Does the PFS reroll shirt need to be a shirt?

[Raymond Lambert]

I am proud to own my Chelaxian shirt. I did nit want it to get worn out or have to wash it every week like clockwork for the next game. I was happy to put it on the table. In cold environments like cons with high AC or businesses with no heat in the winter, I would sometimes put it on my head.

I disgruntledly put it over my real shirt for a slot at a con when I knew I would not have the reroll without it being worn. The AC was strong enough, I did not over.heat as I feared I would. I was very tempted to constantly pull the shirt off and place it back on whenever rolling was needed but knew that would not just be spiteful to the DM but also steal time away from.the players. I disdained the expectation at a con back when there was no folio and I would have had to buy several.shirts or.waste time/money every night washing it.

I bought the folio not just to avoid arguments. So far only one GM was a problem. I also bought it to support the company that gives me a game that I love. We have to buy product every now and.again if we expect them to continue producing material.

I do.not have the money now, not while I have a perfectly good for.a.refill folio, but in the future, I would love to.see patches we.can place on our sleeve or back. I also prefer polo shirts but even while closing in On 2 DM STARS, I am not a venture.officier nor do.I have any asperations to become one.

[Themes86]

Raymond Lambert wrote:

I also prefer polo shirts but even while closing in On 2 DM STARS, I am not a venture officier nor do I have any asperations to become one.

I could dig some polo shirts. I love my original goblin song T-Shirt and wear as often as I can, a polo shirt, one with pocket maybe, would be a great addition to the pathfinder line of shirts.

[Azothath]

I'm actually posting to this thread... lol...

Brock has been accommodating and said you can sew the logo onto another shirt.

We all know what a shirt IS and how to wear it, but yes, if you;
ask first, have a reason (your shirt may be stinky/too small/or whatever)
are desperate and willing to throw it over your shoulder for the game,
I should think reasonable GM's would give you a reroll for "wearing" it.

but for the rule sticklers you should at least offer to partially disrobe and don the shirt in mid game if they insist on you wearing it properly (lol...). Modesty isn't in the RAW.

[FLite]

I am still pushing for "You must either wear the shirt or fly it as a banner." I really want to see more banners.

[nosig]

It all boils down to what the judge at the table wants.

If he requires you to have the Folio filled out with the PC you are playing (I have encountered this once) - well, he's the judge isn't he?

If he requires you to wear the shirt "normal mode", for the entire time you are at the table, - well, he's the judge isn't he?

It would be best if you checked before the game started, in as respectful a way as possible, to see what the judge requires, and do it his way. Whatever he says. He's the authority at his table. That way, if you can't do it his way, you know at the start and can adapt as needed (skipping your re-rolls or just excuse yourself from the table before the game starts if you need to).

The only real problem here that I can see would be if you think it works one way and it doesn't... which is what YMMV is all about.

[Muja]

Netopalis wrote:

(Note: My previous post was being *entirely* sarcastic. The point remains, though, that there isn't much good coming out of strict enforcement of the shirt rule.)

lol thanks for pointing that out. I was sighing and thinking "really...?" when I read it. In my defense I was just in an argument yesterday about how you don't need eyes to see because we can imagine things.

[Fake Healer]

Netopalis wrote:

Shirt is an undefined term - can we really fault players for not understanding exactly what is meant by a shirt?

Furthermore, what about a shirt worn as a hat? It's still a shirt, but it is not currently functioning as a shirt. It is being worn, so it would fit the definition in the guide. What if I decide to wear my shirt under another shirt? Certainly fits the guide description.

What is gained through strict enforcement of this rule?

Where you on Bill Clinton's legal team during the Monica Lewinsky scandal....? Just askin'.

[Netopalis]

Nosig: Campaign staff has said that the folio doesn't need to be filled out. A GM can be less restrictive than what the campaign allows, but not more.

[Chris Mortika]

Agree with Netopolis. I'm guessing your GM was confused on the point, nosig.

[nosig]

Netopalis wrote:

Nosig: Campaign staff has said that the folio doesn't need to be filled out. A GM can be less restrictive than what the campaign allows, but not more.

I am not the type of person to argue with the judge at the table.

It wastes my time, his time, and worst of all, 3 to 5 other peoples time for me to try to do so... If the judge tells me that I can't do XXX I might discuss it with him after the game, when we have the time.

On the boards? SURE! that's what they are for.

So, to me, in my opinion as a judge, if you come up and say...
"I've got a folio - so I can get a re-roll, right?"
or
You have a shirt that I recognize as valid (or someone else says is valid or heck, that you even ACT like it is valid), even if you pull it out of a bag and it's still in the little triangle shrink wrap,
or
some other wierd thing... ("...these little scraps of cloth are all that remain from the shirt the para-medics cut off of me last year...")

I'll give you a re-roll.

(It's better then the guy who rolls a dice I can't read if my life depended on it, and picks it up and counts to himself for 10 seconds before anouncing a number - "I rolled a nat 20").

[nosig]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Agree with Netopolis. I'm guessing your GM was confused on the point, nosig.

Chris - I again state.

It's his table.

Just like when I'm at your table, and my Faction shirt is clearly displayed on my rolling case - and not on my body - I am not even going to ask for the re-roll. No need to request it. You've stated your requirements, I don't fit them. I'm not wearing the shirt, so no re-roll.

[Netopalis]

Well, I'm not saying I'd get into a big argument over it at the table - but I probably would bring it up with the GM afterwards and try to politely point out their mistake. When I have done this, most GMs have been happy for the help, and I am always very open to people correcting me, for I know that my rules knowledge is far from perfect.

[Patrick Harris @ MU]

nosig wrote:

It's his table.

But it's not his campaign.

Mike Brock said I don't have to write my character on the paper in the portfolio. If someone denies me my roll because I don't have my character written on the paper in the portfolio, he's mistaken, and I'll tell him that. If he doesn't believe me, I'll pull up the thread. It doesn't have to be an argument; I get can the thread on my phone in a matter of seconds. But I paid for my portfolio so that I could get a reroll, and I did it only after I was told that I didn't have to be writing in the damn thing.

(Hell, I don't even have a print sheet; I use the Hero Lab iPad app now that it's out.)

If he still refuses to honor the reroll that I bought this product specifically to get, we'll finish the game, and then I'll report him to the store coordinator/VO/M.B. as appropriate, because you don't get to just make up rules as a PFS GM.

(And if I or one of my party members die as a result of being denied a legal reroll, holy crap, you'll be able to hear the yelling.)

[Silh]

While I have not had this problem before it's a little more than discouraging that a GM would be such a jerk to not allow someone a re-roll simply because they are not wearing a shirt but show it is visible and authentic.

I guess people in those situations could peel off whatever shirt they are wearing, put on whatever shirt they have on hand, make the roll, and then swap the shirts again. If you can see the shirt, why not let them re-roll? And unless Paizo is going to make it more apparent that the faction shirts are symbols from pathfinder, chances are no one is going to ask what they are and research. For sake of ease, if I ever run a table and someone provides a shirt but currently are not wearing it, I'd let them re-roll a d20. It's easier on everyone and doesn't cause any problems.

That is the beauty of GMing tables though, you can be flexible on something like this and not distract the entire table, or get branded as a jerk. But with Mike Brock stating that a cut-out of the symbol (if the shirt is damaged) is perfectly ok for a re-roll what is the problem just having the shirt present? I think some people get a rush off that kind of authority. *shrug* Players spent money to help this company out. No reason to deny them something because a GM wants to be picky. (Also, Paizo could just change the wording too).

Edit- I want to make it very clear that I am speaking generally and not posting in reply to any story or comments I have seen on this thread but the overall idea behind this topic.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:

nosig wrote:

It's his table.

But it's not his campaign.

Mike Brock said I don't have to write my character on the paper in the portfolio. If someone denies me my roll because I don't have my character written on the paper in the portfolio, he's mistaken, and I'll tell him that. If he doesn't believe me, I'll pull up the thread. If he still refuses to honor it, we'll finish the game, and then I'll report him to the store coordinator/VO/M.B. as appropriate, because you don't get to just make up rules as a PFS GM.

(And if I or one of my party members die as a result of being denied a legal reroll, holy crap, you'll be able to hear the yelling.)

I wanted to address this particular post.

Yes, you have every right to correct the GM, show him where you found the ruling, and what not.

But this is a game folks.

If a game gets you so riled up (whether someone else is right or wrong, or not) that you feel the need to start shouting at them… then perhaps the hobby isn’t for you. Seriously.

GM’s aren’t perfect, and sometimes they misunderstand things. And if a GM tells me that we don’t have time to look it up, then I’ll let it go. If I die because he wouldn’t let me look it up, I’ll suck it up, and then wait till after the scenario and ask him to rescind the death. If he feels it would have ended in a death anyways, I’ll suck it up and move on.

It’s a game.

[Silh]

FLite wrote:

I am still pushing for "You must either wear the shirt or fly it as a banner." I really want to see more banners.

If paizo makes banners, I would buy one in a heartbeat!

[Azothath]

Silh wrote:

FLite wrote:

I am still pushing for "You must either wear the shirt or fly it as a banner." I really want to see more banners.

If paizo makes banners, I would buy one in a heartbeat!

I'd rather see gamers wearing shirts than brandishing banners on sticks...

[Todd Lower]

Stephen Ross wrote:

Silh wrote:

FLite wrote:

I am still pushing for "You must either wear the shirt or fly it as a banner." I really want to see more banners.

If paizo makes banners, I would buy one in a heartbeat!

I'd rather see gamers wearing shirts than brandishing banners on sticks...

I vote for more weapons at all Pathfinder tables. :-)

[Armenfrast]

Paizo should make their T Shirts more solid.

I am still wearing, from time to time, my "I killed in the Temple Of Elemental Evil" T-shirt, after all these years.

[Kurthnaga]

RtrnofdMax wrote:

Netopalis wrote:

What is a backpack, truly, but a shirt that holds things? What is bandana, but a shirt worn on the head? What is a binder, but a shirt for your character sheets?

Seems to me it would be a simple mod to make my shirt into a sash. I could even clip my PFS card to it so all could bask in the glory of my star.

I would like to point out that in this situation you would still be wearing the shirt, so per RAW, yes this would be allowable and give you a reroll.

[chris szymanski]

Chris what is the folio?
I have a few T-shirts.
There is the "new rule about having a PFS card in hand ...

BTW i have palyed a bunch at Chris' Tables he is a Fair GM strict but Fair :) see you in a few ... HOURS WOOT

[Mike Mistele]

chris szymanski wrote:

Chris what is the folio?

I'm not Chris, but the folio in question is the Pathfinder Character Folio.

[Todd Lower]

chris szymanski wrote:

Chris what is the folio?

I have a few T-shirts.
There is the "new rule about having a PFS card in hand ...

BTW i have palyed a bunch at Chris' Tables he is a Fair GM strict but Fair :) see you in a few ... HOURS WOOT

When you use a folio or T-shirt if you can produce your Society ID card, you will receive a bonus to the re-roll of +1 per star. In my case that is +4. :-) WOOT, WOOT, WOOT, WOOT.

P.S. See what I did there. 4 woots. :-)

[Silh]

Stephen Ross wrote:

Silh wrote:

FLite wrote:

I am still pushing for "You must either wear the shirt or fly it as a banner." I really want to see more banners.

If paizo makes banners, I would buy one in a heartbeat!

I'd rather see gamers wearing shirts than brandishing banners on sticks...

Shirt or banner, it would still be advertising.

[Jason Wu]

Technically, if I have a back-mounted banner, would that be "wearing" it?

-j

[Martin Misthawk]

Netopalis wrote:

What is gained through strict enforcement of this rule?

The chance to prove to new PFS players that Society GMs are total a**hats and maybe they should play another game... so exactly nothing. ;) It is counterproductive, in fact.

[littlehewy]

Martin Misthawk wrote:

Netopalis wrote:

What is gained through strict enforcement of this rule?

The chance to prove to new PFS players that Society GMs are total a**hats and maybe they should play another game... so exactly nothing. ;) It is counterproductive, in fact.

Yep.

A year ago I was completely scared off of PFS after reading some of the threads here, what with the nitpicking, whining, and general sense of taking a game far too seriously. Time, however, is a healer, and I've been very close to going along to a game for weeks now, reassuring myself that the side of PFS that is displayed on the boards here must be just a vocal minority. And, I'm desperate not to be the GM in a face to face game!

Then I made the mistake of reading this thread, which is arguing the rules of having to wear a t-shirt or not, and around post 3 or 4 has a 5-star GM saying, "Nuh-uh, no reroll at my table if it's so worn out you can't wear it." (Way to reward a guy who's advertised with his clothes so much that they're falling off his body!)

Seriously, you guys are your own worst enemies. Enjoy your rules lawyering over t-shirts.

Sincerely,
Another potential but ultimately dissuaded player...

[Darkenn]

I forgot where I saw it but it was posted in her buy one of the paizo employees that due to hygene issues at cons you did NOT have to be wearing your shirt to get the reroll, Ill try to find the post.

[Paz]

littlehewy wrote:

A year ago I was completely scared off of PFS after reading some of the threads here

Bear in mind that a lot of the rules debates happen here so people don't have to have them at the table. Also, the regulars on this forum represent a tiny percentage of PFS players & GMs.

I suggest you try a PFS game before you discount it completely. The worst that can happen is that you lose a few hours (the same as seeing a bad movie, or watching your team lose), but you'll probably end up enjoying it.

[brock, no the other one...]

littlehewy wrote:

Another potential but ultimately dissuaded player...

The fighty, b~~%@y, obstreperous, argumentative, whiny section of the community is, by and large, over represented.

I can say that I've never been at a PFS table with anyone less than pleasant in the UK, and the vast majority of PFS players that I've met have become personal friends.

The number of stars next to someone's name should also not be taken as any measure of weight or quality of opinion.

Come and play.

[Cire]

Obstreperous! Good word.