I'm sure it's been asked many times before, and no doubt will be again, but I'd like some views on this:
Is it worth a Cleric dipping 1 level of Paladin, and if so what level would be best to do this?
For further information it's currently a 5th level Dwarf Cleric of Torag.
Not really, but an Oracle dipping Paladin to get Divine Grace is good synergy.
What would you want to get out of being a Paladin? If you can't answer that question then there is no reason to dip.
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If you're going to dip Paladin, dip 2 levels to get Divine Grace and Lay on Hands. As to when, the earlier the better imo, having such a big bump to your saves has more of an effect at lower levels, as does the swift action heal, later on it'll just be a drip in the ocean.
As to whether it's worth it... very hard to say without a full character build and info on what you want to do with it. Broadly speaking if you're going for a more martial cleric then probably, if you're going more caster then probably not. Also, you'll need a good Cha to make any use of the Paladin class features at all really, if your Cha bonus isn't at least +2 don't bother.
Of note, the trait magical Knack will be very useful as it keeps your Caster Level at full for Cleric with only a 2 level dip.
Claxon - Martial Weapons, All Armour Types, Smite Evil. Improvement on saves and HP for a level. Those are the basics. As a party we recently lost our fighter and I'm looking for ways my Cleric can help pick up the slack.
Claxon - Martial Weapons, All Armour Types, Smite Evil. Improvement on saves and HP for a level. Those are the basics. As a party we recently lost our fighter and I'm looking for ways my Cleric can help pick up the slack.
Assuming you even go with a 2 level dip of Paladin you will only get Smite Evil once per day, which will allow you to add you Cha mod to attack rolls and Paladin level to damage rolls. Against Outsiders, Undead, and Dragons the bonus damage doubles (on the first attack only). Smite attacks will bypass all damage reduciton. So with that two level dip you would get possibly 4 damage, likley only 2. What is your charisma modifier as a Cleric? You should have high wisdom, but not necessarily high Cha. Paladin's and Cleric have the same save progression so no help there. The Paladin does have better HD, weapon access, and armor than a cleric. If you go two levels for divine grace it could help your saves, but only if you have a substantial cha mod. You would also get lay on hands, but as a cleric you should already have healing under control.
So all you would really gain is a better HD, martial weapon proficiency, armor proficiency. IMO you're better doing a dip in fighter for all the same things, and a bonus feat. You only loose one level of caster progression as well, which is probably the most significant thing about a cleric.
I also agree with the other poster that if you Charisma modifier isn't at least a +2 you shouldn't bother at all with Paladin. I personally think 1 level of fighter is still better over all.
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Claxon - Martial Weapons, All Armour Types, Smite Evil. Improvement on saves and HP for a level. Those are the basics. As a party we recently lost our fighter and I'm looking for ways my Cleric can help pick up the slack.
No need to dip Paladin. Just use all those wonderful clerical buffs and you'll be a better fighter than the fighter could hope to be.
I go with 4 level dip if I was replacing the fighter in the group. The extra BAB would be helpful even though it's only 1 as well 2 smites is better than 1. More 1st level spells doesn't hurt either. I think in this situation I'd be going more melee cleric than caster and you can't do both at the same time so the delay in spells won't be that bad. Lay on hand and the extra channels will help in the healing area.
Interesting points.
Diamond B - I dare nto go the cheese route. So many options and types, plus it ruins your stealth when the enemy can smell you coming as well.
Claxon, I think you have a very good point there, and from a role play perspective the additional strictures of the Paladin code would make life difficult (we have some morally ambiguous characters in the group that I am slowly trying to reform). A level of fighter might well be a better choice.
Zhayne - It's true the buffs are very helpful, but I tend to cast them on other party members to improve overall effectiveness.
Also Charisma mod is +2. It needs to be high for all of the channel energy uses.
Are you using a shield? If yes, would Holy Vindicator be an option? It got some nice abilites, progesses your channeling, high BAB and doesn't hurt your spellcasting that much if you limit it to 4 levels. Even 10 levels would still grant you access to 9th level spells in the long run (of the campaign runs that high).
Blave - Holy Vindicator does look interesting. I'd be waiting a few levels before I can take it though.
Sir Thugsalot - It's a Dwarf Cleric with awful Dex. Ranged classes are not really a good choice for him.
Thank you all for your suggestions and advice so far.
It's hard to tell without seeing your build but a dwarf cleric of Torag should already be sturdy enough to hold his own in combat.You probably have decent Armor and HP and good saves (even more so if you have steel soul). Also, if you are level 5 right now, there's not a big difference between dipping or staying cleric for a few levels as you'll get +1 BAB for the next 3 levels anyway.
I'd say stay cleric til level 8 (to get the seconds domain powers) and then go Vindicator from level 9 onward. Even one level will give you a big +5 boost to your AC, heavy armor and all martial weapons. 4 levels will improve your BAB by 1 and empower all cure spells you cast on yourself. More levels will give you the awesome and versatile Stigma power as a move and later swift action. And an additional +1 BAB if you take at least 8 levels. You also get Channel Smite for free to mess up undead foes.
I think all those things are more important for a battle cleric* than a few caster levels. The lack of domain Power progression might hurt depending on oyur domains, though.
*By battle cleric I mean a characte who is primary melee. Going all the way with the PrC WILL hurt your spellcasting. But since you already considered dropping caster levels by dipping, I think the class will work out good enough for you. And it got more unique powers than a Paladin or fighter.
Thanks Blave.
You make a pretty convincing argument.
I'll see if it's still even a necessity by the time I hit 8th level. By then the rest of the party might have adapted to deal with the lack anyway.
I must admit that staying full Cleric is preferable just to avoid loosing caster levels. Plus more spells means more battlfield control options.
Thanks everybody who replied.
you really shouldn't be posting onto threads that are over 2 years old.