Guys, none of the FAQs change how SLAs work... they function as per the PRD says they do, which is never touched in the FAQs. Spell level is clearly a part of how the spell functions.
The FAQ does tells us how to determine if a SLA is divine or arcane... this in no way implies a change in how it works or functions.
Edit: Daylight is not a second level spell and does not qualify for MT. You may be able to use a variant Aasimar, which have 2nd level SLAs.
Just gonna throw this out there, SoH Aasimar add racial heritage orc, do a combo urban barb and scarred witch doctor. On phone so i am too lazy to work out stat block.
so i was wondering if the combo above makes for a decent EK.
Just gonna throw this out there, SoH Aasimar add racial heritage orc, do a combo urban barb and scarred witch doctor. On phone so i am too lazy to work out stat block.so i was wondering if the combo above makes for a decent EK.
Decent for what? With the core witch list, its a meh fighter with decent debuffing (but few hexes). With the strength patron? Probably an ok fighter with spell backup, but I doubt you will outfight a real fighter even so.
And without a bonus spell mechanic, you may hurt solidly for spells per day.
I dont think its bad, but I do think a normal witchdoctors hexes are stronger.
Edit: hugest problem is that a wizards defensive spells (which you dont get except in parts from patrons) will likely be more valuable than your insane hp.
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Request for a quick clarification of the "arcane or divine" FAQ: SLA FAQ Clarification Request: Arcane / Divine
Please hop over there and click the FAQ flag!
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Problem for the Sorcerer / Oracle / MT?
Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast
So no using Oracle slots to cast Sorcerer spells known?
Of course, I think they meant something like: "Spontaneous spellcasters using Combined Spells to cast spells from a non-spontaneous class can only select spells that they have prepared that day using that non-spontaneous class ..." – But that's not what it says!
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I will fill in the gaps later, but outline of the 12th level Sohei Empyreal Aasimar Eldrich Knight. 20 Pb, no equipment, feats, spells, etc...so this is just a minimum.
12 Str (+1 12)
12 Dex
12 Con
10 Int
22 Wis(18 + 2 Racial +2 (4/8)
10 Cha (8+ Racial)
Fort: +8
Ref: +6
Will: +12
Melee: +11
Ranged: +11
AC: 17
HP: 87.5
Feats
1
2 (monk)
3
3 (EK)
5
7
7 (EK)
9
11
11 (EK)
Spells:
1 8
2 8
3 7
4 4
5 4
Known
0: 9
1: 5
2: 4
3: 3
4: 2
5: 1
Skills: 26
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int),Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str) and Use Magic Device (Cha).
+2 to Heal and Knowledge (Religion)
Special Abilities:
+1 Init (Sohei)
AC Wis to AC (Sohei)
Unarmed Strike
Diverse Training (EK)
Spell Critical (EK)
[spoilers]
Again, no equipment, so the numbers are much, much lower.
Areas of concern for me are :Agile Weapons, Spell Critical with improved crit (you have 4 extra feats and access to 10th level fighter feats) at 12th level, high Save and AC (including touch AC)
But this is a skeleton build. Feel free to fill it out and see if we can break it or not.
Start with straight Empyreal sorcerer, take Sohei second, then EK the rest of the way.
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Start with straight Empyreal sorcerer, take Sohei second, then EK the rest of the way.I have been trying to make this work but you are horribly dependant on being able to access guided weapons.
Yes and no. You have a BaB that is +1 over 3/4 classes at the same level and have access to the fighter weapon specialization feats through diverse training, meaning you have a higher baseline for attack bonus than 3/4 classes, and higher casting capacity.
You don't get the other class benefits. The question is if that is an even trade off.
I maximized Wisdom to see how much defense and casting I could combine with casting without having to worry about armor, but one could easily bring it down to an 18 (16 for 10 pts) and increase strength or Dex.
I put forward a caster who can hit with strong defenses (the saves are also really good). That isn't the only way to do it.
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Problem for the Sorcerer / Oracle / MT?
Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been castSo no using Oracle slots to cast Sorcerer spells known?
Of course, I think they meant something like: "Spontaneous spellcasters using Combined Spells to cast spells from a non-spontaneous class can only select spells that they have prepared that day using that non-spontaneous class ..." – But that's not what it says!
I am really not sure, it's a very badly worded ability.
A strict reading of the wording wouldn't allow any trading between two spontaneous classes but given you have to use a higher level spell slot its difficult to see what harm it would cause.
It's clearly intended to prevent a cleric/sorc/MT or druid/sorc/MT from spontaneously casting any spell on the cleric or druid list using sorcerer slots. Since there were no spontaneous divine casters in the PF CRB where the MT and its Combined Spells ability was introduced, I expect that the author of the ability simply didn't anticipate a double spontaneous MT. I'd treat the other class's "spells known" as "spells prepared" for purposes of this ability.
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It's clearly intended to prevent a cleric/sorc/MT or druid/sorc/MT from spontaneously casting any spell on the cleric or druid list using sorcerer slots. Since there were no spontaneous divine casters in the PF CRB where the MT and its Combined Spells ability was introduced, I expect that the author of the ability simply didn't anticipate a double spontaneous MT. I'd treat the other class's "spells known" as "spells prepared" for purposes of this ability.
Yup, that's clearly the way to rule it. But since this is a "stress test" thread, I'm going for the most overwrought interpretations of rules I can find. I've got a couple more I've noticed.
Like this one on Preferred Spell:
Choose one spell which you have the ability to cast. You can cast that spell spontaneously by sacrificing a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level. You can apply any metamagic feats you possess to this spell when you cast it. This increases the minimum level of the prepared spell or spell slot you must sacrifice in order to cast it but does not affect the casting time.
It doesn't say the spell slot has to be from the same class! Sacrifice a Cleric slot to fuel a Wizard fireball?
Now that's just silly, but here a couple related questions that may get slightly more traction:
** Can a Cleric with the Fire domain and Preferred Spell (fireball) sacrifice a non-domain slot to fuel a Cleric-version fireball?
** Can that Cleric sacrifice a non-domain slot to fuel a Wizard-version fireball?
Just gonna throw this out there, SoH Aasimar add racial heritage orc, do a combo urban barb and scarred witch doctor. On phone so i am too lazy to work out stat block.so i was wondering if the combo above makes for a decent EK.Decent for what? With the core witch list, its a meh fighter with decent debuffing (but few hexes). With the strength patron? Probably an ok fighter with spell backup, but I doubt you will outfight a real fighter even so.
And without a bonus spell mechanic, you may hurt solidly for spells per day.
I dont think its bad, but I do think a normal witchdoctors hexes are stronger.
Edit: hugest problem is that a wizards defensive spells (which you dont get except in parts from patrons) will likely be more valuable than your insane hp.
I was considering an "orc warlord reborn" style character, though the lack of scaling hexes (even if you pick up more with extra hex) and rage powers (again even if you pick up more with feats), you are still losing out on a ton of power which actually hurts the intended theme. It actually seems like I would be better off doing paladin/sorcerer, and picking up racial heritage orc feats. dip one sorcerer plus 2 levels of paladin then go EK at 4. Yes it's subpar to the individual classes, but would it pull it's own in a party?
edit: I wouldn't even need to do the scion of humanity trick, I could just be an orc Aasimar.|
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I believe this has always been the case with Preferred Spell as it doesn't specify where the sacrificed spell has to come from. It has been one method of actually getting some effective blasting out of a Cleric.** Can a Cleric with the Fire domain and Preferred Spell (fireball) sacrifice a non-domain slot to fuel a Cleric-version fireball?
** Can that Cleric sacrifice a non-domain slot to fuel a Wizard-version fireball?
I think that's got to be true for the first case: the Fire-domain Cleric sacrificing a non-domain spell to cast fireball. The restriction on domain-only spells is only that you can't prepare them with non-domain slots.
A similar case would be, say, a Divination specialist Wizard sacrificing a school spell to cast fireball. Pretty uncontroversially in the area of what Preferred Spell can do.
But it gets trickier with the MT, as it looks like a way to get around the restriction of Combined Spells in the case of your one Preferred Spell. So if I can sacrifice a Cleric slot to fuel a Wizard fireball:
A Wizard / Cleric / Theurge sacrifices a third-level Cleric slot to fuel a fireball that uses Intelligence as its casting stat.
For one spell, at least, you could do a heck of a lot more than you could through the Combination Spells ability. Imagine the blaster builds: Spell Synthesis to cast two Quickened, Perfected, and otherwise metamagicked fireballs, both using Intelligence as a casting stat, as a single swift action.
Legit?
GM is going to start running a game that's purely a dungeon crawl, no real social aspects, and probably going to be a mostly neutral\evil party, characters to start at 7th level and we're using a 25-point buy so stats will be solid.
I was going to test out my new Oracle curse\build but it might be a good opportunity to test one of the potentially 'broken' options here for PrC, if anyone has any suggestions.
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For one spell, at least, you could do a heck of a lot more than you could through the Combination Spells ability. Imagine the blaster builds: Spell Synthesis to cast two Quickened, Perfected, and otherwise metamagicked fireballs, both using Intelligence as a casting stat, as a single swift action.Spell Synthesis is a once a day thing and to be honest if you are allowing Spell Perfection you have already let yourself in for significant issues.
Haha. Both true!
Personally I think Preferred lets you use a slot from either class, even if its on both class lists and to choose which stat to use it with. I am not sure however there is a definitive answer as it's such an unusual situation the rules aren't there to deal directly with it.
That would be nice for the MT, for sure. This is probably a topic for its own FAQ thread.
so I just realized an aasimar battle oracle with the double sla trick might be a step towards problematic if you followed it up with EK levels you would end up with a BAB...of 12. You can start with a sorcerer bloodline that could be scaled using feats (sylvan plus boon companion) and picked up a secondary bloodline via eldritch heritage (I am fond of orc) and end up with all bloodline powers from one bloodline, a full powered animal companion, 11 levels of divine casting (whose slots you can use for arcane spells for a 1 level bump), 2 more base attack, and an oracle curse scaled to a level 11 oracle. In exchange you lose one level of spellcasting, bonus feats (some of the bloodline choices are terrible so not gonna lose sleep here), about 4 to 5 regular feats, and bonus spells. truth be told, that doesn't sound so terrible. straight sorcerer might still be better, but that would still be a welcome addition to the party (even if it reeks of feta and gouda).
edit:whoops meant to say you lose two levels of spell casting, and forgot to mention counting as an 8th level fighter and getting 2 combat feats.
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I think the thing that irks me the most about all of this, is that aasimar and tiefling are already the best regular PC races in the game, considering their flexible stats and SLAs and other abilities. They have significantly more race points that the other races (except a few), and they tend to be the 'go to' for min-maxers. I've got no problem with min-maxing. i'm just tired of seeing entire parties of tieflings and aasimars.
Either way, this thread has been very informative. I'm liking what I'm seeing.
so I just realized an aasimar battle oracle with the double sla trick might be a step towards problematic if you followed it up with EK levels you would end up with a BAB...of 12. You can start with a sorcerer bloodline that could be scaled using feats (sylvan plus boon companion) and picked up a secondary bloodline via eldritch heritage (I am fond of orc) and end up with all bloodline powers from one bloodline, a full powered animal companion, 11 levels of divine casting (whose slots you can use for arcane spells for a 1 level bump), 2 more base attack, and an oracle curse scaled to a level 11 oracle. In exchange you lose one level of spellcasting, bonus feats (some of the bloodline choices are terrible so not gonna lose sleep here), about 4 to 5 regular feats, and bonus spells. truth be told, that doesn't sound so terrible. straight sorcerer might still be better, but that would still be a welcome addition to the party (even if it reeks of feta and gouda).
edit:whoops meant to say you lose two levels of spell casting, and forgot to mention counting as an 8th level fighter and getting 2 combat feats.
anyone good with builds? I tend make characters as I go, with only some planning ahead (my friends call it Organic Character Building, or OCB for short), so someone good at theory builds wanna take a shot at this idea?
How is an orc gaining 3rd level arcane spell like abilities?Just gonna throw this out there, SoH Aasimar add racial heritage orc, do a combo urban barb and scarred witch doctor. On phone so i am too lazy to work out stat block.so i was wondering if the combo above makes for a decent EK.
an aasimar with the scion of humanity racial trait picking the racial heritage feat at first level and selecting orc.
I mentioned boon companion in the parenthesis. It is why your giving up 4 to 5 feats (though it should be 5 to 6 since i forgot skill focus)
boon companion only makes it 4 levels higher so its a 5th or 6th level animal companion tops depending on how many sor levels you take. EK levels don't count only sor levels.
lol whoops, oh well. The important thing is of course picking a arcana you going to get a lot of mileage out of.
I'm not too worried about the Aasimar EK, since the stat bonuses aren't in a great place.
So are you comparing to a 'coventional' qualifying EK with a Race who does have stat bonuses in a good place?
Well, Human with the Racial Heritage(Kitsune) and Magical Tail feats can qualify.
As well, Scion of Humanity Aasimar (who can now choose 'good' stat bonuses like +STR/CHA) using the same Racial Heritage/Magical Tail Feats.
Problem for the Sorcerer / Oracle / MT?
Combined Spells:
Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been castSo no using Oracle slots to cast Sorcerer spells known?
When MT was written there was no spontaneous Divine caster.
This does seem worthy of Errata/FAQ now that there definitely is spontaneous divine casters.
I think the thing that irks me the most about all of this, is that aasimar and tiefling are already the best regular PC races in the game, considering their flexible stats and SLAs and other abilities. They have significantly more race points that the other races (except a few), and they tend to be the 'go to' for min-maxers. I've got no problem with min-maxing. i'm just tired of seeing entire parties of tieflings and aasimars.
This is my feeling too. Paizo apparently made their choice specifically to allow this.
But if allowing these PrC builds early entry is so desirable, why not just Errata the PrCs to actually have early entry, like they Errata'd Paladin Double Smite damage to be more balanced?
so I just realized an aasimar battle oracle with the double sla trick might be a step towards problematic if you followed it up with EK levels you would end up with a BAB...of 12. You can start with a sorcerer bloodline that could be scaled using feats (sylvan plus boon companion) and picked up a secondary bloodline via eldritch heritage (I am fond of orc) and end up with all bloodline powers from one bloodline, a full powered animal companion, 11 levels of divine casting (whose slots you can use for arcane spells for a 1 level bump), 2 more base attack, and an oracle curse scaled to a level 11 oracle. In exchange you lose one level of spellcasting, bonus feats (some of the bloodline choices are terrible so not gonna lose sleep here), about 4 to 5 regular feats, and bonus spells.
is this actually a MT build, not EK? EK doesn't advanced divine casting, and you're seemingly referencing the MT ability to 'share' spellslots. are you actually using MT in here at all?
Absolutely.Well, Human with the Racial Heritage(Kitsune) and Magical Tail feats can qualify.As well, Scion of Humanity Aasimar (who can now choose 'good' stat bonuses like +STR/CHA) using the same Racial Heritage/Magical Tail Feats.
I may be missing something, but I don't think Magical Tail is really that great for this purpose. At first I thought it was just a 'select an SLA from this list' type of thing, but it actually says you have to take the SLAs /IN ORDER/, so you will need to take it 3 times to get a 2nd level SLA, or 5 times to get 3rd level SLA... on top of the Racial Heritage Feat. It should work OK for a Kitsune trying to enter MT , but it doesn't seem so hot for anything else.
Magical Tail (Kitsune)
Benefit: You gain a new spell-like ability, each usable twice per day, from the following list, in order: disguise self, charm person, misdirection, invisibility, suggestion, displacement, confusion, dominate person. For example, the first time you select this feat, you gain disguise self 2/day; the second time you select this feat, you gain charm person 2/day.
Also am I crazy or is dragon disciple/EK a great combo 1 level sor/1 level fighter EK for 3 levels DD for 4 then back to finish out EK. Hell an interesting idea would be to make up a fighter and or barbarian use SLA to qualify for DD then not pick up any caster levels until 4 or 8 level DD.
I think the Sorc1/Fighter1/EK3/DD... build works well, you could take 1 more Fighter level and then with 2 EK levels you can qualify for Fighter4 pre-req Weapon Spec, and Paladin2/Sorc1/EK2/DD... would certainly work great as well.
...But your idea to not take a caster class until after DD doesn't really, at least if you want to benefit from caster progression:
a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class
So if you don't already have a caster class before entering DD, you will never benefit from it's caster progression. you could technically still do it just for the class abilities and forgo casting completely, but if that's the case i don't think you would want to dip into a caster at mid-high levels.
repost:
The Trickery domain to get a 2nd level arcane SLA.
An Inquisition gets you access to Augury, a 2nd level divine SLA.
This seems like a very solid early entry for MT, and it is totally race-agnostic.
(it just needs a God that grants Trickery, the Inquisitions don't seem God-specific)Hell, you could even take Cleric1 to get the above, and then go Oracle/Sorceror if you wanted, and still do great.
Cleric/EmpyrealSorc/MT is probably best to focus on one stat, or Cleric/Wizard/MT if you don't mind splitting INT/WIS.
QUESTION: When PrCs have skill rank or feat pre-reqs, can you spend the normal feat gained with level up, e.g. level 3, and then qualify to take that PrC at level 3? the feat has nothing to do with the class, it's based on character level per se, and technically you should first be that character level before you can select a class... i'm just not that solid on the 'order of operations' there...?
QUESTION: When PrCs have skill rank or feat pre-reqs, can you spend the normal feat gained with level up, e.g. level 3, and then qualify to take that PrC at level 3? the feat has nothing to do with the class, it's based on character level per se, and technically you should first be that character level before you can select a class... i'm just not that solid on the 'order of operations' there...?
No. You first select the class, then you get all the goodies, including normal skills and feats. So you're always taking the PrC the level after you meet all the requirements.
First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes.html#_character-advancement
OK, so MT caster progression would need to be at -1/-2, since Favored Class can't violate the 1 rank/HD rule.
Hmm... Samsaran OR Dual-Talent Human +2 INT +2 WIS, Wiz2/Cleric1/MT+++
Peri-Blooded Aasimar (+INT/CHA) doesn't need Trickery Domain, so can choose Domain and God freely...