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2. Greater Spell Access (you mugged a wizard; get fourteen spells!). It just seemed kinda random. Granted, it's 19th level, but still random.
There is no reason for a magus specific spell list. They should have received 6 level progression on the wizard spell list.
2. Greater Spell Access (you mugged a wizard; get fourteen spells!). It just seemed kinda random. Granted, it's 19th level, but still random.
I actually like the concept of this feature. It allows the magus to customize their versatility by modifying their spell list. I just hate that it comes at the end of a magus' career when it's fairly meaningless.
Ideally you'd spread out the ability across the entire magus progression, perhaps allowing them to pick a wizard spell every 2 levels or somesuch. That way they'd actually get to *use* the wizard spells they pick up in the meat of a campaign.
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2. Greater Spell Access (you mugged a wizard; get fourteen spells!). It just seemed kinda random. Granted, it's 19th level, but still random.There is no reason for a magus specific spell list. They should have received 6 level progression on the wizard spell list.
I completely disagree. That is like saying there is no need for a Bard spell list.
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Magus spell list should stay. 6 level progression on wizard list sucks. The magus spell list is made to be effective at making the magus more effective and versatile. Greater spell access represents that the years you have spent studying magical tomes and runes has allowed you to gain abilities that the iconic, "Superior" caster (A.K.A wizard) gets. But it should have a gradual progression, to make that more apparent, and effective.
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OK I worked out something for greater spell access to scale.
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Magus spell list should stay. 6 level progression on wizard list sucks. The magus spell list is made to be effective at making the magus more effective and versatile.
How would 6 level progression on the wizard spell list be less effective or versatile? Aside from a small number of Magus specific spells (bladed dash), everything else is on the wizard spell list at the same level.
I completely disagree. That is like saying there is no need for a Bard spell list.
Bards have a substantial number of spells that either do not appear on the wizard spell list, or do so at a different level. Wizard spells not on the bard spell list are inaccessible using bard class features.
The Magus can access any wizard spell of 6th level or lower using only magus class abilities.
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Am I the only magus who uses a heavy pick instead of a scimitar? Hexcrafter sleep hex ftw. And my go to spells so far are frostbite, glitterdust, and force hook charge.
mine uses an Elven Curve Blade. Scimitar and shocking grasp are only the most famous Magus spellstrike combo.
@Lincoln Hills:I agree that Magus isn't a great name, but do you have any suggestions on a new name?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the Magus is a bit too... Focused.
The cookie-cutter variation is depressingly common because Dervish Dance is so damn good and so damn specific. Similarly, Shocking Grasp is an excellent spell (and one of very few first level touch spells available without investing extra resources) for the magus. So you get a lot of dexterous magi that wield scimitars in one hand and shocking grasp in the other. Most of them happen to have a parent who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two (ie Magical Lineage), and they accidentally pick up Intensify Spell around level 6.
Mechanically it's a solid class, but there's not that much room for variation - and all the most popular archetypes (kensai, Bladebound, occasionally hexcrafter) for it really just reinforces that since they're all variations of 'guy that fights with sword in one hand and a spell in the other'.
Part of the problem is that arcane touch spells are rare because all the primary arcane classes (sorcerer, witch, wizard) generally all want to stay out of melee range, so there's not all that much incentive to write more melee touch spells.
That said, I'd love to see a few more feat and spell options that support the myrmidarch, the skirnir, and the staff magus.
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Personally, I've never seen this "Cookie-cutter" Magus. Of all the Magi I've seen, I've only once seen weapon's finesse used, and never seen dervish dancing magi with scimitars. None of the Magi I've seen have magical lineage trait or with intensify spell. I've seen bastard sword blaadebound Magi with focused mind and reactionary. I'm trying an elven curve blade wielding tiefling alchemist/magus, I've seen an elven magi with a scizore, and plenty of other builds, but not dervish dancing, scimitar wielding, intensified shocking grasp casting Magi. Guess I don't see any "damn good" magi (though they have a kill rate that competes with a barbarians). Skirnir and Myrmidarch are rather effective archetypes, they should have better feat options.
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I think the Magus is a balanced class, but just like anything else it can be optimized to the point of insanity. And that optimization usually involves Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp) and a high critical range weapon. In the age of "Go big or go home", and with optimized builds just a click away, you're going to see God Wizards, Aasimar Oracles of Life, grappling Monk/Druids, and Scimitar wielding Magi everywhere you look.
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In the age of "Go big or go home", and with optimized builds just a click away, you're going to see God Wizards, Aasimar Oracles of Life, grappling Monk/Druids, and Scimitar wielding Magi everywhere you look.
Ah, so I'm not looking anywhere. I've only seen Aasimar Oracle of life from your list, and he was more murderous then many barbarians I've seen. Optimization in my groups means that you make a character that is insanely good and incredibly unique, not that you have the damn good cookie cutter character that anyone can build.
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I GM one campaign and play a character in another. The campaign I GM has a magus in it that's an elf dervish dance scimitar user with an astronomical dexterity modifier (and rubbish strength), magical lineage: Shocking Grasp, arcane mark spellstriking each round, intensify spell on level 6. In short, the works. The player admitted somewhat sheepishly to "doing some googling" since he initially found the class confusing.
In the other campaign, one of the players expressed an interest in playing a magus in case his (to me interesting and unique alchemist/barbarian) character kicks the bucket. He said he'd started out on a character sheet and wanted me to look it over.
Lo and behold, it's another Dervish Dancing scimitar-wielding magus (though a tiefling, not an elf) with a focus on electricity spells - specifically shocking grasp. In his favor, there was no magical lineage.
The two players have never met.
There are some options that are very, very powerful for the magus. Those options are also very specific - I had a player joke that the UE's Magus Kit should include a scimitar and a scroll of shocking grasp.
A good litmus test for a class is if you can have two players using the same class in a party and not have them step on each other's toes. One wizard can specialize in blasting spells and the other can specialize in buffs and debuffs. One fighter can use two handed weapons, the other uses a bow. I find that the typical magus fails that test spectacularly unless you put in a significant amount of effort to make them feel different.
Adding some more competitive build options would diversify the class and make them feel less... Repetitive.
To be fair and honest, my Magus is basically the same thing, Kudaku, although I went Spell Dancer.
A good litmus test for a class is if you can have two players using the same class in a party and not have them step on each other's toes. One wizard can specialize in blasting spells and the other can specialize in buffs and debuffs. One fighter can use two handed weapons, the other uses a bow. I find that the typical magus fails that test spectacularly unless you put in a significant amount of effort to make them feel different.
Alchemists are in a similar situation. You have the bomb tosser or the vivisectionist.
I agree that the spell list for the magus is far too limited to elemental-themes for the most part. It would be neat to see a non-elemental magus variant, perhaps specializing in illusions, necromancy, or even abjurations (protecting allies with their magic ala swift action effects).
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OK, for varying builds to compete at high levels, the Magus do lack. If anyone would like to see an effective non-dervish dancing Magus build, I can post the Alchemagus build in a couple of days if I can playtest it. Also, a couple of builds I have thought of is the Myrmidarch10/Arcane Archer10 that specializes in rays, AOE attacks and missiles like disrupt undead, burning hands, and magic missile. This build has high DEX modifier, but doesn't take weapons finesse as it uses bows to deliver missiles and rays through them at 4th level, and AOE attacks at 10th level (taking arcane archer levels 9-19) This takes a while to be more than just a shooting character with no major benefits, but is worth the wait. I am working on more builds if someone wants them, but these are the only finished ones*.
*these builds will most likely require dips in other levels.
My problem.is that with the exception of the hexcrafter they top out at 12th level. Every level after they fall further and further behind. They cant pump out the martial level DPR. Although they have a few tricks for control and movement. Of course the casters coming into their own help. Luckily the hexcraftef can transition into debuff save or suck.
I'm curious about this statement. How much damage would you expect a "martial" to deal in one round at, say, 16th level?
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I'm curious about this statement. How much damage would you expect a "martial" to deal in one round at, say, 16th level?
If you are an optimized one trick monkey killer, A LOT! If you are your average fighter on full attack, you have 3 attacks per round at a plus 6 (when 2 handing) to damage and a greatsword, You are looking at an average of 39 per round or 13 per attack. Optimized barbarians get a rough average of 22 per attack or 66 per round. It is hard to compete with the optimized killer barbarian's swing unless you are 4 levels higher.
I'm curious about this statement. How much damage would you expect a "martial" to deal in one round at, say, 16th level?
I know I didn't make the statement, but I'd suggest something similar to (counting no buffs):
+5 Falchion for 2d4+5
~30 Strength, so +15 damage
Power Attack for +15 damage
Weapon Focus
So, +25/+20/+15/+10 to hit and 2d4+35 (40 average) damage base, we'll say. Then each class adds its own things:
Fighter:
Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling = +5 hit/damage
Great Weapon Focus/Weapon Spec/Greater Spec = +1 hit/+4 damage
So, +31/+26/+21/+16 for 2d4+44 (49 average) damage
Barbarian
Probably has a +4 Furious Courageous weapon, which means their weapon becomes +6 and adds 3 more points to Strength while raging, so that's +9 Strength enraged, which adds +5 to hit and +7 damage. And of course they have Pounce, so they're making all four attacks on you for sure at:
+30/+25/+20/+15 and 2d4+42 (47 average) damage (and this is ignoring all the other fun tricks Rage Powers get you)
Paladin:
Smite adds Charisma (probably in the mid 20s, we'll say 26 for a +8) to hit and their level (16) to damage and they ignore DR. They can also potentially double this for one turn with a Litany of Righteousness. Of course, against a non-evil foe, they're just at the base numbers above:
+33/+28/+23/+18 for 2d4+51 (56 average) damage or 4d4+102 (107 average) when using Litany of Righteousness.
Ranger:
Favored Enemy +8 hit/damage
There are lots of tricks to make sure it applies, though if it doesn't, obviously, base above
+33/+28/+23/+18 for 3d6+43 damage (and this ignores the Animal Companion's contribution)
The Magus, meanwhile, is Dervish Dancing with a Scimitar, probably with a comparable Dex to their Str (so, 30) for +10 damage and can't get Power Attack. Arcane Strike is a trap, because there are Arcana that are already better. The ability to enhance their weapon is pretty much meaningless at this level because everyone has a +5 weapon already with several abilities beyond it.
So, with the -2 from Spell Combat, we're looking at +25/+20/+15 to hit, and 1d6+15 (18.5 average) damage base.
A smart Magus will have Bane Blade as his 15th level arcana for +2 to hit and +2d6+2 damage (Inquisitors don't get all the fun), and they'll use Accurate Strike every round that their Arcana holds out in order to make all touch attacks, so the accuracy is a lot less relevant.
The Magus is also left with a choice:
Throw an intensified (and probably empowered or maximized) Shocking Grasp onto the first swing for 10d6 (35 average, 52 average, or 60 flat respectively), or make all three with (probably empowered) Frostbite for +1d6+16 (19.5 average or 29.25 average empowered) if they are susceptible to nonlethal.
+27/+22/+17 touch attacks for 13d6+17(62.5)/3d6+17(27.5)/3d6+17(27.5) or 4d6+31 (45 average).
Uh, it looks pretty comparable to martial damage to me. Of course, that presumes you have enough Arcana to sustain Accurate Strikes. Essentially what it comes down to is that Magi can total hang with martials until their resources run out.
If you are an optimized one trick monkey killer, A LOT! If you are your average fighter on full attack, you have 3 attacks per round at a plus 6 (when 2 handing) to damage and a greatsword, You are looking at an average of 39 per round or 13 per attack. Optimized barbarians get a rough average of 22 per attack or 66 per round. It is hard to compete with the optimized killer barbarian's swing unless you are 4 levels higher.
I think you must have misheard when he said 16th level. Either that or you just have absolutely no clue what higher levels are like. 13 damage per attack is a joke--that's even below average for 1st level full BAB characters (Power Attack with a Greatsword and 18 Strength for 2d6+9 or 16 average).
And Barbarians actually do a tiny bit less damage than Fighters, they just get to Pounce and use dozens of other awesome Rage Powers while rocking a better AC and having skills to boot.
I'm curious about this statement. How much damage would you expect a "martial" to deal in one round at, say, 16th level?If you are an optimized one trick monkey killer, A LOT! If you are your average fighter on full attack, you have 3 attacks per round at a plus 6 (when 2 handing) to damage and a greatsword, You are looking at an average of 39 per round or 13 per attack. Optimized barbarians get a rough average of 22 per attack or 66 per round. It is hard to compete with the optimized killer barbarian's swing unless you are 4 levels higher.At 16th level?
at that level a barbarian is probably doing like 40 dmg per hit.
Nah, 50 average per hit (enlarge person is a cheap potion) raising a Nodachi from 1d10 to 2d8. I'd figure 2d8+41 (counting PA, Rage, etc)
So around 250 damage give or take/rd.
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Essentially what it comes down to is that Magi can total hang with martials until their resources run out.
This is a problem people have with casters in general. The solution is that nearly every full caster gets spells that increase base ability scores by 4 for minutes/level. This means that a Dervish Dancing Magus could simply cast cats grace and hang out with fighters of the same level for 16 minutes at level 16. Also, by 16th level, the Magus Tank becomes an option. In Mithral full plate, your AC with buffs ignoring feats becomes ~26, which is painfully low. But if you add a mithral buckler* and the fact that you can blow all your cash on AC because you can enchant your weapon in combat, You can get up to AC 36 which is sizable. Now, having plus 5 armor and shield is expensive, so make sure you earn your armor, but still, you can hang with martials after you run out of spells** because you still do 1d6 damage, which is good to add, especially since you can provide flanking to the rogue with a terrible AC doing 9d6 damage. Magus is the best class for an arcane caster that can fight all day.
*I am aware that a mithral buckler removes dervish dance as an option, which reduces AC by 6. If you can do what I will continue to do with Magi, and avoid dervish dance, you can also get a bonus to your damage since you can now be effective with d8 weapons and have a STR mod.
**Also, 16th level casters don't run out of spells to quickly.
I think you must have misheard when he said 16th level. Either that or you just have absolutely no clue what higher levels are like. 13 damage per attack is a joke--that's even below average for 1st level full BAB characters (Power Attack with a Greatsword and 18 Strength for 2d6+9 or 16 average).
And Barbarians actually do a tiny bit less damage than Fighters, they just get to Pounce and use dozens of other awesome Rage Powers while rocking a better AC and having skills to boot.
My calculations were ignoring feats, enchanted weapons, and potions. They were just pure stats of a raging barbarian with terrible equipment. Also, with the rage bonus, barbarians have higher damage then fighters because figters can't get the str. from their class alone. I eliminated all feats, and any magical buffs in my average calculations and had calculated with barbarians made with higher STR. then CON. With those factored in, you get anywhere between 40 per attack and 500 per round. I also forgot that at 16th level, they get 4 attacks as I have less experience with full BAB classes then I do with 3/4 BAB classes.
Also, with the rage bonus, barbarians have higher damage then fighters because figters can't get the str. from their class alone.
And my point was that Weapon Training > Rage, and having additional levels of Weapon Focus and Specialization and so many feats you won't know what to do with them all is even better.
The Barbarian is the "weakest" martial in terms of pure hit/damage. They just make up for it with awesome special abilities (especially Pounce).
Fighters are supposed to kill stuff. If you're not optimizing around that concept, you're not a fighter.
I've recently noticed that people in my gaming circles hate the magus class. I'm curious why they don't like it though. Magi get the benefits of being full casters that prepare spells (which lets you be versatile) and the benefits of getting martial abilities (like being the only Arcane casters that gain proficiency in heavy armour). Is disliking the magus localized to my game groups (PFS and other), or do others feel the same?
Some of us would rather play a Fighter or a Wizard.
Fighters aren't the killing machines people make them up to be unless you optimize them ridiculously.
Weapon training and power attack do 90% of the work for you. Throw in the WF tree and you are rolling in DPR.
The Barbarian is the "weakest" martial in terms of pure hit/damage.
Only if you do not consider the monk or rogue martial classes.
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@ArmoredMonk
You can absolutely make a viable magus that uses strength instead of dexterity. However, you are most likely still going to be using a sword in one hand and a spell in the other.
There can be significant mechanical variation in the build of of two different magi. There might even be some variation in how it plays out (especially if you pick up some other touch spells - touch of fatigue for instance). However, from the outside looking in, it's still a mage that relies primarily on melee touch spells (of which there are few to choose from), low level buff spells (Shield, Mirror Image etc) and a 1h weapon, probably a sword with a good crit range (of which there are few to choose from). That makes it easy to go "great, another magus. Jeez, where are they finding these guys?"
Reading over my own post I feel like I'm being really negative about the magus, so I just want to say that I think the Magus is a great class - it is quite possibly the best take on the "arcane melee caster" I've seen and it plays very well indeed. However...
I wish there'd be a few more ways to approach building that character:
A viable archetype that let the magus use two-handed weapons.
A viable archetype that rewarded the use of bludgeoning weapons - maybe tie it in with some sonic spells?
A viable archetype that rewarded the use of high crit multiplier weapons instead of crit range.
An errata that made the Myrmidarch work. I'm not sure if the Spell Combat / Spell Strike implications were intentional or accidental, but it raises a lot of questions about the class.
Any and all of the above would do a great deal to make the class show a bit more variety.
The Barbarian is the "weakest" martial in terms of pure hit/damage.Only if you do not consider the monk or rogue martial classes.
Ha! I don't think of them at all, mostly (or the Cavalier for that matter). They're all so pointless, I didn't even bother including them in the discussion.
Am I the only magus who uses a heavy pick instead of a scimitar? Hexcrafter sleep hex ftw. And my go to spells so far are frostbite, glitterdust, and force hook charge.
thought you had to use one hand slashing? erm I maybe confused tho, Havent played/GMs a magus in several months.
edit im probably confused because there is rapier.... why did i have slashing in my head?
One thing I don't care much about is the magus fluff. The other classes seem to have a place in Golarion. Bards have inspire courage, but the reason they go into the world tends to be things like gathering knowledge, telling/learning stories, etc etc. The wizard seeks out arcane knowledge, the cleric and paladin are in service to their gods, the druid has a bond with the natural world. The magus entries in the Adventure Path guides always say something like "Those who can use weapons but also do magic" and it just turns me off to the whole class. I love the idea on a good character but the class itself reminds me of the kid you used to rp with before you knew the meaning of the term, who told you with wide eyes "Oh yeah, my guy well he has a sword but he can also do magic." The class strikes me as a mechanical concept rather than a fleshed out class, if that makes sense.
Black blade is one hand slashing, rapier, or sword cane. Which is what you are probably thinking of.
Great comparison mplindustries. I do have one quibble however
The ability to enhance their weapon is pretty much meaningless at this level because everyone has a +5 weapon already...
A +5 weapon costs 50,000g. That's 50k that the magus isn't spending on enhancing his weapon, that the martial is. 50k is just at the border between a lesser and greater major magic item, so the magus is going to have one additional major magic item, in comparison to the martial.
That opens up some nice options, even moreso if the campaign allows custom magic items, or there's a friendly magic item crafter in the party.
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I wish there'd be a few more ways to approach building that character:
A viable archetype that let the magus use two-handed weapons.
A viable archetype that rewarded the use of bludgeoning weapons - maybe tie it in with some sonic spells?
A viable archetype that rewarded the use of high crit multiplier weapons instead of crit range.
An errata that made the Myrmidarch work. I'm not sure if the Spell Combat / Spell Strike implications were intentional or accidental, but it raises a lot of questions about the class.Any and all of the above would do a great deal to make the class show a bit more variety.
If people reading this thread would like, in a few days I could make a couple of rough ideas for archetypes. Reply if you would like to see these. I will post these as soon as they are finished, but don't think I will be able to playtest them, so if someone would volunteer it would be helpful.
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One thing I don't care much about is the magus fluff. The other classes seem to have a place in Golarion. Bards have inspire courage, but the reason they go into the world tends to be things like gathering knowledge, telling/learning stories, etc etc. The wizard seeks out arcane knowledge, the cleric and paladin are in service to their gods, the druid has a bond with the natural world. The magus entries in the Adventure Path guides always say something like "Those who can use weapons but also do magic" and it just turns me off to the whole class. I love the idea on a good character but the class itself reminds me of the kid you used to rp with before you knew the meaning of the term, who told you with wide eyes "Oh yeah, my guy well he has a sword but he can also do magic." The class strikes me as a mechanical concept rather than a fleshed out class, if that makes sense.
I agree that the base fluff for the class can be a little week. However, alot of that can be made up for with a solid character concept. Just because a guy happens to be skill with magic doesn't mean he necessarily thinks of himself as a wizard. Maybe he is a black blade archetype who sees all of his abilities as coming from the sword, or perhaps he was trained as a warmage and happened to take to his supplementary martial education like a duck to water. ALL of the classes if you look at them at their very core are just mechanical choices. Do you want to be the Axe Guy (Barbarian), the Rapier guy (Rogue), or the the Fist Guy (Monk). It is up to the player to take what is their and expand upon it to define them as an individual.
@Sirokko: I think there's actually quote a bit of lore. It might not be explicitly stated in Golarion, but the martial mage is a pretty common trope in fantasy. Take Gandalf, for instance: Gandalf had far more martial ability than a Wizard or Sorcerer in Pathfinder would; I'd class him as a staff Magus, to be honest.
People don't like the Magus because they hate fun.