I was WONDERING when you'd see that thread reference Lamontius :)
Jason...cool!!!
Are the Mythic Rules in any way "Backwards Compatible" with already existing APs?
If so, how?
If the guidance that 2 Tiers is equivalent to one character level works, then it should be immediately and easily compatible with everything.
Obviously you always need to look out for unintended interactions, but that aside it should work. Unless that guidance turns out not to work.
Honestly, I'd love to see this work out interchangeably. Throw appropriate CR Mythic monsters at non-mythic parties and the reverse. (The reverse in particular seems to be a clear intent). But also one mythic char in an otherwise normal campaign could be cool. I'd like to see a Fighter 6 (MT 3) running with a group of Level 8 characters and see it actually work.
So, I haven't read this book at all and I wasn't really planning on picking it up, but just from the description, this whole mythic path thing sounds a LOT like how 4th ed. D&D powers work. Am I way off on this? I'm really not a fan of 4th ed., which is why this was kind of an instant turn off for me, but I'm just really curious if anyone else was thinking this.I don't see any similarities, so it could just be that you are way off. Or there is some major thing that I am missing.
I guess that's good. Like I said, I'm just mainly going with assumption of what I thought it would be like based on the description, I haven't actually seen any material from it yet and I was just wondering
It seems like that would not work. Some Mythic Things (like: 1 round No save Hexes against non-mythic) are just stupidly powerful against non-mythic foes while on the other hand someone who has "exchanged" a few level for Mythic tier lacks behind both in HP and character progression (which doesn't matter for some classes, but destroys others).
In general, the Mythic rules seem to assume everyone always has a Mythic Tier of roughly half his Character level, as that's what a lot of scaling things are balanced for ( for example: use twice your Mythic Tier as caster level for dispel. If its not roughly half your character level, then this is either horribly weak or completely overpowered.)
Throwing non mythic mooks at the party works well though, but bosses are pretty much required to be mythic, too.
Maybe so. I'm not claiming either way yet.
I tend to think that giving up the highest level or two of abilities to give lower level abilities strong perks could still work out. But it could also blow up.
We will see.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Did you say ?I was surprised to not see a mythic succubus in MA.And a mythically *ahem* enhanced bare...errr...bear druidess in a grapple.
I posted up a new thread to talk about this product line, but since I teased it here, I should at least link it there:
Behold, the Mythic Monsters line from Legendary Games!
Any decent mythic archer feats kickin around?
A decent number. Your enemies will fight in the shade. Well, for the second the arrows need to hit.
Yes, as I said using a mix of mythic and non-mythic monsters is no problem and intended.
But mixing mythic/non-mythic characters in a party or throwing only non-mythic monsters against a mythic party is something that would probably require a great deal of DM-side planning/gentleman agreements to work properly.
Just saying:
"Oh, they are mythic X, so I'll just throw monsters with a by Y higher CR at them." has the potential for disaster.
I preordered mine back in June, I think, and because I delayed shipping to coincide with the release of Bestiary 4, I have a question. The order says "pending", but does that mean I can still go ahead and download the pdf? Or do I get that at all when ordering the hard copy?
I already answered you in the product discussion, but here again:
You wont get the PDF if you just preordered the hardcopy, you only get it for free if you are subscribed.
No, there is not (at least if I'm not completely blind).
Yes, it is still there. Though it also kinda has to be there as long as Mythic Vital Strike exists, or Two-Handed Full Attacks would become kinda lackluster.
And I don't think many people would actually argue that over-sized weapons (as long as its reasonably restricted) are overpowered, but a lot of people don't like the "anime feeling" it provides.
There is also either not much flavor gain in providing easy access to two handed in one hand (if you want to say your bastard sword looks like a greatsword, nothing in the rules stops you) or its already possible (you can already wield larger weapons with a penalty, it's just horribly weak).
Also providing easy, general support for it would kinda invalidate the (without optimizing rather weak) Titan Mauler Archetype and Paizo always said they don't want new material to invalidate old.
Nope:
Always a Chance (Ex): You don’t automatically miss
when you roll a 1 on an attack roll.
I would actually say Mythic greatly increases the value of AC, you (as in a monster) just need more for it to make a difference.
Because if you don't invest in it (how have a way to stop the enemy from attacking/hitting in some other way), you are probably dead in one or at most two round against dedicated martials as every iterative hits.
Against player on the other hand, the GM can just hold back and not put everything into optimizing damage/not take those abilities and everything is fine.
About CR/Mythic Rank:
It doesn't directly, as CR and Mythic Rank are counted differently.
Though having a MR does seem to increase the CR, but so far I haven't found a formula for it.
[Edit: Because I'm blind. It's new CR = original CR+ 1/2 MR]
A Mythic Aboleth for example is counted as CR9/MR3.
Edit2: And I seem to fail at reading the question, too...
A PC with Mythic Tier is supposed to count as Character Level + 1/2 Mythic Tier for Encounter selection, reward etc. purpose. Though I would advise to handle this with great care and rather adjust per hand.
Thanks to Teller of Tales for helping out with answering questions. :)
Alleran: Yeah, there are a lot of really good feats/abilities in this book. But the book itself is optional and I think maybe 20% of all Pathfinder campaigns will end up being mythic in the end (if at that, I may be rampantly optimistic here), so I think the common Eldritch Heritage feats are not made completely worthless.
So can shadow type spells become more real than the real spells they're mimicking? If so that does sound fairly mythic.
Dying to get my hands on this now.
I fear I have seen nothing at all in the book which enhances the different Shadow Evocation/Conjuration spells effectiveness.
The thing I really want to know is, in general, does it look like the mythic paths can work with a large variation of classes entering them or are they very "archmages are wizards, heirophants are clerics"? I really hope there are a decent number of abilities in each path that can work with any class who chooses that path but I know any answer to this will be very subjective and I won't be satisfied til I get the book for myself.
Well, the paths are obviously centered on different archetypical directions you can take your character. However, there seems to be quite a lot of crossover material, so if you have a special concept, you might want to take an atypical path. I expect the Dual Path mythic feat to see a lot of use, because even if you are an Archmage, you might want to get an ability from the other paths. Although there is the little problem that, when taking the Dual Path feat, you get to choose one of the three starting abilities of the path you are entering and those often don't fit your main class at all.
For example, if I play an Archmage, but want to get the Mighty Summons ability from the Hierophant path ( a must for conjurers, IMO, because the agile creature template alone is incredibly good), I get to choose from three abilities when taking Dual Path, of which two are of no use for me because they deal exclusively with divine spells and the third one only would be of use for me if I had an animal companion, cohort, eidolon, familiar or bonded mount. It doesn't help summoned creatures.
Dual pathing Defenders to not get blown by mythic wind seems quite mandatory if you are playing any threatening campaign.
Oh, cool, I just found an excellent ability from the Trickster tree, which allows you as an Archmage to go Trickster via Dual Path and get Mighty Summons from the Hierophant tree. And the Trickster starting abilities are way more helpful for the Archmage (although still cornercase, mostly).
There is a good number of abilities in the Trickster for Alchemists, although not an overwhelming one. You probably want to dual class with Archmage.
What kinds of abilities are there for PCs, NPCs, and monsters (primarily monsters) that might protect from your typical save or die effects such as flesh to stone?
What kinds of abilities are there for PCs, NPCs, and monsters (primarily monsters) that might protect from your typical save or die effects such as flesh to stone?
For PC's and NPC's in no particular order:
- Mythic versions of Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, which allow you to roll your save twice and take the better result.
- The Surge ability which every mythic character gets, which allows you to spend a charge of mythic power to add an additional 1d6 to 1d12 ( scales with higher mythic tier ) to your roll results, after you have rolled your save/attack/etc. and as an immediate action.
- Mythic cloaks of protection, which have one kind of save one higher than the rest and allow you to spend one mythic power charge as an immediate action to reroll that kind of save if you fail it (example: Cape of Free Will +5/+6 Will, allows to reroll Will save if failed by spending a mythic power charge).
- Mythic Saves ( tier 5 base ability) allows you to ignore effects completely against which you save, unless they come from a mythic opponent.
- Unstoppable (tier 8 base ability) lets you end one of a host of conditions (not polymorphed or flesh-to-stone'd, though) on you as a free action by spending one mythic power charge.
- Guardian path: Parry Spell ability (tier 3+), make an attack roll vs. Save DC or attack roll of ray/single target spell as an immediate action, if you succeed the spell has no effect. Also works to parry spells targeting people adjacent to you.
- Universal path: Unchanging (tier 3+), makes you immune to non-mythic polymorph and petrification effects.
I think there are more abilities, but I'd have to re-read all the different paths, which is a bit much at the moment. I hope I was some help nonetheless.
But as for monsters:
- Surge: Every mythic monster gets surge, as described above.
- Second Save: Some mythic monsters have the second save ability, which allows it to make a save every turn against ongoing effects, if it failed its initial save. If it succeeds at one of those saves, it is handled as if the initial save had succeeded. If it already gets one save every round, it gets a second one with this ability. Second Save is part of the Invincible simple mythic template.
Note: None of the sample monsters in the book have the Second Save ability or Invincible simple template.
Well, there are quite a few "reroll" abilities and there is an guardian ability that lets them "block" a single target spell.
Overall save or die effect do become a lot more powerful (again...), as it seems the save DC increase through Mythic Tiers (mainly thanks to the ability increase) greatly outweighs the (pretty much non-existent) save bonus increase.
[God, I always forget the Surge. Yes, if you spend those resources, the chance for survival aren't that bad. But if you are flatfooted or need the immediate action for something else, you are probably dead on a 19 (on weak saves against optimized save or die specialists). So not much changed compared to non mythic...]
Just saying:
"Oh, they are mythic X, so I'll just throw monsters with a by Y higher CR at them." has the potential for disaster.
Originally they promoted exactly this as a goal. And the example adventure also does exactly this.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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I'll have to look over the Mythic adventure as published, but what I believe the goal was was a mix of mythic encounters, normal encounters of the party's non-mythic level, and harder non-mythic encounters aimed at the party's adjusted level.
I don't think the adventure is "they have 3 mythic tiers, so everything's +3 CR".
Do you need 20 levels of a class to start taking mythic levels? Or is it possible to multiclass/take levels of prestige classes and get the 20 HD before we can start taking the mythic paths?Neither.
You can start gaining mythic tiers as early as 1st level if that's the way the GM has set up the campaign.
Wait so you can take Archmage/Marshal classes before level 20? Is it set up that you get 1 sort of level in a mythic class per mythic tier?
I'll have to look over the Mythic adventure as published, but what I believe the goal was was a mix of mythic encounters, normal encounters of the party's non-mythic level, and harder non-mythic encounters aimed at the party's adjusted level.
I don't think the adventure is "they have 3 mythic tiers, so everything's +3 CR".
Right.
The adventure is for APL7 and grants 3 MT*.It throws a CR9 fight at them and says it would be "Hard" (straight from the Core guidelines) without Mythic, but they should make short work of it. If you count 3MT as +1.5 to APL, that pretty much works out.
* - I also wish they made a bigger deal out of this approach. The original idea as described heavily embraced the idea that you could suddenly gain a stack of tiers, face a threat, and then lose those tiers and resume "normal" adventuring. The characters section seems to strongly push the start at Tier 1 and progress from their expectation. I don't have any problem with that approach either. But I wish the more flexible and open style was pushed. Maybe I just missed some text somewhere.
So how does someone gain access to Hierophant/Archmage etc? Are these paths or classes? GM just decides if you get these?
Okay thank you for clearing it up. So whether you hit say Tier 1 Archmage, or Tier 10. It is entirely up to the GM.
Um, where does this idea come from that you cannot choose your mythic path yourself? Page 11 of the book says "Once you gain mythic power, you select a mythic path,...". It doesn't say anything about the GM choosing for you.
The GM controls (mostly) if/when you get to have mythic power, and if/when you increase. The player selects the Path, and the abilities gained from those available based on the path. Some abilities require a specific number of Mythic tiers, just as Feats may require a minimum BAB or Skill ranks.
The intention is for the story to drive some of the Mythic-ness. If the story requires the PCs to temporarily gain Mythic power to take on a chapter boss, for example, they can gain it.. and it can be removed after that special fight. Or, it can build as they proceed through a campaign to fight a powerful mythic enemy at the end.
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Should all Mythic characters gain the Mythic subtype?
Should all Mythic characters gain the Mythic subtype?
Interesting question, but so far I've only seen official mythic monsters, not mythic NPC's. So I must pass on a definite answer. The mythic monsters all had the subtype.
Should all Mythic characters gain the Mythic subtype?
No, Mythic Tiers and the Mythic Subtype are actually impossible to have at the same time.
Only Mythic Monsters gain the Mythic Subtype. Even a "normal monster" with Mythic Tier does not get the Mythic Subtype and if you gain the Mythic Subtype you loose all your Mythic Tiers (but get some Mythic Ranks, generally half your original CR).It's pretty much like this:
If it's a character/NPC with Mythic Tier, it does not have the Mythic Subtype
If it's a NPC/Monster with a Mythic Rank, it does usually have the Mythic Subtype
Example:
A Mythic Character with the normal Vampire Template has a Mythic Tier and the same Mythic Abilities as a Mythic PC. => No Mythic Subtype
A normal character with the Mythic Vampire Template has a Mythic Rank and the abilities of that template. => Mythic Subtype
Note:
If a Mythic Character get the Mythic Vampire Template, he looses all his Mythic Tiers and gets a Mythic Rank ONLY depending on his original CR (without Mythic Tiers).
This can indeed make him weaker than just getting the normal vampire template.
Want to be an Archmage that became a Mythic Vampire? To bad, you loose pretty much all Mythic Casting Boons without any (RAW, as a DM I would just overrule it, so I guess it's no big problem) way to regain them.
Hmm, then she is not possible to be build with the rules in Mythic Adventures, but her custom template/unique buildup not released here that also specifically modifies the subtype or they indeed mixed up terminologies and just meant to mark her as Mythic (as opposed to having the Mythic Subtype, which, without MR doesn't make much sense).
Note that having the subtype gives A LOT of different abilites depending on MR that a normal Mythic Character does not posses.
The book gives two ways to get the Mythic Subtype:
By getting a Mythic Template that also grants the subtype (like Mythic Lich or Mythic Vampire, all of them "delete" the Mythic Tier of a character)
By the "Making an existing Monster Mythic"-rules, which add the Mythic subtype, but can only be added to non-mythic creatures (so no Mythic Tier).
Mythic Rank: A creature with the mythic subtype gains 1 to 10 mythic ranks, representing its overall mythic power.
Its rank is generally equal to 1/2 its original CR.
A creature shouldn’t have both a mythic tier and a
mythic rank.
Where again did they give Baba Yagas stats?
Edit: Ah, in "The Witch Queen’s Revenge"? Well, I don't have that, so can't check if its the (modified?) subtype or just to note she is Mythic.
Probably. Though it means they kinda messed up, having two thing (the actual Mythic Subtype and just being Mythic) noted in a stat-block in exactly the same way.
So, if they now publish a monster that has Mythic Ranks, but is not supposed to have the abilities of the Mythic Subtype (like increased Natural Armor, Ability Boni etc.) one will have to check all values to actually know if it has the subtype or not. That could turn monster advancement into a major headache...
Maybe anyone around who has Wrath of the Righteous and can tell us how it's done there? (assuming there are Mythic NPC's in it)