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For S&G's, The Halfling Slingfighter
** spoiler omitted **
I have a some gold left, but I think this makes the general point.
Edited: Forgot armor, now corrected. Rush job, but as I said, makes the point.
You never bought ammo: if you use rocks you take a penalty to hit.
And remember only a loaded Sling can be used as a flail.And thus using rocks imparts their penalty to the melee version.
Oh no, where will I find the silver for bullets...
Also the main problem is sling ammo is freaking heavy. Although it is so cheap you can get all sling bullets cold iron for next to nothing. Also Rory I think you underestimate how important precise shot is at first level at that -4 penalty to hit from firing into melee is a big deal. Also the problem I have with halfling fighters is if you wear medium armor your move is only 15feet which is slow.
Also the problem I have with halfling fighters is if you wear medium armor your move is only 15feet which is slow.Armor training.
There's also the Fleet of Foot racial substitution to bump your speed up to 30.
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There's also the Fleet of Foot racial substitution to bump your speed up to 30.Also the problem I have with halfling fighters is if you wear medium armor your move is only 15feet which is slow.Armor training.
It takes the same replacement at Warslinger, so you would need another feat (ammo drop) to load the sling. Could be worth it, but it is another feat. At that point, you might as well go human and not lose the strength.
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two words: composite sling
a brand new 1.0 character with STR buffs can get a FREE ranged weapon with a STR bonus. so the range is only 50 feet? a 1d4+4 ranged damaged for free is pretty enticing, as opposed to 475gp for a 1d6+4 or 500gp for a 1d8+4 with composite bows.
plus, the sling is a simple weapon, not martial.
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I have a fighter/cleric of Calistria (no, not THAT kind of cleric of Calistria) who prefers whip or rapier, but will gladly use his Wand of Magic Stone and his sling for ranged attacks on undead. If he REALLY wants to hit, he casts his Luck domain spell of True Strike the round before.
It's only 2d6+2 magic damage, but there are times that this can be very nice, and each wand cast affects three pebbles. As a bonus, if the ranged undead closes in then my cleric can chose to throw the enchanted pebbles instead.
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I don't know what you guys are talking about. I built a pretty disgusting halfling wolfrider sling ranger recently around some of the new racial widgets. You have to have "warslinger" racial trait to make any of it work, but access to the Halfling Slinger feat (an addition +1, stacks with weapon focus) and also Large Target (+1 damage / size cat difference) separates you from the bow fighters. Throw in, say, beastmaster archetype and skirmisher archetype and put him on the back of a roving wolf mount, and you get to take your full sling attack while moving, and can do so in enclosed dungeon environments.
It takes the same replacement at Warslinger, so you would need another feat (ammo drop) to load the sling. Could be worth it, but it is another feat. At that point, you might as well go human and not lose the strength.There's also the Fleet of Foot racial substitution to bump your speed up to 30.Also the problem I have with halfling fighters is if you wear medium armor your move is only 15feet which is slow.Armor training.
Or you could buy boots of springing and striding but that takes place later. Although alternate build idea halfling luring cavaleir with a sling That is mounted so does not have mobility problems. Although not sure it has the feats.
merlferburque: That's true, but it's only useful at really low levels.
Honestly, if I where to do a remake on ranged weapons, I'd have preferred if they where like this:
Ranged rebalanced
The firearm stuff is a whole other ball of wax. I completely disagree with how that was handled and have voiced that in many other threads.
I argued that firearms should be more or less useless to non-gunslinger classes, and that only gunslingers should be able to fire them with high reload speed, and only with a high investment in gunslinger levels.
It should have been "the" class feature. Gunslingers get to actually be able to use guns effectively without the same risk everyone else has.
For everyone else, firearms should have been a high risk (could blow up in your face) one shot item that took time to reload. But they decided to make it something available to all classes without investment in gunslinger, which I think was a big mistake.
But that will have to be addressed in the next iteration, I suppose.
If it makes you feel better, firearms are terrible weapons unless you're a Gunslingers (or Trench Fighter)...
An exotic weapon with low range, low fire rate, high cost (about as much as a +1 weapon), expensive ammo, with innate fumble mechanics (that sometimes go beyond Natural 1s) and is incapable of adding any attribute to damage rolls...
Really, targeting touch AC is simply not worth the feat/gold investment unless you're a Gunslinger/Trench Fighter... Maybe a Rogue could carry one to make a single Sneak Attack in the 1st round of combat (for when she catches something with high natural armor flat-footed... But that's about it...
^That.
Firearms unless you're a Gunslinger or Trench Fighter (I've been having a lot of fun making builds that dip this archetype, though I still don't think they make it nearly as good as a straight Gunslinger) are basically Crossbows that blow up in your face. And arelike 20x as expensive. And require Exotic Weapon Proficiency.
Actually, that's EXACTLY what they are, except they have a better damage type and crit range.
And they suck for all the same reasons crossbows do, unless you're one of those two things up there.
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I built a pretty disgusting halfling wolfrider sling ranger recently around some of the new racial widgets. You have to have "warslinger" racial trait to make any of it work, but access to the Halfling Slinger feat (an addition +1, stacks with weapon focus) and also Large Target (+1 damage / size cat difference) separates you from the bow fighters. Throw in, say, beastmaster archetype and skirmisher archetype and put him on the back of a roving wolf mount, and you get to take your full sling attack while moving, and can do so in enclosed dungeon environments.
Part of the discussion was triggered by the FAQ clarifying that the Warslinger racial trait does not apply to the Halfling sling staff. Until last week, I was fairly happy with my Halfling Warslinger/weapon master fighter. But since her chosen weapon was sling staff and none of the "load a sling as a free action" traits or feats can apply to the sling staff, I haven't figured out whether I can "fix" her yet.
Throw in, say, beastmaster archetype and skirmisher archetype and put him on the back of a roving wolf mount, and you get to take your full sling attack while moving, and can do so in enclosed dungeon environments.
Is "your full sling attack" a mocking way to say, "a single sling attack?" Because reloading the sling takes a move action, so there's no way to get more than one shot.
Throw in, say, beastmaster archetype and skirmisher archetype and put him on the back of a roving wolf mount, and you get to take your full sling attack while moving, and can do so in enclosed dungeon environments.Is "your full sling attack" a mocking way to say, "a single sling attack?" Because reloading the sling takes a move action, so there's no way to get more than one shot.
Halflings are experts at the use of the sling. Halflings with this racial trait can reload a sling as a free action. Reloading a sling still requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity. This racial trait replaces sure-footed.
Throw in, say, beastmaster archetype and skirmisher archetype and put him on the back of a roving wolf mount, and you get to take your full sling attack while moving, and can do so in enclosed dungeon environments.Is "your full sling attack" a mocking way to say, "a single sling attack?" Because reloading the sling takes a move action, so there's no way to get more than one shot.Halflings are experts at the use of the sling. Halflings with this racial trait can reload a sling as a free action. Reloading a sling still requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity. This racial trait replaces sure-footed.
Ugh. Thanks for pointing that out, but now I'm even more frustrated. I like slings. I hate halflings. Why the heck can't a non-halfling be a decent slinger? That's racist. :P
I think there's a Feat too, but it requires another Feat as a prereq. Not sure though.
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I built a pretty disgusting halfling wolfrider sling ranger recently around some of the new racial widgets. You have to have "warslinger" racial trait to make any of it work, but access to the Halfling Slinger feat (an addition +1, stacks with weapon focus) and also Large Target (+1 damage / size cat difference) separates you from the bow fighters. Throw in, say, beastmaster archetype and skirmisher archetype and put him on the back of a roving wolf mount, and you get to take your full sling attack while moving, and can do so in enclosed dungeon environments.Part of the discussion was triggered by the FAQ clarifying that the Warslinger racial trait does not apply to the Halfling sling staff. Until last week, I was fairly happy with my Halfling Warslinger/weapon master fighter. But since her chosen weapon was sling staff and none of the "load a sling as a free action" traits or feats can apply to the sling staff, I haven't figured out whether I can "fix" her yet.
Oh freaking yuck.
I think I'll tactfully ignore telling my gaming group about that clarification.
Man, yeah, that sucks. Guess most of that Halfling expansion was wasted ink.
Throw in, say, beastmaster archetype and skirmisher archetype and put him on the back of a roving wolf mount, and you get to take your full sling attack while moving, and can do so in enclosed dungeon environments.Is "your full sling attack" a mocking way to say, "a single sling attack?" Because reloading the sling takes a move action, so there's no way to get more than one shot.
Warslinger.
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I don't know what you guys are talking about. I built a pretty disgusting halfling wolfrider sling ranger recently around some of the new racial widgets. You have to have "warslinger" racial trait to make any of it work, but access to the Halfling Slinger feat (an addition +1, stacks with weapon focus) and also Large Target (+1 damage / size cat difference) separates you from the bow fighters. Throw in, say, beastmaster archetype and skirmisher archetype and put him on the back of a roving wolf mount, and you get to take your full sling attack while moving, and can do so in enclosed dungeon environments.Part of the discussion was triggered by the FAQ clarifying that the Warslinger racial trait does not apply to the Halfling sling staff. Until last week, I was fairly happy with my Halfling Warslinger/weapon master fighter. But since her chosen weapon was sling staff and none of the "load a sling as a free action" traits or feats can apply to the sling staff, I haven't figured out whether I can "fix" her yet.Oh freaking yuck.
I think I'll tactfully ignore telling my gaming group about that clarification.
Man, yeah, that sucks. Guess most of that Halfling expansion was wasted ink.
It does seem a bit stupid that the halfling racial bonuses with slings don't apply to the halfling racial sling. I really don't get the logic behind Paizo's rules decisions sometimes.
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Well this isn't the first time a FAQ has made no sense and everyone ignored it. Such as that loony monk flurry FAQ that made zen archers actually physically contradictory and impossible to play.
Seems reasonable to me to just ignore it.
Well this isn't the first time a FAQ has made no sense and everyone ignored it. Such as that loony monk flurry FAQ that made zen archers actually physically contradictory and impossible to play.
Seems reasonable to me to just ignore it.
Yes, but it does chop the option off in PFS. In my home game I will certainly ignore it.
Honestly, with the last years major rulings, I feel official pathfinder has become worse. Before a ruling, ambiguous rules are up to the gms and groups to decide, but when the ruling is there it's there. And honestly I feel like they've become worse and worse.
Don't the guys that oversee PFS have the ability to overrule Paizo in creating league-wide "house rules?" I know they dumped all the custom gear creation rules, and they're pretty strict about WBL. Couldn't they also fix a couple of these problematic FAQs as well, for the purposes of their league?
Just curious. I've never played PFS, and don't really intend to. Just not my thing.
The PFS folks generally restrict more than the FAQs. I can't think of an instance in which they have opened up options closed by a FAQ.
It does seem a bit stupid that the halfling racial bonuses with slings don't apply to the halfling racial sling. I really don't get the logic behind Paizo's rules decisions sometimes.
Well, you don't want people to play halflings or use superior slings do you?
In PFS, they're like locusts. ;)
The PFS folks generally restrict more than the FAQs. I can't think of an instance in which they have opened up options closed by a FAQ.
By necessity.
To be able to play the same character at different tables all over the world, you need to know that all GMs interpret the gray areas the same way. Otherwise my poor little Halfling warslinger would kick butt one week and be completely useless the next, depending on the GM's reading. For me, it would be a lot worse to get blindsided by that switch in the middle of the first combat.
Sure, it's frustrating when a ruling goes a different way than you were hoping, but you don't play PFS unless you think that the benefits of organized play more than make up for the occasional annoyances of not being 100% in control.
Well this isn't the first time a FAQ has made no sense and everyone ignored it. Such as that loony monk flurry FAQ that made zen archers actually physically contradictory and impossible to play.
Seems reasonable to me to just ignore it.
Hey! That's not true! Zen Archers were not impossible to play, you just needed 4 arms to do it! :D
In 3.5 they had a feat: Ranged Disarm which allowed a disarm at range. Frankly, after all of this thread, that's all I'd really like to have for my slinger.
When I pitched this thread one of my fellow players in the game we're starting caught sight of it and flat out asked me: what do you SEE your Halfling doing w/the sling? When I thought about it, I didn't see my guy dealing out 2 shots +21 (1d3 +11). I saw a ranger, hidden in the forest who, at the signal of the party's leader whips a bullet from the shadows knocking a sword from the enemy's hand.
I picture bouncing/ricochet shots, disarms, single hits that make one devastating hit instead of a hail of bullets. I imagine at the highest level of skill being able to sunder weapons or even stun someone w/out killing them.
NONE of this is possible by RAW. I'll be working w/my GM since this is a home game, to see if we can houserule some stuff. Re-flavoring Rapid Shot to say it's bouncing a shot off one target into another or maybe allowing ranged Cleave/Great Cleave; allowing Ranged Disarm and similarly creating a Ranged Dirty Trick or Ranged Sunder; perhaps a Ranged Stunning Fist.
I don't need to be able to hit 4 times a round dealing 4d8 + 4d6 (fire) +48. Hitting with 2 potential stuns or shattering the BBEG's weapon would be just as cool.
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Would anyone demand that a person wielding a dagger do as good as a TH sword? Of course not. Why would expect that the cheap primitive shepherd's sling do as much as the most dangerous weapon in the middles-ages, the longbow?
The LB is simply the much superior weapon, and that's exactly how it should be. It should also be superior to the CB- as it WAS superior to the CB. But still, both the CB and the sling are decent options for some PC's.
The realism argument is not good.
Crossbows just have much more penetration power. The crossbow was so strong that the pope baned it.
Not really:
"29. We prohibit under anathema that murderous art of crossbowmen and archers, which is hateful to God, to be employed against Christians and Catholics from now on. "
Thus Pope Innocent II tried to stop Catholics from shooting each other. With anything.
Also Jousting:14. We entirely forbid, moreover, those abominable jousts and tournaments in which knights come together by agreement and rashly engage in showing off their physical prowess and daring, and which often result in human deaths and danger to souls. If any of them dies on these occasions, although penance and viaticum are not to be denied him when he requests them, he is to be deprived of a church burial.
The crossbow is the ranged weapon of choice for people who aren't proficient with longbows and who don't have particularly high strength.
Which is pretty consistent with what a crossbow was.
With one feat the sling is both a ranged weapon that adds strength damage and a melee weapon. So you can get that +3 sling rather than two +2 weapons. Oh, and your weapon focus, specialization, etc...all on one weapon.
And as I said, you are walking around with basically a piece of cloth rather than the more obvious Giant Sword.
Nonsense. I own a modern steel crossbow (as well as several bows of various types), and strength is a major attribute for the dedicated crossbow user. Even with a winch, your rate of fire will depend on it. Pre-firearms crossbows didn't have modern winches and generally used footstraps and levers, which was hard work. That's not even getting into the fact that crossbows are beastly heavy. Unless you are holed up in a fortified ditch, a guy with a crossbow is much more likely to be run down than the same guy with a bow.
Then again, to be realistic we should have the size of composite bow (and thrown weapon) range increments be dependant on strength, and I doubt that a lot of people would actually want that kind of realism.
Little note on slings: I've made a little build with a double sling; in theory, it can shoot out as many projetiles as a zen archer, and with the right fighter archetype, it can have even more accuracy. It is feat intensive, but it's doable (for a fighter anyway).
Voila:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qa4o?PseudoZen-slinger#2
Sorry for the link. I posted it up earlier but it didnt seem to get any attention. It's seeing this thread that made me want to build it.
Well, there are "alchemical bullets" for slings; it's in the special ammo section on the d20pfsrd, for about 180 gp you can get a special bullet in which you can fit an alchemical item (like a tanglefoot bag, or alchemist's fire.