow being used.

Improved Critical is not of great value to a bow. And a bow would be legal to put Keen on, IIRC. Even with the 19-20 crit range, you just aren't, in my experience, going to get a lot of criticals. YMMV, my dice might just suck that much.

Improved Snap Shot increases your threatened area, and means that you can get those CMB attacks off when he is not next to you. If you do it right, you trip or disarm the guy next to one of your allies. Bad things happen for him, then.

Of course, Snap Shot/Improved Snap Shot work best when you have Combat Reflexes, so you can get lots of AoOs off. And that also lets you provide a flank for your allies longer. Snap Shot's threat ends when you run out of potential AoOs.

On a side note: I have seen situations where the PC who had Darkvision became the priority target, because they were the only threat that counted. One dead dwarf later, and the rest of the party was running away, dragging the dwarf's body with them. An Oil of Daylight is your friend...

[Dhjika]

kinevon wrote:

Some of my biases:
WF ranks higher than Rapid Shot because hitting outranks more attacks that miss more.

....

Clustered Shots is of very little benefit to a well-equipped archer. It only has a real benefit against DR/- and hardness. Any other DR can be overcome with the right arrow being used.

If you run the numbers, the chance you'll get at least ONE hit is better at all but the highest armor classes shooting two slightly less to-hit-chance arrows than one slightly more to-hit chance arrow [you calculate the chance that Both arrows miss, and subtract from 1). You use up more arrows, of course, but arrows are relatively cheap.

The right arrow being picked is predicated on you knowing what the DR is, which if no one in the group has the right skill - may mean you don't know.

It depends a lot on whether you travel with the same group of folks most of the time, or if you land on almost random tables each time. I've been at plenty of tables where only one person has the right knowledge skill and they roll low or that no one has know: dungeoneering.

[BigNorseWolf]

DHkika wrote:

The right arrow being picked is predicated on you knowing what the DR is, which if no one in the group has the right skill - may mean you don't know.

Or the experimental method.

Silver arrow, that hurt him?

Nope.

Cold iron?

Nope.

Adamantium?

Nope.

Electrum?

NOooOOOOOooooOOOOOOOo foiled by a 2e player!

[Dhjika]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

DHkika wrote:

The right arrow being picked is predicated on you knowing what the DR is, which if no one in the group has the right skill - may mean you don't know.

Or the experimental method.

Silver arrow, that hurt him?

If you are effective - chances are you'll always hurt them - but perhaps not to the full potential

so if you have a very low plus damage maybe - but if you are doing 1d8+5 damage - chances are they'll always be hurt.

[DesolateHarmony]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

DHkika wrote:

The right arrow being picked is predicated on you knowing what the DR is, which if no one in the group has the right skill - may mean you don't know.

Or the experimental method.

Silver arrow, that hurt him?

My archer's arrows are all cold iron, with silver, adamantine or ghost salt weapon blanches. (Well, a few are just cold iron.) It is fairly easy to tell who gets the ghost salt, so the real choice is: silver, adamantine, or neither? I think that saves a step off of BNW even.