Paizo and WotC Gen Con 2014


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

One important factor is that 'what people will buy' is the most important commercial factor and 'what we like to use' is the most commonly discussed factor amongst gamers. Drawing conclusions about the former based on conversations about the latter is risky, in my opinion. Many paizonites have commented on the fact that they own way more adventure material than they'll ever need - yet they still subscribe to a monthly AP and/or a quarterly module.

Our group pretty much never plays pathfinder now, yet I'm subscribed to the RPG line, bought three copies of Ultimate Campaign and will get a bunch of extras when the upcoming Strategy guide is released. That's presumably atypical, but highlights the difficulty of drawing conclusions based on messageboard posts, casual chatter in FLGSes or 'what everyone round here thinks'.

Even the publishers dont really know how this stuff will play out. If any company begins to second guess how the market is going to behave there's every chance they'll get it wrong. Far better to focus on doing what you do well than trying to anticipate what people are going to want in a year's time. Pay attention, but beware of "reacting" to what you think is going to happen.


More or less Steve thats why I was making it clear IDK what is going to happen. D&DN is not a 3.x or an attempt to fix 3.x so that might doom it there. D&D tends to go in cycles and they are due for a big win lol. I think D&DN will either be a smash hit or tank badly. 3.x is popular no denying that and even I still like it just not at high level. I done the same thing with 3.5 bought more books and Dungeon magazines than what I need or could conceivably play.

Scarab Sages

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Paizo has an excellent model and judging from their string of successes that just keeps getting bigger, they have their finger on the pulse. They have developed some incredible products that have been needed in the d20 gaming world since 1E but never quite made it (Ultimate Campaign, Strategic guide, etc). If they stick to their plan, they don't need to directly compete with WotC and respond to every move they make. I am sure they keep tabs on what is happening over there in 5E land, but any tweaks based on that are more likely to affect their long term strategic plan, not day to day market competition decisions.

Also, right now at least, I think the fact that Paizo has no current plans for a PF 2.0 is actually a positive for most players. I know I am sick and tired of new editions, even though I understand it has been (at least up until now) the main answer to bloat.

Talking about 5E, the fact that they are doing many of the positive things that Paizo has done with extensive playtesting, responsiveness to their player/customer base, etc, is happy news for gamers everywhere. After all, WotC and PF are not REALLY competitors. Its not like you can only play one system or the other, unlike most products where if you have a blender or a car, you don't really need two.


Yeah I have about 90 characters that are about half and half 3.5 and pathfinder. I won't be playing 99% of them ever.

Out of 3.5, PF, and 4th, only PF has ever inspired me to buy books. It's the system I am invested in and I never want a PF2 to exist. Now I'm all for Ultimate Core Rulebook where they create archetypes for all the classes and alternate skills and feats, but I want PF to stay PF.

Scarab Sages

Marthkus wrote:

Yeah I have about 90 characters that are about half and half 3.5 and pathfinder. I won't be playing 99% of them ever.

Out of 3.5, PF, and 4th, only PF has ever inspired me to buy books. It's the system I am invested in and I never want a PF2 to exist. Now I'm all for Ultimate Core Rulebook where they create archetypes for all the classes and alternate skills and feats, but I want PF to stay PF.

I like the idea of an Ultimate Core Rulebook. I would much rather see a "fleshing out" book that fills in the gaps for all of the more recent classes with more archetypes, spells, options, etc rather than more classes, hybrid or no.


Deathdwarf wrote:
Five years ago my hope was that 4th Ed would fail...

Well...at least you own it.

I look forward to seeing 5E/Next.


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While I have some lingering loyalty and nostalgia to and for the Forgotten Realms, I do remember quite vividly that it was WotC who screwed up the setting against the vigorous and sustained protests of their own fans, whom saw the disaster coming well ahead. And that they did listen to the complaints of fans of the Eberron's setting, but not the Realms fans. So WotC really has lost any company loyalty it once had from me.

I will stay with the company which has treated me right over the last five years as a costumer and fan.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Tacticslion wrote:

This is, to me, about the worst way to do psychic magic possible. I'm sorry, Mr. James Jacobs, I know you generally really prefer it, and I absolutely love about half of what you do and push through despite the critics, and I loath the other half. I still think you're an awesome guy, though!

I know they aren't going to do power points. Mr. Jacobs has made that clear to me - personally even! - several times on these boards. But I'd vastly - vastly - prefer something other than yet another Vancian variant. And from most everything I hear from fellow psionic, psychic, etc. fans, I'm not alone.

If you're interested in something other than either power points or vancian style, you might want to check out Green Ronin's skill-based take on psychic powers from the back in the Third Edition days. I found that an interesting variation back then. The book is called "Psychic's Handbook" and has recently been made available again. It should not be too difficult to adapt to Pathfinder.

Liberty's Edge

Zaister, is it similar to the Star Wars RCR force powers? I was a big fan of that system.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Coridan wrote:
Zaister, is it similar to the Star Wars RCR force powers? I was a big fan of that system.

I can't say, I'm not familiar with those powers, I'm afraid. What does RCR stand for?

Liberty's Edge

Revised Core Rulebook, basically force powers were skills like Force Push and Force Lightning, when you used it you rolled it like any other skill check and how high you rolled was how powerful the effect was.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yes, I think Green Ronin's psychic Powers worked in a similar Way.


Coridan wrote:
Revised Core Rulebook, basically force powers were skills like Force Push and Force Lightning, when you used it you rolled it like any other skill check and how high you rolled was how powerful the effect was.

But didn't you also have to spend HP to use the Force? That was a huge turn off for me. I was a fan of SW RCR, but the Force rules killed any interest in playing a Force user.

I've been using Saga Edition rules since 2007 and never looked back.


Pan wrote:

How is it going Zard? You really think forgettable realms is way better than Golarion huh?

I played in one short game set in FR, and think it's way, way better than Golarion(which I've played games in for the past 4 years).

It's subjective. Don't get bent out of shape over it.

Liberty's Edge

Josh M. wrote:
Coridan wrote:
Revised Core Rulebook, basically force powers were skills like Force Push and Force Lightning, when you used it you rolled it like any other skill check and how high you rolled was how powerful the effect was.

But didn't you also have to spend HP to use the Force? That was a huge turn off for me. I was a fan of SW RCR, but the Force rules killed any interest in playing a Force user.

I've been using Saga Edition rules since 2007 and never looked back.

Vitality points yeah. Cost was very small though. I preferred it to Saga's once per encounter proto4e system.


Coridan wrote:
Josh M. wrote:
Coridan wrote:
Revised Core Rulebook, basically force powers were skills like Force Push and Force Lightning, when you used it you rolled it like any other skill check and how high you rolled was how powerful the effect was.

But didn't you also have to spend HP to use the Force? That was a huge turn off for me. I was a fan of SW RCR, but the Force rules killed any interest in playing a Force user.

I've been using Saga Edition rules since 2007 and never looked back.

Vitality points yeah. Cost was very small though. I preferred it to Saga's once per encounter proto4e system.

But even then, there are multiple ways of getting your Force powers back, and/or using the same power multiple times. Once per encounter is the bare minimum use with no outside effort. You can take the same power multiple times for more uses, spend Force points, and if you roll a 20, you get them back automatically. And really, how often are you using the same power in a given encounter, usually?

In our current game, our resident Force-guy will fling one baddie, Force-choke another, and maybe if he hasn't lightsabered the rest to death, he'll Force push. Even then, those are just the actual "powers," you can Use The Force as a skill for other things as often as you want(Block/Deflect blaster bolts, sense feelings, etc).

Saga Edition doesn't hold a candle to the technical mechanical crunch Revised rules had, but I've found our games run much smoother and more cinematically in Saga. But, YMMV.

I really just can't wrap my head around spending health to Move Object or Sense. That just seemed silly; you never see any Jedi or Sith feel pain or lose health when they use their powers in the movies. Yoda wasn't grunting or keeling over when he moved the X-Wing on Daggobah.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think they used vitality more like stamina, not actual health, for this.


Zaister wrote:
I think they used vitality more like stamina, not actual health, for this.

It's been a long while since I played it, maybe 2004 or so. I have the books, just haven't cracked any open since Saga came out. I do miss the tech manuals and such; Revised was a lot more techy, and I tend to play Tech Specialists and Gearheads the most often(Jedi are kind of played out, to me).

Anywho, sorry for the lengthy derail. RCR has it's merits, not trying to dog it or anything.


Zaister wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:

This is, to me, about the worst way to do psychic magic possible. I'm sorry, Mr. James Jacobs, I know you generally really prefer it, and I absolutely love about half of what you do and push through despite the critics, and I loath the other half. I still think you're an awesome guy, though!

I know they aren't going to do power points. Mr. Jacobs has made that clear to me - personally even! - several times on these boards. But I'd vastly - vastly - prefer something other than yet another Vancian variant. And from most everything I hear from fellow psionic, psychic, etc. fans, I'm not alone.

If you're interested in something other than either power points or vancian style, you might want to check out Green Ronin's skill-based take on psychic powers from the back in the Third Edition days. I found that an interesting variation back then. The book is called "Psychic's Handbook" and has recently been made available again. It should not be too difficult to adapt to Pathfinder.

Actually, I know the base system quite well. It was also published in the back of the Advance Player's Manual (I think that's the title) and I even use a heavily revised variant of it for deities in a home-brew setting I've been tooling around with.

a brief aside about Star Wars d20:
Josh M. wrote:
Coridan wrote:
Revised Core Rulebook, basically force powers were skills like Force Push and Force Lightning, when you used it you rolled it like any other skill check and how high you rolled was how powerful the effect was.

But didn't you also have to spend HP to use the Force? That was a huge turn off for me. I was a fan of SW RCR, but the Force rules killed any interest in playing a Force user.

I've been using Saga Edition rules since 2007 and never looked back.

Yes, it ran of hp. As others have noted, however, it was called vitality, which...

Zaister wrote:
I think they used vitality more like stamina, not actual health, for this.

Eh... kind of. Vitality was a combination of stamina and luck - once you ran out of those (or if you took a critical hit) you took wound point damage which determined how badly you were actually hurt. Really, they should have stuck with calling vitality "hit points" because, you know, it's a better term for it.

In any event, the psychic power dealt subdual damage (nonlethal damage, for those not familiar with older 3E terminology) which they called "strain" for some reason and went to lengths to differentiate (it was totally nonlethal damage, though).

And... to get back to the original point: Zaister, I don't use that system because I don't like that system. I mean, I'll use a variant of it for specific things, yes, but in the end, I just don't like how it impacts the flow of the world, especially something like PF.

It works in my Star Wars games, but not for most of my gaming purposes, I'm not a huge fan.

I love - love - the power point system, as applied in 3.5 (as opposed to 3.0). It's by far the most elegant, well-balanced* system in 3rd edition, scaling well, and giving a rather consistent "relative power" throughout all the way from first to twentieth levels*.

* about psionics and balance:
Look, I know all about the complaints and allow me to address most of them as follows:
1) yes, it's more powerful than martials. SO IS EVERYTHING ELSE. However, Psionics is consistent and well-balanced within itself (unlike either martials or casters) across all levels of play, and it's "middle of the road" power - in between the two extremes that martials and casters represent.
2) no, it's not as powerful as casters. Yes, I probably know. I probably know that, too. No, it probably doesn't work that way. Nova-ing is less efficient for psionics than spellcasters in general, and unless you're straddled with bad players or those psionics players who find abuse loopholes, which there are some (as with everything), and magic players who don't, spellcasters come out on top almost every time. Also, remember the manifester cap (which also applies to metapsionic feats). That will likely make most of your problems disappear.
3) 3E psionics and 3.5 psionics are two very, very different animals. The former was all about rock/paper/sicsors v. ability score damage randomness or stun, while the latter was all about versatility within limits by expending more personal power (within limits). Please do not confuse the two. The former was terrible. The latter was awesome, even if Complete Psionics mostly consistend of missed opportunities and a hefty lack of understanding of the appeal of psionics power point-based systems in the first place.

IF THESE DO NOT COVER YOUR CONCERNS, FEEL FREE TO NECRO AN OLD THREAD (there are plenty) OR START A NEW ONE DISCUSSING THIS TOPIC. KTHNX! :)

The point of my earlier post was this: James has said, on no few occasions, that he doesn't like the power point system (which is too bad for him). His reasons, which are entirely reasonable and understandable, if - in my opinion - flawed, pretty much rule out anything like Green Ronin's system as well, from what I can tell.

Thus my suggestion has been for some time that when psychic/psionic magic comes out, it uses a system that's already established, that's appropriate to the history and elements of the locale on which such things are based, and that also comes from psychic phenomena: ki. The Qinggong monk archetype has opened the way for such things, and thus I'd really like that to be the direction that psychic stuff goes.

This neatly sidesteps the possibility of shutting down third party material (Dreamscarred Press) which Paizo - in most cases - loves and supports*, and also allows something other than yet another Vancian retread.

* By this, I mean they openly encourage 3rd party materials in their game


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magnuskn wrote:
I will stay with the company which has treated me right over the last five years as a costumer and fan.

I was wondering where people got the supplies for all that Gen Con cosplay.


bugleyman wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
I will stay with the company which has treated me right over the last five years as a costumer and fan.
I was wondering where people got the supplies for all that Gen Con cosplay.

Yeah, yeah, English second language, etc, etc. ^^


magnuskn wrote:
Yeah, yeah, English second language, etc, etc. ^^

Hey, you have my respect. I'm not even bi-lingual. I'm just a smart-ass. ;)

More seriously -- I wasn't thrilled with many of Wotc's choices in the 4E era (the GSL, leaving LFR to die on the vine, pulling PDFs, etc.), but D&D will always be important to me, and I would like to see it be healthy and successful.


bugleyman wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Yeah, yeah, English second language, etc, etc. ^^

Hey, you have my respect. I'm not even bi-lingual. I'm just a smart-ass. ;)

More seriously -- I wasn't thrilled with many of Wotc's choices in the 4E era (the GSL, leaving LFR to die on the vine, pulling PDFs, etc.), but D&D will always be important to me, and I would like to see it be healthy and successful.

Pathfinder is D&D, only under another name and without a giant corporate overlord trying to squeeze every red cent out of the franchise. I'll support this over HasbrotC any day, every day.


magnuskn wrote:
Pathfinder is D&D, only under another name and without a giant corporate overlord trying to squeeze every red cent out of the franchise. I'll support this over HasbrotC any day, every day.

Yeah, not gonna re-hash the debate over what "is" or "isn't" D&D. Suffice to say I understand and respect your opinion, but I would personally like both Pathfinder and D&D to be successful.


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bugleyman wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Pathfinder is D&D, only under another name and without a giant corporate overlord trying to squeeze every red cent out of the franchise. I'll support this over HasbrotC any day, every day.
Yeah, not gonna re-hash the debate over what "is" or "isn't" D&D. Suffice to say I understand and respect your opinion, but I would personally like both Pathfinder and D&D to be successful.

Well, I'll be open about it and say that I am indifferent about the fate of D&D by now, although I wish that they don't take away customers from Paizo. But I don't wish them active harm or something like that.


Scott Betts wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
Pemberfoot wrote:
Wotc has positioned themselves as a no-show at Gencon 2013 this year.
Er...

Its like a reverse mating call... Say something negative about WOTC and Scott will show up.

If I ever get lost in the outback I am going to say the most horrible nasty things about WOTC wait for Scott to show up to tell me I am wrong (apologize to him for the WOTC stuff) and hope that he knows the way to civilization...

;-)

i would like to know who "wins" the battle to eat the other when you're both lost and run out of food LOL any bets?
In Australia? The wildlife.

I don't trust koalas.


Platypus is the single coolest animal EVER!!!!!!!

Scarab Sages

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Zardnaar wrote:

FR was better than Golarion before they wrecked it and I bet it has a higher profile in the non D&D world due to game like Baldurs Gate and novels. Golarion seems heavily influenced by Mystara and Greyhawk to a lesser extent.

This is YOUR opinion, not reality. I'm not sure how old you are ( You old be 13, or an older gamer like myself : I'm 44), but you seem bizarrely obsessed with how FR was the greatest setting ever. Many of us disagree.

It was massively bloated with "canon' martial that just kept testing piled on, each layer further restricting a DMs ability to be creative/improvise. Not everyone prefers tat very single village be detailed and statted-out.

You also seem oblivious to the fact that many of s loved Greyhawk.

Golarion has a similar feel of possibilities, as far as placing your own adventures and stories, without some player saying "Actually, that's where he Wizard's Enclave of Blah-Blah has their secret testing Dungeon ( As presented in FR book 16).'

Feel free to love FR, but OT all of us d/do. Keep that in mind when calling other setting inferior.

-Uriel


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For Ferelden!

(Sorry. Couldn't resist. Besides, Chris Pramas and Green Ronin's adaptation of the computer game into an RPG was well done.)


Uriel393 wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:

FR was better than Golarion before they wrecked it and I bet it has a higher profile in the non D&D world due to game like Baldurs Gate and novels. Golarion seems heavily influenced by Mystara and Greyhawk to a lesser extent.

This is YOUR opinion, not reality. I'm not sure how old you are ( You old be 13, or an older gamer like myself : I'm 44), but you seem bizarrely obsessed with how FR was the greatest setting ever. Many of us disagree.

It was massively bloated with "canon' martial that just kept testing piled on, each layer further restricting a DMs ability to be creative/improvise. Not everyone prefers tat very single village be detailed and statted-out.

You also seem oblivious to the fact that many of s loved Greyhawk.

Golarion has a similar feel of possibilities, as far as placing your own adventures and stories, without some player saying "Actually, that's where he Wizard's Enclave of Blah-Blah has their secret testing Dungeon ( As presented in FR book 16).'

Feel free to love FR, but OT all of us d/do. Keep that in mind when calling other setting inferior.

-Uriel

I prefer Darjsun myself but one would have to be delusional to claim any other D&D setting ijncluding Golarion is more popular than FR. Games like Baldurs Gate and the novel lines would probably prove that. It seems WoTC is going to come out swinging with FFR and Dragonlance leading the charge as those game worlds had the giggest novel lines associated with them.

The is no GOlarion equivilent of Drizzt, Baldurs Gate, Eye of the Beholder or Dragons of Summer Flame type book AFAIK. I could be wrong but if a Golarion novel has made the New York Times best seller list let me know.

Thats what I was meaning in terms of popularity. I like most of the TSR settings (except for Ravvenloft) and Golarion and Darksun is probably my favoutie but you have tThe Prism Pentad vs Drizzt in terms of mass market appeal and that is a no contest. I'm not a massive Drizzt fan either but it is what it is. The 1st FR set sold something like 175 000 copies, Keep on the Borderlands sold over a million copies.

It is that kind of mass marketing I am referring to not if you like them or not as plenty of Paizo adventures are betetr than KotBL. Its like 3.x seems more popular than 4E and these days proably more popular than AD&D. I would rather have Paizo pick up the TSR trademarks being honest and make a PF 2 in 3-4 years time would be my ideal RPG but I don't think that is going to happen.

TSR mismanaged the brand and it recovered, I wouldn't count D&D dead yet but would not be surprised due to WoTC stupidity.

Shadow Lodge

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I'd wager that before Golarion existed, the generally preferred setting for the Paizo gang was Greyhawk. Based solely on the fact that they set all three pre-Golarion APs in that setting.


Greyhawk was the semi default setting for 3rd ed hence Pelor, Hextor etc in the PHB. After WoTC bought TSR there was a late 90's push/revival of Greyhawk product one suspect to sell 3.0 as a return to the games roots.

FR displaced Greyhawk and Mystara in the late 80's. Both were reprinted in 93/94 or so but never really caught on. Golarion seems influenced by Greyhawk/Mystara as both Golarion and Mystara have cultures heaviuly based on RL ones on a pathcwork world.

Paizo knew what they were doing with Golarion. Even expanmded it the same way as old TSR Greyhawk. Here is a little bit with Varissia and expand it later. I bought the Inner Sea World Guide as I like Golarion better than FR after WoTC wrecked the world.

My own Pantheon is mostly a mish mash of the Paizo one, the classic D&D demon/devil lords like Grazzt, Vecna etc and I used a couple from the 4th ed pantheon as well as I like Zehir so I stole him as well. I use Yuan Ti over Serpent Folk and tweaked the Red Mantis.


I prefer Golarion but Zardnaar is probably right...Forgotten Realms has for more visibility.

I am not sure if any Pathfinder novel has gotten on the Best Seller list, but given the output of TSR/WOTC versus Paizo, it might be a matter of time. I know James Sutter's Death's Heretic did quite well for itself.


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Zardnaar wrote:

Paizo is a great company and their product rocks in terms of production value. Sure there are some fanatic Paizoites but lets say for example.

1 3rd like Pathfinder because they lkike Paizo, Lisa Etc
1/3rd like Pathfinder because they like 3.x/adventure paths
1/3rd like PF because it is not 4th ed.

Losing one third of your revenue could elikminate all of your profit. Now 1/3rd may only be 1-% or whatever.

Yeah, I don't recommend basing any of your points around this example since that's not how business works. . . like, at all.

Zardnaar wrote:
I don't expect Paizo to cater to me perosnal needs and it would be stupid of them to do so. But if WoTC actually makes a half decent version of D&D Paizo could be in trouble. D&DN could also be good but still tank because of marketing, inertia with PF/PFS IDK. Paizo did kind of get lucky with a free run due to how bad 4E was IMHO.

Except, Paizo was a successfully operating independent "subscription-based Adventure magazine and peripherals" company for an entire year (RotRL, CotCT, SD, plus their Modules, Chronicles line and Gamemastery sets) before 4th Edition ever released. Did they get a boost to sales after 4th Edition disappointed some people? Most likely. Is the majority of their success, or even a significant portion of it, due to a "free run" from 4th Edition? Absolutely not. There's tons of room in this market for more than one niche.

Zardnaar wrote:
The other thing is I have close to 90 odd 3.x books now I do not really need anymore hence why UC is probably my last PF purchase outside APs.

Aaaaannd, right here, is where you recognize the primary competitive advantage of Paizo in the industry. It's not rules. It's story. D&D Next is not the primary product substitution for Pathfinder; that position goes to the D&D Settings. Also, people need to start moving away from the idea that Pathfinder and D&D are perfect substitutes (and thus perfect competitors) for one another. I don't know if any research has ever been done to map indifference curves for the gamer demographic but I'm willing to bet that the industry has pretty low elasticity. Yet, time and time again, gamers keep treating this industry like a high-elasticity zero-sum game.

Zardnaar wrote:

I prefer Darjsun myself but one would have to be delusional to claim any other D&D setting ijncluding Golarion is more popular than FR. Games like Baldurs Gate and the novel lines would probably prove that. It seems WoTC is going to come out swinging with FFR and Dragonlance leading the charge as those game worlds had the giggest novel lines associated with them.

The is no GOlarion equivilent of Drizzt, Baldurs Gate, Eye of the Beholder or Dragons of Summer Flame type book AFAIK. I could be wrong but if a Golarion novel has made the New York Times best seller list let me know.

One would also have to be delusional to compare and benchmark the achievements of a product line (Forgotten Realms) that's been operating for 26 years to a product line (Golarion/Pathfinder) that's only been in operation for 6.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big fan of FR (I've been collecting Realms products since 1989), I literally grew up reading Forgotten Realms since before I was 10. Same with Dragonlance. But Golarion is excellent in it's own right and it's not a competition who has the "best" setting. Pathfinder also has plenty of time (two more decades in fact) to catch up to Forgotten Realms' notoriety in its own right.

Granted, some things (like Drizzt, Pool of Radiance, and Eye of the Beholder) were big hits right out of the gate, but even back then, at the beginning of their success I don't think they were making any "top 20 adventures/novels of the century" lists until much later when they could be judged in retrospect. Still, even just that early success can be attributed to something else which your next point brings me to:

Zardnaar wrote:

Thats what I was meaning in terms of popularity. I like most of the TSR settings (except for Ravvenloft) and Golarion and Darksun is probably my favoutie but you have tThe Prism Pentad vs Drizzt in terms of mass market appeal and that is a no contest. I'm not a massive Drizzt fan either but it is what it is. The 1st FR set sold something like 175 000 copies, Keep on the Borderlands sold over a million copies.

It is that kind of mass marketing I am referring to not if you like them or not as plenty of Paizo adventures are betetr than KotBL. Its like 3.x seems more popular than 4E and these days proably more popular than AD&D. I would rather have Paizo pick up the TSR trademarks being honest and make a PF 2 in 3-4 years time would be my ideal RPG but I don't think that is going to happen.

Here's the major mistaken thrust of your point - you're confusing popularity with marketing. You even interchange the two concepts between the last two paragraphs. You can't just take popularity or success and measure it in a vacuum. Similarly, you shouldn't attribute the same popularity standards to two entirely different marketing pools. What you actually should compare is the the success/popularity of each setting relative to the amount of resources spent on marketing it to consumers. If you do that, I think you'd find that the gap between the marketable popularity of Golarion versus the marketable popularity of Forgotten Realms isn't even close to as wide as you think it is.

If Paizo shoveled even half as much effort into mass marketing a Golarion version of "Drizzt" or "Pool of Radiance" as TSR did back in the day (or like the titan that is Hasbro does now) I would imagine it could be just as popular.


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also it seem to me a certain PF Tales author named Dave something that has a pretty good string of books that are becoming more popular by the day give count Jeggare and radovan a few years they might be up there with Drizzt and co. i appreciate that Paizo is taking a more long term look at things and NOT trying to out do a different companies previous accomplishments (which to be honest aren't as popular as they once were) keep at it guys!


I should probably be clear. WoTC seems to making a genuine effort that is about as well as could be expected considering the circumstances. Being WoTC I bet they will screw it up but if they have the D&D name, ad if they have things like FR and Krynn and if they somehow make some good adventures as well Paizo may be in trouble as you are really both targeting a similar market IMHO.

Right now I wouldn't panic as that would be stupid but the last play test packet was not terrible and some of the D&DN ideas and classes are kind of better than the PF ones.

People like painting WoTC as the big bad boy as well but Paizo has had them beaten since 2010 so there is that. Gamers tend to be fickle and most gamers tend to be casuals.


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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm thankful, by the way, that there is no "Golarion equivalent of Drizzt".


Zaister wrote:
I'm thankful, by the way, that there is no "Golarion equivalent of Drizzt".

Well, I am however a bit disappointed that there is no Elminster. Not because of the constant meddling, but because I liked the old coots personality.

Totally agreed that a Drizzt isn't necessary. We got enough emo protagonists in other literature to last us centuries.


Not a massive Drizzt fan myself but the little emo is popular and iconic with wide spread recognition.

Sovereign Court

Will D&DNext be OGL?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Narguns leave little evidence except maybe a stain.....

Talk about your obscure quote...

Are the stars there as well?

Reggie.


GeraintElberion wrote:
Will D&DNext be OGL?

They have not said.


DaveMage wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:
Will D&DNext be OGL?
They have not said.

Strange as it sounds, I really hope so for their sake. It will go a long way toward regaining good will.

That said, based on how they're handling their playtest with all the forced silence and so on, I suspect not. But that's purely a guess - I've absolutely no inside information at all.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
magnuskn wrote:
Zaister wrote:
I'm thankful, by the way, that there is no "Golarion equivalent of Drizzt".

Well, I am however a bit disappointed that there is no Elminster. Not because of the constant meddling, but because I liked the old coots personality.

Totally agreed that a Drizzt isn't necessary. We got enough emo protagonists in other literature to last us centuries.

...Old Mage Jatembe...


Cori Marie wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Zaister wrote:
I'm thankful, by the way, that there is no "Golarion equivalent of Drizzt".

Well, I am however a bit disappointed that there is no Elminster. Not because of the constant meddling, but because I liked the old coots personality.

Totally agreed that a Drizzt isn't necessary. We got enough emo protagonists in other literature to last us centuries.

...Old Mage Jatembe...

Well, he is an old powerful mage, for sure. But unless I missed something we don't have novels about him, where we can learn about his personality. ^^


The Block Knight wrote:

.....

I don't know if any research has ever been done to map indifference curves for the gamer demographic but I'm willing to bet that the industry has pretty low elasticity. Yet, time and time again, gamers keep treating this industry like a high-elasticity zero-sum game.
.....

Off topic. Can you provide a link with some basic information on what "elasticity" in this sense is about? I've looked but could not find one that is taken down to my retired engineer/programmer level of understanding.

thanks,

-- david

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

This might help regarding Elasticity.


James Martin wrote:
This might help regarding Elasticity.

Thank you. -- david


magnuskn wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Zaister wrote:
I'm thankful, by the way, that there is no "Golarion equivalent of Drizzt".

Well, I am however a bit disappointed that there is no Elminster. Not because of the constant meddling, but because I liked the old coots personality.

Totally agreed that a Drizzt isn't necessary. We got enough emo protagonists in other literature to last us centuries.

...Old Mage Jatembe...
Well, he is an old powerful mage, for sure. But unless I missed something we don't have novels about him, where we can learn about his personality. ^^

.....yet........ also up until recently i didnt know he was still alive:) i get your point, but not all writers are as prolific as Ed Greenwood or R.A. Salvatore:)

Sovereign Court

Tacticslion wrote:
DaveMage wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:
Will D&DNext be OGL?
They have not said.

Strange as it sounds, I really hope so for their sake. It will go a long way toward regaining good will.

That said, based on how they're handling their playtest with all the forced silence and so on, I suspect not. But that's purely a guess - I've absolutely no inside information at all.

This makes sense to me. Being that the play-test was really a concept test I think they are keeping the cards close to their chest. The number munchers and charop-ers are going crazy about not being able to test the math. I am pretty sure WOTC are afraid to death of giving the game away. I dont expect to ever see an OGL from them again.

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