What is the DEAL with slings?

[Mark Hoover]

I'll apologize if any of my comments are perceived as inflammatory. I don't mean to cause such polarized reactions. Not for a sling anyways; now if we were talking about bolas... :)

[Aelryinth]

I find it interesting that the Adaptive enchantment was brought up, because every sling has it built right in without costing a dime!

==Aelryinth

[Nicos]

Aelryinth wrote:

I find it interesting that the Adaptive enchantment was brought up, because every sling has it built right in without costing a dime!

==Aelryinth

The compositebows had, lets say, a "weakness" the game remove it with a really cheap magic property.

A sling/crossbows have a several weakness, there are not magic enhacement for them.

Totally unfair.

[insaneogeddon]

ciretose wrote:

mplindustries wrote:

ciretose wrote:

It is a lever. But the force comes from the swinging motion, not from a Jai alai type arm extension.

The velocity is primarily from the swinging..

If you can see that video and think that the guy's strength has nothing to do with the power behind that stone, then I don't even know how to have this discussion with you anymore.

ciretose wrote:

Yes. I also believe the world was round then, despite primary sources of dragons beyond the horizon...

The Greeks knew the world was round starting with Pythagoras, 200 years before Xenophon.

Actually, shockingly few ancient people actually thought the Earth was flat--it's basically impossible to be a seafaring culture and think that the world is flat because the horizon exists.

You also have to realize that while a culture's mythology might describe the world as flat (say, some the Egyptians that said the Earth was a flat disk floating in water), that doesn't necessarily mean they believed it was literally true. Most people can recognize that myths can carry truth and valuable lessons without requiring them to be literally true (the majority of Christians and Jews don't literally believe in the story of Adam and Eve, for example).

Great. And they said over a million people we at an event where it wasn't physically possible to have close to a million people, and the first person account cited is about 5 times what was actually present.

So, you know...

And the velocity of the swing comes from the technique as much as any actual strength. The sling is not solid, the force is from the centripetal motion, which is generated more by technique used than strength of the user. If the string were a solid object, it would be more of a direct transfer. Basic physics.

But if you have any evidence, at all, what damage from a sling was relative to bows, or accuracy, or...well...anything made of actual data, I would love to discuss...

Proof is not one internet video.

There is some conflict in slinging and archeological circles as to if slings were indeed spun or just used as an arm extender for a normal throwing motion. Sadly movies (clan of the cavebear was the first one I saw slinging in) tend to only show/mislead with the twirly twirl method.
Modern users also tend to be effected by such media. Ironically even slinging.org that speaks at length in articles about just extending arm length for throws has a picture of twirling next to its name.
http://slinging.org/

Just like the spear thrower (woomera/atlatl) adds substantial force to a spear just by lengthening throw length and adding a flick component (as its solid).
http://waa.basketmakeratlatl.com/

The spinning method would be unlikely to add much strength and be more about technique and a wrist flick. The extend the length of throw method, like all throws, has a major strength component!

There was a time in dnd slings were okay because str bows were maxed at +4 str. So for high str characters (Cú Chulainn) it was better. Exp. if you lack the resources to get a +billion str bow where you are. Its just now +billion str bows are common (and even possible), thats the real issue that makes archery better than crossbows and all thrown weapons!

[Jamie Charlan]

The big problem with the 'training' levels right now is that unlike previous editions proficiency outside exotics is for very broad categories.

Used to be you'd get a few slots on a list. The list was of weapons simple or local/ubiquitous-to-you enough that your character might learn to wield them, but things cost you a slot. You only knew a handful of weapons, and specializing with a bow you're proficient with [not crossbows] cost TWO slots instead of just one. Bows had potentially higher RoF if highly trained, but you actually had to go and highly train. The same should be said for slings, mind you, but they rarely do much in games.

Here, martial proficiency, and thus composite bow proficiency, are ubiquitous. Rare indeed is the character who could possibly ever wish to fire a ranged weapon AND cannot fire a bow as if he'd trained with it his entire life. You pretty much have to actively decide that this ain't happening, and keep away from most classes that do not end in 'izard' to avoid accidentally becoming a professional archer.

So a simple to learn weapon is left no simpler to learn than the long-learning-time one, which then get bonuses above and beyond it to "compensate" for the extra time required to become proficient in their use... except there's no such cost. And the simple ones THEN get compared to the no-cost high-speed-mastery weapons, get told "hey you, you're supposed to not have the same potential heights of mastery" and then get dragged out back and have every bone in their game value shattered to "compensate" for the more difficult weapon being too easy to learn and master.

[ciretose]

Nicos wrote:

ciretose wrote:

Nicos wrote:

@ Ciretose

You said you have ahalfling barbarian slinger that is not that effective but you still have fun with him

SImple qustion, woudl your fun be disrupted if the game have some mechanic that give oru slinger good and different options that make you more or less on par (never superior) to a comparable archer?

yes or nay?

Not as effective at being an ranged attacker as the Longbow specialist, yes.

But effective and I think just as useful as an archer.

I am not asking if you are fine with being less effective as the archer (as you seems to be).

I am asking that if it would ruin your fun that your slinger were as effective as the archer.

Here is the problem with that premise.

It is not about you and me personally sitting at a table. It is looking at a game world and trying to make the game world as rational as possible, reflecting the period being put forward.

In this period, slings were fairly obsolete weapons used by people who couldn't get access to better things.

I can make a viable concept focusing on slings. In some ways it will be more versatile than the long bow. I can use it with one hand, so I can have a buckler, or even dual toss two pre-loaded slings. I could also take sling flail and use it as a flail.

And if I do that I have a melee and ranged weapon that I can focus all my skill points into.

[Chengar Qordath]

ciretose wrote:

Nicos wrote:

ciretose wrote:

Nicos wrote:

@ Ciretose

You said you have ahalfling barbarian slinger that is not that effective but you still have fun with him

SImple qustion, woudl your fun be disrupted if the game have some mechanic that give oru slinger good and different options that make you more or less on par (never superior) to a comparable archer?

yes or nay?

Not as effective at being an ranged attacker as the Longbow specialist, yes.

But effective and I think just as useful as an archer.

I am not asking if you are fine with being less effective as the archer (as you seems to be).

I am asking that if it would ruin your fun that your slinger were as effective as the archer.

Here is the problem with that premise.

It is not about you and me personally sitting at a table. It is looking at a game world and trying to make the game world as rational as possible, reflecting the period being put forward.

In this period, slings were fairly obsolete weapons used by people who couldn't get access to better things.

I can make a viable concept focusing on slings. In some ways it will be more versatile than the long bow. I can use it with one hand, so I can have a buckler, or even dual toss two pre-loaded slings. I could also take sling flail and use it as a flail.

And if I do that I have a melee and ranged weapon that I can focus all my skill points into.

Ah, yeah. I remember the period of history where dragons roamed the earth and powerful wizards rewrote the laws of reality on a whim. I'm glad Pathfinder stay so true to the real history of Earth.

[Aelryinth]

Ah, yes. I remember a period where katanas cut tanks in two and ninjas flipped out and killed whole armies. I'm glad PF stayed so true to the real history of over the top fantasy who didn't need a grounding in reality.

==Aelryinth

[Nicos]

ciretose wrote:

Nicos wrote:

ciretose wrote:

Nicos wrote:

@ Ciretose

You said you have ahalfling barbarian slinger that is not that effective but you still have fun with him

SImple qustion, woudl your fun be disrupted if the game have some mechanic that give oru slinger good and different options that make you more or less on par (never superior) to a comparable archer?

yes or nay?

Not as effective at being an ranged attacker as the Longbow specialist, yes.

But effective and I think just as useful as an archer.

I am not asking if you are fine with being less effective as the archer (as you seems to be).

I am asking that if it would ruin your fun that your slinger were as effective as the archer.

Here is the problem with that premise.

It is not about you and me personally sitting at a table. It is looking at a game world and trying to make the game world as rational as possible, reflecting the period being put forward.

In this period, slings were fairly obsolete weapons used by people who couldn't get access to better things.

I can make a viable concept focusing on slings. In some ways it will be more versatile than the long bow. I can use it with one hand, so I can have a buckler, or even dual toss two pre-loaded slings. I could also take sling flail and use it as a flail.

And if I do that I have a melee and ranged weapon that I can focus all my skill points into.

1) so no? I suppose it owudl not ruin your fun. Your will still like your halfling slinger barbarian.

Howerver, and this is pretty important, it will enhace te un for some oter people. you know, the main reason people play a game

2) Again you go with the bias realistic interpretation. Archer are helped by fantasy (manyshot for example), why can slinger can not?

Also, none of the big disadvantages of bows compared to crossbows/slings are presented in teh game and youa re fine with that, but at the same time the disadvantages of those other weapon are determinant.

[ciretose]

Nico, you missed the point.

I could make the game have an auto-win button and make your character be awesome no matter what you picked.

And that game would be awesome for you once.

The sling wasn't that great a weapon. That is why the bow was invented. But it was a pretty good weapon, and in the game you can make a pretty good slinger. And that pretty good slinger will be able to do things the bow can't, like act as a flail and fit in your pocket.

But he won't be better at the things that bows are better at, nor should he be.

Because they are different things.

[Nicos]

ciretose wrote:

Nico, you missed the point.

I could make the game have an auto-win button and make your character be awesome no matter what you picked.

And that game would be awesome for you once.

Hell no. It woudl be far from awesome for me.

I woudl say that a slinger can be reasonable good in a low omptimized game, but when you start to optimize then he woudl suck. No close from bein pretty good. That disapoint me as a player, is pretty annoying fact.

EDIT: Not only with ranged weapons, but with everythin gin this game. i think the decitions shodulb e between different options, different styles.

Not just a a decitions between "best" and hte others.

[Nicos]

If you want to back up your statement that a slinger can be good enough you are, of course, free to make a thread for build comparision. I wodl say that afther level 6 the slinger will be far away from teh archer.

[Furious Kender]

Mark Hoover wrote:

I began the thread (and continue to interact with it) for the love of a Halfling with a sling. For all his...character Ciretose at least points out that in the current RAW these guys are not worthless. Many others have posted some genuine solutions to the problem of supporting this weapon and archetype. That's where this thread started and should be maintained.

I wasn't looking for a historical debate and I certainly never contended that in the real world the sling is better than the bow. PF has maintained the sling at the damage it does and that's what it is. Thankfully it includes Str damage.

But if folks want to quote data, factoids, tv or ancient history, all due respect but make your own thread please.

C-battery: please post your build if you have it handy. My own build (as I mentioned upthread) was around being a ranger and eventually gestalting into a cavalier though the game never got that far. My hope is that by discussing our own experiences with slinger characters we can understand the reasoning behind the more st support the sling has received from these games and brainstorm precisely what (if anything) we'd like different.

I don't have a link but one of the devs stated that the lack of sling support was so slings wouldn't be very good to use. I think it was one of the can my Halfling load a sling staff threads.

What we would like to see is rapid reload for slings.
Hafling that can use their racial sling more effectively than the sling.
Manyshot or something similar.

The devs know this already. This is far from the first sling thread.

I just find all these arguments about real life to be pointless. One this is a game. Two Blunt arrows are just as good as normal arrows in the game. However sling stones aren't because cutting surfaces are superior.....

And that is why bows with blunt arrows are superior to slings.

[Jamie Charlan]

Just having the existence of a load time and a smaller damage die is already plenty of reason it's less good to use than other weapons. There's no need to also screw it out of getting support for those that go for it.

We don't need to actively PUNISH people for choosing something for concept or theme on top of their choice being sub-par. If you averaged 2 less damage per hit than the next guy, and both of you get five shots in a round, you're still a solid 10 DPR below him. That's a pretty good step down, isn't that enough?

[Borthos Brewhammer]

If you're having fun, who cares? That's my question.

I got another one!

Quickfire

Prerequisites: BAB +1, Quick Draw

Effect: During the surprise round, if you are able to act and if you draw your sling you may take a free ranged attack with a sling as a swift action.

What do you think?

[Nicos]

Borthos Brewhammer wrote:

If you're having fun, who cares? That's my question.

I got another one!

Quickfire

Prerequisites: BAB +1, Quick Draw

Effect: During the surprise round, if you are able to act and if you draw your sling you may take a free ranged attack with a sling as a swift action.

What do you think?

WOudl be more appropiated for loaded crossbows, IMHo.

[SAMAS]

Furious Kender wrote:

I don't have a link but one of the devs stated that the lack of sling support was so slings wouldn't be very good to use.

This, to me is a problem, re: my first post in this thread. What's the point of giving an option if you make it deliberately bad?

[Chengar Qordath]

Aelryinth wrote:

Ah, yes. I remember a period where katanas cut tanks in two and ninjas flipped out and killed whole armies. I'm glad PF stayed so true to the real history of over the top fantasy who didn't need a grounding in reality.

==Aelryinth

Yeah. Because it makes total sense for half the game to be over-the-top fantasy like wizards making their own planes of existence, while other things absolutely must be grounded in reality. That attitude is why mundane classes in Pathfinder will always be inferior to casters in every conceivable way other than their ability to hit things with sharp pieces of metal. Because a game where half the classes can blatantly ignore real-world physics on a whim absolutely must be grounded in hard reality.

I would invite anyone to explain how Manyshot (AKA one of the biggest reasons longbows blow every other ranged weapon out of the water) is something that's strictly grounded in hard realism.

I do find it intriguing that the katana came up when one of my occasionally-repeated talking points is that some people fanboy over the longbow about as hard as the stereotypical Japanophile does about the katana.

[TarkXT]

I just wanted to jump in to this several hundred post thread on jockstraps that throw rocks and tell everyone that slings are crap and atlatls are god.

That is all.

[strayshift]

Mark Hoover wrote:

I began the thread (and continue to interact with it) for the love of a Halfling with a sling. For all his...character Ciretose at least points out that in the current RAW these guys are not worthless. Many others have posted some genuine solutions to the problem of supporting this weapon and archetype. That's where this thread started and should be maintained.

I wasn't looking for a historical debate and I certainly never contended that in the real world the sling is better than the bow. PF has maintained the sling at the damage it does and that's what it is. Thankfully it includes Str damage.

But if folks want to quote data, factoids, tv or ancient history, all due respect but make your own thread please.

C-battery: please post your build if you have it handy. My own build (as I mentioned upthread) was around being a ranger and eventually gestalting into a cavalier though the game never got that far. My hope is that by discussing our own experiences with slinger characters we can understand the reasoning behind the modest support the sling has received from these games and brainstorm precisely what (if anything) we'd like different.

And I would like to see a specific sling using archetype, possibly Halfling, possibly part fighter - part alchemist, possibly some kind of divine 'earth' connection. The weapon has enough possibilities to create some really flavourful ideas.

[Coriat]

ciretose wrote:

It is not about you and me personally sitting at a table. It is looking at a game world and trying to make the game world as rational as possible, reflecting the period being put forward.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

I'm not too hung up on realism, but I'm a fan of the Táin Bó Cúailnge, more so than the Lord of the Rings. I'd like to be able to play Cuchulainn and be just as bad-ass with a sling as Legolas is with a bow, but I'm not allowed to. In fact, I'm not allowed to even be in the same league; there's no comparison at all. At higher levels (like those represented by Cuchulainn in the Tain), a sling isn't an "inferior" option; it's a "worthless trash" non-option. This makes me sad, because it says very clearly that "this game is for LOTR fans only; fans of Irish epics need not apply."

In order to stop this sort of inferior fantasy inspiration from corrupting the realism of the game, please check all awesome slings at the door.

Awesome scythes, dire flails, spiked chains and double axes right this way.

Manyshot? Ohhh! Allow me to show you to the VIP lounge.

[Coriat]

strayshift wrote:

And I would like to see a specific sling using archetype, possibly Halfling, possibly part fighter - part alchemist, possibly some kind of divine 'earth' connection. The weapon has enough possibilities to create some really flavourful ideas.

This would be good, though perhaps not Halfling. I like that they get better proficiency, but I'm always a bit annoyed when only a particular race can do certain things with a particular weapon (kind of the same way that elves might be more likely to favor the bow, but other races can also make great archers).

[Rory]

ciretose wrote:

And if I do that I have a melee and ranged weapon that I can focus all my skill points into.

This is true to a point, but there is a hidden cost.

If you take Sling Flail to have a melee and ranged weapon, you are actually splitting focus.

Example:

Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim are staple for a ranged weapon. None of these help the melee attack. Power attack is the staple of the melee attack. This doesn't help the ranged side of the equation.

Power Attack is also a "cheap" stat investment for medium folk at 3 stat points. For halflings though, that requires 7 stat points, which is significantly more.

The bad part here though is that any class except the fighter has a really hard time to be a real slinger and sling flail champion. It just requires too many feats to accomplish.

Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus
Sling Flail
Power Attack

That's 13th level for most classes to achieve the "minimum", 9th level for rangers, and 6th level for fighters.

[Sadurian]

SAMAS wrote:

Sadurian wrote:

I'll bring up my idea for Stunning Shot again. Works a little like the Stunning Fist Feat but uses a sling.

Requirements: DEX 15, STR 11, Weapon Focus (Sling), base attack bonus +5. Using lead ammunition (not stones).

Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Shot forces a foe damaged by your sling attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Dex modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character drops everything held, can’t take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained, and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.

I would remove the "Using lead ammunition" prerequisite, and instead note in the description itself that this is only effective using actual Sling Bullets. That way, it can also be used with Cold Iron, Adamantine, or other metallic ammunition. I would probably note that it has to inflict Bludgeoning damage too, unless you're okay with it being used with Sharpstones.

You're quite right, I should have just specified properly created ammunition rather than 'lead'. The idea was to remove the option when just picking up stones and pebbles, both as a nod to the lesser density to stone over lead and as a nod to game balance to make proper ammunition a prerequisite.

[Mergy]

We definitely play a rational game when you can fire two arrows from a bow at the same time, right? How about some guy with a musket who can fire it four times in six seconds?

I don't think that most people who play Pathfinder want realism. What they want is "fantasy realism", which is a different thing for different people. Ciretose, if a non-halfling reloading a sling as a free action breaks your verisimilitude, maybe you should just take a step back and look at some of the other aspects of this game that do the same for others.

In the end, I think most of us just want the ability to take Rapid Reload.

[Rory]

Mergy wrote:

In the end, I think most of us just want the ability to take Rapid Reload.

This.

And for the halfling racial sling to work with the halfling racial trait and feats.

[Nicos]

Not to mention that rapid reload not working with sling is incredible silly. The Dev teams have changed the rules sevral timesin the FAQs, not to mentions that have been changes that have a bigger effect over the game (like the SLA for presige classses) but no, rapid reload to sling was too much I suppose.

[Freehold DM]

Hm. Maybe...were looking in the wrong direction.

I apologize if this has been asked/put forth upthread, but maybe it would be a good idea to vary sling damage based on the ammo? Scuplted rocks aren't going to be as damaging as leaden bullets or ball bearings. Its very second ed, but it might help to heal the rift between both sides of this debate. Different types of slings could do different ranges, maybe?

[necromental]

Standard sling bullets are considered lead ones. Stones have damage and attack penalty.

[Furious Kender]

Freehold DM wrote:

Hm. Maybe...were looking in the wrong direction.

I apologize if this has been asked/put forth upthread, but maybe it would be a good idea to vary sling damage based on the ammo? Scuplted rocks aren't going to be as damaging as leaden bullets or ball bearings. Its very second ed, but it might help to heal the rift between both sides of this debate. Different types of slings could do different ranges, maybe?

That much investment would assume that people use the sling past levels 1 and 2, and that just isn't true at this point.

Just the fact that grenadier+bow (move action to load) and grenadier+bullet (move action to load) goes much better together than grenadier+sling (move+move to load) pretty well shows where the game is at. For me, it's like someone looking at grenades and thinking, "this would be really cool to put in a arrow/bullet" and then stating that grenade launchers break their verisimilitude.

Or the fact that someone can clean the barrel, pour powder,position the patch and ball, ram the ball, and prime the pan all as a single free action while moving and a non-halfing can put a rock in a pouch as a move action. Did I mention that the non-halfling cannot move while putting the rock in the pouch?

Just in case someone cannot see the difference, here's a video of THE free action to load a 1700s era rifle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CEbBv4U71M The video doesn't show priming the pan, but you still need to do that before you can fire a flintlock or matchlock.

[ciretose]

Rory wrote:

ciretose wrote:

And if I do that I have a melee and ranged weapon that I can focus all my skill points into.

This is true to a point, but there is a hidden cost.

If you take Sling Flail to have a melee and ranged weapon, you are actually splitting focus.

Example:

Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and Deadly Aim are staple for a ranged weapon. None of these help the melee attack. Power attack is the staple of the melee attack. This doesn't help the ranged side of the equation.

Power Attack is also a "cheap" stat investment for medium folk at 3 stat points. For halflings though, that requires 7 stat points, which is significantly more.

The bad part here though is that any class except the fighter has a really hard time to be a real slinger and sling flail champion. It just requires too many feats to accomplish.

Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Deadly Aim
Weapon Focus
Sling Flail
Power Attack

That's 13th level for most classes to achieve the "minimum", 9th level for rangers, and 6th level for fighters.

You are also doing two things with one weapon.

If you want to make a sling ranger archetype, ok. But being able to do all of those things with investment in only one weapon isn't insignificant.

[ciretose]

Mergy wrote:

Ciretose, if a non-halfling reloading a sling as a free action breaks your verisimilitude, maybe you should just take a step back and look at some of the other aspects of this game that do the same for others.

In the end, I think most of us just want the ability to take Rapid Reload.

It isn't reloading a sling that was nixed. It was reloading a sling-staff.

The reasoning, I assume, is why would a halfling use a sling if they could use a sling staff.

Also, Ammo drop.

[Furious Kender]

ciretose wrote:

Mergy wrote:

Ciretose, if a non-halfling reloading a sling as a free action breaks your verisimilitude, maybe you should just take a step back and look at some of the other aspects of this game that do the same for others.

In the end, I think most of us just want the ability to take Rapid Reload.

It isn't reloading a sling that was nixed. It was reloading a sling-staff.

No, non-halflings cannot load a sling as a free action. Halfling commoners can load a sling as a free action, but their fighters still take move action to load a sling staff.

Also, Ammo Drop only helps loading a double sling or a sling, and is obviously written to forbid full attacks with a sling. No other sling is helped out.

[Coriat]

ciretose wrote:

It isn't reloading a sling that was nixed. It was reloading a sling-staff.

The reasoning, I assume, is why would a halfling use a sling if they could use a sling staff.

Isn't this basically the exact design principle you have been arguing so strenuously against applying to the bow?

[ciretose]

Furious Kender wrote:

Also, Ammo Drop only helps loading a double sling or a sling, and is obviously written to forbid full attacks with a sling. No other sling is helped out.

Yes, it helps you load a sling. Which is what we are talking about. Then juggle load when you get three attacks.

Or Warslinger if you are a halfling.

[ciretose]

Coriat wrote:

ciretose wrote:

It isn't reloading a sling that was nixed. It was reloading a sling-staff.

The reasoning, I assume, is why would a halfling use a sling if they could use a sling staff.

Isn't this basically the exact design principle you have been arguing so strenuously against applying to the bow?

I suppose we should also make the short bow as good as the long bow and daggers do as much damage as greatswords?

[Freehold DM]

necromental wrote:

Standard sling bullets are considered lead ones. Stones have damage and attack penalty.

truly? Hm.

[Rory]

ciretose wrote:

You are also doing two things with one weapon.

I never said you don't get this extra versatility.

I simply identified the hidden costs to this gained versatility that are being hand-waived via theorycraft.

ciretose wrote:

If you want to make a sling ranger archetype, ok. But being able to do all of those things with investment in only one weapon isn't insignificant.

I don't want a sling ranger archetype.

I want Rapid Reload to be able to apply to any sling and for halfling racial sling traits and racial sling feats to apply to the halfling racial sling.

[ciretose]

Rory wrote:

I don't want a sling ranger archetype.

I want Rapid Reload to be able to apply to any sling and for halfling racial sling traits and racial sling feats to apply to the halfling racial sling.

And I want to eat ice cream and not get fat.

There is a feat that allows you to load a sling While you are slinging it around your head.

They said no to sling staff because then no one would use a sling rather than a sling stick, and they didn't want that. Why?

Because actually having classes and races use the iconic weapons is a good thing.

[Rory]

ciretose wrote:

The reasoning, I assume, is why would a halfling use a sling if they could use a sling staff.

A sling is a simple weapon for a halfling and the halfling sling staff is a martial weapon.

A lot of halflings are not proficient in halfling sling staff.

A better question: "Why are simple slings better than exotic racial weapon sling staffs for halfling warrior PCs?"

[Rory]

ciretose wrote:

Rory wrote:

I don't want a sling ranger archetype.

I want Rapid Reload to be able to apply to any sling and for halfling racial sling traits and racial sling feats to apply to the halfling racial sling.

And I want to eat ice cream and not get fat.

This type of exhaggeration statement is not helpful. Please refrain. Thank you.

ciretose wrote:

Because actually having classes and races use the iconic weapons is a good thing.

I agree 100%.

Tell me how a halfling warrior can use the halfling racial weapon as a ranged weapon (that is its purpose) as a weapon of choice for their career?

[Rory]

Coriat wrote:

ciretose wrote:

It isn't reloading a sling that was nixed. It was reloading a sling-staff.

The reasoning, I assume, is why would a halfling use a sling if they could use a sling staff.

Isn't this basically the exact design principle you have been arguing so strenuously against applying to the bow?

Good observation.

[LoneKnave]

ciretose wrote:

And I want to eat ice cream and not get fat.

There is a feat that allows you to load a sling While you are slinging it around your head.

It still falls pretty short of shooting 2 arrows at the same time imo.

[ciretose]

Rory wrote:

ciretose wrote:

The reasoning, I assume, is why would a halfling use a sling if they could use a sling staff.

A sling is a simple weapon for a halfling and the halfling sling staff is a martial weapon.

A lot of halflings are not proficient in halfling sling staff.

A better question: "Why are simple slings better than exotic racial weapon sling staffs for halfling warrior PCs?"

With a specific racial ability that makes them better with slings.

That is like asking why someone with weapon focus longsword is better at longswords.

[ciretose]

LoneKnave wrote:

ciretose wrote:

And I want to eat ice cream and not get fat.

There is a feat that allows you to load a sling While you are slinging it around your head.

It still falls pretty short of shooting 2 arrows at the same time imo.

Yes.

And I can't use a bow as a flail.

[Mergy]

Those abilities aren't comparable ciretose. Not to mention the fact that you can now use a bow as a quarterstaff.

Why exactly is the sling staff an exotic weapon when it is so much worse than a composite longbow? Sure you can use it as a club, but without that ranged full attack, it is an absolutely awful weapon when compared to the alternatives.

You know, if the reason the sling is worse than the longbow is because of the simple/martial thing, why is the longbow immune to the martial/exotic thing?

[Rory]

ciretose wrote:

Rory wrote:

A better question: "Why are simple slings better than exotic racial weapon sling staffs for halfling warrior PCs?"

With a specific racial ability that makes them better with slings.

The answer, for good or ill, is that the halfling sling staff lacks any ability to allow it to fire more than once per round.

This is a conscious design decision by the Paizo design team as verified by the FAQ on the Warslinger trait and identical wording in the sling specific feats.

Whether it is good game design for the one and only racial weapon of a race to not function as intended (a range weapon) for the life of the game? Well, I am on record thinking that it is bad game design and I hope (foolishly, maybe) that it will one day be corrected.

[necromental]

ciretose wrote:

LoneKnave wrote:

ciretose wrote:

And I want to eat ice cream and not get fat.

There is a feat that allows you to load a sling While you are slinging it around your head.

It still falls pretty short of shooting 2 arrows at the same time imo.

Yes.

And I can't use a bow as a flail.

is this your only argument? you can use a sling as a flail (IF you spend a feat) and so it deserves to be crappy in what it is - a ranged weapon? cause it's what i'm getting throughout this thread.

[Nicos]

ciretose wrote:

Coriat wrote:

ciretose wrote:

It isn't reloading a sling that was nixed. It was reloading a sling-staff.

The reasoning, I assume, is why would a halfling use a sling if they could use a sling staff.

Isn't this basically the exact design principle you have been arguing so strenuously against applying to the bow?

I suppose we should also make the short bow as good as the long bow and daggers do as much damage as greatswords?

The shortbow was more used historically. Your logic in this threads demands that the shortbow to be better than the longbow.

But, and this is very imoprtant, you can do with a shortbow things that you can not do with a longbow (mounted archery), and you can do things with a dagger (twf) that you can not with a great sword.

And those things are relevant.

Slings/crossbows are just bad bows without any significant advantage.

[Nicos]

Mergy wrote:

You know, if the reason the sling is worse than the longbow is because of the simple/martial thing, why is the longbow immune to the martial/exotic thing?

WEstern fanboy-ism.