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I've recently noticed that people in my gaming circles hate the magus class. I'm curious why they don't like it though. Magi get the benefits of being full casters that prepare spells (which lets you be versatile) and the benefits of getting martial abilities (like being the only Arcane casters that gain proficiency in heavy armour). Is disliking the magus localized to my game groups (PFS and other), or do others feel the same?
I'm not fond of the reliance on full-round actions.
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Different strokes for different folks, Fighter/mage was one of the classic multi-class characters from back in the day. I think it is awesome but I don't like certain classes(gunslinger, alchemist, ninja, samurai) that other folks will love. It's all good as long as we are all having a good time.
The spell list is odd. One of the guys in my group is a magus, and it seems like a fun class. It seems really MAD though.
I definitely enjoy the Magus. Although the general play style seems a bit "one-trick pony", you do have AoE capacity, can pull off some interesting controller tricks, and properly built have a lot of maneuverability; for my group, my Spell Dancer Magus tends to dash around the battlefield to soak up AoOs pretty frequently (currently sitting at a 35 AC fully buffed versus AoOs, 11th level).
As Azixirad put it: "Different strokes for different folks".
I don’t like playing prepared classes (with the exception of Paladin and Ranger), but If I’d play one it would be the Magus. I haven’t played one, but in our last campaign a friend of mine played one and he had a blast. I think Paizo has done an excellent job with the Magus.
Class has a ridiculous amount of potential. Also has access to a lot of skills and can do really anything. Some may call Spell Blending a bad arcana, but when my Magus can do anything that you would expect from a utility wizard, while still being able to throw fireballs out there, and is fully capable in combat, it is one if the best classes out there. Class features limit what you can do all in one turn, on top of all the options you already have, the class needs more turns.
A mage-killer Magus is a very, VERY powerful foe. High potential in that class. Worst thing, as said above, is relying heavily on having full-round actions available to them. Which means a build supporting 5ft steps.
So, your fighty-casty isn't very mobile.
I'm not fond of the reliance on full-round actions.
So, your fighty-casty isn't very mobile.
That's not a unique problem; it's shared by every Martial class without pounce.
I've played a Magus and enjoyed it. It does great burst damage and I still have a soft spot for a 30% crit chance Frigid Touch that staggers the melee big bad for a minute with no save. I think people dislike it at times because of a kneejerk "broken!!!" response. Reminds me of my 3.5 DM who originally thought Rogues would be too powerful in Pathfinder because they could sneak attack on every attack :p
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People don't like Magus because they get scared by burst damage. When you see a Magus land a massive crit with an Intensified Shocking Grasp and the player is struggling to pull together enough d6s for the hit, it's easy to think, "wow, that's not fair," especially because of confirmation bias. You're going to remember every one of his massive crits, but forget all the times he's swinging for rogue without sneak attack damage because he ran out of spells, or is afraid he will so doesn't use one against a mook, etc.
The Magus is a swingy class. Every once in a while, they deal massive damage, but mostly, they're "ok." Human brains process swinginess strangely, though, so it leads to people thinking they're too strong.
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My issue with magus is not that it's unfair or broken, as it is a class that runs out of juice relatively quickly, but is still decent with lingering buffs and abilities even so.
Magus bothers me oddly in that conceptually, it is so damn cool that everyone and their friggin mother wants to play it, like every game if allowed. So as much as I love the class, it's kinda like..."Oh, another magus idea...I'm -so- thrilled to see yet another one."
Also, the magus tends to be less diverse in combat style despite its possibility, as every one gets in close to whack something with a handheld weapon and have a spell go off, even the myrmidarch who can shoot ranged rays through arrows and whatnot.
Most other base classes have more approaches available to them that make each a bit more diverse in approach, excepting barbarian.
One aspect of the magus that I really like is their arcane pool resource. That set's it apart from other martial/arcane hybrid classes like Duskblade. That and the arcana really distinguish the class, and there needs to be lots more arcana, IMO.
IMO, Paizo should have given magus's more options for alternate combat styles, rather than enforcing only two weapon fighting. There's room in the class for two-handed variants, as well defensive builds that aren't limited by their arcane pool. IMO, magus's could have been the premiere "self-buff" class, and could have even gone spell-less.
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I think mplindustries nailed it on the head. In a recent PFS game my 8th level Magus had to solo the first encounter. In three hits I dealt over 150 damage, and thanks to Mirror Image I was only hit twice, which prompted the GM to comment that "Yeah, Maguses are great for about a minute and a half each day". I just ignored it.
I think also that since most Magi prepare a set of core spells that does not deviate from character to character they are seen as a cookie cutter option. "If you've seen one Magus, you've seen them all" sort of thing. Couple that with the constant misunderstandings surrounding their class abilities and you're set up for hostility every time.
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I think also that since most Magi prepare a set of core spells that does not deviate from character to character they are seen as a cookie cutter option. "If you've seen one Magus, you've seen them all" sort of thing.
"Oh look, another dervish-dancing scimitar magus with multiple slots of shocking grasp." ;)
For what it's worth, my wife has a kitsune magus with a rapier whose go-to spell is frostbite, and she doesn't even have shocking grasp in her spellbook.Couple that with the constant misunderstandings surrounding their class abilities and you're set up for hostility every time.
Last night I was at a table with a dervish dancing magus who kept saying "I'll spellstrike" and then proceeding to perform Spell Combat. :/
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If I could make one improvement for the Magus, it would be the creation of more spells with 'additional charges' options.
At low levels, I would favor Chill Touch and Frostbite over Shocking Grasp just because of their secondary effects; if there were similarly-worded spells ("You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level") at higher levels, I think you'd more frequently see some variants like TWF Magi relying on pre-casting charged spells then moving in to combat...
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I think also that since most Magi prepare a set of core spells that does not deviate from character to character they are seen as a cookie cutter option. "If you've seen one Magus, you've seen them all" sort of thing."Oh look, another dervish-dancing scimitar magus with multiple slots of shocking grasp." ;)
For what it's worth, my wife has a kitsune magus with a rapier whose go-to spell is frostbite, and she doesn't even have shocking grasp in her spellbook.Couple that with the constant misunderstandings surrounding their class abilities and you're set up for hostility every time.Last night I was at a table with a dervish dancing magus who kept saying "I'll spellstrike" and then proceeding to perform Spell Combat. :/
Yeah i think thats more of a failing of pathfinder itself then the magus. The fact that dervish dance stands alone as a dex to damage option (beside the agile weapon property) is silly to me. In my game you can do so with any finessable weapon weilded one handed. Fencers can dance too. So at least that adds some variety. And I honestly think there is a lack of interesting damage spells at low levels. I feel like pathfinder in an attempt not to adopt the glut of spells from 3.5 has gone too far the other way, taking great pains to make sure new spells dont overlap with old ones. There really ought to be more damagin touch spells on the list. But there arent many at all.
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I "kind" of like the magus, but I think it is a bit clunky in the design for my tastes, leading to more complexity than is really needed for what the concept they were trying to make was.
I wish they had done a 6 level 3/4 caster who above and separate has could add spell effects to attacks, possibly by burning spell slots.
But it isn't bad.
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"I am Inigo Montoya, The Magus killed my father, prepare to die!"
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That essentially IS the magus. With spellstrike, you channel a spell through your weapon and add it's damage to your own. With spell combat, you can do this and normal weapon strike as well.
I wish they had done a 6 level 3/4 caster who above and separate has could add spell effects to attacks, possibly by burning spell slots.
And spell combat is the part that I don't like. It basically makes one build "the" build and creates a lot of confusion and exceptions.
I would rather spellstrike be an ability that lets you convert any spell into a touch offensive spell (earning options for choices as you level to cover various types, etc...), and have that touch spell apply to all attacks you make.
This way you wouldn't just have the same magus build all the time. TWF would probably still be best, although quick draw would become a must have for casting spells with somatic, and TWF build would be possible (release to cast, grip to attack)
You would have a spell list, and then you could swap out a spell for spellstrike.
I find Spell Combat really pigeonholes Magus, as well as creating complexity that doesn't add.
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For what it's worth, my wife has a kitsune magus with a rapier whose go-to spell is frostbite, and she doesn't even have shocking grasp in her spellbook.
Love it. To spice things up my Magus is a Dwarf, and there aren't many Dwarven characters in my area. With Toughness, a 20 Con, and favored class bonuses going into hit points, I often have more HP than the front line barbarian. I also took Breadth of Experience, so in addition to damage and tanking I'm a Knowledge junkie, too.
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I would rather spellstrike be an ability that lets you convert any spell into a touch offensive spell (earning options for choices as you level to cover various types, etc...), and have that touch spell apply to all attacks you make.
Ooooh, that could actually make a really fun Arcana option!
Spell Funnel: The magus has learned to channel the energy of an area spell through his weapon to perform devastating magical attacks. Whenever the magus casts an area spell from the magus spell list, he may choose to instead cast it as though it had a range of "touch", following the normal rules for touch spells (including eligibility for Spellstrike, and the ability to hold the charge). An enemy hit with the converted spell is affected as though it had been within the spell's normal area. If the spell normally allows a saving throw, the target may attempt the save as normal. If the converted spell's area has a radius of more than 10 feet, then the magus can attempt one touch attack (or Spellstrike attack) plus one additional attack for each 5 feet in the spell's radius beyond 10 feet. Spells whose area does not have a radius only allow one touch attack (or Spellstrike attack), as normal. The magus must be at least 6th level to select this arcana.
is there any spell they cast other than Shocking Grasp?I just learned of Bladed Dash from Inner Sea Magic. Since my Dwarf only moves at 20, and I haven't bought Boots of Striding and Springing for him yet, I think I'm going to add it to my spellbook and try it out.
Bladed Dash is a useful spell; I almost always prepare one or two slots with it, for movement purposes or to hassle enemy spellcasters (readied action to cast Bladed Dash if I notice an enemy begin casting a spell, dash over to them and force a Concentration check with the free attack granted by the spell).
is there any spell they cast other than Shocking Grasp?
Yes, there's Frigid Touch, unfortunately. I don't mind when the magus in the group I'm running casts Shocking Grasp all the time; it's when he casts Frigid Touch that I get nervous. Nothing neuters a martial BBEG faster than being only able to take a standard or move action for a whole minute.
But what the hell, he's entitled to his fun. He just needs to keep in mind that if he's going to ride the same few tricks all the time he might be in for a rude awakening when he faces an opponent that's been able to study his tendencies and take measures to counter them.
That essentially IS the magus. With spellstrike, you channel a spell through your weapon and add it's damage to your own. With spell combat, you can do this and normal weapon strike as well.
I wish they had done a 6 level 3/4 caster who above and separate has could add spell effects to attacks, possibly by burning spell slots.
And spell combat is the part that I don't like. It basically makes one build "the" build and creates a lot of confusion and exceptions.
I would rather spellstrike be an ability that lets you convert any spell into a touch offensive spell (earning options for choices as you level to cover various types, etc...), and have that touch spell apply to all attacks you make.
You would have a spell list, and then you could swap out a spell for spellstrike.
I find Spell Combat really pigeonholes Magus, as well as creating complexity that doesn't add.
Invent an Archetype that does that.
Sounds like it might be a winner: link it here when finished.
Slightly off topic....
Is it "May-gus", or "Mah-gus"?
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Am I the only magus who uses a heavy pick instead of a scimitar? Hexcrafter sleep hex ftw. And my go to spells so far are frostbite, glitterdust, and force hook charge.
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That essentially IS the magus. With spellstrike, you channel a spell through your weapon and add it's damage to your own. With spell combat, you can do this and normal weapon strike as well.
I wish they had done a 6 level 3/4 caster who above and separate has could add spell effects to attacks, possibly by burning spell slots.
And spell combat is the part that I don't like. It basically makes one build "the" build and creates a lot of confusion and exceptions.
I would rather spellstrike be an ability that lets you convert any spell into a touch offensive spell (earning options for choices as you level to cover various types, etc...), and have that touch spell apply to all attacks you make.
You would have a spell list, and then you could swap out a spell for spellstrike.
I find Spell Combat really pigeonholes Magus, as well as creating complexity that doesn't add.
Invent an Archetype that does that.
Sounds like it might be a winner: link it here when finished.
That sounds like work...
Also if I ever get past round one of RPG superstar, now I have an idea :)
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Most of his spells are restricted to buffs
I've realized after a few games that for a magus, frostbite is really a buff spell in disguise. :)
EDIT:
It just occurred to me that since anyone can "Spellstrike" a touch spell via unarmed strike, some kind of monk/druid multiclass with frostbite could be really interesting!
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I think also that since most Magi prepare a set of core spells that does not deviate from character to character they are seen as a cookie cutter option.
Oh I don't know, I think this is rather differed from most magus builds.
is there any spell they cast other than Shocking Grasp?
Close range arcana+acid splash. You now can spam cantrips if you run out of higher level spells. Shocking grasp is the most famous, but not always the best.
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Most of his spells are restricted to buffsI've realized after a few games that for a magus, frostbite is really a buff spell in disguise. :)
EDIT:
It just occurred to me that since anyone can "Spellstrike" a touch spell via unarmed strike, some kind of monk/druid multiclass with frostbite could be really interesting!
This was kind of my issue with the Magus. I wish it were more of a caster who can channel arcane power when it wants to go into melee and less of a caster who also casts while swinging a weapon (generally with a high crit range...)
I think concepts like you described are much more interesting to me than what we currently have.
It is similar, although far less than the issue I have with the gunslinger.
I like the idea of the concept, but I think they over-complicated the mechanics of it all by trying to be cute.
I don't like the fact that they can only combine the use of a one-handed weapon with their spell combat ability.
If you remove that restriction, they become one of my favorite classes in the game.
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Let us say we removed spell combat entirely, and replaced it with the ability to spontaneously convert a spell into a damage effect. As you level, you get access to more damage types (Fire, Acid, etc...)
And lets say this damage effect was based on touch, rather than standard AC.
So for example you could have a two-handed magus who attacks and misses regular damage, but hits for touch.
And let us further say this damage applied to each attack.
What would be reasonable bonuses to damage.
1d6 per spell level? Maybe 2d6. It sounds low, but with multiple attacks and depending on the and accounting for criticals...that could get fairly substantial fairly quick, particularly since again, it would be against touch AC. And additionally, being able to access damage types is a big help against DR.
At the same time, it still adds damage if you go with a standard THF build, so you can just power attack the hell out of things if you want to go that direction. It would be a nice dip class for a martial, but not too nice.
You would keep spellstrike, so you can cast your spells through your attacks, and it would still be 2nd level so you aren't getting to much out of a one level did. But you lose all the weirdness of casting and attacking at the same time.
Again, very rough. Just spitballing.
Sounds like Pool Strike, just with spell slots.
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Kinda sounds like you want an archetype that loses Spell Combat and gains either an improved Arcane Pool progression, a new ability to spend spell slots for pre-defined melee boosts, or a combination of the two.
Oooh! Idea!
Whenever the magus spends an arcane pool point to enhance his weapon, he may choose to sacrifice a prepared spell as part of the same action. If he does, then he is treated as being a number of levels higher equal to twice the level of the spell sacrificed for purposes of determining the enhancements available.
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I have played Sagotel the magus only once. There are so many magi in my local PFS group that I almost always play a different character at a first-level table. That will change, I hope, as the other magi gain levels.
I disagree with Detect Magic. It seems logical and reasonable to me that the magus needs a free hand to cast spells when combining combat with casting.
@ Sagotel: Unless they use their weapons to perform the somatic components, tracing geometric patterns in the air.
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Good idea jiggy. I don't see much wrong with spell combat as is though. If you move, You can't use it, but if spell combat is removed, you severely risk overpowering or mega-nerfing the magus. Magus is a martial that depends on melee and full attack like all other martials, but also is a caster and has spells for when he can't melee. What if spell combat got improved like having it increase as two-weapon fighting feats increase (with spell level limits of course)? Make it Magus flurry of blows. Or what if Magi got arcana that let them grow wield 2h weapons in one hand? Like the titan mauler's Jotungrip ability.
Why people think that the Magus needs a full round of attacks to be effective? They can cast move and spellstrike (hopefully for a ridiculous amount of damage, let's say 11d6 plus static bonuses if it is not a crit). That is cooler than anything that I have seen done by a martial class out of a full round. But the magus has a lot of other options in his bag of tricks.
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Why people think that the Magus needs a full round of attacks to be effective? They can cast move and spellstrike (hopefully for a ridiculous amount of damage, let's say 11d6 plus static bonuses if it is not a crit). That is cooler than anything that I have seen done by a martial class out of a full round. But the magus has a lot of other options in his bag of tricks.]I agree with you here. Magus doesn't need full-attack, just is more effective with full attack because you can deliver 2 spells and a weapon attack.
I initially didn't care for magi for a couple of reasons.
1. Superior action economy (some of their arcana are swift actions); fighter/wizards don't receive class features that grant them anything comparable.
2. Greater Spell Access (you mugged a wizard; get fourteen spells!). It just seemed kinda random. Granted, it's 19th level, but still random.
I really have to roll one up and play one from early levels.