I am somewhat amused that people are using characters like Sebastian (i.e. Jack the Ripper) and Queen Mab to justify Iomedae's actions. Paragons of justice and honor, those two! Right? Right?!? Those two are LN at best.
Since I brought up Mab, I should clarify that my intent was not to justify Iomedae's actions. I would personally consider Mab LE.
I was just using the scene to illustrate a similar situation in which the harm was unintentional, but happened simply because she was so powerful that even her lightest touch could cause harm to mortals. Clearly wrong in retrospect, but I still like it.
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I dunno, it doesn't really seem like torture to me any more than slapping someone awake to get them out of a burning building or something. And yeah, at high level mythic, a couple d6s of sonic damage is just a slap in the face... which she heals immediately afterword.
And I don't think she's forcing the PCs to answer the questions... Maybe that could have been more clear. It only says what happens if they answer correctly or incorrectly, not if they refuse to answer. If the PCs don't accept her mission, or don't want to answer her questions, then I don't think she would blast them. But maybe that's a question for the creative director.
If it IS a question for the Creative Director, then...
...She ONLY blasts the PCs if she thinks they need it because they're not going to survive in the Abyss. The sonic damage is supposed to be a wake up call.
If the PCs treat the encounter seriously, and give her the respect she deserves (this includes answering her questions or at least honestly trying to), then no, she won't blast them with sound. If the PCs fail to answer the questions correctly but comport themselves appropriately in the situation (as indicated in the text by being humble or self confident or by wrestling with the moral and ethical repercussions or whatever), then she won't blast them with sound. She might not give them the rewards they would have earned if they DID answer the questions, but she won't blast them for trying and failing.
It's basically a slap on the wrist to high level mythic characters is what it is. A "heads-up, pay attention" type thing.
Were she interviewing/speaking to lower level and/or non-mythic characters, she wouldn't blast them with that type of damage—but then again, she wouldn't be approaching them with such an important mission if they weren't high-level mythic characters.
I think this is a big part of the problem By this point the player characters are quite probably the only people capable of rescuing the herald on Golarion there also the reason the crusade that she is pretty much seen as the Deity off hasent failed at least 3 times by that point. (Inital corruption of the stones foiled by the pc's, retaking of the citadel to restore moral done by the pc's and destroying the production of the elixers that were superpowering the demonic forces done by the Pc's.)
At this point they are some of the most veteran warriors around not some green cadets just out of boot camp.If there not ready after all they have been through then a 'slap on the wrist' is not going to make them more so.
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This. Totally this. Of course I alluded to this with an earlier post but still. Totally this.
Yes, foiling the corruption of the Wardstones was a group effort with the remnants of Kenabres, but quite a bit of what they did after that was using their own resources. Ultimately, the Labyrinth would follow a similar route in that you are best able to rescue or eliminate the threat of the Herald by finding and forming alliances with individuals either who could be redeemed or who are in need of rescue while if you fail to do this, you'll need luck to survive (just as you'd need luck to finish books 3 and 4 successfully without making alliances and the like).
These few heroes are legends made flesh. They are as Iomedae herself once was. Or even her mentor, Aroden. And she treats them as a schoolmarm scolding unruly children. Worse. She treats them with no respect, and yet they have earned respect. Perhaps a disciplined and seasoned group of players would just roll with the punches and accept this plot coupon as needed to get to the quest, but plenty of players will sense this lack of respect and dig in their heels.
These few heroes are legends made flesh. They are as Iomedae herself once was. Or even her mentor, Aroden. And she treats them as a schoolmarm scolding unruly children. Worse. She treats them with no respect, and yet they have earned respect. Perhaps a disciplined and seasoned group of players would just roll with the punches and accept this plot coupon as needed to get to the quest, but plenty of players will sense this lack of respect and dig in their heels.
While the PCs have earned respect compared to other mortals, there is a huge scale going on here. Merely by speaking to them directly and "in-person", Iomedae is showing them a lot more respect than she has shown anyone else. Even Galfrey, a Queen who has reigned in Iomedae's name and led the crusade for over a hundred years, and who is considered worthy of becoming Iomedae's herald, never got a face-to-face chat with the goddess. The fact that Iomedae is giving that to the PCs shows a combination of desperation and respect to them.
That being said, even with their legendary powers, the are nothing power-wise compared to a god. She probably can see potential in them, but they are merely the strongest insects to her. Also, the scolding can be seen as a measure of respect. My sister rode horses as a teen, and her riding instructor would get on her case and yell at her all the time. The reason? He saw that she could be good. He wouldn't have bothered yelling at her if he didn't see any potential. So you can view the "torture" as more of a "I know you are better than this, be better than this". If she didn't respect the PCs, and see their potential, she would not bother with them at all.
Did that riding instructor also beat the crap out of your sister when she didn't do as he wanted?
I have to say, this has been a magnificently fascinating conversation to follow.
I can't say where I fall on the spectrum because I do not have the book. I'm not able to read everything in context.
I can see the points made by both sides here.
Question for the GMs who have made it to this scene. HOW have you portrayed this scene? Not just with particular words and whatnot. How did *you* as the GM, the scene setter, act?
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Well, I have had to adapt it, since I'm running it in my GF's homebrew world, but, essentially, this is what I did:
I had the god who's Herald was kidnapped (the herald was also his son), send them on the mission, and a different god intervened and gave them this test, since he feared that the first was not acting rationally, but out of grief.
In that case, it made much more sense, since despite the hero's fame and success, there were mitigating circumstances that made it easier to believe that tests were required. I agree with others that have said, in some form or another, that a third party (Regathiel, or a Solar) being involved does make it flow more sensibly.
Did that riding instructor also beat the crap out of your sister when she didn't do as he wanted?
Do you think Iomedae yelling at someone would do less than 20d6 damage? Just looking at her requires a DC 40 Will save. Just raising her shield forces a DC 40 Fort save to not be brought to -1 and she isn't taking any overt aggressive action. If just looking at her requires a DC 40 Will save, hearing her yell probably is instant death or at the very least instant deafness with no save for a mortal. 20d6 is probably not even equivalent to Iomedae tickling someone.
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She can let people bypass the DC 40 Will save and the DC 40 Fort is the equivilent of a shield bash for her.
And the first blast of horns is 5d6, so yes, she can withhold her power easily enough.
Granted, I have a cleric and a paladin of Iomedae in my group and the other two are flavors of Good as well, so it's not like they're going to get hit.
But as I see it, Iomedae actually reminds me of Severus Snape. "Open your mind, Potter!" Slam.
The d6 damage isn't the problem to me. It's the fact that it's unwarranted damage and no explanation as to why Iomedae feels their answer is wrong. Which is why my original suggestion for a fix was the horns blow out the glass of the cathedral and the glass reforms into scenes depicting what Iomedae was expecting for an answer.
Then the d6 damage is incidental to the PCs being given what the answer should have been.
And the first blast of horns is 5d6, so yes, she can withhold her power easily enough.
The blast of horns for failing to answer questions isn't her, it is from choirs of unseen angels and archons. Her minions can do less than 20d6, yes, but the only aggressive action Iomedae is listed as able to do are:
- Permanently deafen and DC 40 Will save to permanently mute a character- DC 40 Fortitude save to reduce someone to -1 HP.
- I suppose rescinding the ability to look at her without saving and/or banishing the PCs count
It is entirely possible, and likely, she can do less than this, but on a the scale of power where she is listed as being able to do those things on a whim and without any effort whatsoever, 20d6 damage is ridiculously minuscule. So again, for the scale of power she operates under, the blasts of sound from her choir are a minor scolding. If she was actually torturing the PCs, it would be so much worse.
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But if those answers are just spoon fed to them, they don't mean anything. They have to mean something, have come from a combination of experience and observations that have brought about an understanding. The wrong answers are not just a bad score on a test, but put all of the Inner Sea, maybe even the whole world, in jeopardy. All the information is there for them, the things they've experienced provide the foundation, and Iomedae draw analogies to her own well documented life events to provide context. They need to "awaken" because if they don't, well, consult the Worldwound expansion map...
Do you think Iomedae yelling at someone would do less than 20d6 damage?
Yes, she is a god. She can do whatever the hell she likes and have that affect people in whatever way she likes. That means that she chose to harm the PC's.
Just looking at her requires a DC 40 Will save.
By her will. If she wants this not to happen, she does.
So, yeah, Iomedae chooses to torture the PC's who behave in a way she doesn't like, after abducting them from their home. Why exactly is she a LG god again?
No, because for the second question if no one is conflicted about their answer, then it's an auto failure of that question. Even though they answered it to the best of their ability.
Yeah, this was the deal-breaker for me. Iomedae's question is very unfortunately worded: I don't have the book in front of me, but it's essentially "Is redemption an option, or must evildoers always be killed?"
Suppose that you're a worshipper of Sarenrae. Are you going to be the least little bit conflicted over being asked to choose between "redemption is an option" and "redemption is never an option"? No. Sarenrae teaches with 100% clarity that redemption is an option. So you'll answer correctly by the precepts of your faith, and then you'll get blasted because you weren't conflicted.
Suppose that the whole campaign has been an ongoing struggle over this exact question, and the PCs have spent a huge amount of time working on it (our current Jade Regent party has, to some extent). Suppose that therefore the PCs have a clearly worked out group consensus, and they present it. And they get blasted; they're not conflicted or hesitant or unsure.
Furthermore, Iomedae doesn't rebuke them with an explanation; she just blasts them. If I say "Sarenrae teaches that redemption is always possible" and I eat 20d6 sonic damage, I am not going to understand that Iomedae thinks I should be more conflicted. I am, frankly, going to think that what I have here is something pretending to be Iomedae, probably a demon lord. And then we will get to try out the "what happens if the PCs fight Iomedae", or "what happens if the PCs teleport away and don't get the mission." Which is really not what anyone wants out of this scene.
I think this scene is a reflection of a basic mistake. Humility is a good thing. Humiliation is a bad thing. You can't make someone humble, you can only humiliate them: not useful, unless your real goal is to cow them into doing what you want. And that is not a viable approach to 18th level Mythic characters.
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Basically, yes. Socratic teaching method.A LG god should at least enlighten their people as to why they need to send them off, or why they are looking for certain criteria in them.
Because if they don't fit her criteria, exactly who else is she going to send?
How much can she tell them? There is no second try on this, the answered wrong, and her displeasure rings forth. Certainly let's them know how upset the goddess is at this. They're not going to get hints when they have to make these hard choices later. They need to THINK about what they've said, how they acted, and hopefully when the moment is at hand yet again, like if the redemption they offer only comes at the end of a sword for example, they'll think back to that wrong answer, and give their own present actions at least a moment's thought.
But if she just tells them, "Hey guys, I was looking for you to think about that a little more. Remember that for next time, k?" They're probably not.
This isn't something to be hinted at. This is trying to foster enlightenment, and unfortunately it's on an ever tightening time table.
And I think that a follower of Sarenrae answering without hesitation would not prompt the trumpets (and that's just a basic adaptation for your group from the expected Iomedae followers). After all this is something that they have, through virtue of joining the faith of the Dawn Flower, thought about, and have come to the decision on.
Mags, I don't think Iomedae has the proper mens rea for it to be considered an abduction...
Sorry if this already got asked, but do the non-corrupted Herald's stats appear in another book somewhere?
Sorry if this already got asked, but do the non-corrupted Herald's stats appear in another book somewhere?
Yeah. Council of Thieves: The Sixfold Trial.
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Sorry if this already got asked, but do the non-corrupted Herald's stats appear in another book somewhere?Yeah. Council of Thieves: The Sixfold Trial.
Thanks!
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Making the Herald tougher:
The Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth has no heart, instead pulsing in his chest lies a flawless Nahyndrian crystal, mined from the Midnight Isle of Nahyndri itself. While the crystal beats as the Herald's heart, the Herald is considering Mythic Rank 10, gaining an extra 2 uses of Mythic Power, a surge die of d12, and 20 additional HP. Additionally, the Herald gains access to all Mythic versions of his Spell-Like Abilities.
Removing the Nahyndrian crystal requires the Herald be willing, helpless, or grappled by the person attempting to remove the crystal. Additionally, it requires a DC 25 Strength check to pull the crystal free of the Herald's body. Once the crystal is removed from the Herald's body, the Heart of the Herald may be placed into the Herald's body with all effects as the Heartless(Ex) ability.
If the Herald has nothing in his chest, he may as an immediate action cause the unattended Nahydrian crystal to return back into his body. If the crystal is attended, it is a standard action and requires the holder of the crystal to make a Reflex save, DC 29. This save is Con based.
--Edit
Additionally if you'd like, like him use his Summon ability as Quickened. Then he can actually get 1d4 labyrinth minotaurs to help out most likely.
Making the Herald tougher:
** spoiler omitted **
Quite an Improvement. Good job. This should make him at least CR 21
May I add something to make thing really scary for PCs?Smart thinking!
But what if the corruption of the herald was obtained by infusing him with a particular raw, just extracted crystal containing the essence of Hepzamirah, Baphomet's daughter?
Since she died inside the mine, and she's the mythic offspring of a demon lord, at her death part of her essence may well have become a crystal herself, forming a fist-size purple gem that Baphomet may have grabbed while emerging from her body, before all the commotion. It can be put inside the heart cavity without being seen from outside. (Search DC 20 to locate inside there)
In this way, the herald corruption was done by essentially fusing in him the remains of a powerful Pcs enemy, and the removal of it becomes a greater challenge because the little thing itself fights back, trying not only to corrupt with negative levels anything it touches (like a normal nahyndrian crystal), but also to pierce who hold it (2 +23 meele touch attach, 1d6 damage/considerated mythic and adamantine)and force on them the same effect of a Nahyndrian elixir consumation.
I always like to give bag guys a chance to strike back when you don't expect them!
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It's of interesting note that for the Herald, his Heart inflicts negative levels and so would the crystal.
Additionally, you require two hands to grapple with or take penalties. And you can't grapple with no hands. So it would require two people to grapple him to get the crystal out and the heart in.
Additionally, Atonement only works on the Herald anyways if the Heart is in his chest or hand.
Forcing a player to hold onto the crystal removes one hand from that player, and also forces them to eat negative levels.
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However, this is all a moot point against a good Wild Arcana'd Dominate Monster (CL 20, DC 36ish) with some decent Spell Penetration (possibly the trait even). The Herald has no protection against charm or dominate. Which, while likely to give him a second save, will make him willing enough to let you just sit there and gank him with the Heart/Atonements.
For some reason, I really want to use Beluiri from Tome of Horrors Complete in this volume. Even if she's just one of Baphomet's retinue when he teleports in to confront the party.
It's of interesting note that for the Herald, his Heart inflicts negative levels and so would the crystal.
Additionally, you require two hands to grapple with or take penalties. And you can't grapple with no hands. So it would require two people to grapple him to get the crystal out and the heart in.
Additionally, Atonement only works on the Herald anyways if the Heart is in his chest or hand.
Forcing a player to hold onto the crystal removes one hand from that player, and also forces them to eat negative levels.
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However, this is all a moot point against a good Wild Arcana'd Dominate Monster (CL 20, DC 36ish) with some decent Spell Penetration (possibly the trait even). The Herald has no protection against charm or dominate. Which, while likely to give him a second save, will make him willing enough to let you just sit there and gank him with the Heart/Atonements.
Then let's be extra creepy and enrich his deflector shield with a corrupted version of his protective aura that grant's him globe on invulnerability, magic circle against good and that, by expending mythic points, allow it to work against mythic spells!
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So wait. This happened before to Iomedae when she was the leader of the Knights of Ozem. Back then it was the Shining Crusade and Arazni. Now it is the Fifth Crusade and her Herald. Man she sure has bad luck with Heralds...
Well yeah, but they are "only" CR 15 outsiders after all. And bluntly things like this can happen, if you put yourself and your troops in harms way.
Arazni was Aroden's Herald wasn't she?
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Arazni was Aroden's Herald wasn't she?
The warrior-goddess Arazni was the herald of Aroden, demigod, and the patron saint of the Knights of Ozem of Lastwall. Iomedae was the leader of the Knights of Ozem.
Arazni was summoned by the Knights of Ozem in 3818 AR to lead them in battle but was humiliated and slain by Tar-Baphon in 3823 AR, her broken body thrown back to her knights during the Battle of Three Sorrows.
Flash forward to the Fifth Crusade.
Iomedae loses track of her Herald and then this happens: a desperate priest called upon Iomedae’s herald to aid in an attack on the demon-ruled city of Raliscrad, Baphomet saw his chance. He dispatched Ylleshka, the warden of his great Ineluctable Prison, to the battle. Her capture of the herald and retreat to the Abyss broke the crusader army and saved Raliscrad from a critical defeat, and now one of Iomedae’s closest agents is the Horned Lord’s prisoner.
Then much like what happened to Arazni, the Hand is corrupted to the side of evil.
So yeah Iomedae is bad luck on Heralds.
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So you're saying the PCs shouldn't take on the duties of Iomedae's Herald at the end of this book then, right? :D
Then much like what happened to Arazni, the Hand is corrupted to the side of evil.So yeah Iomedae is bad luck on Heralds.
Exactly! I mean how do you misplace your Herald? I'd be like thanks but not thanks. Good luck on finding a new schmuck!
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Or made him at least equal to a planetar, maybe?
==Aelryinth
I found the herald confounding on many levels.
*Iomedae is a full-on godddess. When he served her, he was CR 15. When he is corrupted by Baphomet (a demigod), he's CR 20/MR 8.
*How did he get corrupted so fast? The Flayed Angel in the last segment apparently took hundreds of years worth of torture before he was corrupted.
*How exactly did he get captured so fast? Ylleshka is CR 22, so that is a significant advantage over the herald. I'm guessing that she plane-shifted in, grappled him, and then plane-shifted back. Except...can she even plane-shift?
She came back with 2 victims, not 1, remember.
==Aelryinth
So you're saying the PCs shouldn't take on the duties of Iomedae's Herald at the end of this book then, right? :D
Then much like what happened to Arazni, the Hand is corrupted to the side of evil.So yeah Iomedae is bad luck on Heralds.
Exactly! I mean how do you misplace your Herald? I'd be like thanks but not thanks. Good luck on finding a new schmuck!
She really needs a GPS implant on them;)
Alleran, I can't click Favorite enough times for that. ;)
Alleran, I can't click Favorite enough times for that. ;)
that was a hilarious post for sure:) had me laughing my ass off:)
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Indeed very funny and in hindsight kind of makes sense. She has been a true god for little over a century. She became a Herald almost 900 years ago but she achieved godhood because her Boss got himself dead. She has been a true divinity for only 100 years...and her Herald was a hard ass from Ragathiel camp who didn't mince words. Perhaps these are the actions of a jumped-human struggling with the weight of true divinity.
To be fair, I'm not really surprised with the herald being CR 15 since it's really just a beefed-up messenger. I can't imagine that most messengers, even head messengers, would be higher levels than some of the backbone of her army, like planetars.
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She was probably down in the local god-bar bragging about the new minions she's got doing what she wants in the Worldwound, when she got an unfortunate prayer call about a missing Herald. After being laughed out of the bar by the other gods for the third time this sort of thing has happened to her ("Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me three times...") she retreated to her cathedral to sulk, smash things, generally throw a tantrum, and then decided that she was going to get her minions to get her Herald back. Or kill him and she'll have one of them instead.So you're saying the PCs shouldn't take on the duties of Iomedae's Herald at the end of this book then, right? :D
Then much like what happened to Arazni, the Hand is corrupted to the side of evil.So yeah Iomedae is bad luck on Heralds.
Exactly! I mean how do you misplace your Herald? I'd be like thanks but not thanks. Good luck on finding a new schmuck!
This explains so much, but now I just imagine her on a couch, in a corner of her cathedral. Sitting in her pyjamas, ice cream in one hand, a glass of wine on the other, she sits crying and watching the heroes fight her fallen herold.
This scenario either ends with her jumping of up and high fiving everyone in the cathedral… or Iomedae trying to bury her guilt and sadness until the PCs either kill or drive away Baphomet.Once that is done, and the PCs have returned, a drunk (with joy, wine, and ice cream) Iomedae (still in her pyjamas) hugs the PCs and wants to make them all herolds^^
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Surprisingly to me, this module is noticeably below WBL for a four player character party. Excluding artifacts (because you can't price them), each player would get something around 72k gold less than what normal WBL between levels 15-18 would be. Not that ir is a huge loss, since the WBL in modules 2-4 was so grossly oversized that the party still is 200k over WBL per character. ^^
I'll have to put some loot into the module, though, to keep my six player party on the up and up.
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This explains so much, but now I just imagine her on a couch, in a corner of her cathedral. Sitting in her pyjamas, ice cream in one hand, a glass of wine on the other, she sits crying and watching the heroes fight her fallen herold.
This scenario either ends with her jumping of up and high fiving everyone in the cathedral… or Iomedae trying to bury her guilt and sadness until the PCs either kill or drive away Baphomet.Once that is done, and the PCs have returned, a drunk (with joy, wine, and ice cream) Iomedae (still in her pyjamas) hugs the PCs and wants to make them all herolds^^
While this completely and totally takes away from her mystique and the potential awe inspiring moment of dealing with a god, I think I might use this. Complete with the song (good call Alleran!) It's just too funny not to...