|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pretty straight forward, for those not in aware:
"The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements."
So let's build and see if it is or isn't exploitable. The goal isn't to prove it is broken, but rather to stress test to see if it is or isn't. Most PrC have skill requirements that functionally have the same level restrictions, but maybe there is an issue somewhere in there.
So far I have heard concern over
- Aasimar Eldritch Knights (Either Magus or Starting at 3rd with Wizard or Sorcerer)
- Mystic Thurge (can qualify at 4th level with only one lost level.
Possible other PrC to look at (off the top of my head)
- Arcane Trickster (now only requires one level of caster class) for a couple of races
- Bloodmage (Can start sooner)
- Divine Assessor (Can start sooner)
So...is it a problem or is it no problem. They asked, let's take a look.
Pretty straight forward, for those not in aware:
"The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6).
I did leave to go to the movies so I might have missed something. Where is this stated at?
I did leave to go to the movies so I might have missed something. Where is this stated at?
Right on the FAQ: http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rul ebook#v5748eaic9qow
Thanks. I was looking for a new FAQ when they only edited the old one. Yeah I don't like this ruling..
With that out of the way we may need to look at monsters in the bestiary also, and not just PC races since the same rules would apply to both.
I am not worried about the MT. That just means it starts to "not suck" sooner.
The EK will be improved by this.
I will look at some possibilities later..
I read the rules that way also, but I was hoping they would put in a rules exception that said "no".
In the PFS boards there has been a thread with some very interesting theory on MT and bloatmage specifically with early access. Some good posts in there include:
I have a bloatmage myself, and I don't think the early access will make them any more overpowered. I liked having to wait until 5 wizard to get my bonus feat. Plus their capstone is not that amazing.
Mystic Theurge I feel is the one that benefits the most from this change. Before, it was honestly one of the worst PrC traps the game has. Now it has become VIABLE. I still don't see them overshadowing a full caster in raw power. But if you are playing on a campaign with no dedicated wizard and cleric, the MT can now fill in effectively for both.
Eldritch Knight early I don't think is an issue. Looks to me that magus 1/EK X would be giving up a lot of other items to go that route. No spellstrike, no Arcanas... I would definitely do at least Magus 2... May be a bit better with straight fighter/wizard. Not sure on this one.
Actually I think the ONLY concern I have may be Fighters and rogues (gnomes for example) automatically qualifying for Arcane Strike feat. A lot of classes are "swift-action" light.
MT actually becomes decent between levels 15 and 17, but that is a long time to wait. Many games never go that far.
Well those academy rules make the MT decent without this ruling. I know about those..:)
Either it does or the academy ability does. I forgot which one.
Either it does or the academy ability does. I forgot which one.
those would be the faction rules for joining a particular guild. which requires your DM to use the prestige points houserule.
it is the prestige points with the guild/academy that improve your casting, not the feats
but if a DM is allowing factions and prestige points as a means to gain power, then it makes logical sense that everyone should be able to choose a faction to benefit from.
if the wizard is gaining 3 free levels via guild choice, then there should be guilds that allow other multiclassed characters to regain 3 levels of one of their classes.
I agree Lumiere. I knew they were special rules, which is why I would prefer for them to not count for this purpose. It is not something most GM's will use. I am sure if you use every book in existence we(the community) can find problems.
I think we should still to PFS legal things and/or the hardcovers..
Wasn't there a build that allowed entry into MT with only 1 of each base class?
I think there were several that had only 2/1 levels in base classes...
If you're trying to stress it, those are the ones to go to, not the 3/1+MT build posted above...
It probably makes sense to do what's possible with 'hardcover' builds first, and then tweak from there (PFS legal).
Perhaps allowing all PFS traits for both groups.
Wasn't there a build that allowed entry into MT with only 1 of each base class?
Aasimars with the Heavenly Radiance feat can get a 2nd level Divine spell in addition to Daylight (an arcane spell by default), so they can get in with any combo of 2/1.
As a fan of spontaneous casters, I'd prefer Sorcerer/Oracle, but Empyreal Sorcerer/Druid or Cleric would work fine. I know it's the classic, but I don't think Wizard/Cleric is that awesome since they need two casting stats, but they do get earlier spells.
Honestly, I'm most concerned because far more people can use Arcane Strike now, even Eidolons and Totem Guide Animal Companions. On them, or a natural attack focused druid, alchemist or whatever, Arcane Strike can add a lot of oomph.
I agree Lumiere. I knew they were special rules, which is why I would prefer for them to not count for this purpose. It is not something most GM's will use. I am sure if you use every book in existence we(the community) can find problems.
I think we should still to PFS legal things and/or the hardcovers..
here are the hardcovers i would consider usable in most DMs games
Core
APG
UC
UM
ISWG
ARG
i would recommend allowing full access to these and the companion and chronicle lines with the exceptions of the following
Armor as DR
Siege Weaponry
Hero Points
Spell Research
Anything from Game Mastery Guide or Ultimate Campaign
Faction Rules (Such as the ISM kind)
NPC Boons
Homebrew Items (the exceptions of Reslotting an item for the same price or Combining abilities on one item for a markup is fine, such as a vest of resistance +2 for 4,000 that takes up the shirt slot or eyeglasses of the raven that combine the 60 foot darkvision effect of goggles of the night with the perception bonus of eyes of the eagle for 15,750 gold are fine examples of allowable items)
other special rules that change how the system works
|
Humm EK eh...
So aasimar can now be even more OPed...great. 1 level of fighter, 1 wizard, 10 EK for a level 12 character that has level 10 casting and 11 BAB. And early access to all the BAB and fighter feats. Yes at higher levels this will eventually balance out. For PFS or lower level home games...umm problems much?
Interesting.
EmpyrealSorc1/SoheiMonk1+EK for WIS to AC, Monk UAS, Flurry, 1 Bonus Feat, and always act in Surprise Round
Sorc1/Pally2+EK for 1x Smite, Detect Evil, CHA to Saves (and AC w/ Smite), Lay on Hands 1d6 (just vanilla)
Humm EK eh...
So aasimar can now be even more OPed...great. 1 level of fighter, 1 wizard, 10 EK for a level 12 character that has level 10 casting and 11 BAB. And early access to all the BAB and fighter feats. Yes at higher levels this will eventually balance out. For PFS or lower level home games...umm problems much?
if you pick an aasimaar heritage that gets a 3rd level spell as a spell like ability. which means you are stuck with a bonus to wisdom and charisma. neither of which are your primary attributes and both of which might as well be dump stats for a fighter/wizard
you also don't get the bonus feat or skill points of being human
or the free spell penetration of the elf
which are character defining features.
you get at 12th level, +11 bab and 10th level casting, or 5th level spells
a straight wizard has 6th level spells and a whole 11 more levels of favored class bonuses than you. they also have school powers. the wizard didn't need your strength investment, could pick an intelligence boosting race, and get any one of a variety of useful advantages. the wizard didn't have to waste swift actions to cast in armor
a straight fighter has weapon training 2, access to gloves of dueling, and armor training 3, giving +5 to attack and +4 damage over you, +6/6 if they take greater specialization. this is before you factor the fighter is less mad and didn't require your intellect investment, and has a strength boosting race. you also give up the advantages of those races for early PRC access on a hybrid. the fighter also has a massive AC advantage.
The Angel-blood +WIS +CON should work well enough with the Empyreal/Sohei EK build.
Put most everything in STR, dump INT and CHA and put the rest in WIS and you're looking fine (adjust STR/WIS to preference)
If you want Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling, go Weapon Master 3/ Empyreal Sorc 1 or Scarred Witch Doctor 1 + EK.
The Angel-blood +WIS +CON should work well enough with the Empyreal/Sohei EK build.
Put most everything in STR, dump INT and CHA and put the rest in WIS and you're looking fine.(adjust STR/WIS to preference)If you want Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling, go Weapon Master 3/ Empyreal Sorc 1 or Scarred Witch Doctor 1 + EK.
Archon Blooded the Con/Wis one, gets continual flame as a spell like ability instead of daylight. meaning it just lost the 3rd level spell it was using to qualify at level 3 because continual flame is a 2nd level spell.
the core Aasimaar Qualifies because it has a 3rd level spell to use.
it could work with Sohei/Empyreal, but then you are stuck with the charisma bonus.
and 3 levels of weapon master means 4 lost caster levels, meaning you are a fighter who casts a few spells, making you a featureless magus with 4th level spells at level 12 and only 2 class features.
Just gonna throw this out there, SoH Aasimar add racial heritage orc, do a combo urban barb and scarred witch doctor. On phone so i am too lazy to work out stat block.
Ah, I think I overlooked that Continual Flame is only 3rd level for Clerics, and Sorc/Wiz has priority...
I think the Empyreal/Sohei build works well with Standard Aasimar, dumping CHA anyways,
the only downside of the point buy is losing the CON bonus which wasn't crucial anyways, otherwise the CHA just gets even lower :-).
Any of these seem better than any non-SLA EK build, and I know I've seen people defend their viability if you ignore the hill of pain (levelling), the SLAs are just helping you get thru that faster. Anyhow, just trying to throw out the best concepts since that's the point, I'm sure the MT's will be over-all more impressive in the larger scope of the game, but might as well compare the EKs with their peers as well.
Ah, I think I overlooked that Continual Flame is only 3rd level for Clerics, and Sorc/Wiz has priority...
I think the Empyreal/Sohei build works well with Standard Aasimar, dumping CHA anyways,
the only downside of the point buy is losing the CON bonus which wasn't crucial anyways, otherwise the CHA just gets even lower :-).Any of these seem better than any non-SLA EK build, and I know I've seen people defend their viability if you ignore the hill of pain (levelling), the SLAs are just helping you get thru that faster. Anyhow, just trying to throw out the best concepts since that's the point, I'm sure the MT's will be over-all more impressive in the larger scope of the game, but might as well compare the EKs with their peers as well.
i don't care that an aasimaar can become an EK at level 3. EKs needed the boost.
an EK, Mystic Thurge, or AT, becomes viable at lower levels now with the right race.
it is no different from racial archetypes.
in fact, most of these aren't too overpowered, maybe a little more versatile
but a lot of them give up something important
AT gives up BAB, HP, Rogue Talents, and Skill Points to gain a few spells. you can be more roguish at the low levels.
MT gives up school powers or bloodline powers, and either domain powers and channel, or revelations. to be at 14th level to be a Cleric 13/Empyreal Sorcerer 11 in spells with no other class abilities. unlike a cleric, armor interferes with your sorcerer spells, and you effectively traded away class features
a Sohei/Empyreal Sorcerer/EK is giving up the higher level sohei powers alongside the higher level bloodline powers to essentially be a magus with no arcanas, no spell combat, and no armored casting.
prestige classes only have a max of 10 levels apiece, and while you may be a little more viable at the low levels, you aren't any better after you complete the PRC.
|
|
Ciretose, I think this is an excellent approach to this issue. I'm a fairly conservative player when it comes to PC builds and GMing. I've seen a lot of angst about this ruling, but have been standing on the sidelines waiting for the dust to clear. The early entry options are immediately joyful to some, and viewed as horrendous to others. What the reality is is another story altogether.
There is an immediate reaction by some that early entry into prestige classes is inherently overpowering. However, this is a bit of a holdover from 3.5 thinking. As has been noted explicitly and by reference, spellcaster power is often gauged by highest spellcasting, by spell, not by caster level or quantity of slotsThe most effective MTs that I have seen are those that play to their strengths: the ability to lay down lots of lower level buffs rather than moaning about the loss of their higher level slots. Whether such a strategy is overpowering is another story, and depends a lot on style day regarding party size and encounters per day. More slots don't matter if they go unused.
PF's modification to the core classes and the addition of archetypes puts a very different light on prestige classes. The approach that is being suggested here is to stress test the situation. Not only to identify the reality of the unforeseen changes, but to compare them to otherwise available builds. Lets challenge our assumptions and get past the assumed problems to see where the real issues really are.
Kudos to setting up a thread to look at the systemic issue.
I think the fact that you can now hit the EK capstone within the standard PFS level range is pretty remarkable.
Personally, I always thought MT and EK's casting pre-reqs were too high to meet (conventionally),
I always thought that at least one half of MT should be lowered...
My reaction to the SLA situation with them now is mostly just doubt of why only a few SLA races can do early entry with them,
that if you want to use these classes you are now almost certain to use a handful of goofy races, which I think is a shame,
better that Paizo had ruled the FAQ differently and just adjusted the PrC pre-reqs like they adjusted Paladin Double Smite.
If they think MT or EK is fine with these few races, I don't see why it would be a real problem with normal ones.
Anyways, let's keep the thread focused on the stress test!
How many prestige classes do actually have a requirement for a specific spell, rathern than requiring the character to be able to cast arcane or devine spells of a certain level?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I liked the arcane allowances, but I was concerned at first about the PrC, but after looking at it:
1. Most PrC have skill restrictions that are functionally level restrictions.
2. Pathfinder has moved away from PrC on the whole and moved toward archtypes.
Spell critical at 12th level is pretty strong, and with a Sorcerer you still have a class that gives bonus to a key stat.
I think if there is a problem, it is really with the Aasimar more that the rule. The Aasimar breaks several rules of thumb (Gives a 3rd level spell as a base spell, Two mental stat bonuses, no stat penalty, resistances, etc...)
A simple correction (if we find a problem) could be to either give the Aasimar a small level adjustment or to add skill requirements to the PrC that don't have them.
By the way, props to the Devs for adding the "We are open to suggestion" part to the FAQ. This is one of the many reasons I love Paizo.
|
|
As to the stress test I'm inclined to believe that cleric / empyreal sorcerer is probably the best starting point. Your cleric casting will be equal to that of an oracle and you'll have sorcerer slots to back it up / provide flexibility.
So the question is if the sorcerer spells and abilities gained from MT are significantly greater than what you give up as a cleric in the form of channel and domains.
I think all agree this is better than regular MT, but MT has never been considered an optimized class.
|
I don't know. While you get synergy from Cleric2/empyreal sorc1/MT10, you're still advancing a reduced progression caster class.
If you split stats, you can go Wizard2/cleric1/MT10. I think that nets you something like 9th lvl spells and 7th lvl spells respectively.
And yet...
There IS something to be said for lore oracle/sorc. Noble scion moves your cha to init, sidestep slaps it onto your reflex and ac, and using a tiefling variant you can grab the fiendish sorcery/imp. fiendish sorc stuff.
It seems to me that there are a lot of interesting and potentially powerful ways to slap this together. What is really drawing my attention at the moment, however, are the remaining 7 levels. Yes, you could stick them back into one of the basic classes. But surely there's a better use for them in one of the myriad prestige classes. Sorc2/oracle1/MT10/bloodmage7 perhaps?
I do not know.
|
|
I was thinking about that as well. Barb/Sor/EK/ to Dragon Disciple is very interesting.
But is interesting broken...hard to say.
Speaking of Empyreal Sorcerer, Sohei Empyreal Sorcerer EK?
Sorcerer 1st
Sohei 2nd (get Martial, Bonus feat, unarmed)
EK 10 levels
Lose 2 levels of Casting and bloodline in exchange for:
Add wis (casting stat) to AC
4 Bonus feats (1 Monk, 3 EK)
+4 BaB
Much better saves
More Hit points
I'm not too worried about the Aasimar EK, since the stat bonuses aren't in a great place.
Although I had been planning on making a blasting Sorc (Orc bloodline) going into Bloatmage, and playing an Aasimar will let me get there 3 levels sooner. Since I'm not loosing much in terms of bloodline powers (most are geared toward making a gish), the only mark against that plan is that I already have two Aasimar characters in PFS.
You DO lose the upgraded Domain abilities though, which range from easily done without (Resist Fire, woo) to insanely good and flexible (War Domain, Travel Domain, Heroism subDomain).
Heck, in general, the better the domain the bigger the loss.
I dont see druids mentioned yet, unless i missed someone? Probably because they lose a ton of class features, especially if they wanted an animal companion or Wildshape. Painful.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yar!
Gnomes get Speak With Animals just for being gnomes. Speak With Animals is a 3rd level bard spell (Arcane), so a level 1 fighter gnome qualifies for Eldritch Knight.
Question: If the above mentioned gnome went into Eldritch Knight at level 2, what would his spellcasting class be? I assume Bard in this particular case (as that's what class the spell that let him qualify comes from), but I figure I should ask just to be sure.
Also, does that mean if the spell is a sorcerer/wizard spell, you get to choose which one you act as? (wizard or sorcerer).
Perhaps I missed something, but nowhere does it say you must have a level in a class that can cast spells, only that you can cast a spell of X level, and there is precedent with several monsters that they "cast as X class" without having actual class levels, so I assume this follows the same trend.
~P
Another cool thing with this is that your kitsune rogue can now take Arcane Strike.
Yar!
Gnomes get Speak With Animals just for being gnomes. Speak With Animals is a 3rd level bard spell (Arcane), so a level 1 fighter gnome qualifies for Eldritch Knight.
Per the PRD, the gnomes Speak With Animals functions as the druid version of the spell, not the bard one. After applying the FAQ, it is a level 1 arcane SLA.
Sorry.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
It may actually be worth looking at PrCs that have skill requirements as well, because this change allows the levels gained to fulfill the skill requirements to vary a lot more.
Abstract example:
(SLA race) Wiz 1/casting PrC 4/other PrC 10 where the "other" PrC requires skill ranks.
A more concrete example: does being able to take something like Bloatmage early synergize well with some other caster PrC such that the low level abilities combine in a powerful way?
Yar!
Yar!
Gnomes get Speak With Animals just for being gnomes. Speak With Animals is a 3rd level bard spell (Arcane), so a level 1 fighter gnome qualifies for Eldritch Knight.
Per the PRD, the gnomes Speak With Animals functions as the druid version of the spell, not the bard one. After applying the FAQ, it is a level 1 arcane SLA.
Sorry.
Perhaps I'm having a moment due to it being early, but where does it say that? All I see is this:
Gnome Magic: Gnomes add +1 to the DC of any saving throws against illusion spells that they cast. Gnomes with Charisma scores of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals. The caster level for these effects is equal to the gnome's level. The DC for these spells is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the gnome's Charisma modifier.
No mention of casting as a druid, just that it casts. Also, the FAQ mentions that it's defaulted to arcane unless the spell is only on a cleric or druid spell list. As this is on the bards, rangers, and druids, and bard is the only one of those that is actually arcane and SLA are defaulted to arcane, I'd think it would count as the bard version, which is level 3.
~P
Under the Universal Monster Rules for spell like abilities, there is a section which details how spells that function differently based on class (for example, spell level) are used. Specifically, it says it functions as the version used by the first class it appears in a hierarchy it provides, and druid is before bard.
I'd quote it for you, but I'm posting from a phone :/
And as a note, the faq does not specify rhe version of the spell used, only how you determine if a SLA counts as arcane or divine.
Under the Universal Monster Rules for spell like abilities, there is a section which details how spells that function differently based on class (for example, spell level) are used. Specifically, it says it functions as the version used by the first class it appears in a hierarchy it provides, and druid is before bard.
I'd quote it for you, but I'm posting from a phone :/
And as a note, the faq does not specify rhe version of the spell used, only how you determine if a SLA counts as arcane or divine.
And the FAQ changed that. Now it's arcane first, divine second.
Yar!
Under the Universal Monster Rules for spell like abilities...
Aha! Thank you. I found it. ^_^
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
EDIT: Now another question is: if the Universal Rule still holds, it looks like it is in reference only to spells that have different effects based on the casing class. If that is true, then Speak with Animals could still be considered a level 3 bard (arcane) spell, as it works the same for all 3 classes that can cast it.
~P