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It looks like my suggestion that we stop focusing on why the flaw exists and start focusing on how to fix it was ignored. I'm guessing I wasn't the first person to make that suggestion, either.
Maybe a new thread should be made for coming up with ideas to equalize this weapon so those who want to use it either "realistically" or "thematically" can do so. Heck, I don't even care if the sling staff's equal to or better than bows as long as it can be made a relatively practical option.
But keep in mind, guys, there are different classes of Exotic Weapons. There are the kamas and sianghams, which only monks are really meant to use, and there are the elven curve blades, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers and halfling slingstaves. These are supposed to be at least viable options, if not superior ones. That's why the familiarity is a racial ability and not a racial trap for those who don't know the system.
The gnome hooked hammer? It can be used fairly effectively, I'd say. Elven curve blade has obvious advantages, since it allows Weapon Finesse. The urgrosh has plenty of little bonuses. Note that these weapons aren't necessarily the best, but they're specialized so that their race can handle them effectively.
The sling staff's only real advantage is its melee compatibility, and we all know that's not very useful at all. It's the only one of the racial weapons to truly be a trap. A halfling fighter is better off with a crossbow or, ideally, a composite longbow.
A shortbow wielded by an average warrior does not deal out enough damage to kill an average warrior, yet we know that they did.You appear to missing what I am saying. The fact that the weapon does not act as it did in real life points makes slings wrongly modelled if you are looking for realism.
A Sling wielded by a average warrior does 1D4+1. The shortbow does 1d6. The damage is the same.Umm, no it isn't. 1d4 (it is 1d4 by the way, not 1d4+1, you only get +1 if you have a STR bonus which most people don't get) is not the same as 1d6. 1d4+1 is not the same as 1d6 either. 1d6 is the same as 1d6.
Other than manyshot, what feats are unavilable to slingers?Are you saying that a fully optimised character can be equally as good with a sling as with a bow? Because I will call BS if you are.
Umm, no. The standard array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. We’d expect warriors to have at least a 12 in str. Pretty much everyone else accept this. The suggested Warrior NPCs all have at least a str of 12, the average given is 14. Slings add str, shortbows don’t.
Again, other than manyshot, what feats are unavailable to slingers? You made the claim “On the other side of the coin, there are not the Feats or abilities to make the sling into a Weapon of Awesomeness for those who want to travel the mythic warrior superhero route. If these Feats and abilities are available to archers, what is the logic in not allowing them to be available to slingers?” So, other than one feat, which are the other feats?
I'm using warrior to mean someone who is fighting, rather that the Warrior NPC class. Most slings were used by skirmishers who were young and/or agile rather than powerfully built. In most cultures the skirmish line was somewhere you served if you weren't considered ready for the melee line.
Therefore, an historical warrior (not Warrior) using a sling would (in PF terms), be DEX rather than STR-heavy.
hm.
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It looks like my suggestion that we stop focusing on why the flaw exists and start focusing on how to fix it was ignored. I'm guessing I wasn't the first person to make that suggestion, either.
But keep in mind, guys, there are different classes of Exotic Weapons. There are the kamas and sianghams, which only monks are really meant to use, and there are the elven curve blades, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers and halfling slingstaves. These are supposed to be at least viable options, if not superior ones. That's why the familiarity is a racial ability and not a racial trap for those who don't know the system.
The sling staff's only real advantage is its melee compatibility, and we all know that's not very useful at all. It's the only one of the racial weapons to truly be a trap. A halfling fighter is better off with a crossbow or, ideally, a composite longbow.
Your comment wasn't ignored. Rapid reload for slings was the main suggested starting point by numerous posters. A Richocet Shot feat (instead of Manyshot) that is similar to the spell would be my other suggestion.
Also, the devs have stated they intentionally made it so that halfling fighters were better off with a xbow or longbow because those weapons are superior. This in and of itself annoying. As a fantasy campaign, slings should have some redeeming characteristic for PCs above level 1 or 2.
What also bothers people is that if you make a halfling fighter slinger, you are better off with the sling than the sling staff. A 20th level halfling fighter cannot even move, shoot once, and reload in the same turn with a sling staff. In contrast, with a sling they could move, shoot once, and reload, or take 4 attacks in a full attack. Hence, for a PC, the sling staff is a trap based on the lure of a DPR increase at very early levels, illusionary melee capability, and illusionary increases in range.
In theorycraft, it's nearly as powerful as a composite longbow and a long sword.More like a club and a light crossbow. :/
It looks like my suggestion that we stop focusing on why the flaw exists and start focusing on how to fix it was ignored.
There is no "flaw” thus no need to “fix” anything. Yes, a cool halfing archetype would be nice. There could be a feat or two for slings, but honestly, they are not popular enough to justify it. I am OK with them doing them, like allowing the halfing racial ability for other races as a feat, allowing rapid reload as a feat, etc, but there’s really no call for it. Sure there's thsi thread here, but there's what, less than a half-dozen sling enthuisasts?
I'm using warrior to mean someone who is fighting, rather that the Warrior NPC class. Most slings were used by skirmishers who were young and/or agile rather than powerfully built. In most cultures the skirmish line was somewhere you served if you weren't considered ready for the melee line.
Therefore, an historical warrior (not Warrior) using a sling would (in PF terms), be DEX rather than STR-heavy.
Yeah, but that depends heavily on what level demographics you have. Generally pathfinder assumes a relatively high level distribution; being level 1 is being a rookie. Also note my array distribution did not include the racial bonus, so a dex of 14 is very possible. According to the NPC gallery, this is reasonable for a "low level archer soldier".
It has a similar array to what I proposed, with racial going to dex and being a bit smarter but a bit less wise.
Right the NPC gallery shows the average of archer types to have a 13 str and a 14 dex. Sure, that's "dex heavy" but they still have at least a +1 str bonus.
One good solution could be to simply make halflings automatically proficient with sling staves. At least then the halflings being proficient with them is an advantage, instead of, yeah, a trap.
DrDeth's suggestion for a new archetype has a lot of merit. Yes, I'm passive-aggressively only responding to his second sentence, since the rest of his post is basically, "This thread doesn't have enough supporters to merit any house rules." ;)
The ideas I've heard are:
Umm, no. The standard array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. We’d expect warriors to have at least a 12 in str. Pretty much everyone else accept this. The suggested Warrior NPCs all have at least a str of 12, the average given is 14. Slings add str, shortbows don’t.
Again, other than manyshot, what feats are unavailable to slingers? You made the claim “On the other side of the coin, there are not the Feats or abilities to make the sling into a Weapon of Awesomeness for those who want to travel the mythic warrior superhero route. If these Feats and abilities are available to archers, what is the logic in not allowing them to be available to slingers?” So, other than one feat, which are the other feats?
It's interesting how you simply ignored my post which showed you why your example was wrong, and chose to focus on a tangential topic with no real relevance to the question at hand.
But on difference in feats: The free Ammo Drop and Juggle Load that all bows get is a pretty big deal. And Improved Critical for a bow increases damage by about 10%, while for a slinger it increases it with about 5%. Similar is true for Critical Focus.
Which of course makes a big difference for how it plays out over the levels.
Looking before ability modifiers, at 6th level, an archer fighter is looking at something like 3 attacks at +3/+3/-2 for 4 arrows each dealing 1d8+4+Str (Weapon Focus (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will). At 6th level, a slinger fighter is looking at three attacks at +4/+4/-1 for three bullets each dealing 1d4+Str (Ammo Drop, Juggle Load, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will). That's a HUGE difference in efficiency.
Might I ask where Ammo Drop and Juggle Load are from? I can't find them on the PRD.
Also, Ilja, you've got a couple mistypes that make your point a bit unclear.
It looks like my suggestion that we stop focusing on why the flaw exists and start focusing on how to fix it was ignored.There is no "flaw” thus no need to “fix” anything. Yes, a cool halfing archetype would be nice. There could be a feat or two for slings, but honestly, they are not popular enough to justify it. I am OK with them doing them, like allowing the halfing racial ability for other races as a feat, allowing rapid reload as a feat, etc, but there’s really no call for it. Sure there's thsi thread here, but there's what, less than a half-dozen sling enthuisasts?
By not having a flaw, do you mean that you believe it should take two feats for a human with a sling to do what a human with a bow can do for free? That Ammo Drop should only work for 2 of the 5 slings in pathfinder? That halflings should be penalized for using their racial weapons?
I would agree that there is no call for it, unless you see these threads that keep popping up as calls for it. It's not fix the monk frequency, but sling threads do keep appearing.
If you make slings usable and decent, people will use them. If you make slings suck, people won't use them.
I wanted to make a alchemist using the flask thrower, but I realized it would be a nightmare in PFS as the rules aren't at all clear so I made a normal alchemist thrower. I had a friend in PFS who left because he kept getting hassled about his halfling with a halfling sling staff. If these experiences make me a "sling enthusiast," so be it.
Might I ask where Ammo Drop and Juggle Load are from? I can't find them on the PRD.
Also, Ilja, you've got a couple mistypes that make your point a bit unclear.
Halflings of golarion.
Not sure what you mean, except I accidentally typed arrows instead of bullets at one point. Might be missing something though, really really tired.
By the way, this thread has inspired me to make my next PFS character a halfling fighter with a sling staff. At the least it'll draw attention to the problem, assuming he makes it to higher levels. ;D
It really is a pity Halflings of Golarion didn't do something to help out the weapon, though. Seems that was a great opportunity.
Might I ask where Ammo Drop and Juggle Load are from? I can't find them on the PRD.
Also, Ilja, you've got a couple mistypes that make your point a bit unclear.
Halflings of golarion.
Not sure what you mean, except I accidentally typed arrows instead of bullets at one point. Might be missing something though, really really tired.
Aha! Figures I find that out after saying HoG was useless. XD
Are these feats PFS legal? Also, slings get referenced a lot. Do feats like "Halfling Slinger" also apply to sling staves?
Aha! Figures I find that out after saying HoG was useless. XD
Are these feats PFS legal? Also, slings get referenced a lot. Do feats like "Halfling Slinger" also apply to sling staves?
Well, it's two feats for rapid reload. I think it IS quite useless.
Nope, wouldn't seem so. The warslinger racial trait does not apply to anything but standard slings, and the explanation was that it says "a sling", not "any sling". And halfling slinger says "a sling".
The "strength" of Ammo Drop and Juggle Load has not been mentioned that I've seen. They allow a slinger to walk around and fire while carrying a heavy shield. The slinger has a HUGE AC potential advantage due to this.
Why it was designed to push this advantage on the sling is beyond me. An advantage, wanted or not, that delays the character from operating as intended by 2 to 4 levels is fairly expensive.
You need a free hand to reload, so sling and heavy shield doesn't work. This makes sling users use the buckler, which xbow and bow users can also use without a penalty.
You need a free hand to reload, so sling and heavy shield doesn't work. This makes sling users use the buckler, which xbow and bow users can also use without a penalty.
It's kind of weird actually - Ammo Drop allows you to reload as a swift action with a single hand, and Juggle Load requires Ammo Drop and allows you to reload as a free action but does not do it with one hand.
So you can actually use a sling with heavy shield, but only shoot once per round.
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Okay, looks like an FAQ confirmed that the feats can't be used for sling staves, and therefore in PFS games are pretty much useless.
In the words of another, "Because...slings needed to be nerfed."
It'd be really nice to get an explanation from Paizo. All this--the two feats being required, the distinction between sling staves and slings--make about as much sense as...well, something really, really stupid. What is the logic behind it? What made the designers say, "Uh-oh, we can't allow this, this will surely ruin our intricately crafted lore!"
Do they just hate halflings?
That's a dead serious question, by the way. Pathfinder gave the game developers the chance to make halflings a less underpowered race. They chose to keep halflings about as bad as the kobold race. Even I know that sucks. They added sling staves, but appear to have gone to pains to keep them inconvenient. And slings are harder to load than crossbows.
In full seriousness, did Paizo want to discourage halflings from being used in combat-heavy games?
Since my post got a bit long, maybe I should boil things down to one simple question...
What is the DEAL with slings?
Why doe you need Ammo drop since with a halfling reloading a sling is a free action with a racial trait?
In other words, halfings get both those feats for free.
Or is the argument here really about Sling staffs? That's entirely a different argument.
There, I agree the FAQ about warslinger (ha, it's in the ARG not the APG FAQ) could be re-thought.
And, before PF, in all my 40 years of playing, other than as a back-up weapon (and slings still excell at this) or for a halfing, I don't remember ANYONE playing a slinger. Not in ODD, AD&D, 3.5, 4th or any edition. Nor in C&S, T&T, Runequest, Fantasy hero or any of a dozen other FRP games. So it's not just PF, it's not even just D&D, it's FRPG's in general.
Oh, and in my miniature wargames, the sling was also inferior to the bow in every single rules-set with one exception where all ranged weapons were the same. So, it's not even a FRPG trope, it's that way in wargaming in general.
Okay, yeah, that's pretty awesome. I guess Paizo just hates sling staves.
Currently, the build I'm thinking will just wield a sling and take all those racial sling feats, Weapon Focus, and PBS. He'll use masterwork ammo instead of a masterwork sling so when the new staff comes out he hasn't wasted too much. When the staff comes out, he'll get Risky Striker and start investing in melee compatibility.
You need a free hand to reload, so sling and heavy shield doesn't work. This makes sling users use the buckler, which xbow and bow users can also use without a penalty.It's kind of weird actually - Ammo Drop allows you to reload as a swift action with a single hand, and Juggle Load requires Ammo Drop and allows you to reload as a free action but does not do it with one hand.
So you can actually use a sling with heavy shield, but only shoot once per round.
If that were the official intepretation, and I'm not saying it's not, then yes, a heavy shield could not be used.
Until I see officially otherwise, I'll interpret it as Juggle Load adjusting the load time that is set by Ammo Drop (the required feat). The other wording from Ammo Drop therefore still applies.
There really isn't much room for interpretation - the feats are crystal clear as to what they do. If the wording on Ammo Drop was "You can reload a sling as a move action or a swift action. Also, reloading a sling only requires one hand." then I'd agree with you, but the wording is "You can load a sling or one end of a double sling with one hand as a swift action or move action."; it's a very specific ability you gain. Also note that both feats state that it does not provoke an attack of opportunity - if Juggle Load only modified Ammo Drop, that would not be needed. Rather, they are clearly written as two different abilities dealing with sling reloading - one allowing reloading as a free action, the other allowing reloading with a single hand as a swift action.
Technically, the feats Ammo Drop and Juggle Load could still apply to the halfling sling staff.By the way, this thread has inspired me to make my next PFS character a halfling fighter with a sling staff. At the least it'll draw attention to the problem, assuming he makes it to higher levels. ;D
It really is a pity Halflings of Golarion didn't do something to help out the weapon, though. Seems that was a great opportunity.
Not really. The argument FOR warslinger affecting the sling staff was that "sling" would be used in a general sense, much like how "sword" or "axe" can be used to refer to anything named sword/axe. However, AD/JL state "a sling or double sling", clearly indicating sling as not being in the general but specific sense.
Why doe you need Ammo drop since with a halfling reloading a sling is a free action with a racial trait?
In other words, halfings get both those feats for free.
So then the damage is 1d8+4+Str vs 1d3+4+Str, where Str is also 1 less than otherwise.
In other words, it still sucks to be a slinger, halfling or not. The difference between a total damage of say (assuming str 16/14 for archer/slinger) 4d8+16+12 vs 3d3+12+6 is pretty huge. And no +1 to hit is going to make up for it.
Sure there's thsi thread here, but there's what, less than a half-dozen sling enthuisasts?
Just because only a few pro-sling people are participating in this thread does not mean that there are not a lot of sling enthusiasts playing Pathfinder.
Crossbows can be used as melee weapons.Rapid Reload. Why do crossbows get a single feat to reload as a free action (despite it being quite the process) while a slinger needs two from a random splatbook?Because crossbows don't add strength and can't be used as a melee weapon.
OMG bro, SERIOUSLY? A MOVE action and some coins? [Gob]C'MON![/Gob]
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And, before PF, in all my 40 years of playing, other than as a back-up weapon (and slings still excell at this) or for a halfing, I don't remember ANYONE playing a slinger. Not in ODD, AD&D, 3.5, 4th or any edition. Nor in C&S, T&T, Runequest, Fantasy hero or any of a dozen other FRP games. So it's not just PF, it's not even just D&D, it's FRPG's in general.Oh, and in my miniature wargames, the sling was also inferior to the bow in every single rules-set with one exception where all ranged weapons were the same. So, it's not even a FRPG trope, it's that way in wargaming in general.
That just shows that for 40 years game designers have displayed a mixture of historical inaccuracy, ignorance and deliberate bias towards the sling.
The point someone above made about heavy crossbows potentially being faster to reload in Pathfinder than certain types of slings sums it up.
I wouldn't expect to see slings out-damaging a long bow, but historically standard slings were essentially as effective as short bows. Maybe it was slower to reload and fire accurately as a bow. But when one feat can let someone reload and fire a hand or light crossbow multiple times in a round yet slingers need two and archers get it for free then something is wrong.
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And, before PF, in all my 40 years of playing, other than as a back-up weapon (and slings still excell at this) or for a halfing, I don't remember ANYONE playing a slinger. Not in ODD, AD&D, 3.5, 4th or any edition. Nor in C&S, T&T, Runequest, Fantasy hero or any of a dozen other FRP games. So it's not just PF, it's not even just D&D, it's FRPG's in general.
Oh, and in my miniature wargames, the sling was also inferior to the bow in every single rules-set with one exception where all ranged weapons were the same. So, it's not even a FRPG trope, it's that way in wargaming in general.
In all your years roleplaying, nobody has used a sling. And in every rpg, the sling is inferior to the bow. So, you don't think that maybe there's some correlation there? That maybe the sling was unpopular because it is inferior mechanically?
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Since my post got a bit long, maybe I should boil things down to one simple question...
What is the DEAL with slings?
I KNOW right?
Anyways, I'm hoping Paizo amends the sling staff disparity sometime. I just planned out my character. Here he is at fifth level:
Feats: Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Halfling Slinger, Weapon Focus (sling), Deadly Aim
Racial Trait Substitutions: Warslinger (duh)
Abilities: 18 Dex, 14 Str, 14 Con, 10 Int, 9 Wis, 9 Cha
Attacks: +11/+11, 1d3+10/1d3+10 (including Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim and assuming a +1 weapon)
So on average, he has two highly accurate attacks that do about 11 damage each. Note that I'm ignoring Weapon Specialization to maximize potential retraining, so it could be a bit better.
Let me compare that with a quick human fighter-composite longbow build using the same Point Buy...
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, [some inconsequential feat this guy can afford to take], Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization
Abilities: 18 Dex, 16 Str, 14 Con, 10 Int, 9 Wis, 7 Cha
Attacks: +8/+8, 1d8+10/1d8+10 (including same bonuses)
So just going off raw "assuming each attack hits" (since I'm no expert on DPR calculation), the archer does an average of 29 damage and the halfling does an average of about 23. The halfling's advantage is a 15% greater chance of hitting on his attacks, of course, but the archer has the additional x3 crit which, I'd say, evens things out nicely.
All in all, it's not as bad as I thought. Once you get to higher levels, you're in slightly better shape. Low levels, though? It's really ugly. Like, your contribution is more negligible than a kobold barbarian's. You're struggling to deal 5 damage until level 4.
And keep in mind all that's halfling-only. A human has to buy several extra feats just to use the iterative attacks from Rapid Shot/high BAB. The damage increase from size? About +1.75. Yes, that's the entire benefit of getting a medium sling without any strength penalties.
In Pathfinder's mythology, Goliath was full-attacked by a composite longbow.
Oh, you're right, my bad. I've never actually played an archer before, I just know they're a Big Deal. ;D