Yeah Ciretose post a build!
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Ok. Mostly stealing Nicos :)
Stunning monk
Human (dual talent)
Quinngong Monk 10
=== Stats ===
Str 20 (22),Dex 12,con 14(16),Int 10,Wis 16(20), Cha 8.
=== Defense ===
AC: 21* (+2 armor, +1 dex, +1 dodge, +5 wis +2 insight)
25 with Barskin
Hp: 88 (10d8+40)
CMD: 28
=== Saves ===
Fort: +11
Ref : +10 (Plus Improved evasion)
Will: +13
=== Attacks ===
Standard attack
Unarmed +16 (1d10+8 19-20 x2)
Flurry of blows +17/+15/+10/+10 (1d10 +8 19-20 x2)
Haste +19/+19/+15/+10/+10 (1d10+8 19/20 x2)
Haste and Ki +19/+19/+19/+15/+10/+10 (1d10+8 19/20 x2)
CMB: +21
=== Traits===
+1 Will, +1 reflex
=== Feats===
1. Dodge, Toughness
2. Deflect Arrows
3. Weapon focus (Unarmed)
5. Power attack
6. Mobility
7. Mantis style
9. Mantis Wisdom
10. Medusa wrath
=== Skills ===
=== Special ===
Stunning fist ( 11/day, DC 21)
Improved evasion
Inmunity to disease
Ki pool (10/day)
Ki abilities (Barskin)
=== Gear ===
+2 Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (16,000)
+2 Belt of physical might (str, con) (10,000)
+4 Heaband of wis 16,000)
+2 Bracer of armor 4000
+1 Ring of protection 2000
+1 Clock of resistance 1000
Books of Speed 12000
Unarmed, this is a trick build. If stunning fist works I can get up to 8 attacks with Medusa's wrath. I would use furious focus and stunning fist on the first attack and go from there.
Basically 10 times a day I have haste and if I need it I can burn a ki as a swift for another attack.
Feel free to correct where I messed up, like I said I stole Nico's build an edited. I really need to get hero lab :)
Does Proftrobe think I won't post a build one of these times? :)
Where's the 1-20 progression with gear per level!?
I'll go level for level if someone else goes with me. Every time I've tried the other person bailed for one reason or another.Does Proftrobe think I won't post a build one of these times? :)Where's the 1-20 progression with gear per level!?
Weak! You should post builds without requiring that other people post builds, then as the discussion continues you can be like, "My build does X" and when someone says, "My build does Y", you be like "POST IT, I have. LOOK AT HOW MORE LEGIT I AM!!!!!"
I think "it won't work in all situations" is an intelligent counter argument when the character has no backup. Since the monk does, let's look at what happens when shurikens do work. At 12th level, you get 5 attacks. If you've got a +4 modifier on your attack (perhaps due to strength), then that is 5d2+20. Of course, the monk is immune to disease and poison, so he could use Viridium shurikens (five attacks a round, failing a fortitude save on a natural "1" is going to happen). As for damage resistance, carry shurikens made of a variety of materials.
Why don't you post a build where shurikens make a decent ranged weapon? One that can be used against targets that are, say, 30ft away. I'll even calculate your DPR for you!
Viridium
Not trying to pick on you or anything, but Viridium isn't actually likely to kill anyone so you don't have to burn the cash on it. Its D2 charisma damage, onset 2D4 weeks, frequency 1/week.
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To those saying Stunning Fist is "useless":
Let's say wizards got an extra ability that looked like this:
As a free action once per round, a target has to make a will save with a DC of 10+1/2 level+Con modifier. If it fails it's stunned for one round (Con because it's a secondary stat, Int would be higher than a monk's wis). This can be used once per day per level.
Would that NOT be a noticable powerup? I think it would be a very noticable powerup, and that is when it's applied to potentially the most high-powered class in the game.
If it was a first or second level spell it'd be the hands down best combat spell of that level.
I'd much rather focus on the kind of combat the monk will be doing 99% of the time.
Even better! Make a Monk build where shurikens make decent secondary weapons. Just like Fighters, Rangers and Barbarians usually carry a bow for emergencies.
To those saying Stunning Fist is "useless":
Let's say wizards got an extra ability that looked like this:
As a free action once per round, a target has to make a will save with a DC of 10+1/2 level+Con modifier. If it fails it's stunned for one round (Con because it's a secondary stat, Int would be higher than a monk's wis). This can be used once per day per level.Would that NOT be a noticable powerup? I think it would be a very noticable powerup, and that is when it's applied to potentially the most high-powered class in the game.
If it was a first or second level spell it'd be the hands down best combat spell of that level.
Except the wizard would have to declare his action, then hit the target, then hope it fail its saving throw.
If the wizard misses or if his target makes its saving throw, if completely fails.
It'd be a power up, of course. Technically, any ability you add to a class is a power up. But it wouldn't be a significant one.
To those saying Stunning Fist is "useless"
Who said it was useless?
He uses FoB BaB
EDIT: ACtually this mmake doubt, does the monk uses his actual BAB for Power attack or does he uses his FoB BAB??
There is nothing stopping Monks from combining Power Attack with FoB. It's one of the few things that actually increase their damage in a significant way.
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Thanks! I'll do the mantis wisdom, as that will give me the same +2@ Ciretose
You can not furious focus with unarmed strike. Change that for ability focus, weapon focus or mantys wisdom.
Only when you ara using stuning fist, so 10 times at day. Also your attack routine is off
It should be
+15/+15/+10/+10 (1d8+12 20/x2)or without power attack
+17/+17/+12/+12 (1d8+8 20/x2)
With haste and ki it is
+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11 (1d8+12 20/x2)
or without power attack
+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13 (1d8+12 20/x2)
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EDIT: ACtually this mmake doubt, does the monk uses his actual BAB for Power attack or does he uses his FoB BAB??
I posted without power attack as a baseline.
All this talk and still no General Monk/Fighter builds vs one another, and no Combat Scenario(one that favors neither class) involved.
That's probably because a general fighter build uses a weapon and this thread is about who is better at unarmed combat.
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Not combining, i am talking about hte modifiers. FOr a 10th level monk using FoB it is -2/+4 or -3/+6??EDIT: ACtually this mmake doubt, does the monk uses his actual BAB for Power attack or does he uses his FoB BAB??There is nothing stopping Monks from combining Power Attack with FoB. It's one of the few things that actually increase their damage in a significant way.
BaB is just BaB so +7
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That's probably because a general fighter build uses a weapon and this thread is about who is better at unarmed combat.All this talk and still no General Monk/Fighter builds vs one another, and no Combat Scenario(one that favors neither class) involved.
I should have been more specific in respect to the OP.
That still shouldn't stop two different Unarmed builds from being posted, with a combat scenario that favors both or neither build.
That's probably because a general fighter build uses a weapon and this thread is about who is better at unarmed combat.All this talk and still no General Monk/Fighter builds vs one another, and no Combat Scenario(one that favors neither class) involved.
This is no longer a fighter thread. Its another thread on the why and how of monk.
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This is no longer a fighter thread. Its another thread on the why and how of monk.That's probably because a general fighter build uses a weapon and this thread is about who is better at unarmed combat.All this talk and still no General Monk/Fighter builds vs one another, and no Combat Scenario(one that favors neither class) involved.
Or we established the baseline for unarmed fighter several pages back and now we are doing the same for monk.
But don't let facts get in the way of theory...
I was there. The fighter vs monk thing is long since over.
I was there. The fighter vs monk thing is long since over.
Well not really. The monk loses in DPR, this thread is now debating if the monks advantages make up for the loss in DPR.
Not combining, i am talking about hte modifiers. FOr a 10th level monk using FoB it is -2/+4 or -3/+6??EDIT: ACtually this mmake doubt, does the monk uses his actual BAB for Power attack or does he uses his FoB BAB??There is nothing stopping Monks from combining Power Attack with FoB. It's one of the few things that actually increase their damage in a significant way.
-3/+6 when flurry.
-2/+4 when not.
This thread is also about unarmed damage. As in who can punch better.
@Dabbler - We did the math, it doesn't fail 90% of the time. Stop.
Slight exaggeration on my part, I will admit.
And it is a +1 enhancement, which means one weapon priced at what others have to pay two weapons for gets you the ability to use stunning fist, quivering palm and other ki features...
Stunning fist, for most of the monk's career, then. Know any other class that needs a weapon feature to use a class ability armed?
The math is the math.
OK, let's look at your build...
A wisdom of 20 at 10th level gives you a DC22 save with Mantis Style feats, which isn't too bad. Your attack bonus is +17 at best (or +18 using haste), but +19 when attacking with stunning fist. Your average CR10 foe should be AC24 and it's good save should be +13 (and it's likely got good fortitude). So you hit it 80% of the time with your stunning fist attempt, and it saves 60% of the time. So odds of success are .4 x .8 = 0.32 or 32%. So of your ten stunning fists a day, you get three successes, on average, assuming no DR to overcome.
That's pretty good as stunning fist goes, but you've cranked in two feats to make this work, and your odds of success are no better than 1/3 on any given attempt. On the flip side, you are AC25 with 88 hp against something with a high attack of +18 and doing high damage of 45. So it's likely to kill you if you don't stun it in round #1 or #2 (and that's assuming you got initiative), and if you stun it in round #2 you don't win without hurting bad. I would advise taking the truestrike power, pumping Dexterity instead of strength, and concentrate on getting that certain hit in round #1, which will bump your odds to close to 40% on the first attack, but that's still far from certain.
Now a non-stunning fist monk is more likely to have DC19, and +17 to hit. He'll hit 70% of the time, and the save will fail 25% of the time. That's only 17.5% chance of success, which isn't very good. A slight boost to AC, or save, or having DR will sink this further.
Don't get me wrong, I think that stunning fist is a great power, but the fact you need to hit and do damage makes it of limited usefulness to a class that struggles to hit and do damage at all. It's a "great when it works" power, you can't depend on it even with your stun-oriented monk who thanks to his awful AC pretty much has to depend on it.
I agree, it's a =good trade-off, but you are fighting defensively when offence is what is called for.
-1 to attack does not hurt your offense. Fighting defensively does not reduce your damage. Not even an issue at all.
I use Crane Style all the time. After you get Crane Riposte, you should never not be using Crane Style.
Does that happen often?
Since my games usually end in the 12th to 18th level range, it does happen quite often. In my groups the low will save characters are rarely played for exactly this reason. Nothing sucks more than being the guy running from the battle, held in place, charmed, slept, teleported away, or some other such lame effect from a missed will save. It's one of those things where everyone thinking about making a fighter or cavalier goes "This is really cool. Damn. Low will save. That's going to suck at high level."
Clerics and druids laugh as well. But monks do too. I don't know how you build your monks, but I always pick up a Wisdom-enchancing item. My will save is maybe 4 points behind the cleric. I also seek inherent bonus increases to wisdom as well. Maybe a lot of monks shirk wisdom, but I don't. I like the high Perception and Will save.
Don't toss the name Treantmonk out there as though that has meaning to me. I was doing "God Wizard" tactics in 1st edition. None of those guides are anything new to me.So, what? You want a trophy? You can't toss a stone around this place without hitting people who were doing God wizards in 1st edition, myself and Treatmonk included. What Treantmonk did that he deserves credit for is be the first to draft a well constructed analysis of optimization for multiple classes in Pathfinder (which is not the same rule set as anything that came previously).
I think "it won't work in all situations" is an intelligent counter argument when the character has no backup....
Have you actually used shuriken in game? I'm running a monk in a current campaign. I can tell you from direct recent experience shuriken are useless at lvl 10. I'll even tell you why.1. It's too expensive to make them magical all the time. If you use greater magic weapon, they still don't penetrate DR.
2. You aren't going to spend the feats to become good at using them. You're not going to pick up Deadly Aim or Point Blank Shot when you can pick up something like Crane Style or Improved Critical to help you in melee combat.
3. They are close to useless with their short range. By the time any creature gets into a range where shuriken are viable, you're better off going to melee. The range increment is 10 feet. If the creature is within 20 or 30 feet, then you attack him in melee rather than take the -2 to -4 to hit on top of the -2 from flurrying with a non-focused dex.
This i not theory-crafting in some guide. This is experience playing the game. Shurikens are not useful at all past low levels when ACs are low and damage reduction is rare. Even then they are marginally useful at best. You should think about actual use such as penalties for firing into combat, cover, and range increments against higher ACs before assuming shuriken are useful. They aren't.
You threw Treantmonk's name out there like that meant something to me. If you were using a "God Wizard"'s in first edition, doubt you would even be tossing someone else's name out there.
You obviously have very little experience using shuriken past lvl 1 to 5. We'll end this conversation here. You get back to me when you play a monk to high level while trying to make sure you have the strength to do enough damage in melee. You will find that hitting five times with shuriken with a strength focused monk against higher level creatures isn't going to happen.
You are far better off spending coin on an item to allow you to fly, so you can engage flying creatures in melee than using shuriken. Range increment alone gives you a very low chance to hit. You can fly 60 feet far easier than hit a creature with shuriken even 30 feet away. That's my advice to you from experience playing.
Side note: Finding viridium shuriken is not something every DM allows. Just like finding Celestial Mithril isn't easy.
You obviously have very little experience using shuriken past lvl 1 to 5.
And yet, you haven't produced a build to prove shurikens are good backup weapons... They have terrible range increments and terrible damage. Plus, they are destroyed every time you use them, so they're expensive too, unless they are mundane shurikens, which own't be useful past 4~5th level.
From where I'm standing, shurikens suck. Care to prove me wrong?
There are many cases where Fly doesn't work (for example, medium creatures can't even fly if the wind is too strong). That's why you need more than just a hammer. Fly may be quite difficult depending on things like webs (I don't mean the spell), twisted caves with stalactites and stalagmites, etc. so it might be better to use ranged weapons instead
And how do shurikens fare in such conditions? Every thing you listed is as much as problem for ranged weapons (especially one with short range increments) as it is for Fly effects. Fly at least is more universally useful and cheaper than buying a bunch of +1 disposable weapons.
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@Dabbler - But also remember on that 1/3 of the time I stun, I get two additional attacks from Medusas wrath, above and beyond if I burn a ki or use the boots.
Personally, I generally view stunning fist as a side feature. When it works, it is wonderful, but I don't build for it to work because I've found narrowly built designs are just asking for trouble unless they are in a group built to fill the games.
But if you did go for a stunning fist build, I think the one I posted is viable and quite effective.
At the end of the day, I think at this point the armed monk is fine, given you can pour your energies into a single weapon. It is on par or slightly above a ranger, with the secondary abilities being more or less a wash IMHO.
OTOH, I think the unarmed is < armed, which I don't care for. The bump to AoMF helped, and the clarification on haste quieted a number of people...but if the intent is for the monk to be an unarmed specialist, the class isn't really working well in that regard.
Right now, pure DPR the fighter seems to be well ahead. And even with stunning fist, I'm somewhat shocked no one has mentioned that Mantis Style also helps fighters who take stunning fist...
I am still uncertain as the answer to the OP's question, but I do think we've shown that either option can be viable, if sub-optimal.
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You obviously have very little experience using shuriken past lvl 1 to 5.And yet, you haven't produced a build to prove shurikens are good backup weapons... They have terrible range increments and terrible damage. Plus, they are destroyed every time you use them, so they're expensive too, unless they are mundane shurikens, which own't be useful past 4~5th level.
From where I'm standing, shurikens suck. Care to prove me wrong?
Lemmy is correct. Build or it didn't happen.