Sunblade vs Undead

[Pirate]

Yar!

The Sunblade states: "Against Negative Energy Plane creatures or undead creatures, the sword deals double damage (and ×3 on a critical hit instead of the usual ×2)."

Is the bracketed note about critical hits an affirmation of the normal rules for multiple multipliers of damage, or is it actually a modification of the weapons normal crit multiplier?

ie: When I crit against an Undead creature with a Sunblade, do I do x2+x2=x3 damage, or do I do x2+x3=x4 damage?

~P

[awp832]

The Sun Blade's weapon damage is 1d10. Against undead it is 2d10.

A critical hit against a normal creature is 2d10.
A critical hit against an undead creature is 6d10.

[Kazaan]

What he's asking is if the x3 instead of x2 is an extension of the doubling effect in such a way that a x3 crit weapon would go to x5 and a x4 crit weapon would go to x7, or if it's only x2 crit weapons that go to x3, full_stop. Honestly, it's entirely ambiguous as to whether the clause in parenthesis is exemplary or exhaustive. You have my FAQ.

[awp832]

.. i don't understand. Why would this matter? Sunblade has a x3 critical vs undead.

[Starglim]

The sunblade is a x2 crit weapon, since it's a specific named item that does damage as a bastard sword. If your GM gives you a sunblade-style weapon that normally has a x3 or x4 crit, ask her how her custom item works.

Against an undead, its critical multiplier is x3 rather than the usual x2, so 3d10 rather than 2d10. If not for this ability, its critical hit against an undead would do nothing more than an ordinary hit.

If you chose to ignore the written rule "rather than the usual x2" (as seems to be happening lamentably often in recent threads), multipliers would stack in the normal Pathfinder manner, as a critical hit on a lance charge does. x2 and x3 stack to x4.

[DM Beckett]

The Sun Blade changes the base damage from 1d10 to 2d10 against Undead and Negative Energy Creatures, and also, separately, has a x3 crit rather than a x2 against those creatures.

[Pirate]

Yar!

So, I think we can all agree on the basic pre-'crit vs Undead' damage rolls, which are as follows:

Normal vs most things: 1d10+2
Crit vs most things: 2d10+4

Normal vs Evil: 1d10+4
Crit vs Evil: 2d10+8

Normal vs Undead: 2d10+8

__________

Now this is where the discrepancies start to emerge. So far it seems we have the following opinions of the rules:

Crit vs Undead: 3d10+12 <- (this assumes the bracketed text is simply a clarification of the rules for adding multiple multipliers to damage, and is thus superfluous text)
Crit vs Undead: 4d10+16 <- (this assume the bracketed text is a specific increase to the crit multiplier of the weapon, which is then added to the already doubled base damage as per the Multiplying Damage rules)
Crit vs Undead: 6d10+24 <- (this assumes that the first doubling is treated as a new base, and the potential crit then multiplies that value as if it were never doubled in the first place)

So really, which one is it? The actual rules as intended is only one of them, not all three. This ambiguity is for the Sunblade as it is written. I wasn't even considering the Sunblade as a property to apply to other weapons (though if that houserule does get used, clarification on this will only help in those situations as well).

Starglim: I tried to get the lance confusion sorted out HERE a while ago. It got mostly ignored.

~P

[Pirate]

Yar!

So... no one knows? Or perhaps everyone thinks they know and do not care about ambiguity or the fact that others thinks something radically different, as can be seen in this thread by the few posters already here having given radically different answers (3d10 and 6d10, while I think it should be 4d10)? Or maybe few people have actually seen this thread? (and in that light... *bump*)

~P

[Ughbash]

Good question.

I have no idea.

Faq'd.

[Quantum Steve]

Pirate wrote:

__________

Now this is where the discrepancies start to emerge. So far it seems we have the following opinions of the rules:

Crit vs Undead: 3d10+12 <- (this assumes the bracketed text is simply a clarification of the rules for adding multiple multipliers to damage, and is thus superfluous text)
Crit vs Undead: 4d10+16 <- (this assume the bracketed text is a specific increase to the crit multiplier of the weapon, which is then added to the already doubled base damage as per the Multiplying Damage rules)
Crit vs Undead: 6d10+24 <- (this assumes that the first doubling is treated as a new base, and the potential crit then multiplies that value as if it were never doubled in the first place)

~P

Given that Sunblade says "double" and the language for multiplying multipliers, I can't see how it could possibly be 6d10+24.

As for 3d10+12 vs. 4d10+16, parenthetical phrases are by definition explanatory or qualifying, so I would say this text is no different and the Sun Blade deals 3d10+12 to Evil Undead (3d10+6 to non-Evil Undead).

[Nether Saxon]

I don't think it works that way, you're bringing too much math into it.
The base damage of a Sunblade doesn't change against any target - you simply roll your damage as normal (1d10+pluses), then simply double the result for the special targets mentioned in the description.
In case of a crit, you roll damage as usual, then triple for the crit instead of doubling it (again, for the special targets omentioned in the description, yadda yadda). Simple. ;)

[Kazaan]

Starglim wrote:

The sunblade is a x2 crit weapon, since it's a specific named item that does damage as a bastard sword. If your GM gives you a sunblade-style weapon that normally has a x3 or x4 crit, ask her how her custom item works.

It's important because there are some abilities that can increase your crit multiplier.

PRD wrote:

Deadly Critical (Ex): At 13th level, when a weapon master confirms a critical hit with his chosen weapon, he can increase the weapon's damage multiplier by +1 as an immediate action. He can use this ability once per day at 13th level, plus one additional time per day for every three levels above 13th. This ability replaces weapon training 3.

A Weapon Master, with bastard sword as his chosen weapon, can increase it from a x2 crit weapon to a x3 crit weapon when he confirms a crit. If the Sunblade's special is "doubling" the crit damage, then Deadly Critical takes it from a x2 crit to a x3 crit weapon which is then doubled to net a x5 crit weapon. But if the special is "increasing" the x2 crit to x3, then Weapon Master, in turn takes it one more step from x3 to x4. In the end, it's the difference between a x4 crit Sunblade and a x5 crit Sunblade so, yes, it is quite important to know how to adjudicate it.

[Tuffon]

I guess you are asking,I my DM would put the same ability on an item that already does x3 critical damage, what would happen.

If it does x3 then increase the multiplier to x4 when fighting negative energy undead( or what ever condition the wepaon is made for)

If the base weapon does x4 damage ( add a +1 to the multiplier, so x4 would become x5).

I cant think of any ability in this game that would ever multiply a crtical value by itself. All simliar abilites have always been to step up the bonus by an addtional count. (event the 3.0 D%D weapon master didnt multiple a x2 to a x4 and that class was so broke they did away with it when 3.5 came out, same thing with deepwood sniper from that era)

[Lord Pendragon]

It seems fairly straightforward. It deals double damage versus nep creatures and undead on a normal hit. On a critical hit, its crit multiplier versus such creatures is x3 instead of x2. On a crit, you do not deal double damage *and* get a x3 crit multiplier, you just get the x3 crit multiplier.

Basically, versus nep and undead critters, the sunblade deals one more application of damage, whether on a normal or critical hit.

[Kazaan]

Lord Pendragon wrote:

It seems fairly straightforward. It deals double damage versus nep creatures and undead on a normal hit. On a critical hit, its crit multiplier versus such creatures is x3 instead of x2. On a crit, you do not deal double damage *and* get a x3 crit multiplier, you just get the x3 crit multiplier.

Basically, versus nep and undead critters, the sunblade deals one more application of damage, whether on a normal or critical hit.

Um, no. It clearly says it deals double damage and gets 3x crit multiplier. If the 3x crit multiplier was simply reflecting getting 2x damage + 2x crit = 3x total damage, it would state that the bonus damage isn't increased by a critical and wouldn't bring up a change in crit multiplier. The manner in which it's written indicates that you get both benefits. The question at hand is whether it's "double damage" that's, in turn, doubling the crit value from x2 to x3 or merely a separate bonus. Considering that the increased crit value is listed in parentheses after the doubling clause, I'd venture as to say that doubling the damage is, in turn, doubling your crit.

So, by default, it's a 1d10 weapon.
vs NEP creatures and Undead, it's doubled to 2d10.
vs normal creatures on a crit, you double 1d10 to 2d10.
vs NEP/Undead on a crit, you double 1d10 to 2d10, double crit from x2 to x3, then apply the x3 crit for 2d10 + 2d10 + 2d10 = 6d10.
with Deadly Critical vs normal creatures on a crit, you triple 1d10 to 3d10.
with Deadly Critical vs NEP/Undead on a crit, you double 1d10 to 2d10, increase x2 to x3, then double x3 to x5, then apply the x5 crit for 2d10 x5 = 10d10

[Quantum Steve]

Kazaan wrote:

Lord Pendragon wrote:

It seems fairly straightforward. It deals double damage versus nep creatures and undead on a normal hit. On a critical hit, its crit multiplier versus such creatures is x3 instead of x2. On a crit, you do not deal double damage *and* get a x3 crit multiplier, you just get the x3 crit multiplier.

Basically, versus nep and undead critters, the sunblade deals one more application of damage, whether on a normal or critical hit.

Um, no. It clearly says it deals double damage and gets 3x crit multiplier. If the 3x crit multiplier was simply reflecting getting 2x damage + 2x crit = 3x total damage, it would state that the bonus damage isn't increased by a critical and wouldn't bring up a change in crit multiplier. The manner in which it's written indicates that you get both benefits. The question at hand is whether it's "double damage" that's, in turn, doubling the crit value from x2 to x3 or merely a separate bonus. Considering that the increased crit value is listed in parentheses after the doubling clause, I'd venture as to say that doubling the damage is, in turn, doubling your crit.

Actually, the bit about x3 on a crit is clearly a parenthetical.

When it says

Quote:

(and ×3 on a critical hit instead of the usual ×2)

the parenthetical is explaining (that's what parenthetical do (like this one!)) that on a crit you do x3 damage because double damage + a x2 crit equals x3 damage.

So, by default, it's a 1d10 weapon.
vs NEP creatures and Undead, it's doubled to 2d10.
vs normal creatures on a crit, you double 1d10 to 2d10.
vs NEP/Undead on a crit, you double 1d10 to 2d10, then double it again (x2 crit) for a total of x3 on a crit, 1d10 + 1d10 + 1d10 = 3d10.
with Deadly Critical vs normal creatures on a crit, you triple 1d10 to 3d10.
with Deadly Critical vs NEP/Undead on a crit, you double 1d10 to 2d10, increase x2 to x3 (ala Deadly Crits), then apply the x3 crit plus the double damage for 2d10 x4 = 4d10

Quote:

vs NEP/Undead on a crit, you double 1d10 to 2d10, double crit from x2 to x3, then apply the x3 crit for 2d10 + 2d10 + 2d10 = 6d10.

with Deadly Critical vs normal creatures on a crit, you triple 1d10 to 3d10.

Even if it was double damage and a x3 crit (it's not ('cause of parentheticals)), a x2 and a x3 make a x4. You need to review the section on multipliers. There's a link up thread somewhere.

Quote:

with Deadly Critical vs NEP/Undead on a crit, you double 1d10 to 2d10, increase x2 to x3, then double x3 to x5, then apply the x5 crit for 2d10 x5 = 10d10

I have no idea what you're doing here, you've got multipliers coming out of both ends. Anyway, it's wrong.

[MrRed]

Dont make it too complicated, as some others already said in short:

normal enemies:
d10+bonus regular damage, 2 times (d10+bonus) on a crit
undead:
2 times (d10+bonus) regular, 3 times (d10+bonus) on a crit.

Bonus comes from weapon bonus (more for evil enemies), feats, strength etc. IMHO pretty straightforward as D&D does not multiply but add multipliers.

[Turgan]

I believe it is (critting undead or nep): 6d10+24+4 x strength mod.(or 6 x strength mod. if THW)

reason: it's not about adding multipliers (like x2 + x2 = x3); you have a new base damage, this base damage is multiplied by three on a crit.

At least, that's how I'd Interpret the text. FAQ'ed.

[Fake Healer]

Some people have it right, some are muddying the waters...
To clarify:
SO lets say your basic bonuses added up to +10.
The base damage of the weapon is 1d10+10 for most, and 2x(1d10+10)=2d10+20 for undead and such.

on a crit you multiply the base damage by the crit modifier.

So against most you do 2x(1d10+10)=2d10+20, and 3x(2d10+20)=6d10+60 for undead and such crits.

If you have a feat (or something)to increase the Crit Modifier it is increased by 1 for each thing that is giving that ability.

So if you have one feat that helps this out you do 3x(1d10+10)=3d10+30 against most creatures, and 4x(2d10+20)=8d10+80 for undead and such.

These numbers may seem like a lot of damage but it is for a type-specific creature in a weapon that is worth 50K. A 50K undead killing weapon should be pretty good at killing undead.

AND TO CLARIFY----THE DOUBLE DAMAGE TO UNDEAD AND SUCH IS AN INCREASE IN THE WEAPON'S BASE DAMAGE TO THAT TYPE AND THAT SHOULD BE MULTIPLIED BY THE CRIT MODIFIER ON A CRITICAL HIT, NOT JUST A D10+BONUSES ADDED TO IT. THIS ISN'T PART OF THE "A DOUBLED X2 IS A X3", THIS IS THE BASE DAMAGE OF THE WEAPON IS BEING INCREASED. THAT WHOLE MODIFIED INCREASE IS THEN SUBJECTED TO THE CRIT BONUS MULTIPLICATION.

[Pirate]

Yar.

Oh wow, there really is NO consensus on this. With such wildly different takes on this, I expected some more back and forth. I mean, how does "Against Negative Energy Plane creatures or undead creatures, the sword deals double damage (and ×3 on a critical hit instead of the usual ×2)" not have anything to do with the rules for adding multipliers?

I'm personally against superfluous text, so I would like to see the bracketed test be something meaningful (an actual change to the crit multiplier) rather than a redundant example of how the rules apply to this scenario. We already have rules for adding multipliers, we should be able to apply them ourselves, not have it spelled out for us every time. This would make a Sunblade Crit vs Undead do x4.

I do see the point about it being example only, and is thus redundant/superfluous text, and thus a Sunblade Crit would do x3.

I still do not see how the "double damage" against undead is a base weapon increase (otherwise it would say "2d10" instead of double). It's a multiplier of the damage, thus it falls into the rules for adding multipliers when you crit. Yet this position is one - vehemently - advocated by some, as we can clearly see above.

I mean, really, which is it? Everyone things their version is the clear and obvious choice. Obviously it isn't as we have such varies opinions on what it actually is. I have my preference and leaning (I prefer x4 crit, but I'm leaning towards intent being x3), but this isn't just about me. It's about actually understanding the rules and making it clear for everyone who read them, from the books themselves, the PRD, the SRD, and to help those with similar questions who visit these boards looking for help.

So I ask again... which is it?

~P

[Quantum Steve]

Turgan wrote:

I believe it is (critting undead or nep): 6d10+24+4 x strength mod.(or 6 x strength mod. if THW)

reason: it's not about adding multipliers (like x2 + x2 = x3); you have a new base damage, this base damage is multiplied by three on a crit.

At least, that's how I'd Interpret the text. FAQ'ed.

Where are you getting "new base damage" from?

The entry for sunblade clearly says "double damage" and doesn't say "base damage" at all. Why, in this singular instance, would anyone interpret "double damage" to mean anything other than a multiplier?
Nobody confuses double damage with lances, and lances use the exact same language!

[meatrace]

So just the base weapon damage increases? So if you normally had, say, a +20 damage multiplier it would go from 1d10+20 to 2d10+20...not 2d10+40?

[Rocky Williams 530]

It works exactly the way your GM thinks it should work...

[Pirate]

Yar!

Rocky Williams 530 wrote:

It works exactly the way your GM thinks it should work...

And what about GM's who wish to follow RAW but are confused as to what the intended function of this item is supposed to be? One who then comes here looking for insight? I'm sure they know they can just make it up, but they came here for something more than that.

Maybe they are in a group of friends who are also rotating GMs, and this item came into play and a table argument erupted from varying interpretations (there are 3 distinct interpretations in this thread already). The current GM made a call at the time to keep things moving, but as a responsible person and out of respect for his friends combined with the issue of the others being GMs as well, followed it up with "To keep things moving, for now it is like this... but I will ask on the paizo forums to see if we can get a clearer answer, and then we'll go with that."

Is he really wrong for doing this? I think not. Please don't dismiss rules question in the rules forum.

~P

[Redneckdevil]

meatrace wrote:

So just the base weapon damage increases? So if you normally had, say, a +20 damage multiplier it would go from 1d10+20 to 2d10+20...not 2d10+40?

Yes because it specifically states the SWORD does extra dmg. So against an undead it would be on a reg hit 2d10+whatever modifiers as normal and on a crit it would be 2d10+normal modifers x 3.

The dmg modifiers are not doubled, only the dmg from the sword itself is doubled, not what YOU added to it. Or else instead of saying SWORD doing double, it would state YOU do doble dmg.

["Devil's Advocate"]

Redneckdevil wrote:

meatrace wrote:

So just the base weapon damage increases? So if you normally had, say, a +20 damage multiplier it would go from 1d10+20 to 2d10+20...not 2d10+40?

Yes because it specifically states the SWORD does extra dmg. So against an undead it would be on a reg hit 2d10+whatever modifiers as normal and on a crit it would be 2d10+normal modifers x 3.

The dmg modifiers are not doubled, only the dmg from the sword itself is doubled, not what YOU added to it. Or else instead of saying SWORD doing double, it would state YOU do doble dmg.

Actually, here is what it says:

Spoiler:

In normal combat, the glowing golden blade of the weapon is
equal to a +2 bastard sword. Against evil creatures, its enhancement bonus is +4. Against Negative Energy Plane creatures or undead creatures, the sword deals double damage (and ×3 on a critical hit instead of the usual ×2).

So it is (before Str or any other bonuses),
1d10+2, 19/x2 short sword <2d10+4 crit>
1d10+4, 19/x2 short sword against Evil <1d10+8 crit>
2d10+8, 19/x3 short sword against Undead <6d10+24 crit>

[meatrace]

Well this is all as clear as mud.

[KainPen]

here the problem with the sunblade is the wording has not changed much since 1st edition. so you really have to go back to those edition for intent Despite all the changes from generation to generation. for give any misspelling or error, I am cut and pasting this info from ocr copy of really old books I have on pdf.

1 edition. unearth arcana
"Sun Blade swords are all of great size and must be treated as bastard
swords. Their dweomer is such, however, that an individual possesing
a sun blade may wield it as if it were a short sword with respect to
encumbrance, weight, speed factor, and ease of use. In other words,
the weapon appears to all viewers to be a bastard sword, and it inflicts
damage as if it were a true sword of that sort, but the individual using a sun blade feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword. Any individual able to use either a bastard sword or a short sword with proficiency or expertise will be able to use a sun blade. In normal combat, the glowing golden blade of the weapon is equal to a +2 magic
sword. Against evil creatures, its bonus is doubled to + 4. When it is
used against creatures from the Negative Material Plane or those that
draw power from that plane (such as many of the undead), the sword
will inflict double normal damage, regardless of whether the bonus of
the weapon is + 2 or + 4. Furthermore, upon command, a sun blade
can be swung vigorously through the air, and the blade will shed a
bright yellow radiance which equals full daylight. The radiance will begin shining within a 10-foot radius around the sword-wielder and will
spread outward at 5 feet per round for 10 rounds thereafter, thus englobing an area of 60-foot radius. Thereafter, the radiance fades to a
dim glow which persists for another 10 rounds before disappearing
entirely. This sunray power of the blade can only be used once per
day. All sun blades are of good alignment."

2nd edition
"Sun Blade: This sword is the size of a bastard sword. However,
its enchantment enables the sun blade to be wielded as if it were a
short sword with respect to encumbrance, weight, speed fact Of, and
ease of use (i.e., the weapon appears to all viewers to be a bastard
sword, and inflicts bastard sword damage, but the wielder feels and
reacts as if the weapon were a short sword). My individual able to
use either a bastard sword or a short sword with proficiency is proficient in the use of a sun blade.
In normal combat, the glowing golden blade of the weapon is equal to a +2 sword. Against evil creatures, its bonus is +4, Against Negative Energy Plane creatures or those drawing power from that plane (such as certain undead), the sword inflicts double damage.
Furthermore, the blade has a special sunray power. Once a day, upon command, the blade can be swung vigorously above the head, and it will shed a bright yellow radiance that is like full daylight The radiance begins shining in a l o-foot radius around the swordwielder,
spreading outward at 5 feet per round for 10 rounds thereafter,
creating a globe of light with a 60-foot radius. When the
swinging stops, the radiance fades to a dim glow that persists for
another turn before disappearing entirely. All sun blades are of good
alignment."

in these edition there was no x3 damage on a critical it was always x2 So when ever a weapon did double damage it did just that double damage if you critical then doubled it again. the double damage was the new base damage of the weapon. the strange multiplication math did not happen until 3.x everyone in this post is also assume all undead and creatures from the negative plane are evil, most them are, but not all of them. This why and exception was listed in 1st edition was printed of the weapon as a special note. So you could still do double damage to something with only the +2 bonus. example of double and triple damage are listed in 2nd edition giant slayer sword and dragon slayer sword. which the + of the weapon never increase does only the base dice do. the the intend of double damage like this is only double the base dice damage same as a lance on a charge,and become the new base damage vs these type of creatures.

so in first and 2nd edition the weapon was doing 4d10 with all other bonus doubled to creatures from negative plane on a critical. Creatures had a lot less hp back then so this was a lot of damage. The only real major change to the weapon was the adding of the x3 multiplier vs negative plane creatures. which seem like the intent was to increase the multiplier to make old weapon do about the same damage ratio to creatures that have vastly more hp about 3 times more hp then they used to have.

So we have a pattern of intent here. double damage = double the base dice nothing else. then on a critical use assigned multiplier on that new base and bonus damage.

by this the weapon does
1d10+2 vs all creatures on critical x2 2d10+4
1d10+4 vs evil on critical x2 2d10+8
2d10+2 vs non evil negative plane creatures on criticalx3 6d10+6
2d10+4 vs evil negative plane creatures on a criticalx3 6d10+12

[Pirate]

Yar!

Except... we have a new rule that informs us of how to calculate these things. A new rule that changes how things used to be done.

Here is a hyperlink.

Here is a quote:

Combat Rules, Damage, Multiplying Damage wrote:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

This is a current rule that supposedly applies to all instances of multiplying damage. Why does it not apply to the Sun Blade when it "doubles" (aka: multiplies by a factor of two) its damage? While the Sun Blade has existed in previous editions, the rules that tell us how it interacts with the game world has changed. Thus, how the Sun Blade functions in the metagame (mechanics, crunch) has changed, despite having virtually the same text. The static bonuses DO get multiplied now. Multiple multipliers multiply the off the original now (ie: x2 + x2 = x3). While it's good and interesting to look back at previous versions, we cannot use their functionality because the rules for how to apply these things have changed.

Of course, even with the multiplying damage rule applied, there is some discrepancy in interpretation due to the bracketed text. Some still hold that it changes the actual crit multiplier, while others hold that it is simply a redundant (and as we can see from this thread, confusing) explanation of the rules I linked to above.

On the other hand, I can now see how one could come to the x6 damage vs undead claim. I do not agree with it, but I can see now how one can come to that conclusion.

~P

[Quantum Steve]

Redneckdevil wrote:

meatrace wrote:

So just the base weapon damage increases? So if you normally had, say, a +20 damage multiplier it would go from 1d10+20 to 2d10+20...not 2d10+40?

Yes because it specifically states the SWORD does extra dmg.

As opposed to...?

What, exactly, would do double damage (if not the sword) if all the damage were intended to be doubled?

Why don't lances work the same way?

PRD wrote:

Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.

"...the sword does double damage." "A lance does double damage..."

Exact same language.

[KainPen]

The everyone is certain on how the math works now. So the question is does the double damage change the actual base of the weapon as it did in older editions. because if it does function that way 6d10 is the result. just as a scythe is 8d4 on a critical. I hit faq before my first post because this should be and easily cleared up but changing the wording a little bit.

[Aelryinth]

I'm of the opinion that the SunBlade simply followed the original language and wasn't updated.

It's basically:

Normal damage/x2 on a crit.

Vs Undead: Normal dmg x2/x3 on a crit.

99% sure that's what they intended to say. It follows the normal crit stacking rules, and isn't some weird exception.

Keep in mind it's already a horrendously powerful weapon against undead. You don't need to make it one-hit killing! The idea that it would be damage x2/ effective damage x 6!!! is just not happening. People are reading way too much into it.

==Aelryinth

[Snorter]

KainPen wrote:

<quotes 1st and 2nd Edition text>

in these edition there was no x3 damage on a critical it was always x2 So when ever a weapon did double damage it did just that double damage if you critical then doubled it again. the double damage was the new base damage of the weapon. the strange multiplication math did not happen until 3.x

Actually, there were no critical hit rules at all in 1st or 2nd Edition, so there is no precedent for doubling the doubled damage.

The sunblade was one of a few weapons that specifically did double damage against a designated creature type, and they were the only examples of 'doubled damage' in the game.

So in 1st or 2nd Edition, a sunblade wielder dealt damage x1 vs most creatures, and damage x2 vs negative energy creatures.
There was never any intent for it to do x3, x4, or any other multiple.

Many groups added their own house rules for doubling damage on a 20, or 'banking the hit and getting a free attack roll' after a 20 (effectively the same as rolling to confirm a threat in 3.x), but these were never an official part of the game.

[KainPen]

Snorter wrote:

KainPen wrote:

<quotes 1st and 2nd Edition text>

in these edition there was no x3 damage on a critical it was always x2 So when ever a weapon did double damage it did just that double damage if you critical then doubled it again. the double damage was the new base damage of the weapon. the strange multiplication math did not happen until 3.x

Actually, there were no critical hit rules at all in 1st or 2nd Edition, so there is no precedent for doubling the doubled damage.

The sunblade was one of a few weapons that specifically did double damage against a designated creature type, and they were the only examples of 'doubled damage' in the game.

So in 1st or 2nd Edition, a sunblade wielder dealt damage x1 vs most creatures, and damage x2 vs negative energy creatures.
There was never any intent for it to do x3, x4, or any other multiple.

Many groups added their own house rules for doubling damage on a 20, or 'banking the hit and getting a free attack roll' after a 20 (effectively the same as rolling to confirm a threat in 3.x), but these were never an official part of the game.

p.86 of the black version dmg are the crtical hit rules for 2nd edtion.

p.61 of the orginal dmg for 2nd edtion. I can't not confirm for 1st edtion as I don't have a 1st edtion dmg, but if the rule was there it would have been in that book.

there is also expanded rules to critical in the skill and powers books. I never used those books so I could not tell you what they did or where they are located. if there one thing I know it 2nd edtion. It was my frist D&D system to play at 13 and that is all had to thinking about was D&D and naked girls lol. my dm's could not role random tresure in front of me as I had all the tresure tables memoried from reading the books so much did not understand meta gaming back then lol.

[Pirate]

Yar!

KainPen wrote:

...at 13 and that is all had to thinking about was D&D and naked girls lol...

Naked girls aside, are there any other thoughts on this? Obviously there is still a large divide in opinions on this.

To clarify on the second edition rules, the critical hit rules were present but were optional. There were also two versions:

1) Natural 20 = double the dice damage then add your regular modifiers
2) Natural 20 = gain an extra attack

I'm sure there were other critical options from other books back then as well. I do remember my original group doing something completely different, but the exact method my group used way back then doesn't matter right now.

The Sunblade entry is as has already been quoted "...the sword does double damage against..."

But as I've said already, doubling the damage works differently now than it did then. So our new rules must be applied to this item when playing this edition of the game. My question still stands: how?

~P

[Ckorik]

My vote is base damage increases on the blade itself, not on your bonuses though.

So:

Normal
1d10+2/x2
Evil
1d10+4/x2
Undead\Neg Plane
2d10+2/x3 (i.e. 6d10+6)
Undead\Neg Plane\Evil
2d10+4/x3 (i.e. 6d10+12)
Undead\Neg Plane\Evil\Deadly Critical
2d10+4/x4 (i.e. 8d10+16)

The increased critical range isn't part of the doubling of the base damage - it's just how the sword functions - so feats that increase crit range will only take it up one step - which is still a ton.

[fretgod99]

The way I read it, the Sunblade does 1d10 regularly, 2d10 against undead regularly, and 3d10 against undead on a critical hit (meaning it's the normal double + double = 3x rule).

But it's rather unclear. Could see it either way. FAQ'd.

[Pirate]

Yar!

It seems the more input we have, the more variations of interpretation we end up with. Do I dare ask for more opinions?

When I first asked this question, I thought there were two reasonable answers. Quickly it turned into three. Now there seems to be four.

Assuming a strength modifier of +2, a critical hit using a Sun Blade (which has a +4 enhancement bonus in this case) vs an Evil Undead creature so far does:

• 3d10+18 (base damage = 1d10+6)
  
• 4d10+24 (base damage = 1d10+6)
  
• 6d10+36 (base damage = 2d10+12)
  
• 6d10+18 (base damage = 2d10+6)

This really is clear as mud, huh?

~P

[KainPen]

yep all we can do is hit FAQ and hope to get an answer on it.

[Pirate]

Yar!

Well then, this... this right here... is a bump.

*bump*

~P

[Pirate]

Yar!

...

*POST LABOR-DAY BUMP!!!*

^_^

~P

[Broken Arrow]

@ Snorter

I have opened my first ed books for the first time in 25 years...

Damage multipliers first appear in the Experts Player Book (p.10) for the lance which was usable only by fighters :)

Nothing more appeared until the Masters players book (pp.20-21) where the first weapons table appears. Previous to this version, there weren't enough weapons to justify a table!!

Under the "Special Effects" column, the dagger receives x2 (20) for a skilled dagger user, and the threat range increases through to x2(17-20) for a dagger grand master.

No other weapons had this though lances have the "charge" x2 damage and tridents got the "skewer" special effect (which was the precursor to the first bleed effect).

Trip down memory lane...

SO on one hand, your assertion that double damage didn't appear in 1st or 2nd ed are wrong, but on the other hand, they didn't apply to all weapons.

[Gilfalas]

PFSRD wrote:

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

I fail to see where the Sunblade does not follow the basic game rules on multiplying damage.

It does double damage normally to evil or undead. That increases (as listed in the weapon) to a total of triple damage when it crits on evil or undead. Which matches the game rules for multiplying damage in Pathfinder.

[Eric "Boxhead" Hindley]

I definitely read it as double damage, which then follows the "double-double equals triple" rules, and just has a reminder in parentheses to let you know it still has a benefit when you crit.

But that's just me.

[Pirate]

Yar!

And yet, there has been adamant (and even all caps) declarations that it ends up being x6 vs undead when you crit with it.

I do agree that the Sunblade should follow the rules for adding multipliers together, just as everything else does. My personal beef with it is the parenthetical text. If the end result is x3 on a crit, the parenthetical text is (in my opinion) redundant, completely and utterly unnecessary.

Conversely, there have been claims that it is not redundant explanation, but a specific and intentional additional change, making it a x3 crit weapon vs undead, meaning a crit vs undead would actually do x4 damage.

~P