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"Vital Strike (Mythic): Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, multiply the Strength bonus, magic bonus, and other bonuses that would normally be multiplied on a critical hit by the number of weapon damage dice you roll for that feat.
Extra damage from sources that wouldn’t normally be multiplied on a critical hit isn’t multiplied by this feat."
"Vital Strike: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total."
The mythic version says that you multiply strength, etc, by the number of weapon damage dice you roll for Vital Strike. If I use a greatsword with a weapon damage of 2d6, that means I roll 4d6 weapon damage for the base vital strike. Which would mean because I rolled 4 weapon damage dice, I multiply the strength, etc, bonuses by 4 for mythic vital strike.
Considering the playtest version only mentions the first version of vital strike and not the improved or greater version, it said to multiply by 2. Which leads me to believe that the developers intended the offical mythic vital strike to multiply by 2, 3 for improved, 4 for greater. But with a greatsword, following the rules, it becomes 4 and 6 and 8. Is this working the way the developers intended or were multiple dice damage weapons not considered when writing the text of the feat?
Considering how easy it is for Druids to get something like 12d6 damage, I think it's safe to assume they meant "by the number of times you get to roll all your weapon damage dice for that feat".
So RAI it's 2, 3, 4.
But yes, RAW it would kinda let you add the strength bonus an obscene number of times.
Not really(in my interpretation).
The term "weapon damage dice" is used in both feats. For the greatsword's 2d6 you count each die(weapon damage dice=1d6) to argue the 4, 6, 8 multiplication in mythic version.
But for regular vital strike, you choose to count "weapon damage dice" as "2d6" otherwise rolling twice would do normal damage: 2d6 = 1d6 rolled twice.
This inconsistency in what "weapon damage dice" is, means it not really RAW to multiply by number of dice you roll, but rather the number of times you roll "weapon damage dice".
Because otherwise vital strike(and improved and greater) with a greatsword would be 2d6, 3d6, 4d6. And then there would still be no 4, 6, 8 multiplication.
RAI: nope
RAW: nope
That argumentation doesn't make much sense.
Vital Strike directly calls out: "Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice (three times etc.)". As in "the damage dice of the weapon", possibly plural. There is nothing questionable about this at all.
The Mythic Vital Strike on the other hand says "multiply (..) by the number of weapon damage dice you roll". "the number of weapon damage dice you roll" is not the same as "the damage dice of the weapon" and there is no inconsistency here no matter how you read the Mythic Ability.
(This is NOT supposed to say I believe it should be read any other way than "2, 3, 4", just that your argumentation to the 'why' does not hold.)
Not really(in my interpretation).
This inconsistency in what "weapon damage dice" is, means it not really RAW to multiply by number of dice you roll, but rather the number of times you roll "weapon damage dice".
Because otherwise vital strike(and improved and greater) with a greatsword would be 2d6, 3d6, 4d6. And then there would still be no 4, 6, 8 multiplication.RAI: nope
RAW: nope
Vital Strike: "Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice"
Mythic VS: "multiply the... bonuses that would normally be multiplied on a critical hit by the number of weapon damage dice you roll"To me, those say two separate things logically.
The first says to roll weapon damage dice twice. So if I have a longsword, 1d8 becomes 2d8. If I have a greatsword, 2d6 becomes 4d6. You rolled it twice.
The second says to multiply by number of dice you roll, not the number of times you roll dice. If I have a longsword, I rolled dice twice and roll 2 dice. If I have a greatsword, I rolled dice twice but I rolled 4 dice.
I think you might be on to something, though. "Weapon damage dice" could mean the 2d6, not the actual number of dice rolled. Which is horribly confusing and not intuitive. It might instead read: "multiply the... bonuses that would normally be multiplied on a critical hit by the number of times you roll weapon damage dice". That would work as the playtest feat works while also including IVS and GVS in a similar manner while negating all confusion as to what "weapon damage dice" exactly means.
So in this case where "weapon damage dice" is the 2d6 taken as a whole, with VS, you roll 2d6 twice and so for MVS the "multiply (..) by the number of weapon damage dice you roll" is a multiplier of 2 because the number of "weapon damage dice" was 2. Again, not at all intuitive and could have been made far more clear with different wording, but this seems to make sense from a rules standpoint as well as what I believe the intent of the feat is.
This book is so full of weird wording. I love the book for sure, but it's taking a little longer to piece through it with certain typos that seem to exist as well as (as in this case) ambiguous wording.
EDIT: Disclaimer: When I reread this post, it seems a little more hostile than it is intended. But trust me, I'm a nice guy.
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I disagree, it's not "by the number of dice" but "by the number of weapon damage dice.
They both use the term "weapon damage dice".
I see the "weapon damage dice" as one entity, and that is what I argue it is. So for a medium greatsword I read it as "...by the number of (2d6) you roll."
And I think it is very intuitive, I think it's a stretch to argue that a large longsword wielded in two hands gets a higher multiplier of your strength than a medium longsword wielded in two hands. But not a scimitar.
The difference is just that one says "weapon damage dice", the other "weapon's damage dice", as in "the damage dice of the weapon".
If looking from a grammatically point of view, the little "'s" should change it from the defined entity "weapon damage dice" to something else.
At least if I'm not misunderstanding some basic part about the American use of the English language.^^
I agree with the duck
The difference is just that one says "weapon damage dice", the other "weapon's damage dice", as in "the damage dice of the weapon".
If looking from a grammatically point of view, the little "'s" should change it from the defined entity "weapon damage dice" to something else.
At least if I'm not misunderstanding some basic part about the American use of the English language.^^
It seems a little like differentiating between "greatsword damage dice" and "greatsword's damage dice". To me they mean the same. But english isn't my first language :)
But I actually like reading 5 page legally binding contracts... ;)
That's why I pretty much always differentiate between "this is cleary the RAI and how I would always play it" and a very nitpicky (and surely not always correct) "RAW" reading.
I see the point the OP is making; the defined term of a weapon's damage dice is the number (and type) of dice that is rolled. If you multiply critical statics equal to the number of weapon damage dice you roll (and not by the set of weapon damage dice you roll, which is what the RAW should say for clear intent), there is a major difference. Ever heard of math?
By RAW: 2D6 -> GVS -> 8D6. Since the number of weapon damage dice being rolled here is 8, the critical static damage added would be multiplied by 8. With that said, having a +10 Strength now makes me add 80 damage. That's not counting other static bonuses such as Weapon Specialization or Enhancement Bonuses or what have you.
Now do you see the point he is making?
But I will say the rest is right in terms of intent, since doing the above math would make Vital Strike a gamebreaker for the monsters that have it (I mean come on; 8D6+80+X is going to drop somebody, and that's without increased critical benefits.)
By RAI: 2D6 -> GVS -> 8D6. Since the number of weapon damage dice sets being rolled here is 4, the critical static damage added would be multiplied by 4.
You did miss "Amazing Initiative". Spend 1 Mythic Point, take a second standard action.
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Yeah the feat is written badly, but I think the intention is pretty clear. Otherwise the feat would be insane for huge or larger creatures.
I mean, as it stands, if you had (Mythic) Greater Vital Strike, you'd multiply your STR mod dmg by 4, Power Attack by 4.. and any other modifiers that would normally be multiplied on a critical hit, right?
I made a separate regarding this, but no one has commented. -.-
Correct.
Why bother with iterative attacks when you can auto-hit for full damage on your first attack.
Here's a question:
If the Mythic Vital Strike multiplies modifiers that are again multiplied on a given Critical Hit, does this increased multiplication from a Critical Hit add on to the multiplication already applied to a Vital Strike?
For example: 2D6 + 6 Strength damage combined with Mythic Vital Strike is standardly 4D6 + 12 with a Greatsword. Let's say that roll becomes a critical hit. Do you multiply the damage again (making it 6D6 + 24), or not (Making the damage instead be 6D6 + 12)?
Don't forget to pick up mythic improved critical and mythic arcane strike.lol, there's a Barb rage power that raises your modifier by an additional 1 as well.. its just three powers deep. Imagine that - a weapon with a x5 modifier. >.<
You take a Fighter with a Scythe, who gets Weapon Mastery plus that, and you have 19-20/x6.
Things are going to die...
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Don't forget to pick up mythic improved critical and mythic arcane strike.lol, there's a Barb rage power that raises your modifier by an additional 1 as well.. its just three powers deep. Imagine that - a weapon with a x5 modifier. >.<You take a Fighter with a Scythe, who gets Weapon Mastery plus that, and you have 19-20/x6.
Things are going to die...
Nodachi
15-20/x4
Don't forget to pick up mythic improved critical and mythic arcane strike.lol, there's a Barb rage power that raises your modifier by an additional 1 as well.. its just three powers deep. Imagine that - a weapon with a x5 modifier. >.<You take a Fighter with a Scythe, who gets Weapon Mastery plus that, and you have 19-20/x6.
Things are going to die...
The funny part about all of this, was when I was designing my character several of my friends, all veterans, were telling me Vital Strike wasn't all that great.
Each of my hits will be doing over 200 dmg now. Non-crits.
The sad thing is that the fix that the Mythic feats are giving to Vital Strike is what it really needed as a mechanical fix. Now it's going to be outrageous in comparison to multiple attacks.
The way I see it at this point, Mythic gameplay is going to be all about Vital Strike, Standard gameplay is going to be all about iteratives. It's a shame that they make such ridiculous subjects about it.
The funny part about all of this, was when I was designing my character several of my friends, all veterans, were telling me Vital Strike wasn't all that great.
Each of my hits will be doing over 200 dmg now. Non-crits.
Without Mythic Vital Strike they're absolutely right. Regular vital strike only multiplied weapon damage dice. Weapon damage dice are the least part of damage that you have once you get a few levels in. Power attack and strength modifier do most of the work. It was a poor replacement for not being able to make a full-round attack. Mythic vital strike will allow you to multiply your strength damage and other modifiers, that makes it insanely good because you will reliably churn out 200+ damage from a single hit. Of course this is brand new as the final mythic rules were just released, and its not surpising that veterans are unaware of such a drastic improvement since most people haven't seen the new rule set yet.
The way I see it at this point, Mythic gameplay is going to be all about Vital Strike, Standard gameplay is going to be all about iteratives. It's a shame that they make such ridiculous subjects about it.
WIth Precision and Fleet Warrior and a high crit range and multiplier the full attack is probably still better on damage (assuming you don't spend the point to get a second standard action that round).
Regular Vital Strike gives you things like this. Mythic Vital Strike? Sign me up!
True, but many GMs might disinclined to allow such a combination. Though it is legal, I personally still wouldn't allow it. And really, it's only because you happen to have a very specific build with a very odd wild-shape that gives you a weapon that deals an incredibly amount of weapon damage. You're build isn't really a melee character build (to me) which are the people who primarily employ vital strike and it's subseqent abilities.
All that said, sign my barbarian up for mythic vital strike. His attack that does +60 static damage is just waiting to be mutliplied 4 or more times.
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So... damage calculation with a greater vital strike, mythic vital strike, power attack, mythic power, improved critical and mythic improved critical, an attack should be fun with the right weapon.
Lets see what a level 17 fighter 10 champion/trickster can do:
Fighter - Vital Striker
Human Fighter 17
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +17; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 30, touch 14, flat-footed 26 (+16 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 239 (17d10+133)
Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +7 (+4 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +4
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 Adamantine Nodachi +41/+36/+31/+26 (1d10+56/15-20/x3) and
. . Unarmed strike +34/+29/+24/+19 (1d3+32/x2)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +4, close +3, natural +2, pole arms +1)
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Statistics
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Str 38, Dex 18, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +17; CMB +31; CMD 45
Feats Blinding Critical (DC 27), Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Critical Focus, Devastating Strike, Dual Path (Trickster) [Mythic], Furious Focus, Greater Vital Strike, Greater Weapon Specialization (Nodachi), Improved Critical (Nodachi), Improved Critical [Mythic], Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mythic Paragon [Mythic], Power Attack -0/+15, Power Attack [Mythic], Vital Strike, Vital Strike [Mythic], Weapon Focus (Nodachi), Weapon Specialization (Nodachi)
Skills
Languages Common
SQ amazing initiative (1/round), force of will, hard to kill, immortal, legendary champion, legendary hero, mythic saving throws, recuperation, surge, unstoppable
Other Gear +5 Adamantine Nodachi, Belt of physical perfection +6, 150 GP
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Special Abilities
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Always a Chance (Ex) You don’t automatically miss when you roll a 1 on an attack roll.
Amazing Initiative (1/round) (Ex) As a free action, use 1 power to gain an extra standard action (can't be used to cast a spell).
Blinding Critical (DC 27) Critical hit blinds or dazzles target.
Bravery +4 (Ex) +4 to Will save vs. Fear
Class Mimic (130 minutes) (Su) Spend 1 power and touch willing creature to copy one of its class features.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Critical Master (Mythic) (Ex) Automatically confirm critical hits and do maximum damage.
Devastating Strike Deal extra damage when using Vital Strike bonus
Distant Barrage (Ex) As a swift action, use 1 power make a ranged att with +X bonus, ignoring cover/concealment & bypassing all DR.
Enduring Armor +16 (Su) Armor of force grants armor bonus equal to 3 + your tier.
Fleet Charge (Ex) As a swift action, use 1 power to move your speed while making an attack that bypasses all DR and gains a +13 bonus.
Force of Will (Ex) As an immediate action, use 1 power to reroll any d20, or force non-mythic to reroll.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Hard to Kill (Ex) Automatically stabilize when dying, and only die at neg Con x 2.
Immortal (Su) Ressurrect next day, unless killed by an artifact's crit.
Legendary Champion (Ex) On a miss against a non-mythic foe, reroll and take 2nd result. Activate when roll 20 to regain 1 power.
Legendary Hero (Su) One use of mythic power is regained each hr.
Lesson Learned (13 minutes) (Ex) After failing a save vs. supernatural or spell-like ability, +5 to saves vs. same effect.
Mythic Saving Throws (Ex) A successful save negates all effects from a non-mythic source.
Power Attack -0/+15 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Power Attack [Mythic] Use 1 power to eliminate attack penalties of Power attack for 1 min.
Precision Critical (Ex) On critical hit, doube extra precision damage dice.
Recuperation (Ex) Fully heal after 8 hrs rest, use 1 power and 1 hr to heal half and restore all non-mythic abilities.
Shatter Spells (Su) Make melee attack and spend 1 power to dispel a magical effect.
Steal Power (Su) Standard action and melee touch attack to steal mythic w/opposed tier check.
Surge (1d12) (Su) Use 1 power to increase any d20 roll by the listed amount.
Unstoppable (Ex) As a free action, use 1 power to end one listed condition on yourself.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Vital Strike [Mythic] Vital Strike multiplies dam bonus by number of extra weapon dice rolled.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Close) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Weapon Training (Natural) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Natural weapons
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole ArmsHero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Tell me that I am wrong please:
standard attack with power attack 1d10+56/x3
greater vital strike (mythic) with power attack: 4d10+248/x3
greater vital strike (mythic) with power attack critical threat (automatic confirm) 1128 damage ?
EDIT: Forgot that the extra damage dice aren't multiplied by a critical hit so the crit damage is only 1068?
Sebastion you are correct. Friend and I were running the numbers as a level 20 fighter using a falchion. He would be Vital striking more than once every round for over 20 rounds. His crits were around 1600 dmg. Insane!
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Sebastion you are correct. Friend and I were running the numbers as a level 20 fighter using a falchion. He would be Vital striking more than once every round for over 20 rounds. His crits were around 1600 dmg. Insane!
On one hand, I can appreciate, that fighters now can rocket tag too.... but at this rate, combats are going to be really short. I have honestly no idea how the current adventure path will be able to post a challenge.
While I have to admit that the RAW isn't clear about it, I'm pretty sure you are not supposed to multiply the extra damage on a critical hi but to count it like a higher crit multiplier. Remember that the Vital Strike dice are not multiplied but added to the total and damage multiplications generally only stack additive with each other.
So with a x4 weapon it become:
normal xdy+z damage
greater vital strike 4*(xdy+z)
critical greater vital strike 8*(xdy+z)
Your example would thus "only" do about 500 damage (though I already know a few further tricks which could take it again quite a bit higher....).
That is still enough to onehit pretty much everything, but quite a bit lower than what a Mythic Full Attack build can do.
And remember that Fleet Warrior takes out most of what made Vital Strike useful (Move + attack), so they had to bring the damage roughly to the same level as a Full Attack or it would have become completely useless.
As it stands it's less that Vital Strike allows Meeles to Rocket Tag and more that ANY Mythic Build slightly optimized for damage leads to rocket tag.
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While I have to admit that the RAW isn't clear about it, I'm pretty sure you are not supposed to multiply the extra damage on a critical hi but to count it like a higher crit multiplier. Remember that the Vital Strike dice are not multiplied but added to the total and damage multiplications generally only stack additive with each other.
So with a x4 weapon it become:
normal xdy+z damage
greater vital strike 4*(xdy+z)
critical greater vital strike 8*(xdy+z)Your example would thus "only" do about 500 damage (though I already know a few further tricks which could take it again quite a bit higher....).
That is still enough to onehit pretty much everything, but quite a bit lower than what a Mythic Full Attack build can do.
And remember that Fleet Warrior takes out most of what made Vital Strike useful (Move + attack), so they had to bring the damage roughly to the same level as a Full Attack or it would have become completely useless.As it stands it's less that Vital Strike allows Meeles to Rocket Tag and more that ANY Mythic Build slightly optimized for damage leads to rocket tag.
I am not sure, but I think extra dice are usually not multiplied on a critical hit, but a static damage bonus usually is.
And one of the really big advantages of vital strike, is that you can spend a point of mythic power to get another standard action.
I really don't know what to think about all those damage spikes in mythic....it kinda feels like level 1.
Ah, found the rules text (remember that Vital Strike is not a static bonus, but a multiplication):
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
You multiply damage twice, once for Mythic Vital Strike, once for Critical, thus the multiplier stack additively.
Note also that I didn't mean this as: Every Mythic Vital Strike build deals less damage than a Full Attack build (that's something I'm not clear about yet, to many possible builds), but that the build you gave is less damage than a good Full Attack Build.
I wouldn't say it feels like level 1 (level 1 you usually have a high chance to miss), but like high level 3.5 play....
Well, the highest level 20/mythic 10 Vital Strike build I could quickly put together (took me about 10 minutes, so probably not the best possible) gets 4 Vital Strikes per round for an average of 2190,375 damage per round (as long as everything hits, which should be the case against pretty much everything that doesn't really pump AC/ has a miss chance/uses Crane Wing. Though its always possible that I did miscalculate something.)...
And guess what? It uses 12 level of monk.^^
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Well, the highest level 20/mythic 10 Vital Strike build I could quickly put together (took me about 10 minutes, so probably not the best possible) gets 4 Vital Strikes per round for an average of 2190,375 damage per round (as long as everything hits, which should be the case against pretty much everything that doesn't really pump AC/ has a miss chance/uses Crane Wing. Though its always possible that I did miscalculate something.)...
And guess what? It uses 12 level of monk.^^
How do you get 4 vital strikes?
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How do you get 4 vital strikes?Well, the highest level 20/mythic 10 Vital Strike build I could quickly put together (took me about 10 minutes, so probably not the best possible) gets 4 Vital Strikes per round for an average of 2190,375 damage per round (as long as everything hits, which should be the case against pretty much everything that doesn't really pump AC/ has a miss chance/uses Crane Wing. Though its always possible that I did miscalculate something.)...
And guess what? It uses 12 level of monk.^^
That's what I'm wondering, since with vital strike you get one attack and one attack only.
Further, I genuinely think the feat really is the total number of weapon damage dice rolled, otherwise, with vital strike only (unless you have a weapon that has 2 damage dice at base instead of 1) you do the same amount of damage as you would on a crit. Thus making this feat quite useless. Or the really just want you to really take the full vital strike tree.
Monk of the four winds triple standard action + mythic initiative for 4 vital strikes.
Anyway, who knows, death or glory could find some use now...
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How do you get 4 vital strikes?Well, the highest level 20/mythic 10 Vital Strike build I could quickly put together (took me about 10 minutes, so probably not the best possible) gets 4 Vital Strikes per round for an average of 2190,375 damage per round (as long as everything hits, which should be the case against pretty much everything that doesn't really pump AC/ has a miss chance/uses Crane Wing. Though its always possible that I did miscalculate something.)...
And guess what? It uses 12 level of monk.^^
That's what I'm wondering, since with vital strike you get one attack and one attack only.
Further, I genuinely think the feat really is the total number of weapon damage dice rolled, otherwise, with vital strike only (unless you have a weapon that has 2 damage dice at base instead of 1) you do the same amount of damage as you would on a crit. Thus making this feat quite useless. Or the really just want you to really take the full vital strike tree.
The reason is actually quite simple, they wanted to make just one mythic feat, that stays usefull from level 6 to 16 and beyond. But no it cant really be based on the dice, otherwise barbarian rangers with large bastard swords .... well you get the picture.
Pretty obviously, "weapon damage dice" refers to the dice roll listed under "damage" in the weapon listing. That set of dice is multiplied by the vital strike feat chain. The mythic vital strike feat tells to apply the multiplier granted by the vital strike feat chain (x2,x3,x4) also to a specific subset of damage bonuses, as listed in the description.
I think I can't say it often enough:
If they would REALLY mean weapon damage dice, the feat would just be plain out broken (yes, even more than Mythic already is).
You all do know that it is possible to get 12d8 as damage die? And that dealing 48 times your strength bonus alone would be slightly ridiculous? If you really want, I can sketch you a build (actually mostly the same monk build that gets over 2000 with the sane ruling) which would do about 13000 damage with that reading... Not that more damage changes anything above a certain threshold.