What MrSin Said
An Unarmed Fighter get's Improved unarmed strike and a free style feat, I used it to take Dragon Style
So 7/7 To hit
Damage: 1d3+6+2+4+1=1d3+13
Edit: Forgot to account for Weapon Training.
5th Level Human Brawler
STR 18 (16+2 Dual Talent)
Dex 17 (14+2+1 LV4 and Dual Talent)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 8
1st Improved Unarmed Strike, Two Weapon Fighting
2nd Power Attack
3rd Weapon Focus(Unarmed)
4th Dragon Style
5th Weapon Specialization
For comparison purposes in a more damage focused build.
7/7 To hit
(-2,+4 Power Attack)
1d3+6+4+2+3+1d3+15
Gave up Iron will at level 5 for more DPR.
The better is a multiclass monk/fighter.
The better is a multiclass monk/fighter.
Yeah. If I wanted to create, specifically, someone who was primarily above all things good at punching (and wrestling), might do monk 3/fighter rest of the way, and get the Monastic Training to get better unarmed strike damage dice.
Otherwise, in terms of unarmed strike ONLY, I'd say a fighter is better, at least at lower levels. At higher levels it may not matter (the fighter/martial artist comparison someone posted show that), with ability increases, various bonuses, and assuming each has gear that optimizes his performance.
The rest is tradeoff -- the monk has much better saves (and especially will saves) so he's less likely to be enchanted/dominated/frightened etc. and skills. The monk can also with ki give himself things like extra attacks, heal himself, etc. The fighter can be MUCH more versatile with combat styles and options, even compared to the monk's options. The fighter will be a better damage sink. The monk will be a better resister of effects.
As to which to play, you'd have to think in total what you'd want the character to be good at, rather than just unarmed striking.
Otherwise, in terms of unarmed strike ONLY, I'd say a fighter is better, at least at lower levels. At higher levels it may not matter (the fighter/martial artist comparison someone posted show that), with ability increases, various bonuses, and assuming each has gear that optimizes his performance.
At higher levels the fighter has access to gear the monk does not. Brawling armor quality and gloves of dueling in particular. He also ends up with a much higher to hit because the fighter gains attack/damage increases but the monk only increases in damage dice. He also gains access to feats the monk doesn't. I'd think the fighter would win in damage in the end, I posted a quick comparison of level 20 earlier.
What type of bonus does brawling armor provide? Is it enhancement?
What type of bonus does brawling armor provide? Is it enhancement?
Brawling is untyped. Also makes your unarmed attacks magical.
You can make a Monk 10/ Fighter 10.
With Monk´s Robe and Monastic Legacy feat you will have the monk level 20 unarmed damage.
Using gloves of dueling and Brawling Bracers of Armor.
With that said in 3.5 there were easier ways of getting size increases (or virtual size increases) and that will increase the damage more for a monk then for a fighter.
If its 3.5, the fighter is likely to take superior unarmed strike. Also, its 4D8 > 6D8 isn't it?
2d8 ->2d10 -> 4d8 -> 4d10. i think it´s double every two steps.
2d8 ->2d10 -> 4d8 -> 4d10. i think it´s double every two steps.
Nope! That's not even doubling. Here's a site with an expanded list. The monks unarmed strike increase don't go up in size. Its a slow static increase. Size is much more exponential.
Hmm..i see..but is almost the same thing.
You can see it double every two steps. 2d8-> 4d8 - >8d8 . 6d8 - >12d8
the only difference is 2d10 - >6d8
Brawling Bracers of ArmorExplicitly doesn't work by RAW and confirmed as such by the devs. Gotta be on actual armor, period.
When? Why? Where?
When? Why? Where?Brawling Bracers of ArmorExplicitly doesn't work by RAW and confirmed as such by the devs. Gotta be on actual armor, period.
No idea when, but its explicitly for light armor, and bracers of armor aren't light armor. Also, they might just hate monks or something. /shrug
Came up as soon as we saw it in a preview on the blog.
James just supposed, and bracers of armor is an exception for armor magic enhancements. for me it works
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I hadn't realized that it was an untyped bonus. I had assumed that it was an enhancement bonus and would eventually get trumped by the Amulet of Might Fists. The fact that it stacks with the AoMF makes it even worse.
In my opinion it needs errata to fix the many issues it has or should just be removed from the game. Along with the overpriced, overcomplicated, and over-restrictive Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes.
Are you saying the Brawling enchantment need to be repaired or removed?
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Came up as soon as we saw it in a preview on the blog.James just supposed, and bracers of armor is an exception for armor magic enhancements. for me it works
You're welcome to houserule it if you like - I certainly think it makes sense - but the RAW and the RAI are both clear in this instance.
Also, that's Jason, not James. James is the Creative Director, but Jason is the Lead Designer - he's the Last Word in rules.
What? Why should Brawling enhancement be nerfed/removed??? Unarmed Strikes are quite possibly the worst weapon in the whole game... Why nerf one of the few things that make it actually good?
Do we really need unarmed characters to be even dependent of a singe very specific (and expensive!) item (AoMF)?
I say brawling should be given a boost in that it can be applied to bracers of armor.
Would be an easy fix actually. Just remove the light armor specific gig from it. Silly to do anyway. "I'm sorry, but full plates just can't magically punch people as well as people in chainmail bikinis!"
I say brawling should be given a boost in that it can be applied to bracers of armor.Would be an easy fix actually. Just remove the light armor specific gig from it. Silly to do anyway. "I'm sorry, but full plates just can't magically punch people as well as people in chainmail bikinis!"
The way i see Armor special abilities is just for armors. Bracer of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities, but the bracer is not an armor so armor restriction don´t apply in this case.
If brawling could be added to bracers of armor, you could wear brawling bracers of armor and +1 brawling armor to get a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes.
I believe that even untyped bonuses don't stack if they come from the same source, so having two brawling armor enchantments would not stack.
A change that would allow brawling to work on any armor is preferable, but if not just remove it altogether. Same with the Body Wraps. A fix to make it more useful is preferred, but if not it might as well just be removed.
If brawling could be added to bracers of armor, you could wear brawling bracers of armor and +1 brawling armor to get a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes.I believe that even untyped bonuses don't stack if they come from the same source, so having two brawling armor enchantments would not stack.
A change that would allow brawling to work on any armor is preferable, but if not just remove it altogether. Same with the Body Wraps. A fix to make it more useful is preferred, but if not it might as well just be removed.
Why? I find it very useful as is. Adding uses would be nice. But. It is far from useless. Barbarians and Fighters love it. Also and unarmed Magus that I built.
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A change that would allow brawling to work on any armor is preferable, but if not just remove it altogether. Same with the Body Wraps. A fix to make it more useful is preferred, but if not it might as well just be removed.
By that logic we shouldn't have paladins. Much preferred fix!
A change that would allow brawling to work on any armor is preferable, but if not just remove it altogether. Same with the Body Wraps. A fix to make it more useful is preferred, but if not it might as well just be removed.By that logic we shouldn't have paladins. Much preferred fix!
I really have no idea what this means at all. I guess it would be a matter of opinion on whether or not they are too restrictive or complicated. I don't think they are either. Nor are they overpriced. I guess the paladin class can't be added to any armor at all, but I don't think that is a bug.
In a vain attempt to close the derail (which was totally my fault), I generally prefer monk over fighter for unarmed combat. It is just what they were designed to do. Their survivability will (IMHO) be better and they have cool (if a little random) abilities.
I also think that they get the most benefit from the Vital Strike feat. That one feat can add up to 11 damage (doubled on a crit) to a standard attack, which is not too shabby.
Actually, I never found the monk's abilities to be that amazing. From class features they mostly have defensive abilities that don't really get a chance to shine(downside of being defensive, not a bad thing, just not shiney). I don't think either of them are ones I'd really want to have to pick between, neither one I think I'd see much amazingness out of. Picking poisons. Can I have a third choice?
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Actually, I never found the monk's abilities to be that amazing. From class features they mostly have defensive abilities that don't really get a chance to shine(downside of being defensive, not a bad thing, just not shiney). I don't think either of them are ones I'd really want to have to pick between, neither one I think I'd see much amazingness out of. Picking poisons. Can I have a third choice?
Melee Inquisitor of Irori? They could do things better than both Monks and Fighters IMO, because magic+Judgement.
Actually, I never found the monk's abilities to be that amazing. From class features they mostly have defensive abilities that don't really get a chance to shine(downside of being defensive, not a bad thing, just not shiney). I don't think either of them are ones I'd really want to have to pick between, neither one I think I'd see much amazingness out of. Picking poisons. Can I have a third choice?Melee Inquisitor of Irori? They could do things better than both Monks and Fighters IMO, because magic+Judgement.
Personally, I never liked judgement, but being able to cast divine power is a big plus. Thread is about monks vs. fighters though.
The only thing wrong with Brawling property is that monks have to give up their class features to get it. If anything, it should give those with monk levels a higher bonus.
If brawling could be added to bracers of armor, you could wear brawling bracers of armor and +1 brawling armor to get a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes.
Which raises an interesting question: What happens to the qualities of a magic armored kilt when you add it to another suit of magic armor?
That's not how things work. Same source. By the same logic, you could just wear a haramaki under a chain shirt both with Brawling and get a +4, too. In that case, and the bracers + armor case, you're not stacking the armor bonuses, and wearing one hardly interferes with wearing the other. It doesn't work, because same source. Brawling is the same source, no matter how many different Brawling armors you layer up with.
Martial Artist Monk with Dragon style feats gives the fighter a run for his money DPR wise.
Style feats are not exclusive to the monk, but they are combat feats so fighters can take them as their bonus feats...
Pure DPR with UNARMED STRIKE, I'd say a STR. based monk could out-damage a fighter because the fighter is stuck at 1d3+x damage. Now, ignoring the fact that Str. focused monks have a good chance of dying from not killing the foe in time because of a poor AC, The monk starts a 1d6+x(+3 is the highest that I see)vs. the fighter starting a 1d3+x(5 is the highest you could get at 1st level, which only fighter/barbs can pull off). So the difference isn't that big at lower levels.
Yes, but at higher levels the fighter then loses nothing from using brass knuckles, so he has up to +5 enhancement and +5 worth of properties available, while the monk has just +5 total available on his more expensive item.
The fighter also has Weapon Specialisation, weapon training, and can add gloves of dueling and brawling armour into the bargain at later levels. And the fighter can wear a monk's robe, too.
It's also been demonstrated that the fighter can beat the monk soundly at any maneuvers.
This does not mean a given fighter can always beat a given monk, but offensively, anything the monk can do the fighter can do better.
Defensively, the fighter can have better AC and hit points, the monk will have better Will and Reflex saves.
Now if I was running a solo game, I'd take a monk out of the two of them. If I was in a team game, I'd take a fighter because his weaknesses can be covered by the rest of the party anyway.
I gotta say, if I ever meet the person who decided to make a "brawling" item property that the monk can't use... it'll take all I've got not to start "brawling" myself. Seriously I think for me personally that was the single most frustrating thing to come out of Ultimate Equipment (an otherwise fine book).
My fighter loves the brawling enchantment....
Fighter wins. Monk sucks at everything.
I dunno... our half-giant Tetori grappled a Kraken underwater and squeezed it into unconsciousness. Those guys are beasts in close-quarters combat.
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Survivability: I'd say monks because SR+High Touch+Super Fast+Minor "Holy S#!+ I'M DYING healing which is better than nothing+High Saves>Fighters with Combat Feats+Skipping style prerequisites+weapon training+Other Fighter Stuff that doesn't help with survivability+Higher Flat-Footed and In general AC+Brawling Armor.
Damage:Fighter because this^ is reversed and monks just get a really high unarmed strike damage+x which is most worth it if you take dragon style (Which means no other style unless you are a MoMS), and monks don't get much as far as damage.
What do you guys think about my assessment of the Survivable v. Combat so far?
What do you guys think about my assessment of the Survivable v. Combat so far?
You miss out on one really important point: ending the fight FAST. The best survivability is killing the enemy in the fewest number of rounds, end of.
To explain: If the fighter is twice as likely to get hit, twice as likely to fail a save, but finishes the fight in one third the time, he will fail less saves and take less damage than the monk will, and so is more likely to win the fight. So that "other stuff that won't help with survivability" actually does help it by killing the enemy faster.
This is something born out by the tests we did a while back comparing monks and other classes. If you can kill the enemy in two rounds rather than six, that's survivability all on it's own.
Fair point.