I'm not seeing what the tradeoff is. You get everything a Magus normally gets and also incredible cosmic power. It seems more like a base Magus Rewrite than an archetype.Wha- Oh, I forgot to add that you get diminished spellcasting that reduces spells per day by 2 (min 0), to balance. sorry.
Wow that's brutal. I don't know, I tend to prefer to keep things closer to the center of the balance scale. I prefer to add something worth (abstractly) 1 or 2 and take away something worth 1 or 2. You added something worth 100 and took away something worth 100.
The scale probably balances overall, but with that few spells and that amazing a burst ability, it feels like it's even swingier than the swingiest Magus was before. You can blow your whole load on getting a 15-20 crit with a pick for x4 damage on the big boss, but then have basically no fuel to do more than that the whole rest of the day.
I don't know what I think of that. It's certainly something.
That is brutal. You could instead have these abilities replace heavy armor proficiency and spell recall and (if still overpowered)counterstrike.
Replacing Spell Recall doesn't really matter, because if you're blowing your load to one-shot the BBEG, you're not going to have any arcana for it anyway.
It's just begging to be used as as SUPERNOVA class. If you are ok with that, then it's fine. If you're not, while it's "technically balanced," it's still not actually a good idea.
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I believe it was bound to it's room if I remember correctly.Unless it was a 5x5 room, it was a stupid creature.It was a fairly small room. I think 3x6? Memory is a little fuzzy on that one.
So you're saying if you were that creature, you'd rather be pelted to death instead of at least trying to take a claw/bite/claw on someone?
If pinned in the room, it should have started casting spells. Starting with Crushing Despair and Charm Monster. The tactic is specifically called out for use against ranged attackers.
I've recently noticed that people in my gaming circles hate the magus class. I'm curious why they don't like it though. Magi get the benefits of being full casters that prepare spells (which lets you be versatile) and the benefits of getting martial abilities (like being the only Arcane casters that gain proficiency in heavy armour). Is disliking the magus localized to my game groups (PFS and other), or do others feel the same?
You gaming group don't like the Magus in the sense that they think it's overpowered or weak? Or they don't like it in the sense that they don't want to play one?
My friends actually like the Magus and I have two players playing them in my next campaign. Some PFS players/GMs don't like them because they think they're overpowered/cheesy, but I've never seen them not accepted at tables.
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I am running an Int focused Elf Hexcrafter Magus in my GM's current campaign and loving it. Some builds scream cheese, but most classes have that.
I hate the magus cause 80% of them are clones. It's the most boring class, and really one of the only classes that really only has 1 really good build. I don't hate the class overall, but I hate the normal dervish dance probably black blade and/or kensai build that most magus are, especially in pfs. I've never seen another class that's so static, not even gunslingers, and they seriously have pretty much 1 mechanic.
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I hate the magus cause 80% of them are clones. It's the most boring class, and really one of the only classes that really only has 1 really good build. I don't hate the class overall, but I hate the normal dervish dance probably black blade and/or kensai build that most magus are, especially in pfs. I've never seen another class that's so static, not even gunslingers, and they seriously have pretty much 1 mechanic.
Considering how dervish dance is actually a pretty weak magus build, 80% of people follow a false meta.
Int focused ftw!
I sort of agree though. I only have one magus build that I really want to play. But I do that with every class though, even fighters.
Ancient necro is ancient.
As a GM, I like black blade quite a bit. One of my players is going to go with that in the new campaign, and it's going to fit the campaign perfectly.
I hate the magus cause 80% of them are clones. It's the most boring class, and really one of the only classes that really only has 1 really good build. I don't hate the class overall, but I hate the normal dervish dance probably black blade and/or kensai build that most magus are, especially in pfs. I've never seen another class that's so static, not even gunslingers, and they seriously have pretty much 1 mechanic.Considering how dervish dance is actually a pretty weak magus build, 80% of people follow a false meta.
Int focused ftw!
I sort of agree though. I only have one magus build that I really want to play. But I do that with every class though, even fighters.
?
How is it weak, exactly? It works really well. You can split Int/Dex just fine.
The only way I can see it being weak is if you actually dump Str. But keep a 13 for Power Attack and you're in business. Magus is really the only character who can pull off Dervish Dance and not feel like they're missing out, since they need a hand free for most of their stuff anyway.
I hate the magus cause 80% of them are clones. It's the most boring class, and really one of the only classes that really only has 1 really good build. I don't hate the class overall, but I hate the normal dervish dance probably black blade and/or kensai build that most magus are, especially in pfs. I've never seen another class that's so static, not even gunslingers, and they seriously have pretty much 1 mechanic.Considering how dervish dance is actually a pretty weak magus build, 80% of people follow a false meta.
Int focused ftw!
I sort of agree though. I only have one magus build that I really want to play. But I do that with every class though, even fighters.
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How is it weak, exactly? It works really well. You can split Int/Dex just fine.
The only way I can see it being weak is if you actually dump Str. But keep a 13 for Power Attack and you're in business. Magus is really the only character who can pull off Dervish Dance and not feel like they're missing out, since they need a hand free for most of their stuff anyway.
You waste two feats (4 arcane points), to have equal AC by level 7 and less AC by level 13, and to make all those nice polymorph spells you have relatively useless.
And then you completely deny yourself the damage boost from two-handed swings when you don't need to cast a spell (like when you are smacking someone with Frostbite).
You also lock yourself into main stating dex if you want your AC to keep up, while a strength based can stop pumping level points at 18 strength and then just pump int.
I hate the magus cause 80% of them are clones. It's the most boring class, and really one of the only classes that really only has 1 really good build. I don't hate the class overall, but I hate the normal dervish dance probably black blade and/or kensai build that most magus are, especially in pfs. I've never seen another class that's so static, not even gunslingers, and they seriously have pretty much 1 mechanic.
Um... Kensai is not the normal Magus...
The "common" magus is:
Elf/Half-Elf/Human Dervish Dancing magus with High dex with blade-bound being optional.
Kensai Magi are a vERY different breed of magus all together who play more like their full BAB counterparts...
If anything, I would think the Hexcrafter is actually a more common archetype than the Kensai.
Hey! I found my old Alias here.... that is old...
i honestly dont like magus, but it has nothing to do with its mechanics
i just dont like the flavor, the theme...a nimble and dextrous melee fighter that weaves spells into its combat.
Where do you get that from?
How did you get nimble and dextrous from a two weapon fighting-ish ability that doesn't require DEX?
Which wording? the "blending sword and magic"?
Of course the iconic magus is going to look nimble and dextrous, it's a half elf and (more importantly) before it became the iconic magus he was the iconic EK (which means somewhat nimble and dextrous).
its just the feel when playing it man, i cant tell you a stone cold rationalization for it. i feel like a glass cannon namby pamby when i play one.How did you get nimble and dextrous from a two weapon fighting-ish ability that doesn't require DEX?
Which wording? the "blending sword and magic"?
Of course the iconic magus is going to look nimble and dextrous, it's a half elf and (more importantly) before it became the iconic magus he was the iconic EK (which means somewhat nimble and dextrous).
My strength/int magus laughs at whatever notions of tankyness you think other martials have over him.
Now excuse me as I go turn into a huge zombie and deliver crushing blows that splash magic everywhere.
@w01fe01
I take it you haven't played (or seen played) a magus at levels 8-17, correct?
Magi are known to be one of the best Burst Damage classes in the game... there are VERY few people that can compete with the amount of damage a magus to output... and the fact he can only do it so many times per day is kind of a moot point because he can just get Pearls of Power or use his Arcana pool to get the spells right back... and he is doing this with just his 1st and 2nd level spells... so he has PLENTY to spare... add in on top of that, that an optimized magus can pretty much 1 shot most things...
Magi are known to be one of the best Burst Damage classes in the game... there are VERY few people that can compete with the amount of damage a magus to output... and the fact he can only do it so many times per day is kind of a moot point because he can just get Pearls of Power or use his Arcana pool to get the spells right back... and he is doing this with just his 1st and 2nd level spells... so he has PLENTY to spare... add in on top of that, that an optimized magus can pretty much 1 shot most things...The problem in my experience for magus characters is two fold.
1) D8 hit dice is bad hit dice. You're always somewhat squishy. This causes you to go down more when you get hit which is often due to the armor restrictions. As such magus are typically squishy and do not do well vs level +2 content.
2) The magus can easily have it's damage gutted when fighting something like 40% of all monsters. Anything immune to spells/elect reduces the magus to a very bad fighter until higher levels when they have access to 4th+ magic.
The most obnoxious problem is the last one in which you're prohibited from using the best damage style, archery.
It's not that magus are terrible it's just that mechanically speaking if you want to cast spells and hit things the blood rager does it better. Especially after the metamagic rager was spoiled. I feel like the BR is the best designed new class in the ACG because of this. It actually makes you function outside of casting spells but you're great at blasting too.
I've only seen them at that level. One of them was even a munchkin but got Full to -Con in a single maximized empowered horrid wilting in ** spoiler omitted **...@w01fe01
I take it you haven't played (or seen played) a magus at levels 8-17, correct?
How, pray tell, did he get hit with a Maximized Empowered Horrid Wilting? That should not even exist unless you had a Dick GM INTENTIONALLY go out of his way to optimize FOR THAT SPELL (who grabs Magical Lineage/Spellhunter (Horrid Wilting) and has a Greater Rod of maximize????) seeing as it is a 8th level spell...
I feel like your just making stuff up right now.. because that seems liek bogus.
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My opinion in regard to the original question:
1) One of the main strengths of prepared casters is versatility. Being able to have the right spell for the specific situation. Need seek thoughts? Give me 15 minutes. Need tongues? Got it covered.
However, the magus has very few of those utility-special-use spells. (Yes, you can get a few with spell blending, but then you are giving up some other really nifty arcana's just to add a couple spells to your book.) So since you mostly just have combat spells, they tend to be the same ones every day unless you know ahead of time there will be demons that are immune to your standard electricity damage.
2) Specialized. Most of the effective magi that I have seen are very specialized. You can specialize in a few different types of combat. But they all seem to be pretty specialized. So many people find them fairly boring to play since you always do the same thing. (Not sure if I agree with it, but I've heard fairly often.)
3) Most of them look pretty darn similar. Ok, this ones is dervish dancing shocking grasp and that ones is power attacking corrosive touch. But that is nearly a distinction without difference.
4) Especially at low levels you have one really excellent nova fight worth of spells. The rest of the time you aren't much better than a rogue (which most everyone seems to hate). Or you parcel them out and are just a little bit worse than a martial character.
Even at mid levels you have to be careful to not burn through them too fast.
Some people just don't like nova builds. Though they do tend to be a bit better in PFS since there are usually a max of 4 combats in a scenario, at least one is usually easy, and a face (or sneaky) can often get you past one or two. So you often have only 1 or 2 fights in which you can freely nova.
5) Confusing. Spell strike, spell combat, kinda two-weapon fighting, arcana, spell recall, etc... A lot of people just get it wrong. I'm pretty sure a couple of the guys I have seen are not doing all of it correctly, but it hasn't been worth fighting with them about.
6) They are kinda glass cannon-ish. Some people want more durability in a front line character.
Those are the main reasons I have heard. To me 1) and 3) are the biggest ones. Though I do have a magus, not sure if I will make another any time soon.
The Magus is heavily skewed towards being Dex based. Unless you think the only people who can play the Initiative game are Diviners, he does just fine.
My opinion in regard to the original question:
1) One of the main strengths of prepared casters is versatility. Being able to have the right spell for the specific situation. Need seek thoughts? Give me 15 minutes. Need tongues? Got it covered.
However, the magus has very few of those utility-special-use spells. (Yes, you can get a few with spell blending, but then you are giving up some other really nifty arcana's just to add a couple spells to your book.) So since you mostly just have combat spells, they tend to be the same ones every day unless you know ahead of time there will be demons that are immune to your standard electricity damage.2) Specialized. Most of the effective magi that I have seen are very specialized. You can specialize in a few different types of combat. But they all seem to be pretty specialized. So many people find them fairly boring to play since you always do the same thing. (Not sure if I agree with it, but I've heard fairly often.)
3) Most of them look pretty darn similar. Ok, this ones is dervish dancing shocking grasp and that ones is power attacking corrosive touch. But that is nearly a distinction without difference.
4) Especially at low levels you have one really excellent nova fight worth of spells. The rest of the time you aren't much better than a rogue (which most everyone seems to hate). Or you parcel them out and are just a little bit worse than a martial character.
Even at mid levels you have to be careful to not burn through them too fast.
Some people just don't like nova builds. Though they do tend to be a bit better in PFS since there are usually a max of 4 combats in a scenario, at least one is usually easy, and a face (or sneaky) can often get you past one or two. So you often have only 1 or 2 fights in which you can freely nova.5) Confusing. Spell strike, spell combat, kinda two-weapon fighting, arcana, spell recall, etc... A lot of people just get it wrong. I'm pretty sure a couple of the guys I have seen are not doing all of it correctly, but it hasn't been worth fighting with them about.
6) They are kinda glass cannon-ish. Some people want more durability in a front line character.
Those are the main reasons I have heard. To me 1) and 3) are the biggest ones. Though I do have a magus, not sure if I will make another any time soon.
1) In my experience this is just not the case.
2) Specializing to a specific spell is a dumb idea as a magus and completely unnecessary.3) I get that people like the build, but IMO it is sub-optimal and doesn't play to the magus's real strengths.
4) This is the reason why 3 is a suboptimal build. By 12 I have 27 arcane pool points. I don't run out of resources and I adventure with mythic characters that rest to replenish spells as a non-mythic char.
5) No you are right this can be confusing. The FAQ/errata section on the SRD clears up a lot of things, the magus is definitely for people with more complete rules knowledge.
6) This is also why 3 is suboptimal.
Having weak defensive statistics such as low HP and not having an initiative score high enough to reliably play rocket tag is what it shows me. The magus is very much at the glass end of front line characters.
That said I've never had useful magus at a table with me which may color my opinion of them.
Let's see by 12 my magus AC is normally 34. His saves would be +18 fort, +10 ref, and +14 will. HP is 111 before false-life.
That spell is a fort save which the magus should have a good chance at passing.
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1) In my experience this is just not the case.
2) Specializing to a specific spell is a dumb idea as a magus and completely unnecessary.
3) I get that people like the build, but IMO it is sub-optimal and doesn't play to the magus's real strengths.
4) This is the reason why 3 is a suboptimal build. By 12 I have 27 arcane pool points. I don't run out of resources and I adventure with mythic characters that rest to replenish spells as a non-mythic char.
5) No you are right this can be confusing. The FAQ/errata section on the SRD clears up a lot of things, the magus is definitely for people with more complete rules knowledge.
6) This is also why 3 is suboptimal.
I am not necessarily saying they are all valid reasoning in action. But they are the reasons given. Maybe the single spell specialized magus is not optimal. But it is what you mostly see. (I saw another this Saturday at level 9. It was easily 90% shocking grasp or the same spell with an altered energy type.) That will greatly color perceptions.
Most of the ones you see do have almost the same spells every day and don't have access to a bunch of the utility spells that many people want out of their gish character.
Many of them do nova all their spells in the first fight or 2 and then want to rest because they are out.
If you don't let them rest and they have to fight without spells those same guys get stomped.
Never said it is the best way it can be played. But it is the way many of them are played.
1) In my experience this is just not the case.
2) Specializing to a specific spell is a dumb idea as a magus and completely unnecessary.
3) I get that people like the build, but IMO it is sub-optimal and doesn't play to the magus's real strengths.
4) This is the reason why 3 is a suboptimal build. By 12 I have 27 arcane pool points. I don't run out of resources and I adventure with mythic characters that rest to replenish spells as a non-mythic char.
5) No you are right this can be confusing. The FAQ/errata section on the SRD clears up a lot of things, the magus is definitely for people with more complete rules knowledge.
6) This is also why 3 is suboptimal.I am not necessarily saying they are all valid reasoning in action. But they are the reasons given. Maybe the single spell specialized magus is not optimal. But it is what you mostly see. (I saw another this Saturday at level 9. It was easily 90% shocking grasp or the same spell with an altered energy type.) That will greatly color perceptions.
Most of the ones you see do have almost the same spells every day and don't have access to a bunch of the utility spells that many people want out of their gish character.
Many of them do nova all their spells in the first fight or 2 and then want to rest because they are out.
If you don't let them rest and they have to fight without spells those same guys get stomped.Never said it is the best way it can be played. But it is the way many of them are played.
Oh I was just trying to address your issues.
The magus is power gamer bait with spell combat. These people are more likely to find the most popular guide and mimic that. The guides create solid builds, but they are not always the best, especially in the hands of people who don't really understand them. This compounds with the magus also being noob bait. Sword and Spell is cool, but the mechanic are intimidating which will also drive people to guides, and the guide in this case heavily promotes a non-PRD source dependent build that heavily ignores some of the magus's best class features. I myself have seen the dervish-dance build totally flop.
Having weak defensive statistics such as low HP and not having an initiative score high enough to reliably play rocket tag is what it shows me. The magus is very much at the glass end of front line characters.
That said I've never had useful magus at a table with me which may color my opinion of them.
Let's see by 12 my magus AC is normally 34. His saves would be +18 fort, +10 ref, and +14 will. HP is 111 before false-life.
That spell is a fort save which the magus should have a good chance at passing.
But what about level 10 with ~30-40k less gold since you've not retired. Since the target level for this is 10-11.
Waking rune spoilers
** spoiler omitted **It's a fairly unique situation so I'll forgive this because it's a rough PFS adventure with the most TPK's of any PFS adventure. That still doesn't help my point. Magi struggle against end game enemies outsiders and constructs particularly. The high level monsters all are strong vs the magus.
Well since my char is a normal one with standard WBL and PFS characters are normally way over geared and my cloak is only +3, the saves and AC would be about the same.
The lack of improved spell recall would hurt if I was 10 and not 11.
If PFS is your only metric there is a more appropriate sub-forum for that kind of discussion.
EDIT: Your claims about magi are unfounded.
I genuinely like the magus and think it is a great class, but there is one thing I hold against it - if someone tells me they're going to be playing a magus, odds are I can guess 80% of his build right off the bat. As far as class concepts goes, it is a fairly narrowly defined class.
More than most others, there are so many mechanical aspects that either limit or encourage specific builds (no two-handed weapons with spell combat!/spellstrike only cares about threat range!) that I find that many Magi tend to look alike.
Let's see by 12 my magus AC is normally 34. His saves would be +18 fort, +10 ref, and +14 will. HP is 111 before false-life.
That spell is a fort save which the magus should have a good chance at passing.
I'd love to see this build. Especially the arcane points, saves, and AC.
I'd love to see this build. Especially the arcane points, saves, and AC.Let's see by 12 my magus AC is normally 34. His saves would be +18 fort, +10 ref, and +14 will. HP is 111 before false-life.
That spell is a fort save which the magus should have a good chance at passing.
The actual character is 26 point buy, the numbers quoted are from after converting it to 20 point buy. The character is still at WBL for that level.
Buffs are: Shield, Haste, Heroism, False Life, Bear's Endurance, Monstrous Physic II(yeti)
Next level I can wear fullplate, which will be nice.
Magus requires a large amount of book keeping and the wording for spell combat in conjunction with spell strike is like a verbal ouroboros. I don't want to play something or gm for something if I am not 100% able to comprehend its mechanical aspects.
Magus requires a large amount of book keeping and the wording for spell combat in conjunction with spell strike is like a verbal ouroboros. I don't want to play something or gm for something if I am not 100% able to comprehend its mechanical aspects.
Um... what?
It is not that complicated...
Spell Combat: you can cast a spell at the beginning or end of a full attack at your max BAB. The Spell takes a -2 penalty to hit (as if via TWF with a light weapon). Get a small bonus to concentration checks as you level.
Spellstrike: When you cast a spell with the range of touch, you can deliver the spell via a weapon strike instead of a Melee touch attack.
It ireally is not that hard to figure out... I mean, its not complex... at all...
as for book keeping, what the heck are you talking about??? They have lass things to track than an Inquisitor or Alchemist. They have... Spells per day... and thair Arcana points... that is it...
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I am not necessarily saying they are all valid reasoning in action. But they are the reasons given. Maybe the single spell specialized magus is not optimal. But it is what you mostly see. (I saw another this Saturday at level 9. It was easily 90% shocking grasp or the same spell with an altered energy type.) That will greatly color perceptions.Most of the ones you see do have almost the same spells every day and don't have access to a bunch of the utility spells that many people want out of their gish character.
Many of them do nova all their spells in the first fight or 2 and then want to rest because they are out.
If you don't let them rest and they have to fight without spells those same guys get stomped.Never said it is the best way it can be played. But it is the way many of them are played.
Not all magi choose to pigeonhole themselves into that trap.
Some are built to deal damage without spells while maintaining a high AC and good saves. At level 8, my magus has a 32 AC with just Mage Armor + Shield. Add in Haste + Mirror Image and he is the tank.