Made my day.
This is much improved from KS video, so much to see again & again.
Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you for the video.
I see it has hit the massively.joystiq.com newspage already, hopefully other gaming news sites will be soon to follow.
It's really great that you produced such an excellent video right before you start taking new donations (because you are going to do that soon, aren't you??), nothing creates buzz like a good ol' video.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great stuff!
Highlights for me were the fighter animation (please make sword and board a viable option) and the ogre.
As far as the armor, It's a good start but right now its kind of bland. Hopefully we can dye it or add patterns or decorative designs, especially to the plate and chain, to spice it up a bit. Also I am assuming this is tier one and better, rarer armor will also look more "epic"
No issues with dying or adding 'warpaint' patterns, but I hope it doesn't turn into so many other games where pauldrons and vambraces are just plain silly. I might be old fashioned, but I like armor to be functional and look that way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No issues with dying or adding 'warpaint' patterns, but I hope it doesn't turn into so many other games where pauldrons and vambraces are just plain silly. I might be old fashioned, but I like armor to be functional and look that way.
I second that opinion. Also, great to see wizard robes that don't look like dresses sewn together from nightsheets.
Some more 'expensive looking' armors with more complex ornaments might be ok within these styles for those who want them, problem is (to me) when a group of 50 supposedly rugged soldiers show up, all looking like they are wearing some prince's ceremonial show-off armor.|
Goblin Squad Member
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Great stuff!
Highlights for me were the fighter animation (please make sword and board a viable option) and the ogre.
As far as the armor, It's a good start but right now its kind of bland. Hopefully we can dye it or add patterns or decorative designs, especially to the plate and chain, to spice it up a bit. Also I am assuming this is tier one and better, rarer armor will also look more "epic"No issues with dying or adding 'warpaint' patterns, but I hope it doesn't turn into so many other games where pauldrons and vambraces are just plain silly. I might be old fashioned, but I like armor to be functional and look that way.
Hear, hear! I like the look of what's been done, and I REALLY don't want to see shoulder armor bigger than my head, or anything covered in skulls or weirdly colored.
Also, hooray for no bikini plate armor or lingerie-style wizards' robes! I'm fine with that for options later on, but I don't want to be forced into wearing it because it's the default "female" armor, and it looks like GoblinWorks is deliberately NOT going that way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Question for the man of the hour, Mr. Mark Hines; can you confirm what it was we saw with those different body types? Are those different races or the different human bodies that will be available? There was a very small looking model at the end.
Hmm I'll add a related question if I may. I thought the dwarves looked a bit on the large side. Has some smaller races been scaled up in order for details to be easier to inspect?
EDIT: nevermind, apparently dwarves are supposed to be that large in Pathfinder, according to the rulebook.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) Very pleased with the elevation development (yah, I know Nihimon, more work ahead). It appears that the area west of the Sullen River is more extensive than the Thornkeep map indicated.
It occurred to me that you might not be able to access the link I posted earlier, so here it is again the proper way: Pathfinder Online Map.
Of course, you might well want to grab your own screencap...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Areks, you'd have to quote it before I fixed the link... I recommend you read up on the Types of Hexes at the link.
Areks and Nihimon - yes, the light yellow/green hexes are the settlements and the pink/purple hexes are the monster hexes...
The majority of Hexes are Wilderness Hexes. The Settlement and Monster Hexes are peppered throughout, but neither is limited to the named hexes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have look in the official map... in term of... i don't what name to give, the mosswater region shouldn't have more monster hexes? I mean they have a invasion of mutant morrow and this is why the crusader road is no longer pratical. I would expect a lot more monster. Because it is more easier just recreate the crusader road than going to thornkeep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm going to put my "Goblin Squad" t-shirt on right now!!!I wish I could! My wife stole mine before I even ordered it, demanding that I get it in her size :)
No worries! The Goblinsquad store will allow you to buy more once it is up and running.
Lisa
Yay! Since I don't have one at all, this is very good news.
I sense a Christmas present buying binge...
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Just so I don't sound like I'm coming out swinging, please know that everything I don't mention here filled me with warm fuzzies and glee. Love the landscapes, love the look, love the armor design, love the animation, love the settlement looks.
However.
1) Lose the boob-shaped heavy armor. Seriously, twirling swordsmen I can deal with to an extent, but I'm pretty sure I'll remember my character is female without her breastplate being literally a breastplate. It's unnecessary (breasts compress), martially unsound (deflecting blows towards instead of away from squishy bits), and dangerous (creating a wedge that points straight at your sternum -- that thing that keeps your ribs together). Seriously, you can have a jutting accent in the chest area to accommodate endowed female anatomy -- after all we have armor designed to accommodate quite a large gut -- just remove the steel cleavage and I'll be happy.
2) This is a reiteration from the last look we had at armor -- lose the boob window on the female light armors OR make a similar hole on the male light armor. Even if there's not going to be "night on the town" outfits to give us our sexy fix, adventurers shouldn't have exposed squishy bits for no reason. When the only reason the outfits are dissimilar is one is male and the other female I start to think there isn't a legitimate in-world reason. Not like the ogre is going to appreciate it in any other way except "Ooo! Speer go der!" C'mon. Leave that to the "Hark! A Scantily Clad Woman! Free To Play!" MMORPGs.
3) Vastly less important, but twirling in combat when an opponent is in front of you is only ever explicitly mentioned as martially sound in use of the Montante (Big Ass Sword), Dom Diogo Gomes de Figueiredo's Memorial. It's a quibble compared to my other two points, but if you are looking at more realistic fighting, I can't see sword and board being very twirly. Great swords, on the other hand -- twirl away! Add a little jump! Mr. F says to in Simple Rule/Lesson 14!
That's pretty much it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...3) Vastly less important, but twirling in combat when an opponent is in front of you is only ever explicitly mentioned as martially sound in use of the Montante (Big Ass Sword), Dom Diogo Gomes de Figueiredo's Memorial. It's a quibble compared to my other two points, but if you are looking at more realistic fighting, I can't see sword and board being very twirly. Great swords, on the other hand -- twirl away! Add a little jump! Mr. F says to in Simple Rule/Lesson 14!
Agree on the boobish plate armor, recommend leaving the cloth, light, and medium armor selection to the character's taste but provide ample variety to select from.
I found the swordplay unexpectedly sensible and well thought. The zornhau after the spin would be a dangerous maneuver, even a gamble, but could be useful in preparation, remise, or as an overstated Quartata defense followed by beating or forcing the expected parry. I would prefer seeing a Neuvieme (Parry #9, behind the back) incorporated in the spin, however, given there was no shield.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) Very pleased with the elevation development (yah, I know Nihimon, more work ahead). It appears that the area west of the Sullen River is more extensive than the Thornkeep map indicated.It occurred to me that you might not be able to access the link I posted earlier, so here it is again the proper way: Pathfinder Online Map.
Of course, you might well want to grab your own screencap...
I did see it. Thanks. I need to play with the aspect ration to see, but your capture looks fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I found the swordplay unexpectedly sensible and well thought.
The one thing I was curious about was the wielder thrusting his sword with his right hand while his right foot was far back. I don't know if that's the way it's actually done, but it's the opposite of the way you'd try to do something in Aikido, where you want the "same hand same foot" forward.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kwizzy,
1) Totally agree.
2) The only set that I find that has a boob window looks like cloth to me, with the male version being covered only by a thin shirt or something in the same spot. That wouldn't provide any protection anyway so in my view it comes down to fashion. If every female clothing top shows skin and none of the male ones do, I would be disturbed. However, (I'm no fashion historian, please call me out on any £¤%&s#%@ here) during most of the history of western civilization, women's clothes have tended to cover less skin, especially when it comes to décolletage? Hopefully they can create some male clothes displaying skin as well, perhaps one-shoulder shirts (like toga-style) or something. A single example of female clothing showing a little bit more skin does not really make the case for me (although it will be interesting to see if it will be a strong continuing trend). Allowing player choice where this is concerned, as Being suggested, seems like a good idea to me as well.
3) Err.. you seem to know way more about this kind of stuff than I do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not used a blade with a shield, so I am unsure whether the weight and need to bear it strongly might have the footing so or not. In Foil and I believe Epee a right-hander leads with his right foot. In competitive saber I believe crossing the legs at all is an illegal move and the ploy of shifting the grip forward to gain a half-inch is even regulated when you can do it, so yes the reach of the blade is considered paramount (after control), but all that is sans shield.
If your opponent is infighting, fighting so close that a regular stance would require the blade to be withdrawn in order to effective parry or thrust, then that half-step difference can make sense. But it does seem a bit of a stretch.
Has anyone fought with blade and shield who can clarify?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I enjoyed the rugged look of the gear and clothing; however, I can't say I necessarily agree that fighting moves have to match up with real-world equivalents. I want some high fantasy in there.
Yes, let's not lose sight that this is Pathfinder and that the characters by definition are fantastical warriors that are capable of combat maneuvers not found in the history books. You won't find whirlwind attack in your fencing manual.
I saw this video hitting the absolute sweet spot for combat/weapons/armor that is "credibly fantastic". They do NOT have the dreaded Warhammer look (WoW stole it from warhammer figures) but they have just enough oomph too look good next to a dragon.
I am in awe of how good it looks, I'd say the regular Pathfinder drawings are actually 10 degrees more fantastical than this and not as nice. Mark Hines is a genius, this is exactly what I wanted.
Re: boob plate
I think we will see boob and non boob plate in every category eventually. I don't find relatively toned down boob plate to be in bad taste, it's the chainmail bikini stuff that pisses me off.
It's an integral part of the trope for heroic fantasy characters to be sexualized. The key is to do it in a mature and discreet way and not the absurd childish sexualization we see in most video games nowadays.
...3) Vastly less important, but twirling in combat when an opponent is in front of you is only ever explicitly mentioned as martially sound in use of the Montante (Big Ass Sword), Dom Diogo Gomes de Figueiredo's Memorial. It's a quibble compared to my other two points, but if you are looking at more realistic fighting, I can't see sword and board being very twirly. Great swords, on the other hand -- twirl away! Add a little jump! Mr. F says to in Simple Rule/Lesson 14!Agree on the boobish plate armor, recommend leaving the cloth, light, and medium armor selection to the character's taste but provide ample variety to select from.
I found the swordplay unexpectedly sensible and well thought. The zornhau after the spin would be a dangerous maneuver, even a gamble, but could be useful in preparation, remise, or as an overstated Quartata defense followed by beating or forcing the expected parry. I would prefer seeing a Neuvieme (Parry #9, behind the back) incorporated in the spin, however, given there was no shield.
I have to respectfully, but cautiously, disagree on both points. How Pathfinder Online approaches armor from a visual point of view will inform the overall feel of the game, yes? Choice is all well and good, and I'm not about to say any choice is wrong -- I know of at least one reported instance of a woman who fights in boobplate -- but those options add to development costs and time.
What real worth is there in more martially unsound armors that instead of 100 pieces of sensible, functional armor there are instead 50 pieces of sensible and 50 "well if I'm going to be looking at a hinder all day..." armor? Or 75 pieces of functional armor and 25 non-combat vanity outfits? Or a benefit to wearing no armor for Barbarians for all those Conan/Red Sonja lovers out there?
It's not that there isn't a place for sexy armor. I just don't think that place needs to be Pathfinder Online. It's already kinda common. The question to answer is what kind of Fantasy does Pathfinder Online want to come across as, and to whom are they trying to appeal? The message I'm getting is that someone still has the blinders on as to what "female" armor is supposed to look like, and I might have to choose between armor stats and armor looks if I play a female character. Which means I'm less interested in the project as a whole.
Without sexy options for females or males, what is honestly the downside? All characters look like they're being taken seriously? For every mythical moron who won't play consciously or not because, "not enough sexy lady armor," there will be another that will because, "awesome, sensible lady armor!" Please don't make me get into textbook subject/object differentiation and how nonsensical sexualization does not equal proud sexuality. If you wouldn't/won't put the gentleman in the design, don't put the lady in it.
Heaven knows I'm not getting the message that I can get the same things out of playing a male character as a hetero guy gets out of playing a female character. I'm not getting "No Girls Allowed" by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm also not getting, "We Treat All Our Characters As Serious, No-Nonsense Adventurers," or "This Is A Fantasy So We Have Fun Making ALL Our Characters' Outfits Sexy And Awesome." I'm getting something totally unaware that anything is amiss or unusual. Men get awesome, women get awesome plus/minus reminding you that there's a lady body under there. That's the problem, because clothing characters ready for battle differently based on their gender is unusual in a purely rational sense. A tailored fit? Sure. Missing pieces? Whaaaat?
I'm asking for equal treatment. That's it. Not complicated. So, better show off some sexy man-chest or abs or thighs or oh god ANYTHING, or change the female armor, or I'm going to feel neglected.
Now, to talk swords and physics -- the really important thing in a thread about fantasy settings!
As to the twirling, I agree that I was surprised how good the combat animation looked. I may have even seen a little Italian Rotella influence. He also didn't do too many movements that would invalidate the whole point of wearing a shield -- the huge suicide movements where the shield ends up forgotten and useless. However, twirling makes sense in two contexts: someone behind you -- in which case you half-twirl to face them -- and really big swords.
As I see it, you don't generate enough power by twirling to make the tempo you lose worth it. (Yes, I'm aware of the plate in Agrippa, but this is sword and board, not rapier.) In fact, I suspect you'd generate less power twirling than taking a step and cutting from the shoulder, using the hips and core. But even if you could generate lots of power twirling, if you're close enough to be in measure, where it would matter, you're close enough for your opponent to either stab you in the back and/or get close enough to intercept your arm on the way around. At that point any power generated doesn't matter -- you're either bleeding, grappled, or have a broken arm courtesy of your own swing meeting a well-placed weapon or shield. If you're not in measure, you've spun around and swished through the air uselessly, creating a great opportunity for your opponent to move into measure and create an opening.
The difference, I think, with a 5+ pound sword after a spear thrust (the context of Mr. F's 14th Rule where he advocates swinging the sword all the way around) is that the sheer weight and mass of the weapon makes the idea that the motion will generate more power and speed swinging it 360 degrees plausible, and a thrust or thrown spear implies a wide measure that needs to be closed and fast. Because the sword is so long, there's little concern about the opponent being able to get close enough to grab your arms from measure. The other detail of the Rule (think Kata) is that to stop the initial spear throw/thrust you're supposed to knock it aside. This means, I think, that you're already moving fast and intently, and instead of stopping on the left side the idea is to continue the motion all the way through. I don't think this is advisable with weapons any smaller or lighter. If there's a longsword (two-handed, 3-ish pounds) play from any one of the many masters whose works survive that advocate 360 degree twirl I have yet to see or hear about it.
That's my armchair analysis anyway. A one-handed, two pound sword isn't going to see much benefit from a twirl.
That all said, I'm going to feel good I said it but not assume I'll be heard. Twirling is a proud choreographic tradition and boobplates and boob windows are a proud(?) fantasy tradition.
Tl;Dr version: All sensible armor is better than fifty-fifty sensible/sexy for females. Equal treatment is good. Twirling isn't sound with a sword and board setup because time, space, and mass.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't limit the fencing discussion to symmetrical engagements; how would one wield that sword versus someone with daggers, a polearm, a crossbow, and a bullwhip?
By running very fast: someone wielding more than one dagger, a polearm, a crossbow, and a bullwhip would either be named Shiva or Inspector Clouseau.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't relatively toned down find boob plate to be in bad taste, it's the chainmail bikini stuff that pisses me off.Typical Guy. Loses the ability for coherent speech on the topic of "boobs".
Everybody yell boobies in your best Yoda voice!
To Kwizzy I'll say I don't know where you get that Pathfinder characters are supposed to be "serious all the time adventurers."
Sounds like a book I wouldn't want to read.
They are fantasy characters and are allowed to have a sword that's just a couple inches too big (wink wink), body builder muscles despite no weight room and yes...boob plate. It's part of the genre, always has been.
If the fighters look too real in their armor and movements, they won't look very intimidating next to the dude casting fireball
CEO
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Just wanted to remind folks that the artwork style in Pathfinder Online draws its inspiration from the artwork in the various Pathfinder books, not real life. Pathfinder is a fantasy RPG game, and its artwork is much more stylized than real life. There are things in Pathfinder artwork that you won't find in the real world, such a armor that shows the female form. Check out Seelah, our iconic paladin. We don't show cleavage, but the armor is formed so it accentuates her breasts. That is fantasy. It isn't realistic or have any relation to what works in real life. And Pathfinder Online will follow a similar aesthetic. We aren't trying to make a medieval simulation. We aren't trying to be true to the real world. There will be tons of options for everyone. But the look and feel of Pathfinder Online will be identical to the Pathfinder books Paizo publishes. If you are looking for a game that is more realistic or looks different than what you see in Paizo's books, then Pathfinder Online isn't going to be for you. If you want a gritty fantasy world with some amazing fantasy graphics, then you will love what we are doing.
-Lisa
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Goblin Squad Member
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I found the swordplay unexpectedly sensible and well thought.The one thing I was curious about was the wielder thrusting his sword with his right hand while his right foot was far back. I don't know if that's the way it's actually done, but it's the opposite of the way you'd try to do something in Aikido, where you want the "same hand same foot" forward.
For what it's worth, I expressed this as a curiosity because it's precisely that, just a curiosity. I didn't have any complaints about it at all, and I certainly didn't mean to come across like I was chastising the art team for not pursuing absolute realism.
... Check out Seelah, our iconic paladin. We don't show cleavage, but the armor is formed so it accentuates her breasts. That is fantasy. It isn't realistic or have any relation to what works in real life. And Pathfinder Online will follow a similar aesthetic. We aren't trying to make a medieval simulation. We aren't trying to be true to the real world. There will be tons of options for everyone. But the look and feel of Pathfinder Online will be identical to the Pathfinder books Paizo publishes. If you are looking for a game that is more realistic or looks different than what you see in Paizo's books, then Pathfinder Online isn't going to be for you. If you want a gritty fantasy world with some amazing fantasy graphics, then you will love what we are doing.
-Lisa
Egads, I don't want medieval simulation either. I hate to think how misogynistic that would end up regardless of history.
So... Where's my male paladin with an accentuated, phallic codpiece? After all, I need to know he takes pride in his manhood. And what about beards? While we're talking idealized secondary sex characteristics, there needs to be much more beards.
I love everything about Seelah except that breastplate. I know, it seems like a pet peeve. But, why? Why accentuate the breasts? If it's so we know she's a woman, can I point out that we can see her face and she's not terribly androgynous? Can I point out that there's a myriad of ways visually to tell if someone is a woman besides breasts, but those get an inordinate amount of attention at the expense of sense?
I don't want to be unfair here. I know breasts are great and everyone loves them, albeit in different ways. Personally, I don't feel that not having breasty breastplates somehow diminishes the idealization of female warriors. It's not like she stops being a female the moment breasts are no longer easily distinguishable beneath her armor. I think breasts are low on the list of things that make me feel awesome as a female warrior/wizard/what have you. I think a breastplate that looks like it could take a tank shell and has a big pretty flower on it makes me feel awesome.
I'm not asking for super historical realism. Function being sacrificed for Beauty is something I understand. But for whom is the beauty meant? Is it so women can realize their idealized fantasies about themselves in a game world? Or is it for another, less noble reason? I can tell you the message I'm getting from the artwork.
"Pathfinder Online: No Surprises Here."
I wish it were different. I want to be pleasantly surprised rather than, "Well, it could be much, MUCH worse."
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Goblin Squad Member
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... Is it on Youtube?
it is.
...and can i just add, that your vid left me with this thought,
"i`m one of the not-actively-pvp-crow, but, will i be there to defend my settlement? hell yeah!
and, ;)as 'nobody' seems to mention that, i loved the music, more please:D
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are looking for a game that is more realistic or looks different than what you see in Paizo's books, then Pathfinder Online isn't going to be for you.
@Kwizzy - I get you don't like the look and would like something different ie practical. That's cool and I respect that. However, it's the look of Pathfinder... Don't like it, play something else. Me personally, I like the idea that they are trying to stick to the original artwork... that is something that drew me to the game. And if you are judging this game by how it looks, I've got three letters for you. EVE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kwizzy - I get you don't like the look and would like something different ie practical. That's cool and I respect that. However, it's the look of Pathfinder... Don't like it, play something else. And if you are judging this game by how it looks, I've got three letters for you. EVE.
i think this is a bit easy, there still is a lot of sexism in fantasy, even if there are no more chainmail-bikinis.
for an insiders(artist) look on the matter, i might point you to hereso, i think it is only valid to ask why.
at least female characters should have the possibilities to dress differently
---if this discussion continues though, i`d recommend it gets its own threat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Egads, I don't want medieval simulation either. I hate to think how misogynistic that would end up regardless of history.
So... Where's my male paladin with an accentuated, phallic codpiece? After all, I need to know he takes pride in his manhood. And what about beards? While we're talking idealized secondary sex characteristics, there needs to be much more beards.
I love everything about Seelah except that breastplate. I know, it seems like a pet peeve. But, why? Why accentuate the breasts? If it's so we know she's a woman, can I point out that we can see her face and she's not terribly androgynous? Can I point out that there's a myriad of ways visually to tell if someone is a woman besides breasts, but those get an inordinate amount of attention at the expense of sense?
I don't want to be unfair here. I know breasts are great and everyone loves them, albeit in different ways. Personally, I don't feel that not having breasty breastplates somehow diminishes the idealization of female warriors. It's not like she stops being a female the moment breasts are no longer easily distinguishable beneath her armor. I think breasts are low on the list of things that make me feel awesome as a female...
The male heroes in fantasy are also extremely sexualized. Pick up any Conan novel and you'll find enough homo-eroticism to make the Village people blush. Same goes for the art that defines the genre like Frazetta and Royo. The men are always depicted as ridiculously muscular and aggressive to show their virility.
I routinely run into video games where I am unable to make my male characters "unmuscular" just like it's hard to to make females with small breasts.
The sexism of old school fantasy comes in the roles that male and female characters take. But have absolutely no doubt that both sexes are sexualized in the genre and that is part of the "fantasy".
Like I said before, I like where PFO looks to be aiming. The sexuality is there, but dressed up more for the times and tastes we live in as opposed to the lipstick warriors and he-mans we see in other places.
