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Hey all,
I've been narrowing down what I'd like to do and I believe flurrying shurikens would be a great deal of fun as a monk character. I play in PFS and it's a 20pt buy system, and characters retire after reaching lvl 13.
Someone mentioned that to have Craft: Alchemy be valid in PFS you'd have to be an alchemist. I was wondering if taking a lvl 1 dip in Alchemy would be beneficial to poison my shurikens, jump/leap up across or onto things and rain a bunch of poisoned shurikens down on enemies would work out well.
Anyone have suggestions on races, feats, skills, etc that would help boost this? I guess I'd be using high Str unless there's a way to alter my +dmg when I hit with Shurikens to something else besides Str. Also, I only have the Core book but I'm willing to buy any other books if it'll help me with my character build. Thanks!
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Poisons are expensive, and tend to have easily-beaten saves.
Since shurikens are weapons and not unarmed strikes, their damage will not scale with leveling as a monk. Therefore, I'd recommend being ninja for the build (monk flurrying then basically granting pseudo rapid shot). The ninja trick Flurry of Stars is the real meal-ticket.
Going high strength will MAD the build (costing ranged attack-bonus and Ki uses as DEX and WIS/CHA are lowered to pay for it); if you're using shurikens, you'll should be eying bonus damage from non-stat effects like sneak-attack or weapon spec (etc). Given all the attack penalties ranged combat inflicts, you really don't want to sack attack bonus if you can help it.
Hmm....
half-elf
STR:14
DEX+17
CON:12
INT:13
WIS:11
CHA:12
racial trait: Ancestral Arms
character traits: Birthmark, Honored Fist of the Society
01 ninj1 00 01 04 02 SA+1d6, Combat Expertise, EWP:Fauchard
02 cler1 00 03 04 04 [Droskar:Trickery(Deception)/Darkness][Blind-Fight]
03 monk1 00 05 06 06 [Flowing Monk:(Redirection)][Combat Reflexes], Moonlight Stalker
04 ninj2 01 05 07 06 DEX>16, [Ki Pool][Trick:Flurry of Stars], DEX>18
05 ninj3 02 06 07 07 SA+2d6, Deadly Aim, or General FEAT
06 ninj4 03 06 07 07 [Finesse Rogue, or TRICK]
07 monk2 04 07 08 08 [Improved Reposition], Power Attack, or General FEAT
08 ninj5 04 07 08 08 SA+3d6, INT>14 or WIS>12 (raise other 12th)
* INT:13 necessary for Combat Expertise > Moonlight Stalker
* WIS:11 necessary for casting Obscuring Mist (cleric 1st)
* CHA at 12 for 3+(half ninja level) Ki (with HFotS trait)
* STR at 14 for Power Attack (7th) without belt
Equipment: Keen Fauchard, gobs of shurikens, wand of Mage Armor, Goz Mask, any of several means of obtaining concealment
-- This is a very sneaky build on multiple levels: it takes *three* odd stats at character-creation, MADs all to heck, and takes three BAB=0 classes back-to-back early -- any min/maxer only briefly glancing at your character sheet would think you're nuts.
Goal: be Moonlight Stalking whenever possible. Having +2/+2 is like having your prime stat be four higher. If your victim is also blind relative to you (he will be if you enjoy total concealment), this his additional penalties are equivalent to you being a rage-alky mutagen junkie versus a normal aware opponent, but doing it without pimped stats.
Pictures enemies stumbling around blind in the murk trying to find you while eating Power Attack AoOs from your fauchard, then getting Sneak-zinged by four Deadly Aim/Flurry of Stars shurikens.
"OK; I can imagine that being really awesome... but how do I see through my own mist and darkness?"
Goz Mask: 8,000gp; Inner Sea World Guide. PFS legal. Save your pennies, and don't flub your Fame acquisition.
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@Sir Thugsalot
So I'm taking 1 level of Cleric for 2 first level spells of Obscuring Mist which will allow me to use Moonlight Stalking? I guess Moonlight Stalking will be effective when I succeed stealth checks also? This seems a bit steep to spend 1 level and 8k gold just for that..
I believe Flurry of blows throws more shurikens than a ninja would though. With Point Blank shot and some other masteries and Str mod they should be doing at least 5-6dmg a piece I'd think x 3-5 i'm guessing. Add masterwork or other feats/etc to help increase the dmg.
@TGMaxMaxer
10ninja/2monk path - I think you may be right that Ninja is the better path here...if I do this though then I believe I'll be relying on +cha instead of +wis for my Ki Pool though and as a result my Wis will most likely have to be my "dump stat" meaning that I'll get no AC bonus for being unarmored...which means I should go with light armor then like a chain shirt and later to a mithril chain shirt so I guess that's ok. I won't get evasion, deflect arrow, and some other feats/ability though that I would if I went 10 monk though.
10monk/2ninja path - If I go the other way my 2 levels of ninja don't stack with my 10 levels of monk to my Ki Pool since I won't reach ki pool in ninja with only 2 levels.
Since I'm loosing my AC bonus and not stacking my Ki Pool this is making me think taking 2 levels in Ranger for favored enemy, extra ranged feat, and other junk that comes with ranger might be a better idea? Or taking 1-2 levels in druid and picking up the Boon Companion feat to have a level 5 flank pet or a pet using wands for CLW/etc to help me. Could be 10ninja/2druid or 11ninja/1druid here.
The other idea since Monk isn't looking as great here since Ninja probably has the upper hand is just going like 10ranger and 2ninja or something like that. This would probably result in less of what I wanted though but I'd think my ranged attacks would probably be stronger and I'd have a level 7animal companion or with boon a level 11 animal companion if I'm correct?
I'm trying to figure out what would be best for a shuriken or throwing class that can move about, deal some good damage, and whatnot. I'm guess a Ranger primary would be more geared for bows but I don't think I want to head down that road though..... I think I'd be giving up some sneaky/tricky stuff also going down this path but a pretty strong pet for flanking though?
@Both - Btw, please reference what book contains what. I'm not sure where Aassimar or Tengu are from but they sound interesting. I'm willing to buy a book or two but with all the references and abbreviations I have no idea what books you're pulling all that stuff from. I appreciate the tips/advice, just let me know from where. :)
Edit: I only own the Core Book atm.
I've been narrowing down what I'd like to do and I believe flurrying shurikens would be a great deal of fun as a monk character.
Ninja would do this better than the monk, because they can do sneak attack damage. The monk doing this has the following problems:
1) Shuriken have an awful range. One flurry of shuriken and then your enemy is in your face.
2) Shuriken have awful damage. Without a significant static damage booster, you won't inflict much with them.
Shuriken have only two attractions for a monk: it's a missile weapon you can flurry with (in fact the only one if you are not a zen archer or sohei), and you are proficient with it.
Monk of the empty hands:
- can use shurikens as if they were light hammers (i.e. 1d4 instead of 1d2)
- he can deal slashing, piercing or bludgeoning damage with his shurikens
- he can increase their range increment
- from level 5 onward he can use his unarmed damage for the shurikens (spending ki)
- from level 6 onward (Improvised Weapon Mastery bonus feat) his shurikens count as 1d6 weapons
- from level 11 onwards he can use ki to give his shurikens special properties (like bane vs whatever he's fighting)
Monk vs ninja for shurikens:
A ninja's flurry of stars appears to be better than a monk's flurry - but that does not take into account the monk's full flurry progression which can yield more attacks at a higher BAB. Additionally the ninja's flurry of stars costs ki.
A ninja does get sneak attack, which can spike the shuriken damage - but usually that would only apply on the first attack (since flanking does not apply to keep sneak attacking).
A monk on the other hand can take the Deadly Aim feat to have the about the same attack bonus as a ninja - but more attacks at a higher bonus to damage that always applies.
Late thought, to my knowledge this is accurate:
A monk of the empty hand can, at level 11, legally add the agile weapon property to shuriken to flurry them and deal thrown damage based on his Dexterity modifier. This is a unique class ability of the monk that allows this - and cannot be achieved in other ways to my knowledge.
I was going to say you were wrong because Shuriken don't count as improvised weapons, but a closer read of the MotEH's Weapon and Armor Proficiencies section confirms that they would. Good suggestion.
This seems to solve the OP's issue and retains the flavor of the character. Although multiclassing or dipping into Ninja wouldn't hurt for the poison use.
Also, to address the OTHER limiting factor of shuriken, the range, the MotEH can spend ki to increase that as well. Problem solved.
I remember something about how Zen Archer's can't flurry and rapid shot, but Sohei can. I think that also means that a normal Monk can Rapid Shot and Flurry with a Shuriken, which is actually pretty awesome and I think it outmodes the 1d2 damage.
Alright here's what you want to do.
Get the feats Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus, Snap shot, Improved Snap Shot in that order. Get the feat Combat Reflexes from your Monk Bonus Feats, and try to get the Feat Distance Thrower and the Distance enchant on your Shuriken to get them to a distance of 30 feet, which is about where you want to be since it's in PBS' sweet spot. Take note that without a Blink-Back Belt, your Shiruken will be destroyed once they hit the target and their magic will go away. Once you get a Blink Back Belt you can(with negotiations with your DM because for some reason Shuriken are ammunition) have ONE shuriken that you enchant with everything you want, and thus its a must have.
For Stats, Emphasize them in this order. Strength/Dex>Wisdom>Constitution>Int>Cha. Strength is a bit higher here since you want to get the static damage of your thrown weapon as high as possible.
Now if you're a Ninja this is a little different. Use your Rogue Talents to get as many combat feats as you can before you have to get ki talents(Forgotten Trick, Flurry of Stars, and Vanishing Tricks are great). Feat wise you do the same as before, except now you have to blow feats on Two Weapon Fighting(which stacks with Rapid Shot) as well as the ranged feats. You have a higher potential for damage than the monk, but you need more preparation. You won't be able to sneak attack by yourself until level 10 because its very hard to make people flatfooted against ranged attacks, so make sure someone in the party has Hold Person and similiar spells, otherwise you're a really crappy monk.
Stat Wise Emphasize Dex>Charisma/Strength>Wisdom>Intelligence. You want more dexterity than the monk since it's harder for you to hit than him, and you need less strength because of sneak attack.
Item wise you still want a Blink Back Belt, and now you need Sniper Goggles for both damage and the ability to sneak attack beyond 30 feet. At high levels consider taking the Celestial Obedience feat(and be Lawful Good) and worshipping Tanagaar, the Empyreal Lord of Watchfulness and Owls. At 20th level you get the Hunter's Edge ability which gives you 3 more sneak attack dice(13d6) and every sneak attack dice does +2 damage, which means with sniper goggles you'll be doing around 8 attacks that do 13d6+26 damage. Rather nice, albeit very late in the game.
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Thanks for the info guys. I looked at MotEH a day or two ago but overlooked that normal light weapons are treated as improvised weapons. My question on that is "Do shurikens actually count as normal light weapons since they're classified as ammo?"
Second thing, I only have the option to go to level 12. It also sounds like MotEH would be better than ninja, maybe a 1-2level dip in ninja though.
Am I able to get all the following feats by level 12? Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus, Snap shot, Improved Snap Shot, Distance Thrower.
Also, since shurikens are treated as ammo and I'm playing in PFS I doubt any rules will be bent (especially since I'll be playing under multiple DMs) for me to have special enchanted shurikens that won't ever break. Probably my best option would be just buying +1 or MW shurikens.
Is there anything else I'm missing? What would be the best races for a monk assuming shurikens actually count as light weapons and not just ammo (if they count as ammo this whole idea goes down the drain).
Thanks for the info guys. I looked at MotEH a day or two ago but overlooked that normal light weapons are treated as improvised weapons. My question on that is "Do shurikens actually count as normal light weapons since they're classified as ammo?"
Shuriken are listed under "Exotic Ranged" on the Weapons Table. They are NOT listed on the "Ammunition" Table.
shuriken are treated as ammunition [ONLY]for the purposes of drawing them and crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and of what happens to them after they are thrown.
Inclusion and bolding mine for emphasis. There are a specific set of criteria where Shuriken are considered ammunition. Treating them as improvised weapons for a Monk of the Empty Hand is not on that list.
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shuriken are treated as ammunition [ONLY]for the purposes of drawing them and crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and of what happens to them after they are thrown.Inclusion and bolding mine for emphasis. There are a specific set of criteria where Shuriken are considered ammunition. Treating them as improvised weapons for a Monk of the Empty Hand is not on that list.
However, Monk of the Empty Hand specifically states that Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. This seems to indicate they RAI is to no treat shuriken as improvised weapons as they do with any other weapon, but use the actual stats for shuriken.
You can get around this though by simply using darts instead of shuriken. Darts are also weapons that are treated as ammo instead of weapons and since MotEH is not proficient with them, they would treat darts as an improvised light weapon.
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I'm cool with using Darts if need be and not shurikens. I will have to check Qinngong and Martial Artist also. Are all these in the same book? Hoping I can have these decisions with only purchasing one book.
Also any suggestions on races? The small races seem like fun but I think it'll hurt my shuriken/dart damage quite a bit. I could be wrong. Also, I'm not familiar with the races outside of core and not sure what races are great for Monk.
This is really good stuff guys, keep up the great info. It seems I should pretty much be full Monk from lvl1-12...or maybe taking 1 dip in fighter or something to gain some extra feats. Or multiclass MofEH / Qinngong (not sure how many levels for each though yet).
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Qinggong is in the Ultimate Magic and Martial Artist is in the Ultimate Combat. Before you buy the book, check it out on the PRD
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Actually, don't use darts either if you use monk of the empty hand. Carry decks of playing/harrow cards and throw them as improvised shuriken Gambit-style. If you go small race, it hurts you more as a monk of the empty hand, but doesn't really hurt at all as a martial artist. 1d1 vs 1d2 is one damage point per hit in exhange for a +1 size bonus to hit. The +1 to hit is far more valuable than the chance of one more point per star, especially when you account for the to hit penalties inherent in flurry, rapid shot, and deadly aim.
However, Monk of the Empty Hand specifically states that Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. This seems to indicate they RAI is to no treat shuriken as improvised weapons as they do with any other weapon, but use the actual stats for shuriken.
You can get around this though by simply using darts instead of shuriken. Darts are also weapons that are treated as ammo instead of weapons and since MotEH is not proficient with them, they would treat darts as an improvised light weapon.
Hmm, you're right. That's the way I would rule it too. Since they are indeed proficient with that specific weapon, and treat all other "normal weapons" as improvised, it stands to reason that RAI dictates that they treat Shuriken as printed. But, yes, darts would be another way to go that would qualify for this "workaround".
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@Zwordsman
I mentioned that because Ninjas don't get the ability to use their Ki Pool till level 4, so I'd have to dip 4 levels into there to have access to using Ninja Tricks that use Ki points. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm going to check out the two monks, it seems like I have the choice of either multiclass MofEH / inggong or going straight Martial Artist for 12 levels. I'll look at them both here and give my thoughts after a little bit.
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So a Martial Artist can't Flurry of Blows since he loses his Ki? I'm not so sure how the Martial Arts Master feat/ability would help also as I'm focusing on ranged attacks so I don't get grappled/tripped/or level drained etc from melee attacks/abilities. (But I'm still well versed as a monk to avoid those if I do get grappled/etc just not trying to put myself in the position to have to use those saves)
As for races I think I'll pass on Tengu, Aasimar, or Tiefling. I'm not fond of the Tengu look and Aasimar and Tiefling don't seem that beneficial. I may stick with deciding between the core classes of: Halfling, Gnome, Human, or Half Elf.
I mentioned that because Ninjas don't get the ability to use their Ki Pool till level 4, so I'd have to dip 4 levels into there to have access to using Ninja Tricks that use Ki points. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Ninja get both their ki pool and first ninja trick at second level.
So a Martial Artist can't Flurry of Blows since he loses his Ki?
No, a Martial Artist can Flurry of Blows just fine, all he loses is the ability to spend ki to get an extra attack during a Flurry.
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Ah thanks a ton Bearded Ben! Looks like I need to go back to the drawing board between Martial Artist and MotEH/Quinggong.
Quick question for those that have played a Martial Artist, the feat Martial Arts Master - Is there anything I could use this for that would allow me to get a fighter type feat for ranged attacks that I wouldn't be able to get through the course of MotEH/Quinggong?
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Well, that and the Darkness-domain granted Blind Fight to qualify for it.@Sir Thugsalot
So I'm taking 1 level of Cleric for 2 first level spells of Obscuring Mist which will allow me to use Moonlight Stalking?
I guess Moonlight Stalking will be effective when I succeed stealth checks also? This seems a bit steep to spend 1 level and 8k gold just for that.Once you have that Goz Mask, understand that virtually nothing can see you let alone touch you without True Sight once you have your favorite mist/smoke/whatever up.
I believe Flurry of blows throws more shurikens than a ninja would though. With Point Blank shot and some other masteries and Str mod they should be doing at least 5-6dmg a piece I'd think x 3-5 i'm guessing. Add masterwork or other feats/etc to help increase the dmg.
How many you can throw is irrelevant; what matters is how many hit.
Popping a point of Ki into Flurry of Stars for two more throws yields the ninja multiclass four attacks -- then add in the 3d6 sneak-attacks out of concealment to each one versus diminished AC.
Would you like to do an extra 12d6 per round? I'll bet you would!
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Wouldn't it be easier to be a Drow? It seems they get darkvision 120ft, can use poison without harming themselves, can cast dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire, once a day. Also would get Seducer trait to charm person if my wis was 15+ as an alternate trait but would lose enchantment immunities. I'm not sure how much light blindness would affect me unless someone casted sunburst or daylight etc.
Also taking Greater Drow Nobility would have deeper darkness at will but i'm not sure if that's allowed in PFS.
I'd think with the above that Drow would be a better choice that going to levels into Cleric. Let me know if i'm wrong or misunderstanding something here.
Also, I thought sneak attack only worked on the first object to hit? So wouldn't that mean that 4 shurikens hit the enemy but only one deals 3d6 sneak attack dmg?
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Also, I thought sneak attack only worked on the first object to hit? So wouldn't that mean that 4 shurikens hit the enemy but only one deals 3d6 sneak attack dmg?
I believe there has been a recent clarification of the rules on this, though my search-fu has failed me at this ungodly hour of the morning.
As far as I know, all attacks you make immediately after breaking stealth/invisibility all count as being made against a creature that is denied their dex bonus to you (barring special circumstances like Improved Blind-Fight, Uncanny Dodge, etc).
Also, as I asked over in the thread in the PFS General Discussion forums, what was it specifically that drew you to wanting to play a Drow? Was it just the purely mechanical reasons you were mentioning earlier in this thread, or was there some roleplay aspect that you were wanting?
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It seemed that Drow had the ability to create darkness (especially with the one feat to create greater darkness at-will) to allow for sneak attacks easily.
Tengus look a bit ugly and I'm not sure I'd be willing to buy a pdf JUST for Tengu. They didn't seem that great or appealing to me.
Drows are pretty interesting, mysterious, and I'll be playing a low Charisma based character unless I must for Ninja as I'll play the "silent and mysterious" character in parties. Assessing the situation but not really being the face or being very tactful with my words.
If all shurikens deal sneak attack damage then this could be a big reason to go Ninja, Rogue, Shadowdancer or whatever to get sneak damage. I'm not sure what works best and what would be great to fling mayhem at enemies in battles while avoid melee combat.
Edit: As a main point though, Drows allowed for easy access to darkness/concealment for sneak attacks and they also had the extra added flavor of being mysterious and being brash and direct (probably not entirely true but I would think most interactions with a Drow and an above-ground dweller wouldn't go over the best unless a Drow was flattering a female character for their dominance or something...)
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It seemed that Drow had the ability to create darkness (especially with the one feat to create greater darkness at-will) to allow for sneak attacks easily.
Tengus look a bit ugly and I'm not sure I'd be willing to buy a pdf JUST for Tengu. They didn't seem that great or appealing to me.
Drows are pretty interesting, mysterious, and I'll be playing a low Charisma based character unless I must for Ninja as I'll play the "silent and mysterious" character in parties. Assessing the situation but not really being the face or being very tactful with my words.
If all shurikens deal sneak attack damage then this could be a big reason to go Ninja, Rogue, Shadowdancer or whatever to get sneak damage. I'm not sure what works best and what would be great to fling mayhem at enemies in battles while avoid melee combat.
Edit: As a main point though, Drows allowed for easy access to darkness/concealment for sneak attacks and they also had the extra added flavor of being mysterious and being brash and direct (probably not entirely true but I would think most interactions with a Drow and an above-ground dweller wouldn't go over the best unless a Drow was flattering a female character for their dominance or something...)
I have some ideas that I think you might like, and I'd be more than happy to discuss them with you. :)
However, I think I'm going to move said discussion over to the PFS boards, rather than trying to split it between two threads, unless you'd rather hold said discussion over Private Messages.
EDIT: Or we could continue in this thread. I just think it best to consolidate the back and forth to one thread rather than two in different forums.
One trick you can do with Monk of the Empty Hand is using coins or other things as shuriken. The last time I checked the math it was cheaper to use silver coins than to buy silver shuriken, or to use iron nails than to buy cold iron weapons.
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From my understanding if I'm using any improvised item that's not normally a weapon then I'm doing 1d1 point of dmg. The MotEH states it treats NORMAL WEAPONS as improvised weapons with following equivalencies: a LIGHT WEAPON functions as a light hammer.
While it seems that playing cards, dice, nails, or other things lying around would do very low dmg (1d1, 1d2, 1d3 maybe?), what I do find interesting is that MotEH says that a light weapon functions as a light hammer (substituting ALL OF THEIR STATISTICS for the listed weapon).
Not only does that increase the damage of a dart or wushu dart thrown, but it increases their thrown range from 10ft to 20ft. Tack on the improvised weapon master at lvl 6 and you can throw a dart or wushu dart 20feet for 1d6dmg with 19-20/x2 crit. Can adjust them to B,P,S dmg and can spend 1ki to increase range from 20ft to 40ft for that weapon type for 1 round. 11th level can add effects to weapon thrown also or spend ki to swap improvised dmg for unarmed damage.
I also assume darts AND wushu darts can be drawn as a free action?
I'm confused if you can CONSIDER to treat a shuriken as an improvised weapon also to substitute it's dmg for the improvised weapon dmg.
So while it sounds like common items that are used as improvised weapons aren't treated with the improvised weapon damage it does seem that you can use this improvised weapon adjustment to increase range of 10ft thrown weapons to 20ft.
It's Alive!
Seriously though, with ACG comes the Warpriest. If there is a way to make the Shuriken deadly, it is likely with a Warpriest of Yaezhing.
