Player wants to play a lich


Advice

Silver Crusade

Player is running a dhampir magus with a background that tampering with magic beyond his control as an apprentice opened a portal to the shadow plane, forever changing him (into dhampir). He's now seeing if his exposure might have done more and is asking about the lich template. While the full template is insanely powerful for a PC and I can't let that in, looking for thoughts on other options and game balance.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

What level is your party? Becoming a Lich should be something you work for, even if it's not in the way the template expects (many specialized adventures and tons of gold). I could see slowly giving him scaling Lich-like abilities that culminates in him gaining the template at a higher level; it takes a while for that exposure he had to complete the process after all. If you'd go that route I'd give the other PCs similar options or other scaling perks specialized to their characters as well.


Maybe he can become a sentient zombie?


Becoming a lich is usually a long-term goal for a player and at least in my groups has been something attained at the end of a series of quests and challenges. I don't think we've ever actually played any games with a lich PC, that's sort of retirement zone for the sorts of games we play.

If the game is generally an epic-level sort of game with all of the PCs having lich-comparable powers and abilities, then I see no issue, it's just a higher level game. If the rest of the PCs are going to remain mundane low-level characters I wouldn't want a lich in the party.

And just because I'm a lazy GM, I wouldn't go to great lengths to try to create a "lich-lite" just to accommodate the player in question. I'd have a conversation about what his true goals were and look for a more equitable way to achieve them.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Party just hit 4th level.

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Your impulse that this would become a game balance chore is spot-on. Quite aside from the substantial defensive perks that come with the Undead type itself, abilities like "permanent paralysis, by touch, at will" and "can come back from utter annihilation, automatically and safely" are not really well-suited to keeping one player from overshadowing the rest of the group consistently.

Tell him the lich template is accessible if he's willing to retire his PC the instant he gets it (in other words, "sorry, no.") Ask what it is he's actually after with this pursuit of lichdom. Immortality? Magical power? Looking more like the cover of a heavy metal album? There are ways to attain all these things that do not have such a grievous impact on party and campaign balance.

(Side note: it would be a portal into the Negative Energy Plane, not the Shadow Plane, that would reasonably induce semi-undead status - although of course that may not be how your home cosmology works. I only mention it as a bit of planar trivia.)


Lincoln Hills wrote:
"can come back from utter annihilation, automatically and safely"

I am guessing that he would still need to make his phylactery. He would need 120,000gp and the CWI feet. Not TOO big of a deal there.

But all the other abilities and the fact that his CR would be two higher than the rest of the party, that is kind of a big deal.

Liberty's Edge

My immediate reaction, if I were the GM, would be, "NO!" But upon reflection, I might allow it, if the character is evil. Becoming a lich is no trivial matter. If a PC dies not take extreme care, his efforts to become a lich may be noticed by good-aligned clerics and paladins, who will take steps to destroy the character before he succeeds creating his phylactery. If he does manage to become a lich, he would almost certainly become the target of many good adventurers, with backing from many churches and governments.

In any case, the character cannot begin the process until eleventh level, so you have some time to think about it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

First Question: is this going to be fun for the other players to play with and you to run as the GM?

...if yes, proceed with determining balance issues.
...if no, have out of conversation with PC that their becoming a lich will not work in your current campaign.

-TimD

P.S. also, may want to look at the "retirement" option above - could be a fun springboard for your NEXT campaign, which is entirely different from "hey, can I play this while running through modules?"

A well-played, PC-driven lich is nigh-impossible to really threaten, much less end without a LOT of GM hand-waving.


I would allow him to try. I would not just say yes. He would have to perform various rituals represented with knowledge(arcana) and spellcraft checks, and the dice should be rolled behind the screen. Gathering rare ingredients would be involved. He may even fail or die in the process.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Back in the D&D 3.5 days, WotC made several transitional class progressions for transforming characters so that they could acquire templates with level adjustments one level at a time. I think they made one for liches. If you can track that down and show it to your player, he could consider that as an option. Of course, we all know that the loss of caster levels to levels of that template could be undesirable to a player with any strategic sense.

I think Necromancers of the Northwest came up with a more Pathfinder friendly option in the form of a prestige class that transforms a character from his original race into a lich over ten levels. I forget how many caster levels are lost via that path, but I think it is fewer than with the WotC option.


Actually try this...

Break the progression down into 5 feats. Each feat gives him 1/5 the lich abilities but at a cost of -2 con each feat, With the 5th feat and the 120k item, he becomes a lich. So he works pretty hard and gives up quite a bit of character power since he isnt getting much gear since he is saving every dime.

Secondly, having the phylactery is a curse as well as a blessing. Where will he keep it? No matter where he keeps it, someone can come across it. Then he has to deal with that. Will the others assist him or is he on his own?

Being a lich means you are a rotting corpse (unless you cast gentle repose or take the lich feat that allows you to remain looking human). How will the group deal with that? Probably not greatly pleased. Also, any social actions are out the window.

Also being a lich just means you reform....sans gear. So anything he has someone else now has. Oh your spellbook? Better hope you are spontaneous caster. Oh you arent?

Lastly, being able to reform isnt a big deal considering for 5k and two restorations cast, you can come back the same day. Consider his 120k as what, 24 raise deads paid in advance.

Being a lich really isnt that great. At that level, who cares about the lich touch anyhow? Stats? Sure just get the wondrous items.


Also, in addition to having the Craft Wondrous Item feat and 120,000 gp, the character must also have Caster Level 11th.

Once the character fullfills all these requirements, I would allow him to become a lich when the rest of the PCs reach 12th level. Instead of advancing to 12th level, the character instead turns into an 11th level magus that counts as a 13th level character.
When all the other PCs in the party reach 14th level, the lich character advances to 12th level (because of the CR adjustment).


Say that his Phylactory has to be on his persons at all time, or else it won't work.


First, it is a long term goal--he needs a Caster Level 11 to do it.
Now, at those levels, the lich powers really aren't all that overpowering. Yes, "paralyzing touch at-will" seems like a lot, but an 11th level caster has so many other options that amount to "save-or-lose" (and paralysis doesn't even mean the monster loses, especially at higher levels), that this isn't a huge issue. You can get resurrection by those levels if you aren't a lich, so the only thing the phylactery will do is prevent a TPK. And at that point...don't you want to prevent a TPK anyways?

So yea, it is a great long term goal. He won't get there for several more levels, but by that point it can work pretty well.

Grand Lodge

Check out Libris Mortis, for the Necropolotin template.

It has a process that changes a PC into undead.

It's a bit like a lesser Lich, but without the Phylactery, and regeneration thing.

If using, and updating this 3.5 material is not your thing, then wait for them to be 11th level.

At that time, he can go about it the usual way.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Touc wrote:
Player is running a dhampir magus with a background that tampering with magic beyond his control as an apprentice opened a portal to the shadow plane, forever changing him (into dhampir). He's now seeing if his exposure might have done more and is asking about the lich template. While the full template is insanely powerful for a PC and I can't let that in, looking for thoughts on other options and game balance.

A lich is a Necromancer Wizard (see page 81-82) of PHB, who is at least 11 th level.

So if you allow evil characters, then

1) Let him play a Necromancer Wizard till level 11th
2) Have him spend 120,000 gp on Research
3) Have him go on 10 quests, to find out how to become a lich
4) Have him spend another 120,000 to make his phylactery
5) Give him a Saving throw vs Death magic. If he make the saving throw... he dies, and becomes a Lich in the normal way. If he fails, then he just dies, and vanishes forever into the negative plane, with no chance of being saved except by a full Wish.


As stated above heres alink to the Lich template

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a

Grand Lodge

Something is wrong with your link, but here's the Paizo PRD link:

Lich from Bestiary


Or how about just buying the adventure path Way of the Wicked by Fire Mountain games (believe it is book 5) and all your questions are answered for $10 for a downloaded pdf? It is hands down the best AP and I highly suggest looking into it. You can find it where you do all the pdf ordering on d20.


I think I would have the player go through standard rules to get the template. Story wise there would need to be forbidden knowledge gained, to me that comes at a price whether friends, family, or personal wealth. Role play the parties reaction to discovering what he's doing as well.

I would then have an npc ready to play until 12th level which I would allow the lich. Then the party would get to role play out the return of their undead friend.

You may even want to look at some type of insanity like megolomania being imposed on a brand new lich.


The correct 3.5e D&D link for the PC Lich template is here.

Mortis


To be fair, the lich example in the bestiary is barely over a level 10 character.

Edit: shameful recollection of numbers

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Player wants to play a lich All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice