P6 Codex - E6+Pathfinder


Homebrew

1 to 50 of 199 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

49 people marked this as a favorite.

P6 Codex is an implementation of E6 for Pathfinder. By limiting regular PC and NPC advancement to 6th level (feats are gained after that point) it allows the game to focus on the gritty and heroic stages... without worrying about what the super-heroic arch-mage and fighter a few blocks over are planning.

A .pdf of the Abridged P6 Codex is currently available in its beta version at P6Codex.com. It contains the P6 Codex rules for post 6th level advancement for players just interested in applying P6 to the Core Rulebook (without all of the extras from the non-Core books).

I'm looking forward to any comments, especially on places you think it might be missing its target.

The full P6 Codex rule set should be ready this fall. It will contain a carefully selected subset of the various Advanced and Ultimate options and contains new rules for NPC classes and non-adventuring advancement. Two supplements in the spring will cover all of the classes that the standard rules leave out.


Great to see this work undertaken. I'll take a look and get back to you...


Great work! I like the delineation of epic, signature and ritual feats. The facility of some of the Signature feats to impart 8th (and 9th for sorcerors) level options is great.

Nice too that support for APG will appear in P6 Codex: Apocrypha and Gunslingers in P6 Codex: Gunsmoke.

One quick question:

Why the limit on one signature feat - for example, if I were a Monk i'd be wanting to take the Unarmed Defense as well as the Unarmed Offense signature feat...


Love it, and am especially happy about the addition of the Apocrypha and Gunsmoke material coming down the pipe eventually!

Best of luck going forward and thanks for sharing your work!

Grand Lodge

This is good. Thanks. I am looking forward to the updates. One thing I may mention is that there could be a section in your rules about modifying certain level 4 spells to act as/be learned as level 3 spells. Cone of Cold, for instance, is not unbalanced in its use or damage by being a level 3 spell.

I do like the section on undead creation you mentioned. Depending on the GM, the spell could become a level 3 wizard/sorcerer spell depending on Arcane School or bloodline.


Well I have been considering trying E6 for some time now, so this is very welcome to my table.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I really dig this! Good job.

Still I do have some quibbles:

Legendary Craftsman: "Your required caster level for producing items of the selected type with a +3 enhancement bonus (and no special ability) is reduced to 8th level"
That's kind of boring. Just let them create +3 equivalent items (So +2 with a +1 equivalent or +1 with a +2 equivalent ability).

Also this feat needs errata:

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Signature)
Your sneak attack damage increases
Prerequisite: Rogue level 6th
Benefit: Your damage from sneak attack increases to +4d6.

Additionally,

Greater Skillfulness is clumsily worded. Here's how I would do it.
"Gain 5 skill points. Choose one skill from the skill list of your favored class (or classes), that skill has a maximum rank of 8."

Extra Skill Capacity: The character should gain 1 + Intelligence Bonus in skill points to distribute.

Since you can't take these feats more than once they take care of themselves.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Great work! I like the delineation of epic, signature and ritual feats. The facility of some of the Signature feats to impart 8th (and 9th for sorcerors) level options is great.

Thanks!

Quote:
Why the limit on one signature feat - for example, if I were a Monk i'd be wanting to take the Unarmed Defense as well as the Unarmed Offense signature feat...

I was having trouble with some of the balance issues doing that. For some of the martial classes, they would basically have everything an 8th level character would and more with the right choice of feats, while the clerics/druids/wizards noticeably wouldn't since they'd lack the 4th level spells. And it seemed odd to let the Clerics get two of their special domain powers but only allow the Sorcs and Wizards one. (The S/W are a bit more powerful, but the Clerics get to apply the 8th level to all the powers in that level to balance it out).

Maybe a paragraph on options for those who wanted the powers to extend upwards a little more than 7th level + higher power?

Helaman wrote:
One thing I may mention is that there could be a section in your rules about modifying certain level 4 spells to act as/be learned as level 3 spells. Cone of Cold, for instance, is not unbalanced in its use or damage by being a level 3 spell.

Something on modifying spells seems incredibly useful - does the section on Designing Spells from Ultimate Magic cover that? It also contains a list of benchmark spells and singles out Cone of Cold as the weakest you'd want a 5th level spell to be. I'll keep in mind mentioning that there are rules for modifying spells there in the unabridge P6 Codex. One thing that's possible for a later supplement is a spell collection of the best ones outside of the Advanced/Ultimate books, including non-Paizo sources.

For winter spells in particular, People of the North has a nice list of all of them up through 2012. For third level S/W they list Ice Spears and Vengeful Comets from Inner Sea Magic as well as Sleet Storm. Sometimes I can't decide if the way the different energies are treated separately for spell choice is a flavor feature or an annoyance.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I really dig this! Good job.

Still I do have some quibbles:

Legendary Craftsman: "Your required caster level for producing items of the selected type with a +3 enhancement bonus (and no special ability) is reduced to 8th level"
That's kind of boring. Just let them create +3 equivalent items (So +2 with a +1 equivalent or +1 with a +2 equivalent ability).

Right now the abilities and plusses work in parallel for crafting items, so a caster level 6th +2 and a caster level 3 power (+1 equiv) would just count as caster level 6th and not add, right? I'll revisit the other items that need caster level 9th and see how many that would add versus caster level 8th and if it seems to make a big difference.

Quote:

Also this feat needs errata:

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Signature)
Your sneak attack damage increases
Prerequisite: Rogue level 6th
Benefit: Your damage from sneak attack increases to +4d6.

Ack! Thank you for the catch. I might just go back and fix that one as a typo later this evening without rolling over to a new edition.

Quote:


Additionally,

Greater Skillfulness is clumsily worded. Here's how I would do it.
"Gain 5 skill points. Choose one skill from the skill list of your favored class (or classes), that skill has a maximum rank of 8."

Extra Skill Capacity: The character should gain 1 + Intelligence Bonus in skill points to distribute.

I'll rethink Greater Skillfulness and Greater Toughness to see if the extra complication in wording is worth it. I wanted them both to give more than the Skillfulness and Toughness, but to kind of keep the spirit of those two feats.

For the Extra Skill Capacity, I had been thinking of something like that, but I was wondering if it made it overpowered. It does seem odd to make the order you take Greater Skillfulness and Extra Skill Capacity in make that much of a difference. I'll rethink that one too.

For the maximum skill rank of 8, I had been pondering putting in something like that for a signature feat (where the other 8th level things show up).

Liberty's Edge

I've been interested in this a bit lately, ill have to read further into it later.

Grand Lodge

I have been long since pondering this kind of system for Dragonlance, War of the Lance era...


I think this looks good (not that I know).
One thing that I noticed is that some classes have more options (for signature feats) than others. The druid has a lot of options, the ranger too. The barbarian doesn't have an option, but, he can pick from a variety of 8th level rage powers which is good. but the rogue can't pick anything, it's kind of boring. So I wonder if we could try to think of ways to even that up -- maybe give the rogue a signature option to pick one of the advanced talents, or to get an uber-skill-boosting feat (rogues being the primary skill class), or something like that. So he has some choices to make.
It seems like druids would be really powerful in this, between the animal companion and the huge wild shape (and spells). But, that's just a guess.


jerrys wrote:
I think this looks good (not that I know).

Thanks! I'm looking for all the opinions I can get.

Quote:
One thing that I noticed is that some classes have more options (for signature feats) than others. The druid has a lot of options, the ranger too. The barbarian doesn't have an option, but, he can pick from a variety of 8th level rage powers which is good. but the rogue can't pick anything, it's kind of boring. So I wonder if we could try to think of ways to even that up -- maybe give the rogue a signature option to pick one of the advanced talents, or to get an uber-skill-boosting feat (rogues being the primary skill class), or something like that. So he has some choices to make.

For the Rogues in the unabridged P6 Codex (that will use selected material from the Advanced and Ultimate books), I'm considering giving them some of the options from the archetypes that have a substitution for Improved Uncanny Dodge. The ones in the Advanced and Ultimate Books are things like Distraction, Skirmisher, and Trap Master in APG and Fearsome Strike and Divine Epiphany in UC. I haven't started weighing those out yet (I'm working through the classes pretty much alphabetically).

For the abridged P6 Codex I'm intentionally limiting it to just things in the Core, and the Core Rogue's are pretty boring in terms of class features at 7th and 8th level. In an earlier rough draft I had considered allowing 8th or 9th level powers as signature feats for all the classes, but that seemed to get overpowered and crowd things more than it helped. I hadn't thought about going to 10th.

Quote:
It seems like druids would be really powerful in this, between the animal companion and the huge wild shape (and spells). But, that's just a guess.

With just the Epic feats I think the Rogues get all of the powers they would have at 7th level, while the Druids wouldn't have the 4th level spells. Since they only get one signature feat, I'm hoping none of the classes will be too unbalanced due to the choices of signature feats.


I am so glad you did this, now I do not have to.


Spellcasters are severely limited at 6th level... They have almost no offensive endurance.

Something would need to be done to enhance them, like sleep allow ing wizards to prepare spells a second time in a 24 hours period, or sorcerors spells regenerating over time.

A spell points system variation would work well.

Another variant would be making scrolls significantly cheaper. like allowing scrolls to be made from regular ink and paper.

1/8th of an ounce of ink, plus a sheet of paper costs 1.5GP... might work for a 1st level scroll.


I think that meta-magic is difficult to use in P6 and my idea to solve it is as follows.

Instead of using a slot of higher level the owner of the feat may as a swift action apply the feat to any spell that he can cast with no level adjustment. They may do this a number of times per day equal to 4-level adjustment with a minimum of 1.

The cast may also use up higher level spell slots as normal if they wish.

The action to apply quicken spell also casts the spell.

I am not sure how powerful this would be and it would be acceptable to take this feat more then once to gain extra uses per day.

Grand Lodge

JTibbs wrote:
Spellcasters are severely limited at 6th level... They have almost no offensive endurance

I disagree - they have more than an adequate number of spells for an adventuring day. What they don't have the endurance for is to be Schrödinger's wizard. This encourages them to put more thought into their daily spell selection and in how many spells they sling around per encounter and what spells they use per encounter. A wizard with 16 Int (very doable) is going to get 4 1st level, 4 2nd level and 3 3rd level spells... and thats assuming they are a universalist. With Arcane school that number goes from 11 to 14 spells... not counting cantrips and/or arcane school powers such as force bolts, acid bolts etc.

Keep in mind that in E6 the CL of encounters stays relative - Orcs (or similar 1-2HD critters( are going to be as much a part of the landscape at the upper end of E6 as it is in the beginning stages. Colour spray, sleep and other level 1 spells are going to stay relevant for much of your foes (just maybe not the BBEG and their top flunkies).

That gives them enough spells to contribute but not so much that they don't need to lean on their more martial brethren, one of the points I like about E6

Grand Lodge

A separate Rant:

Why do we call it P6? E6 isn't D&D6 or 3.5 6. It works no matter if you use either system.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Helaman wrote:

A separate Rant:

Why do we call it P6? E6 isn't D&D6 or 3.5 6. It works no matter if you use either system.

I think because these options are specifically branded with options from Pathfinder books.


Helaman wrote:

A separate Rant:

Why do we call it P6? E6 isn't D&D6 or 3.5 6. It works no matter if you use either system.

In the introduction text of the document it's said that it cover Post-6th level. Also when reading P6, Pathfinder version of E6 comes to mind.


JTibbs wrote:

Spellcasters are severely limited at 6th level... They have almost no offensive endurance.

Something would need to be done to enhance them,

Mathius wrote:
I think that meta-magic is difficult to use in P6 and my idea to solve it is as follows.
Helaman wrote:
I disagree - they have more than an adequate number of spells for an adventuring day. What they don't have the endurance for is to be Schrödinger's wizard.

One of the big decisions is how much of the base game to rewrite -- is it Pathfinder with just a few things added, is it Pathfinder with lots of alterations to adjust class balance everywhere, or is it a new game rebuilt out of a stripped down Pathfinder chassis.

It's really tempting to do one of the later two, but I have doubts about anyone coming up with a balanced unbreakable version of something that feels like classic D&D... and near absolute certainty that I can't do it with real life time constraints and no massive play-testing group. So, going with the former, I'm basing everything in the P6 Codex on the idea that the Core Pathfinder PC classes are vaguely balanced through 7th level (including things like using meta-magic and the like). Or, if they aren't balanced enough, that everyone will at least recognize I'm following core and they will be able to put in their own favorite house rules.

For meta-magic, the "Greater Spell Casting Feat" does give some help to Clerics, Druids, and Wizards.

Helaman wrote:

A separate Rant:

Why do we call it P6? E6 isn't D&D6 or 3.5 6. It works no matter if you use either system.

I wondered that too when I first saw it being done. If the full title of the original is "E6: The Game Inside the Worlds Most Popular Game", is PF more popular than 3/3.5 now?

In any case P6 (or P8) seems to be common parlance... and I think it does do this ->

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


I think because these options are specifically branded with options from Pathfinder books.
Mordo wrote:


In the introduction text of the document it's said that it cover Post-6th level.

I wish I could say I'd noticed that :-)


Thanks for putting this together! We finished a campaign tonight, and rolled up new characters for an e6 game I will start DMing next week using core + the codex.


so much dot

i would assume that the rule would work for e12 right i am downloading now so i have not seen itbut caint wait for a look


I recommend that even when a full collection with material from all PF books is complete, there should still be a CRB-only version. E6 is a very attractive option for people who like to keep the game basic and simple without having to learn an entirely new game (and to my experience, there isn't really any game that combines the streamlined rules of the d20 system with a limited amount of character options).

Also, I modified Leadership by moving the column for recruiting cohorts down by three levels, and the columns to attract followers up by three levels. That way you won't get a cohort of the maximum possible cohort level at almost any time you take the feat, and you also have a chance to actually get any followers. A Leadership score of 10 is something a 6th level character really has to work for. I think it wouldn't be fun to take the feat and quite probably don't get any followers at all.


Prawn wrote:
Thanks for putting this together! We finished a campaign tonight, and rolled up new characters for an e6 game I will start DMing next week using core + the codex.

I hope we get to hear updates on how its going!

Kyras Ausks wrote:

so much dot

i would assume that the rule would work for e12 right i am downloading now so i have not seen itbut caint wait for a look

The idea of picking each classes powers for a certain level (13th in your case) and dividing them up into feats, and then allowing one feat from above that (14-15) could apply... but most of the particular feats here that weren't in the original E6 are pretty level specific. Sorry.

Yora wrote:
I recommend that even when a full collection with material from all PF books is complete, there should still be a CRB-only version.

Definitely! The abridged one will definitely stick around.

Quote:


Also, I modified Leadership by moving the column for recruiting cohorts down by three levels, and the columns to attract followers up by three levels. That way you won't get a cohort of the maximum possible cohort level at almost any time you take the feat, and you also have a chance to actually get any followers. A Leadership score of 10 is something a 6th level character really has to work for. I think it wouldn't be fun to take the feat and quite probably don't get any followers at all.

Thanks for the idea. I should have a chance to go over your fix this weekend and compare the numbers. I'll post back thoughts/questions as soon as I have.


hmm... going through all the feats of the P6, i can't seem to figure out how to get your Caster level to 8th so as to be able to take advantage of the feat that allows you to make +3 weapons.

Epic Caster will knock your caster level up to 7th, but there doesn't seem to be a way to knock it up to 8th here, unless im missing something.

If there isn't, then the epic weapon crafting feat to get +3 weapons seems pretty useless.

Arcane mastery only seems to work for your school power.

.
.
.
.
.
Other suggestions I'd have for a P6 system would be to redo the economy to be based is SP (silver pieces) instead of GP (gold pieces).

It would require re-pricing a lot of stuff, but it would make things a lot more functional, including the 1sp a day wage for untrained laborers. It would make them actually earn enough to LIVE then...

.
.
.
.
.
I'm also a litle upset it sorta nerfs elemental Arcane schools as well, seeing as you can never get the good Supremacy powers in them. At-Will fly ability for an Air Elementalist wizard is 10th level after all.


JTibbs wrote:
hmm... going through all the feats of the P6, i can't seem to figure out how to get your Caster level to 8th so as to be able to take advantage of the feat that allows you to make +3 weapons.

The first benefit under Legendary Craftsman is getting caster level 8th for purposes of that one feat. (Scared me, I had to go back and double check it was there.)

Quote:


Other suggestions I'd have for a P6 system would be to redo the economy to be based is SP (silver pieces) instead of GP (gold pieces).

Some of the numbers sure seem goofy. One of the things I'm already working on for the unabridged version is a slight modification of the pay for the Craft and Profession skills. In terms of the untrained, right now the 1sp per day earned for basic laborers matches the 3gp/month cost of living needed for a Poor life lifestyle. That a poor room and poor meals cost 3sp per day could be a problem though. I'm not looking to redo all the prices, but I will take your prod and at least review the basic cost of living.

Quote:


I'm also a litle upset it sorta nerfs elemental Arcane schools as well, seeing as you can never get the good Supremacy powers in them. At-Will fly ability for an Air Elementalist wizard is 10th level after all.

Then everyone else would want the 10th level powers for their classes too :-) Is that the argument for an "E8 Grimoire" or "E8 Libram"? Advancement to 8th, epic feats for 9th, and a signature at 10th?


Jr. Annalist wrote:


Then everyone else would want the 10th level powers for their classes too :-) Is that the argument for an "E8 Grimoire" or "E8 Libram"? Advancement to 8th, epic feats for 9th, and a signature at 10th?

Well it would work more better as a capstone class skill for P6 IMO.

A lot of the 10th level powers are just 'you've gotten REALLY good at this 3rd level spell', or the next bonus progession (oftentimes the second one after 5th level). Take the Air Elementalist for example. At will fly is pretty damned useful, but its still only a 3rd level spell.

The Earth Elementalist at level 10 gets a total +4 enhancement bonus to your CMD to resist bull rush, reposition, trip, and overrun attempts as long as you are touching the ground. Not game breaking for P6 either.

Fire elementalists just get +5 fire resistance on top of the +5 they get at lvl 5

Water elementalists at lvl 10 get their swim speed equal to their base speed, and get a small bonus to swim checks.

It really does seem like the lvl 10 school powers for elementalists would be perfect Epic capstone skills for P6.


JTibbs wrote:


A lot of the 10th level powers are just 'you've gotten REALLY good at this 3rd level spell', or the next bonus progession (oftentimes the second one after 5th level). Take the Air Elementalist for example. At will fly is pretty damned useful, but its still only a 3rd level spell.

Excellent point.

I certainly agree that there are a lot of 8th-10th level powers where its hard to see much of a power difference between them. In a previous draft I had allowed 8th or 9th level powers as signature, but ran into the problem that some of the 9th level powers seem to be significantly better than the one that could be gained at 8th level. It made the project mentally easier to just cap it at 8th level and use the assumption that the character classes are all roughly balanced at 8th level. Of course I immediately had to make an exception for the sorcerer abilities or they would miss their obvious signature power.

So, would you vote that going through all the 8th-10th level powers and deciding if they make the cut or not would be better than something like 'some 9th-10th level powers are generally equivalent to the 8th level ones currently in the signature feats, and GMs are encouraged to consider allowing them for their particular campaign on a case by case basis'? (Would you let the 9th level mercies through?)

Would you take being able to cast your prepared fly spells at will instead of as standard actions over Cyclone? (At least that's what I'm assuming the power is doing -- someone in another thread seemed to think it meant infinite flying and no one said anything.)


8-10th level powers should definitely be looked through, as not all classes have equal advancement rates. Cutting some off at 8th is great, while cutting others off at 8 loses a lot of versatility in the class, essentially crippling the 'Elemental Supremacy' class feature.
.
.
.
For air elementalists, their 'at will' spells don't ever run out. They still have to CAST them, but they are treated like higher level Cantrips.

So a 5th level Air Elementalist has Levitate as a pseudo-cantrip as a major class feature. So they can cast Levitate as many times as they want all day, but it still has all the limitations of a cast spell (time, armor check, etc).

The other schools lost out on the next advancement of their ability as well, which is a damn shame. Fire elementalists never get their 10 fire resistance, water elementalists never get their enhanced swim speeds, etc..

The point of the elementalist wizards is to gain dominion over a specific element, and cutting them off at 8 kinda screws that whole idea up...
.
.
.
.
.
As far as choosing cyclone over the final Air Elemental Supremacy power, I'm really not sure.

You might choose to make them separate consecutive Epic feats, as part of a feat tree.

I don't think they should necessarily be mutually exclusive though.


Just wondering if 1 or 2 Traits are acceptable in this system or if they go too far (+2CL i'm looking at you!)?

Also Fantastic work! I'm very excited to try this out. both as a player and DM i appreciate the simplicity. here magic is powerful, but it doesn't trump everything.

I will be building a Ranger soon. FullBaB, 2 good saves, feat access, tons of skills, etc...tasty

do you recommend any pointbuy for P6?


Increasing the spellcraft check by 5 allows the bypassing of CL prerequisites for some item creation. Does this threaten balance? should this rule be explicitly prohibited in P6?

not sure off the top of my head but a Wizard with skillfocus/items/other feats etc could get a pretty high spellcraft check...


JTibbs wrote:

8-10th level powers should definitely be looked through, as not all classes have equal advancement rates. Cutting some off at 8th is great, while cutting others off at 8 loses a lot of versatility in the class, essentially crippling the 'Elemental Supremacy' class feature. <snip> The point of the elementalist wizards is to gain dominion over a specific element, and cutting them off at 8 kinda screws that whole idea up...

Even looking through some of the 8th-10th level powers, this one sounds like too much.

3rd level spells are as powerful as it gets... and this allows casting one infinitely.

Granted their main thing isn't aerial supremacy, but in the core the 9th level bloodline powers for Celestial is to grow wings and fly for level minutes per day. Unlimited flying via wings doesn't show up for Draconic and Infernal bloodlines until 15th level. It seems like aerial supremacy should be in the ballpark for an air elemental bloodline sorcerer, but they also don't get unlmited flying until 15th level.

Does a fighter need a BAB of +8 or +9 to have the same level of mastery in combat? Should a cleric be able to take a 4th level spell (is that broken compared to infinitely cast a 3rd level one)?

P8 still sounds like the easiest solution to me.

Quote:

As far as choosing cyclone over the final Air Elemental Supremacy power, I'm really not sure.

You might choose to make them separate consecutive Epic feats, as part of a feat tree.

I don't think they should necessarily be mutually exclusive though.

Right now I've got it with one signature feat per character (so only one post 7th level power). Allowing two seems to up the power level quite a bit more in some cases (especially if 9th and 10th level powers are included) and again makes me wonder if P8 is the easiest solution.

All that being said, you've got seriously considering a supplement with options for powers beyond what I'm including in the standard P6 Codex - things like 9th and 10th level signature feats and multiple signature feats (and a thread elsewhere has me considering putting some gestalt rules in to such a supplement if I do one).


Sandbox wrote:

Just wondering if 1 or 2 Traits are acceptable in this system or if they go too far (+2CL i'm looking at you!)?

Also Fantastic work! I'm very excited to try this out. both as a player and DM i appreciate the simplicity. here magic is powerful, but it doesn't trump everything.

I will be building a Ranger soon. FullBaB, 2 good saves, feat access, tons of skills, etc...tasty

do you recommend any pointbuy for P6?

Thanks! I hope to have a revised-beta version out soon with a few fixed typos and a couple of minor fixes (greater skillfullness/expanded skill capacity, leadership, and what you mention later on) out soon.

My first reaction to traits is to find them a little power-creepy. But I can completely understand how they can be used to round out a character or add flavor. Are they worth the extra record keeping and step in character creation? Are they a way to try and force optimizers to at least think about the characters a bit? If I don't put them in the standard P6 Codex that I'm working on, I'll at least list them as one of the options that can be found in other books that people might want to add on (just like they are in the APG now).

I think point buy depends a lot on how the world is set-up and how much you want the players to stick out from the crowd. I kind of like 20. The ability increasing feats do allow the potential for all of them to go up by 2 eventually.

Sandbox wrote:

Increasing the spellcraft check by 5 allows the bypassing of CL prerequisites for some item creation. Does this threaten balance? should this rule be explicitly prohibited in P6?

not sure off the top of my head but a Wizard with skillfocus/items/other feats etc could get a pretty high spellcraft check...

I just saw a post on that last week in a thread on little known rules -- I'd missed it before. I'm currently leaning towards not allowing that for bypassing the item's caster level or spells outside what some P6 character could cast (so no to most spells that aren't 3rd for at least one of C,D,S/W). I'm also considering making the penalty depend on what level the skipped spell was.

I'll post the proposed revisions to get feedback before adding them in.


soo don't have a really good handle on the CR system myself...
in the upcoming codices, will there be a list of appropriate monsters for P6?

someone just needs to crunch through the beastiary 1...unfortunately it probably won't be me

also I'd like to propose merging Terrain Mastery with Unshakable Hunter...I really like the tracking stuff but i'm gonna choose Terrain Mastery everytime...there just seems like too many blah signature options for Ranger. The Choice between a Beefier animal companion and a Terrain Mastery that included swift tracker would be the sweetspot for me.

The Exchange

2 people marked this as a favorite.
JTibbs wrote:

Spellcasters are severely limited at 6th level... They have almost no offensive endurance.

Something would need to be done to enhance them, like sleep allow ing wizards to prepare spells a second time in a 24 hours period, or sorcerors spells regenerating over time.

A spell points system variation would work well.

Another variant would be making scrolls significantly cheaper. like allowing scrolls to be made from regular ink and paper.

1/8th of an ounce of ink, plus a sheet of paper costs 1.5GP... might work for a 1st level scroll.

Kinda the point of an E6/P6 campaign....limiting casters and removing excess attacks for martials. Pretty ridiculous to come to a thread about lowering the power of a game and complaining that the power level is low for a favorite class. Casters should carry a lot of scrolls and wands in this game if they are looking for offensive endurance.

The Exchange

JTibbs wrote:

hmm... going through all the feats of the P6, i can't seem to figure out how to get your Caster level to 8th so as to be able to take advantage of the feat that allows you to make +3 weapons.

Epic Caster will knock your caster level up to 7th, but there doesn't seem to be a way to knock it up to 8th here, unless im missing something.

If there isn't, then the epic weapon crafting feat to get +3 weapons seems pretty useless.

Arcane mastery only seems to work for your school power.

.
.
.
.
.
Other suggestions I'd have for a P6 system would be to redo the economy to be based is SP (silver pieces) instead of GP (gold pieces).

It would require re-pricing a lot of stuff, but it would make things a lot more functional, including the 1sp a day wage for untrained laborers. It would make them actually earn enough to LIVE then...

.
.
.
.
.
I'm also a litle upset it sorta nerfs elemental Arcane schools as well, seeing as you can never get the good Supremacy powers in them. At-Will fly ability for an Air Elementalist wizard is 10th level after all.

Please disregard this JrAnnalist. The bolded last sentence says it all. An E6/P6 game is about getting rid of the ridiculous stuff from the higher levels, such as at will flying, 4th level spells, excess iterative attacks, and all the stuff that causes headaches for GMs at higher levels. If someone wants to have all that stuff they can just play Pathfinder as normal, capping the game at 10th level or instituting their own E10/P10 rules. If you start playing an arms game then you defeat what E6/P6 should be.

Also a note on economy....switching to SP instead of GP really isn't necessary.

" right now the 1sp per day earned for basic laborers matches the 3gp/month cost of living needed for a Poor life lifestyle. That a poor room and poor meals cost 3sp per day could be a problem though."

The first sentence is about the cost of living needed for a poor lifestyle. That includes food, shelter, crappy clothes, etc. The second sentence is more about what a cheap motel room and some dollar menu grub at McDonalds would cost. A poor living wouldn't cover that constantly because it wouldn't cover that in real life either. I don't know anyone making minimum wage who can afford to live in a motel and eat Fast Food every day.

The Exchange

Sandbox wrote:

soo don't have a really good handle on the CR system myself...

in the upcoming codices, will there be a list of appropriate monsters for P6?

someone just needs to crunch through the beastiary 1...unfortunately it probably won't be me

also I'd like to propose merging Terrain Mastery with Unshakable Hunter...I really like the tracking stuff but i'm gonna choose Terrain Mastery everytime...there just seems like too many blah signature options for Ranger. The Choice between a Beefier animal companion and a Terrain Mastery that included swift tracker would be the sweetspot for me.

I believe that P6 would be like E6 in that monsters are gonna be the same. Any creatures of CR8-10 could be used on a group of 4 6th level PCs but would be very challenging. Higher CR stuff should be very rare and used with GM caution. So a Pit Fiend should never show up in a P6 game unless there is a story element (ritual or an artifact that can be broken, etc.) that can banish it and the PCs can use it.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

I'm probably going to use a large part of this for my efforts to write up an E8 ruleset for an upcoming campaign. I'm definitely keeping the notion of signature feats, though so far I haven't been able to find suitable options for all the classes. I also only did about a half-hour survey. And I'm considering switching down to E6. A big part of deciding that will be whether I feel it more important to give only full BAB the second attack, or to give 3/4 BAB characters an advantage over half BAB.

Rather than a list of appropriate monsters, it might be sensible to include a (partial) list of inappropriate monsters. Assume that anything of a CR up to 10th is suitable, though anything above 8 is very powerful... and then give some that are not suitable, and why, or how to modify them to be suitable. That allows a lot of flexibility.

For example, looking briefly at CR 10, the Monavic Deva looks pretty reasonable, but I would probably cut the plane shift to once or twice a day from at-will... or make it self-only at-will and with others once a day.

Many outsiders have at-will teleportation; generally this is self-only, but it still might not be suitable. If a creature can deliver a condition that can't be removed or healed without spells above 3rd level, such as ability drain, unless rituals exist as a way to recover.


Sandbox wrote:
in the upcoming codices, will there be a list of appropriate monsters for P6?

Once I've got the basic rules polished up, I was planning to add things like a list of all buildable magic items in the Core/Advanced/Ultimate books and soliciting reviews of appropriate modules with notes about any modifications that were needed. A monster list is a good idea and I'll definitely add that to the queue.

Sandbox wrote:
also I'd like to propose merging Terrain Mastery with Unshakable Hunter...I really like the tracking stuff but i'm gonna choose Terrain Mastery everytime...there just seems like too many blah signature options for Ranger. The Choice between a Beefier animal companion and a Terrain Mastery that included swift tracker would be the sweetspot for me.

I was wondering if people would think Unshakeable Hunter was too weak. Would combining it with Terrain Mastery be too much? What if the Unshakeable Hunter also included an additional +2 bonus on Survival rolls for tracking in your favored terrain (and maybe one other terrain of your choice). That way the feat would actually give you all of the tracking power a normal 8th level ranger would have (which was its intent) but would still leave Terrain Mastery as a distinct choice.

Fake Healer wrote:
If someone wants to have all that stuff they can just play Pathfinder as normal, capping the game at 10th level or instituting their own E10/P10 rules. If you start playing an arms game then you defeat what E6/P6 should be.

The limited power like I currently have it is definitely what I'm aiming for with the basic set of P6 Codex rules. Some other threads have me thinking that an eventual supplement with optional rules for gestalt advancement and a few selected 9th/10th level signature feats would be appreciated by some players though. (Depending on how much work it looks like it will be and if I can convince myself they wouldn't be better off just playing E8).

Fake Healer wrote:
The first sentence is about the cost of living needed for a poor lifestyle. That includes food, shelter, crappy clothes, etc. The second sentence is more about what a cheap motel room and some dollar menu grub at McDonalds would cost. A poor living wouldn't cover that constantly because it wouldn't cover that in real life either. I don't know anyone making minimum wage who can afford to live in a motel and eat Fast Food every day.

I'm picturing a shared common room and crappy meal from a dirty street corner vendor and haven't thought through if the 3x multiplier seemed too steep or not for not having a long-term arrangement to stay and cooking for ones-self. If nothing else, a sentence or two pointing that out for players who've never priced up cost of living might be helpful to point out why it looks like a discrepancy. (Thank goodness for ramen and bananas...). The amounts earned from the craft and profession feats seem a lot more problematic to me.

PhelanArcetus wrote:
I'm probably going to use a large part of this for my efforts to write up an E8 ruleset for an upcoming campaign. I'm definitely keeping the notion of signature feats, though so far I haven't been able to find suitable options for all the classes. I also only did about a half-hour survey. And I'm considering switching down to E6. A big part of deciding that will be whether I feel it more important to give only full BAB the second attack, or to give 3/4 BAB characters an advantage over half BAB.

I'll be interested to hear what you decide. For me the biggest decider was that the 4th level spells seemed a step too far for the feel I was going for and the hit-points/damage dealing of E8 separated the Epic characters too much from the lowest levels. A lot of posters in other threads on E6/E8 have visions where the 8th-10th level powers seem needed to give the world the feeling they're aiming for though.


-Maybe allow 1 Trait?
-don't nerf mundane crafting too hard...i'd still like to be able to craft up Mighty composite bows and fletch my own arrows.
-Unshakable hunter is a nice fluff option but the tracking doesn't have the same life or death combat benefit that terrain mastery offers, I'd still combine it with Terrain Mastery...Tracking is just icing on the ranger cake. Hell i'd just pop the bloodhound spell and gain scent+bonuses if i wanna track at that level.

-Watch out for Boon Companion feat...my ranger can rock an 8th level Wartrained Horse...


Any thoughts on tweaking any of the skill DC's?
Some DC's maybe too far out of reach with modifiers for even the most epic P6er's
Opposed DC's are usually ok...

Locks are pretty tough


Would you suggest rolling HP/MaxHP/or average HP for a P6 game?


Sandbox wrote:

-Maybe allow 1 Trait?

-don't nerf mundane crafting too hard...i'd still like to be able to craft up Mighty composite bows and fletch my own arrows.
-Watch out for Boon Companion feat...my ranger can rock an 8th level Wartrained Horse...

I think I'd just use the number of traits I'd use in any other game. I don't generally use them, but if you like one or two, that should be just fine. Two "half feats" shouldn't change a CR noticably.

Only change in craft skill I'm looking at so far is changing the amount earned by using it (the amounts don't make sense if level 1 is a journeyman and level 5 is a renowned master).

Hadn't seen Boon Companion - thanks for pointing it out!

Sandbox wrote:

Any thoughts on tweaking any of the skill DC's?

I wasn't planned on it (a 17 modifier by level 6 is pretty easy to get), but that still doesn't reach some difficulties. It might just be that things that hard shouldn't be used. I'll think about it more though.

Sandbox wrote:
Would you suggest rolling HP/MaxHP/or average HP for a P6 game?

I'm becoming less of a fan of rolling as the years go by. I'm planning on recommending what the society uses (7 for d12, 6 for d10, 5 for d8, 4 for d6), and that's mentioned in the current version of the greater toughness feat.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I use Max HD it makes the difference in hp more pronounced by level 6:

Barbarian: 72 (+ 6*Con Mod)
High: 60 (+6*Con Mod)
Medium: 48 (+6*Con Mod)
Low: 36 (+6*Con Mod)

As opposed to

Barbarian 42 (+6*Con Mod)
High: 36 (+6*Con Mod)
Medium: 30 (+6*Con Mod)
Low: 24 (+6*Con Mod)

Maximum Hp has multiple effects

1- Discourages 15 minute work day, since they can take more hits before the cleric needs to dip into the healing well.
2 - Allows characters to survive against the CR + 2 or +3 boss battles or particularly vicious critical hits.
3 - Removes randomness and adds specialness to something Martial classes NEED to shine: Hit points.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I use Max HD it makes the difference in hp more pronounced by level 6:

They'd still get max at first level (so another 2-5 points depending on type) and have the option of getting the one from favored class and/or from toughness. Taking one of those two bonuses would be 53/46/39/32 + 6*con modifier. But that's still noticably lower than getting max for all and doesn't really change your points that much for the Barbarian and d10 types.

Growing up with B/X/1e the need to stop and camp has never really bothered me, but I completely understand why it could be really annoying. But having the 6th level characters be too far past the 3rd or 1st level ones would really change the feel in some settings too (108 hp at 6th level with an 18 con). I still prefer the lower total, but I'll rethink how I want to present it to account for the style of play they want.

Does it make it too easy for them to survive the boss battles? Wanting to be able to survive something swingy like criticals gives me more pause.


Jr. Annalist wrote:

Sandbox wrote:

Any thoughts on tweaking any of the skill DC's?

I wasn't planned on it (a 17 modifier by level 6 is pretty easy to get), but that still doesn't reach some difficulties. It might just be that things that hard shouldn't be used. I'll think about it more though.

Maybe see what is achievable by a rogue optimized for lock picking and set the highest DC's around that?


I love Traits for the sake of campaign hooks or backstory.
I don't like munchkining with traits...but some times you really need those 2 CL!


Being a huge fan of E6, I'm delighted to see a serious attempt at a pathfinder version. Having toyed quite a lot with E6/P6 innards (I have an incomplete attempt somewhere), here's a few comments :

1) The idea of Signature feats is excellent, but given the power discrepancy between some of them, this needs a bit more work. Maybe one feat every five epic ranks ?
Otherwise, I don't see any Fighter taking greater weapon focus instead of Improved Critical very often, or a Paladin choosing Intrinsic Bond instead of Aura of Resolve.

2) Speaking of Intrinsic Bond : it's broken for Druids, allowing them access to 7th level Large Animal Companions. Buffed Large Cat pouncers with 7 HD and 23/24 Str will make every martials very very sad. With the Boon Companion feat around, it could be broken for everyone with access to an animal companion. (making all martials even more sad. Except the ranger, now prancing around happily in forests alongside sylvan sorcerers and druids)
Greater Bond is the other way around. Compared to Boon Companion (which admittedly isn't core, but damn tempting), it's absolutely useless for animal companions, and only useful for familiars (Speak with kinds, and Impr. Familiar has a lot of choices at CL 7th).
From a design standpoint, this is annoying to solve. Removing Intrinsic Bond forces us to create a separate feat for every capacity that should work at 8th level (Paladin's enhanced Weapon, etc), which is way less elegant. Keeping it means rewording several other things. (Druid's AC, etc).
A possible "simple" solution would be to include the familiar @CL7th in the Epic Caster Feat (it fits thematically and isn't a major power up), specifically introduce Boon Companion as an (Epic ?) feat, and reword Intrinsic Bond to not apply to animal companion.

3) The Rogue at the very least (but possibly other 3/4 BAB classes) absolutely needs something to help it in the Two Weapon Fighting department. In a P6 context, its otherwise even more useless for them than in standard PF. If I recall correctly the bunch of calculations I did, I think a feat reducing penalty by one while TWF was sufficient.

4) There's a very annoying amount of Feats (mostly for combat maneuvers) with a BAB +6 prerequisite, making them lie on the wrong side of the fence for 3/4 BAB characters. This is made worse by the fact that a huge number of said feats would be thematically appropriate (no Greater Dirty Fighting for your Rogue, nor Greater Grapple for your Monk, for example)
One way to solve (if desirable, but my feeling is it's worth the time) this problem would be to create a follow-up of Combat Improvement allowing access to feats with a BAB prerequisite of your BAB +1. This would give a power up to martial classes as well, unless worded to cap at BAB +6, and has other interesting side effects that may be a bit hard to balance properly, however.

5) I'm really not sure Greater Skillfullness/Toughness needs the wording hassle and confusion that comes with a cap. Even though making those feats too good risks making them mandatory, I'm firmly in the "simple is best" camp.

6) There's a lot of minor other points that would fall more under editing/streamlining/minor balancing rather than real concerns. If interested, let me know.

Overall, I really like the power point you seem to be aiming for. I've always been deeply impressed by the sheer elegance of the cutoff point in original E6 (almost everything rounded favorably at that level, for all classes), but the way Pathfinder classes work makes quite a bit of that feeling lost. I think your proposed rules solve most of the temptation of going "too far" into E8 territory while retaining interesting options for every classes. It may needs a bit more iterating here and there, but it definitely stands strong and coherent as it is already. Well done.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Jr. Annalist wrote:


I'll be interested to hear what you decide. For me the biggest decider was that the 4th level spells seemed a step too far for the feel I was going for and the hit-points/damage dealing of E8 separated the Epic characters too much from the lowest levels. A lot of posters in other threads on E6/E8 have visions where the 8th-10th level powers seem needed to give the world the feeling they're aiming for though.

When I first thought about it, my reasoning was largely as follows:


  • A lot of PF classes have a nice feature at level 8, which makes for a nice built-in capstone, before I get into epic feats.
  • I was liking the idea of giving 3/4 BAB characters a second attack, which I think was largely biased by how much I like the Magus. It felt more important to me to differentiate the 3/4 BAB from the 1/2 BAB than to differentiate the full BAB from the 3/4 BAB.
  • I surveyed the 4th level spells fairly briefly, and didn't see anything that I anticipated causing major problems, especially given the rarity of people capable of casting those spells.

Now, however, I'm leaning more towards the 6th level cap; there's far more material available for me to steal, and I think I do prefer differentiating full BAB from 3/4 BAB. There definitely were not any 4th level spells I saw as must-haves.

In addition, I did a brief survey of the classes for suitable signature feats based on the premise of reaching 8th level normally, and for quite a few classes, I didn't see anything without going to relative game changers at 10th or 11th level.

If the next thing I do is a mythic & E6/E8 version of Reign of Winter, I will do E8 for that, because it reduces how much I need to adjust the modules. However, if I delay that, which is looking likely, then I suspect that when I do run it, it will be E6 instead.

Grand Lodge

Loving the continuing work.

In discussion of the "best" cutoff I like E7/P7 as the cut off. BAB 1/2 stops +3, BAB 3/4 +5 etc

the Level 7 spell becomes a free floating spell slot like the wizards arcane spell focus or can be used to support a metamagic feat application.

1 to 50 of 199 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Homebrew / P6 Codex - E6+Pathfinder All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.