Expanded Arcana..Worth it or not for a summoner


Advice

Liberty's Edge

Simple question is it worth it and if it is how many times. I am building this character to be a battlefield shaper/party buffer. Not the dude who summons a bunch of creatures and sits back. Also I will never summon an eidolon I don't like the concept.

Dark Archive

Do you mean you will only summon one creature at a time?

Otherwise, why in the world would you use a class with such a limited spell list and fewer spells per day? Did you find a archetype besides synthesist that trades out the eidolon?

The Eidolon is the _MAIN_ class feature. If you never summon it, or at least use the summon monster SLA of the class, you are very seriously short hanging yourself.

Liberty's Edge

No I am doing a master summoner, yes i will use the SLA monster summoning that to me is what a summoner is all about. I just don't care for the eidolon concept

Dark Archive

The master summoner still has a lesser eidolon. To not use it short changes yourself.

You claim, you are not going to stand behind and send in monsters? So what do you plan to do? Spend one or two rounds on summoning and then diving in? Or continuing to support with buff spells from the rear? That supportiing Sounds like standing back to me.

If you want to shape the battlefield and buff, you might want to just buy scrolls and/or wands to buff. Not for field shaping spells that require saves though. The saves on scrolls and wands are so low, they are not worth buying. So you have few spells per day but could use them to shape the field and use scrolls to buff. With so few spells per day though, that would be a lot of money spent on consumable buffs.

Are you awear that almost every creature below summon monster 6 is mostly garbage? Even with master summoner free augment summoning. The SLA will provide next to nothing but speed bumps on the battlefield. Or you will have to be lucky to roll high. You also might be able to get away with them if the DM runs published adventures and does not change them. I find most published adventures write a bunch of chumps into the villains parts, makes it less likly that they do not kill several PCs and influencing people not to buy those products again.

You do not have to like something to make use of it. I do not feel a half powered eidolon is worth it but again, you can use it as a free scout, trap finder, speed bump to block charges, whatever. You cannot trade it out for something else so why gimp yourself and refuse to use it at all?. You can even customize it to do particular jobs well. For example. You could give it the evolution that gives a +8 to a skill. A scout with that evolution twice for both perception and stealth may be very helpful. You can even pick them as class skills for the eidolon.

Liberty's Edge

Let me explain myself better, I plan on using my SM as walls,barriers,buffers whatever the party needs. Lets suppose you are in a rather large area and you dont want to worry about being attacked on all sides usage of SM, pits, grease,walls can funnel the battle into the "kill zone". Why because I have played serious kill machines and am looking for a change/challenge.

The eidolon does not appeal to me because when I think summon i think summoning monsters, I wish they had an archetype that did not have an eidolon. But they don't so here I am.

So What do you think of Expanded Arcana is it worth it and how many times BTW I plan on using the version that gives you 2 lower level spells.


Normally it wouldn't be (as extra evolution is normally better, but you don't use your pet), but since you don't use those, yeah, it's worth it. Just make sure to take any needed summoning feats before going extra arcana.

Liberty's Edge

I am going to do the extra summons and superior summoning and great fort/iron will.

Silver Crusade

@Azixirad Why not play a druid? You can turn any spell into a summon spell, you get a lot of battlefield control options and you can heal and buff as a side benefit. Take a good look at the spell list.


Druid list sucks compared to summoner.


They do have an archetype that doesn't have an eidolon.

It's called a wizard harry.

Dark Archive

You will need spell focus and the improved spell focus if you want those pit spells to not just shape the field but also actually take someone down.

Why are you so against playing a conjuring wizard? Or a sorcerer?

I am very, very hard pressed to believe expanded arcana is worth it. Especially after what a wrote about useing your spells known and high cha/DCs for pits and scrolls for buffs.

Liberty's Edge

Errantpursuit & TarkXT, I have played a druid before it was fun. but ready for something new

I Hate Nickelback, that is strangely satisfying to type, I too like the summoner list

Raymond, Spell focus(conjuration), Will this affect my SLA also?
I thought about a summoning wizard but I will trade a reduced spell list for SM 11/day with extra summons lasting 10X longer.

With my admittedly strange build the feat choices are significantly reduced. Not necessarily a bad thing.


It can be worth it, depends on your level really, and how you play. The summoner's spell list is loaded with awesomeness, and more spells means more flexibility. Just remember that you can now retrain spells more or less at will, as long as you have the cash and time for it (Ultimate Campaign). While you can make do with 6 of the 1st and 2nd spell level spells, there are quite a few nice spells further up.
AN example, 3rd level, of which you only get 6 known at level 17, there's Black Tentacles, Charm Monster, Dimension Door, Dispel Magic, Fly, Greater Invisibility, Mad Monkeys, Minor Creation, Protection from Energy, Spiked Pit and Tongues. Many of which you can do without, but they are all NICE.

Other ways of getting more magical mileage would be the Summon Good Monster feat, with an expanded summoning list, your SM-to-spell list will also be expanded.
Or the Eldricht Heritage feat line, more precisely from the Arcane bloodline. Not only will you, eventually, get an expanded spells known list, but you can also get a familiar (or bonded object, bah!), and in turn, turn this into an improved familiar. May I suggest the Ratling? It's pure awesomesauce, with Tongues constantly (if you are chaotic evil, or have a lenient GM), Commune 1/week, and 3/day Dimension Door with which it can teleport you around the battlefield.
Or playing as a drow, and getting the Noble Drow feat line. This will get you Feather Fall, Levitate, Deeper Darkness and Detect Magic as SLAs. Cost three feats to get them at will (detect magic is constant here). So what? Well, pretty much all of your summoned monsters have darkvision, and so do you. In normal light, against enemies without darkvision, you can make them unable to target you (total concealment), but you can still target them. Now Deeper Darkness, and its little brother Darkness, are Target: object touched, and this is where I like to have an Eidolon, but you can do with a team mate. Have it/him/her/alloftheabove have a ranged weapon, cast the spell on the ammo, and presto, flying darkness.

Edit: Something I have wanted to do since Advanced Races came out, was to do a fetchling group, with one drow. The drow spams deeper darkness, and the fetchlings all have the Gloom Sight feat line, so that they can see in magical darkness. Fun ensures.

Liberty's Edge

Thank You Leisner for the always solid advice, I was leaning toward the EA feat for more 3rd level spells as that seems to be one of the omly levels that I would want to enhance.

I totally dig your fetchling/drow idea, I guess you could equip the fetchlings with smoke goggles in daylight conditions. I am going with a halfling and playing CG


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you believe that versatility=power in Pathfinder, then yes, Expanded Arcana can be worth it. I took the feat three (yes 3) times for my human Barbarian1/Lore Oracle 15. Even while taking extra spells each level for favored class bonuses. I haven't regretted it.

May I also suggest getting a Mnemonic vestment and a handful of utility scrolls, oh and maybe some rune stones (spontaneous pearls of power).

As for the eidolon, have you considered making it an impartial, extra-planar employee advocate/non-human resources director? It could have ranks in all the major planar languages, all of the creature identifying knowledges, maxed diplomacy and sense motive skills.

The eidolon might interview potential extra planar summons applicants and suggest promising candidates with the aptitude or experience needed for specific tasks. This could be played straight or for laughs.

"I hate to bring this up, but a few if the lantern archons have been growing uncomfortable providing backup to an Erinyes. Now I have a Bralani Azata on file who could do very well in her position. And his schedule has freed up recently - quite suddenly. I've tracked down some of his previous employers and all of them have given him glowing references, even the ones who've settled on the lower planes. I think he might be a good fit. I took the liberty of mentioning him to the archons and they say they are willing to work with him if you are. I can arrange an interview if you would like."

Liberty's Edge

Thats great stuff! Perhaps add in profession masseuse and hairdresser. Gotta stay loose and looking good after a hard day of adventuring. I dont know why But I keep thinking Doris is the perfect name

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Raymond Lambert wrote:

The master summoner still has a lesser eidolon. To not use it short changes yourself.

Are you awear that almost every creature below summon monster 6 is mostly garbage? Even with master summoner free augment summoning. The SLA will provide next to nothing but speed bumps on the battlefield.

Don't underestimate the value of speedbumps. Forgoing the use of the eidolon for the Master Summoner does give you the option of putting more creatures on the field. And I'd highly disagree on your call on the usefulness of the lower grade Summon Monster spells. They've always been very useful to me and the niceness of the standard action summon spell can't be ignored.

I have an Evolutionist Eidolon in PFS play. Sometimes I forego using my Eidolon entirely and simply mix thins up with my SLA's and my battlefield control spells. It's a very viable style of play.


Azixirad wrote:

Thank You Leisner for the always solid advice, I was leaning toward the EA feat for more 3rd level spells as that seems to be one of the omly levels that I would want to enhance.

I totally dig your fetchling/drow idea, I guess you could equip the fetchlings with smoke goggles in daylight conditions. I am going with a halfling and playing CG

Thanks.

As you are good, do take the Summon Good Monster. The added creature list is quite good., for example, and to shame the notion of lower level Summon Monster spells are useless, you can get on average three DC 16 Hideous Laughter with one casting of SM III. Three decent DC disabling attempts for one standard action? Yes please!
Another useful trick up the summoners sleeve is the Lightning Elemental. The small ones, gotten with SM II, gets a +13 bullrush/disarm/trip attempt against medium sized enemies wearing or wielding metal, which is most enemies any party will encounter. And if they succeed the disarm attempt, and it is likely they will if you use SM III (on average 3 of them), they keep the weapon as they are unarmed themselves. Or what about a SM II spell, which produces 3 small "speed bumps", which in turn have 9 attacks at +3 that does 1d4+2. Death of a thousand, small, cuts. Useless? Hardly. (This is all done assuming you have Superior Summoning, because that should be a given as a feat)

On the familiar side, you could go with a Tidepool Dragon (yes it is Chaotic Neutral, but you can get it as Chaotic Good). It isn't as useful as the Ratling, and it's not really a tool-user, but it does have Obscuring Mist and Hydraulic Push (7 times a day!), both extremely useful for a battlefield controller.
Couple Hydraulic Push with a pit spell. Fun. (or lightning elementals with a pit spell). Not so sure it is worth three feats though.
One note about familiars is the Greensting Scorpion, the Compsognathus or the Dodo (yes, that one). They all give you +4 to initiative, which can be stacked with the Improved Initiative feat, for a grand total of +8 , which you of course can stack with a trait and dex bonus. You could start 1st level, as a human or half-elf or any race with a +2 to dex wizard or sorcerer, with a +15 to initiative. Yikes!
Infact, if you do plan to take Improved Initiative with any character that doesn't already have a familiar, I'd say that this way is far superior (unless you are really starved for feats). You also get the Alertness feat and a Skill Focus feat thrown in, besides having a familiar can be useful in itself.

Do note, though, that the Dodo is the same size as a halfling (small). Of course with a permanent animal growth spell on it, you could use it as a mount...
It is mostly useless, but the hilarity of a halfling riding a Dodo from the movie IceAge, is just too much to not do at one time :D .

And I really love the idea of a non-human resource manager.
My own present Master Summoner's Eidolon is also my personal hairdresser (shaved bald character), and I kinda plan to give him one rank in Profession (chef), to make him my cook as well ;).

Well, I have rambled on enough, and you probably know all this already.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well if I knew it all I would not be on here now would I?, One thing I do know about is hangovers. Heres are some routines that work for me.

1. When drinking stick with this routine 1 drink, 1 water, 1 drink, 1 water etc..

2. If after doing #1 you get to a point where you say "shcrew that water, I dont want it". Make sure you have plenty of pedialite in your place of residence this blows gatorade out of the water.

3. Grease is your friend, I'm talking fried eggs, jack in the box tacos or delivery pizza.

4. Hair of the Dog..egads The healing power of 3 beers is severly underestimated, just don't go crazy or you will be back in the same boat manana.

Sovereign Court

Azixirad wrote:


The eidolon does not appeal to me because when I think summon i think summoning monsters, I wish they had an archetype that did not have an eidolon. But they don't so here I am.

.

If you can use 3rd party stuff look at the celestrial commander on the pfsrd.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Expanded Arcana..Worth it or not for a summoner All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.