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So I bought my Cheliax shirt way back when and the ol' beefy-T is not really holding up any more. One sleeve is threatening to secede from the rest of the shirt and any day now I will be handing out free tickets to the gun show. Can I trim the logo off of the front of the shirt and carry that around as my reroll item? I can't see the value in carrying the entire busted shirt around.
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So I bought my Cheliax shirt way back when and the ol' beefy-T is not really holding up any more. One sleeve is threatening to secede from the rest of the shirt and any day now I will be handing out free tickets to the gun show. Can I trim the logo off of the front of the shirt and carry that around as my reroll item? I can't see the value in carrying the entire busted shirt around.
I may be remembering the details wrong, but I'm pretty sure there was a past thread where they approved the idea of cutting off the logo and attaching it to something else. I think it would be pretty cool to put something like that on a backpack or other bag of Pathfinder gear, so you always have it with you.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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RAW, it's for the shirt, not just a portion of it. Might be worth investing in another one (or a portfolio).
RAW, yes, but we should reward this guy for wearing his shirt this much, I think. Do we really need to be such sticklers about EVERYTHING?
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Lets keep in mind, that telling someone to purchase another shirt really isn't an option, as almost all the shirts are out of stock.
If you have a shirt, that isn't really appropriate to be worn anymore, then I'd say you could do whatever you needed to, to make it appropriate.
Venture-Agent, Texas—Houston
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Mike has stated that the appropriate logo must be worn on a shirt. However, he specified in reply 50 in this thread that it need not be the original shirt. You are free to cut out the logo and sew it onto a shirt in better condition.
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What is a backpack, truly, but a shirt that holds things? What is bandana, but a shirt worn on the head? What is a binder, but a shirt for your character sheets?
Seems to me it would be a simple mod to make my shirt into a sash. I could even clip my PFS card to it so all could bask in the glory of my star.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Shirt is an undefined term - can we really fault players for not understanding exactly what is meant by a shirt?
Furthermore, what about a shirt worn as a hat? It's still a shirt, but it is not currently functioning as a shirt. It is being worn, so it would fit the definition in the guide. What if I decide to wear my shirt under another shirt? Certainly fits the guide description.
What is gained through strict enforcement of this rule?
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Shirt is an undefined term - can we really fault players for not understanding exactly what is meant by a shirt?
I'm sorry. When I tell my 4 year old nephew to go put on a shirt, even he knows that it is something covers his bare chest and has a couple of arm holes in it. It may not be specifically defined, but it is a term of common usage in the English language and should not need to be.
There's a reason you call it a backpack, instead of a shirt. Backpack has its own connotation, and shirt is something completely different.
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What is gained through strict enforcement of this rule?
I can answer this though.
1) Nothing but aggravated players.
Doubt anyone remembers, but I posted after Gen Con last year about a guy who had his shirt at the table but wasn't wearing. He wanted to use it for a reroll but was denied. The reason mostly given was that we are advertising PFS to people who haven't played. Perhaps I was blind, but I really don't remember random people wandering in from the halls and standing watching a table play. I look forward to watching in Sagamore this year to see this happens.
TL/DR IMO denying this someone who actually spent money to buy a shirt that you wouldn't wear anywhere else seems rather jerkish.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Shirt is an undefined term - can we really fault players for not understanding exactly what is meant by a shirt?
Yep. Also, Paizo shotglasses don't count as re-roll shirts. Paizo purple dice don't count as re-roll shirts. Paizo "Dragon magazine" shirts don't count for re-rolls. (I've had con players try to get away with all these at my table. If I seem a little by-the-book, it's because I keep pushing back against people trying to expand the re-roll rules.)
If Mike or John want to revise the campaign rule so that it's "everybody gets a re-roll, every game", then I'll follow that. Right now, the rule is: a shirt, worn, or a character folio, on the table. You can get along perfectly fine without a reroll. If you want one, meet one of the criteria.
Furthermore, what about a shirt worn as a hat? It's still a shirt, but it is not currently functioning as a shirt. It is being worn, so it would fit the definition in the guide.
My parents tried to install in me a common-sense understanding of what it means to "wear a shirt". People usually figure this out this by about age 3 or 4. If you walk into a restaurant wearing nothing above the waist except a shirt plopped on top of your head, see if the staff will seat you.
If you don't understand that, don't expect to re-roll any d20 results at my table.
What if I decide to wear my shirt under another shirt? Certainly fits the guide description.
No, it does not. It defeats the purpose of showing the folks at a convention how popular Pathfinder is. {b]EDIT[/b] Faction shirts, or Grey Maiden shirts, don't scream 'Pathfinder'. That's okay. If someone asks, you can tell them about why Cheliax is the cool faction. If they already know about it, then it serves as marketing, just fine.
Honestly, this all strikes me as trying to game the system with technicalities. I would just as readily object to a GM who claims: "Well, you're using electronic 'dice', so you're not actually 'rolling' a d20' and you aren't eligible for a re-roll." or "You've got your folio on top of your rulebook. It needs to be 'on the table'. No re-roll."
What is gained through strict enforcement of this rule?
Marketing for Paizo. And, come to think of it, establishing an atmosphere of common sense expectations that everybody, GM and player alike, follow the rules.
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I can certainly see turning a dilapidated faction shirt into a banner attached to a staff at a convention or something. Especially if your dressing up in character!
As for wearing a shirt, really? I certainly wear mine when at a convention, but when I am going to game night at the local FLGS and I have just enough time to get to the store after work, I carry it in with my gaming supplies and lay it on the back of my chair. That also holds true for day two of the convention. Definite need to wear a fresh T-shirt on day two.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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How do you even know any given shirt is authentic? Its easy enough to get a t-shirt made (copyright violations aside).
It's not even a copyright violation if they follow the community use policy. (But a handmade shirt doesn't qualify for a re-roll, despite it being super-cool.)
If a player makes a counterfeit shirt and it gets past me, woo hoo, he fooled me.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Chris: Marketing for Paizo? Frankly, to me, PFS' biggest hurdle right now is the reputation that it has for being full of rules lawyers who insist on restricting interesting character builds. I disagree with that characterization, obviously, but don't you think that this sort of attitude contributes to it?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Honestly, Netopalis, no. I think that there's a distinction between "limited rule-set" and "following the rules we have."
I realize that the following response could be read with a snide undertone, but that's not my intention: my sense is that a more serious problem is the perception on the part of some one-time players that PFS GMs either (a) don't know the rules very well, or (b) are willing to bend the rules, adding or toughening encounters, or hosing player abilities, in the name of "making encounters dramatic".
And honestly, an open discussion of "I'm not out to beat you, I'm here so that we all have a good time according to the rules, and here's what the rules are" helps ameliorate that concern. I'm not going to bend the rules to screw my players, and I hope they follow suit. Shirts worn on the head, or Matthew Morris' threats to wear his Andoran thong, run counter to the spirit.
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So this was never my intention for this thread, but since you're hitting on one of my peeves about the campaign, I will pile on.
The encouragement is to use common sense. But since the guide doesn't tell you what common sense is, or how you're allowed to use it, many just don't.
Guide says you must wear the shirt. You must wear the shirt. G'forbid you decide that possession is enough. That just wouldn't make sense.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I don't take any snide readings from your post, Chris. I do, however, think that there are a lot of PFS players who get very frustrated at the number of rules for rules' sake. It turns a lot of players off from the game when they are in their FLGS and watch PFS, only to have a big argument come up over whether or not somebody is "wearing" their shirt, or whether or not it's legal to have a table of 7 1-5s and a table of 5 5-9s at the same event without moving one of the 1-5s over to the 5-9 (an actual argument that I have had.) The more rules and restrictions that we place on these things, the less intuitive it becomes and the more it looks like PFS is a club for people who enjoy rules arguments.
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I've seen Chris be a reasonable fellow in person.
One fellow had "outgrown" his shirt.
Chris allowed him a reroll (which he promptly failed a 2nd time) because he had the shirt, he just physically couldn't wear it.
But yeah... the rule says you gotta wear the shirt.
Yanking it outta your bag at the last moment isn't really kosher.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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One fellow had "outgrown" his shirt.
Chris allowed him a reroll (which he promptly failed a 2nd time) because he had the shirt, he just physically couldn't wear it.
Thanks, Andy. That' a known corner case. The campaign staff say it's cool, and I'm happy to comply.
(GM donating his re-roll to the table? Another corner case ruling, also happy to oblige.)
Most cases I've seen where players have "arguments with the GM about enforcing rules" happens when a bunch of players have gotten used to not having to follow the rules and are then surprised when one GM requires them to (a) have brought their Chronicles, (b) wear the re-roll shirt, (c) have their additional resources handy, or (d) follow some other rule.
The more relaxed the environment (a home PFS campaign or pre-convention play-test of a scenario, versus a game day or convention) the more relaxed I am about some rules. But I understand that every time I tell a player not to worry about a rule, I build up that player's expectations that PFS doesn't really follow that rule, and I make it harder for that player and some other GM when he's eventually called on it.
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That' a known corner case. The campaign staff say it's cool, and I'm happy to comply.One fellow had "outgrown" his shirt.
Chris allowed him a reroll (which he promptly failed a 2nd time) because he had the shirt, he just physically couldn't wear it.
So if my shirt is new, and I'm too fat* to wear it, I get the reroll ... but if the shirt still fits but can't be worn because it's falling apart, I don't?
* Disclaimer: I am fat, "fat" is not a dirty word, don't make me link to fat activist movements, blah blah blah. It's what we're discussing; call it what it is.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I feel like if your shirt is that old, and that worn, you have proven your devotion to the game, which is what this is all about anyway, right? As long as it is on display, I'm good with it. Though I would give extra style points if you converted it into a war banner, tattered and torn and splattered with gore. (Okay, the splattered with gore is optional.)
(PS: so if you want to get the reroll, and not wear the shirt, all you have to do is buy a child size?)
I don't take any snide readings from your post, Chris. I do, however, think that there are a lot of PFS players who get very frustrated at the number of rules for rules' sake. It turns a lot of players off from the game when they are in their FLGS and watch PFS, only to have a big argument come up over whether or not somebody is "wearing" their shirt, or whether or not it's legal to have a table of 7 1-5s and a table of 5 5-9s at the same event without moving one of the 1-5s over to the 5-9 (an actual argument that I have had.) The more rules and restrictions that we place on these things, the less intuitive it becomes and the more it looks like PFS is a club for people who enjoy rules arguments.
That is absolutely true. Half of PFS is just arguing about the rules. It's very frustrating as a player. I understand that this is the way it is and there is really no avoiding it, but it is frustrating none the less.
the other half is crazy fun and good times
okay now I need to go attach cover sheets to my ITS reports or mike brock will take away my red swingline stapleri am just kidding mike brock
thank you for working hard and makings things pretty dang good
That is also true.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Not at my table, no. Follow the rules: shirt, worn, or portfolio, on the table.Do you mind if we stink at your table because of a smelly shirt worn over the period of a con?
If that's what passes for civilized behavior where you're from, I guess I'll keep my opinions to myself.
If it were up to me, I'd invest in a folio, or maybe a couple dollars to use the hotel's laundry. Or I'd think that the comfort of my table-mates might be more important than a re-roll.
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Why not just state you want to use your reroll, put the shirt on overtop of what you have, roll away, then take it off. Does it specify the shirt has to be worn the entire session by RAW? If a GM told me I couldn't use my reroll because I wasn't wearin my shirt, I'd just put it on right then and there. Adapt, overcome, problem solve.
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I'd push for revising this rule for one reason.
Player creativity in displaying their Pathfinder logo in another format only causes people to come up and say "where did you get that awesome X". That causes a discussion that may not have otherwise involved Pathfinder. It's still shown prominently (for advertising purposes), and it meets the spirit of the rule.
Case in point. I've considered (if my sewing skills were actually up to snuff) taking my too-large Andoran shirt, cutting out the logo, and making a big "You're getting bard song" banner for my Andoran bard which I'd pull out and hold whenever bard song was active. If somebody did that at my table (or something like that), I'd sure as hell give him/her the reroll.
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Not at my table, no. Follow the rules: shirt, worn, or portfolio, on the table.Do you mind if we stink at your table because of a smelly shirt worn over the period of a con?If that's what passes for civilized behavior where you're from, I guess I'll keep my opinions to myself.
If it were up to me, I'd invest in a folio, or maybe a couple dollars to use the hotel's laundry. Or I'd think that the comfort of my table-mates might be more important than a re-roll.
You've misunderstood - what passes in my area is the ability to display the shirt, whether it's worn or not. That's what this whole thread is about (no pun intended).
But you're suggesting either deal with the shirt in whatever condition it's in, or buy a folio - with no leniency? I mean, does that not sound absurd to you?
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Why not just state you want to use your reroll, put the shirt on overtop of what you have, roll away, then take it off. Does it specify the shirt has to be worn the entire session by RAW? If a GM told me I couldn't use my reroll because I wasn't wearin my shirt, I'd just put it on right then and there. Adapt, overcome, problem solve.
The intent is that the shirt is helping to advertise pathfinder and PFS. A small shirt turned into a large hat put on ones head all day does that better than a shirt worn for 15 seconds.