|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a class which I personally adore. Unfortunately it can easily produce an unoptomized pile of class features that isn't especially effective at anything. This is also my first attempt at a guide so I can't guarantee it's going to be very complete, but I hope it's at least helpful to someone interested in the class.
I'll eventually convert this to a Googledoc and expand it to include the role of the class and discuss the number of buffs and auras it can put up, as well as which ones stack with eachother.
Basically you're going to need at least +4 BAB, the Challenge and Inspire Courage class features, and 5 ranks in three skills, meaning the absolute earliest entry is 5th level. Battle Herald is essentially a fusion prestige class the melds two classes together, much like the Rage Prophet. As such the number of ways to qualify are intentionally limited.
Cavalier - The major decision here is whether you want to have 1 level of Cavalier or 4 levels. If you want your mount to actually matter or you want more Order abilities and Challenge uses definitely go with 4 Cavalier levels. And speaking of Orders...
Order of the Cockatrice - You are the teamwork guy and ideally you want to be close to your team all the time to hand out buffs, thus negating this Challenge. The morale bonus from Braggart will get overlapped by other abilities.
Order of the Dragon - If you intend to take 4 Cavalier levels this is actually a strong choice. The competence bonus from the Challenge stacks with Inspire Courage. And since you want to be close to allies you are often in position to Aid Another.
Order of the Lion - The dodge bonus to AC stacks with everything. The competence bonus against Fear effects also stacks with the moral bonus against fear from Inspire Courage and your Banner. Not too shabby.
Order of the Shield - The best reason to take this Order doesn’t come until 8th level and by then you don’t want to still be in this class. Not great.
Order of the Star - If you have a strong Charisma score and decided to take Evangelist Cleric you may consider taking 2 levels, but really you’d be better off with more levels of Cleric.
Order of the Sword - With all the moral bonuses you’re going to be throwing around the ones granted by this order will probably be overlapped early on.
Beast Rider - This could make your mount a little more durable and make it viable longer than the standard mount. If you intend to go with 4 levels of Cavalier and take Boon Companion this option isn’t bad.
Emissary - You lose Tactician in exchange for more mobility and mounted abilities. Taking Fleet and being able to move in medium armor is nice and will let you maneuver alongside your fellow combatants, but the main reason to do that was Tactician.
Standard Bearer - Yes. What was a lackluster archtype before suddenly becomes much more appealing. Because you aren’t likely to ever take more than 4 Cavalier levels the vanilla Cavalier would lose out on the Banner ability until much later. Standard Bearer fixes that by moving the Mount ability (which you don’t really want) to 5th level (which aren’t going to take). This is also the best 1 level dip option if you’d prefer 4 levels of Bard.
Strategist - Unless your party has other members with mounts or animals, take Strategist for the more useful Drill Instructor ability if you intend go 4th level Cavalier. Strategist can also be paired with Standard Bearer.
Samurai - Strictly speaking, this is a worse option than Cavalier. You want to be a team player and losing Tactician to the self-only Resolve ability isn’t great. While it’s nice that Resolve can refresh off of your Challenge ability, you will likely only ever have 2 uses of Challenge.
Swordsaint - This Samurai archtype replaces your mounted class features with more melee focused abilities, which can make it slightly better. The trouble is that these abilities scale with your Samurai level and you are a multiclass character.
Bard - The advantages of going 4 levels of Bard are many, including having 2nd level spells, more skill points, and upgrading your Inspire Courage to +2 as soon as you enter Battle Herald. We’ll also go over a few of the Bard archtypes here;
Cleric (Evangelist) - This is an interesting build with better spellcasting upfront and strong flavor. You may actually consider taking that 5th level of Cleric at some point for 3rd level spells. Any domain with a strong 1st level power that doesn't need a high Cleric level is a good choice. Nobility makes sense but won't really pan out unless you're especially high level. Animal can stack with the Cavalier's Mount but you aren't really going into Herald for a strong mount. Travel is a great choice for battlefield positioning.
Monk (Sensei) - This is also an option, though it carries with it the usual multiple ability dependance. You also won't get full use out of your armor proficiencies unless you decide to ignore your Monk bonuses. Technically the Battle Herald doesn't require a high Charisma score but it can't really be a dump stat either. Some Cavalier Order abilities do require Charisma, so if you go this route don't bother taking more than one level of Cavalier.
Cavalier 5/Pathfinder Chronicler 3 - Technically this works, but this is a really late entry into the prestige class. Definitely the worst option which goes back to that 'big pile of mismatched class features' problem. Not something to consider unless you are starting at high level.
I like dawnflower dervish bard 3/ order of cockarice standard barer 2 for a very Griffith from berserk feel.
Also don't forget about the ronin order.
I'm not sure if you wanted to cover 3pp stuff, but there is this archetype that was more or less made for a single class entry into this PrC.
I feel like no discussion of the Battle Herald is complete without mention of this feat.
unfortunately the requirement of six ranks of ride means the soonest you can take it is level seven.
Still, to me it makes the Cavalier 4/Inspire Courage Class 1 entry method super appealing.
- Torger
And suddenly, you can be an effective battle herald from atop a triceratops.
And how is that not awesome ^_^
- Torger
|
|
Update: Expanded Googledoc Guide is here!
I will edit the opening post and add more content later this weekend. Any critic or further suggestions are more than welcome.
Update: Expanded Googledoc Guide is here!
I will edit the opening post and add more content later this weekend. Any critic or further suggestions are more than welcome.
Solid start. I totally agree with a lot of what you're saying. My critiques would be as follows
1) You're super focused on the aid another build, which don't get me wrong is a great option It's very cool to see that there's now a way to make it really useful. However I think there are plenty of ways to make a great Battle Herald without taking any of the aid another options.
2) Since the cavalier's tactician ability is a part of the battle herald and it gives you free teamwork feats I would recommend a section comparing the various teamwork feats. For instance the outflank feat coupled with the pincer maneuver command could be an absolute godsend to any rogues or ninjas in the party.
3) Also some mention should be made of what your class options are after you've capped out battle herald. I suspect most people will just continue with whatever class they took the most levels in before battle herald but I feel like there are other options in there.
You've got the start to a great guide here. Kudos on the good work.
- Torger
P.S. I especially want to thank you for pointing out the standard bearer archetype. It's something I hadn't noticed or considered before now and I think there may be a character in it for me.
And one little nit picky edit, the feat is called Horse Master not Horse Lord.
- Torger
|
|
Much appreciated, Torger. At your suggestion I'll be expanding the feat list to include Teamwork feats and some strategy.
I started off heavily with Aid Another because it was on my mind at the time, but as you said it's by no means necessary. It's just one of many of the strong teamwork options that could be in the build.
At some point soon I'm going to try and add a chart or something showing all the auras you might have, their ranges, what bonuses they grant and which ones stack.
One more edit, you call out the bonus from the order of the dragon challenge as being competence when in fact it's circumstance.
And a good thing too otherwise it wouldn't stack with inspire courage.
- Torger
At some point soon I'm going to try and add a chart or something showing all the auras you might have, their ranges, what bonuses they grant and which ones stack.
Nice, that would be super useful.
- Torger
I've been looking at a sensei/cavalier build.
I think if you're only taking one level of your inspire class it's actually a solid option.
As I see it there's only two real downsides compared to bard.
- You split your performance and your command stat.
I honestly feel like this one's bad, but not deal breaker bad. You loose out on a few rounds of one or the other. Or a couple rounds of both.
- You loose your first level spell caster status.
Not so much bad for the few 1st level spells you loose but bad because you can no longer use wands or scrolls.
Everything else you loose doesn't really scale well anyway. Especially if you've only got one level of bard.
The upsides
- An extra +2 on your fort saves
That's kinda like the improved fortitude feat for free.
- Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist as Bonus Feats
Not amazing in themselves but they provide a lead in to improved grapple which could be fun.
- A boost to unarmed damage
I don't know about you but most of my characters end up punching someone at some point in their career.
- A bonus monk feat that you don't need the prereqs for
having dodge, combat reflexes, deflect arrows or improved grapple never hurt anybody
- Wisdom to unarmored AC
not useful most of the time but can't hurt to have for say midnight ambushes. Also I think there's a totally viable high WIS low(ish) CHA build out there somewhere that has the added benefit of being viable unarmored. I'm always a big fan of the unarmored visual.
- Never having to worry about arcane spell failure
This means no need to even consider spending a feat on arcane armor proficiency and mithral armor with it's extra cost becomes less of a must have and more of a might want.
Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting Sensei should shoot straight up to a blue level option but I think for a mostly cavalier battle herald build all the bonus feats make it at least green. Taking more than one level would be a mistake though, unless you were trying to make the unarmored battle herald work. In which case the 2nd level wisdom to attack rolls ability could actually be very good.
Just something to think about. I'll stop my backseat driving now.
- Torger
|
|
Thanks for the insight on Sensei, Torger. I might have been too hasty when first reviewing the option.
@Major Blackhart - Nice find! Added Courageous to the equipment section. I'm hoping to add some strategy in later on, perhaps by next week.
Edit: I'd originally been working under the assumption that Inspire Courage was all morale bonuses. Man, what a huge oversight.
@Espy Kismet - With the above realization this does make Cockatrice slightly better. I'm not too keen on the setup required for Dazzling Display, but it opens up some nice feat avenues.
Edit: I'd originally been working under the assumption that Inspire Courage was all morale bonuses. Man, what a huge oversight.
I thought that for the longest time as well. I mean it makes sense right. Alas it is not.
- Torger
I stumbled across another way to get inspire courage
This monk archetype for humans
It's a terrible option. It doesn't even kick in till level seven and I'm not even sure if it counts since it runs directly off the Ki pool but there it is.
- Torger
You won’t get all of your Monk bonuses when wearing armor or wielding a longspear
To my knowledge the only thing monks can't do when usign a non monk weapon is flurry and sensei's loose flurry so I'm not sure what you're getting at with the longspear.
- Torger
|
|
I stumbled across another way to get inspire courage
This monk archetype for humans
It's a terrible option. It doesn't even kick in till level seven and I'm not even sure if it counts since it runs directly off the Ki pool but there it is.
- Torger
Yuck. Yea, I'm gonna leave that one out. It might get you in the class but you wouldn't be able to use ki points for your Inspiring Command. And it only targets one person.
You won’t get all of your Monk bonuses when wearing armor or wielding a longspearTo my knowledge the only thing monks can't do when usign a non monk weapon is flurry and sensei's loose flurry so I'm not sure what you're getting at with the longspear.
- Torger
Huh, I was thinking it did more but I just doublechecked and you are correct. So really there isn't a drawback in the weapons department.
Yuck. Yea, I'm gonna leave that one out. It might get you in the class but you wouldn't be able to use ki points for your Inspiring Command. And it only targets one person.
Wow I actually missed the one target part. Who'd have thought there'd be a worse way to go than Pathfinder Chronicler.
It's a turd of an option for sure just figured I'd give you the heads up.
Huh, I was thinking it did more but I just doublechecked and you are correct. So really there isn't a drawback in the weapons department.
Actually now that I think about it there is. At second level Sensei's get an ability to use Wisdom on attack rolls with monk weapons. Obviously how much this matters depends on how you've arranged your stats and is moot if you only plan on taking one level of Sensei. Still there it is.
- Torger
|
|
With regards to the Arcane Duelist, does that Bladethirst ability count as a Bardic Performance or is it just something different?
It is indeed a type of performance. The enhancement bonus lasts as long as you spend rounds to maintain it, just like Inspire Courage.
Because it's not gained until level 6 of Bard you wouldn't really get the chance to use it with Battle Herald unless you left the class early or went back into Bard in a high-level game.
Nifty chart you've added.
Couple things,
My understanding of Bardic Performance is that the range of the effect is sight or sound depending on weather it's an audio or visual performance. So it seems to me that if a battle herald is activating inspire courage as a bardic performance that the range would be as far as sound carries.
I believe you've listed sound the charge as sound the alarm.
Reactionary should be listed in the traits. Anything to get your buffs off at the start of the fight right?
- Torger
|
|
I doublechecked the wording. Each individual performance lists it's range in it's description, with all of them (Competence, Greatness, Heroics, etc) having a range of 30 ft. except for Fascinate (which is 90 ft.) and Inspire Courage. For some reason Inspire Courage really is just "an ally must be able to perceive the bard's performance". How strange that it's the only one that gets that bonus. I mean I won't argue, because that makes the ability really friggin good.
And since a Battle Herald can use Inspire Courage as one of his Inspiring Commands, I think that means allies get to add the Voice of Authority bonus on Perception checks to hear it, which can help reduce distance penalties and potentially make it really, really long range.
I doublechecked the wording. Each individual performance lists it's range in it's description, with all of them (Competence, Greatness, Heroics, etc) having a range of 30 ft. except for Fascinate (which is 90 ft.) and Inspire Courage. For some reason Inspire Courage really is just "an ally must be able to perceive the bard's performance". How strange that it's the only one that gets that bonus. I mean I won't argue, because that makes the ability really friggin good.
And since a Battle Herald can use Inspire Courage as one of his Inspiring Commands, I think that means allies get to add the Voice of Authority bonus on Perception checks to hear it, which can help reduce distance penalties and potentially make it really, really long range.
Huh, I had no idea there was a range on inspire greatness. Good to know.
- Torger
I'm left wondering if Eldritch Heritage would be a good feat chain for this character.
Is he charisma dependent? Partially I think, for spells.
Beyond that? Not sure.
Still, he could benefit from some of the more martial sorcerous bloodlines with regards to Eldritch Heritage.
Good call, any of the bloodlines that gives an inherent bonus to a stat would be excellent. (though hard to say if it's worth three feats).
Any other ideas?
- Torger
*edit* draconic would also be quite good. The skill focus is on perception. Who doesn't like perception bonuses? Free action claws are great on a primarily reach character. No martial class ever said no to natural armor and energy resistance. A breath Weapon couldn't hurt, not a lot of other ways for you to get AoE damage and wings are always super fun.*/edit*
*edit* draconic would also be quite good. The skill focus is on perception. Who doesn't like perception bonuses? Free action claws are great on a primarily reach character. No martial class ever said no to natural armor and energy resistance. A breath Weapon couldn't hurt, not a lot of other ways for you to get AoE damage and wings are always super fun.*/edit*
Which reminds me, Dragon Disciple would be an excellent way for bard battle heralds to finish out their level 16-20
- 4 points of untyped strength bonus
- Some natural armor
- Some energy resistance
- 3 level of spell advancement
- 30 feat of blindsense
- a bonus feat
- free action claws
- a bite with your claws
- a crappy breath weapon
- D12 HD
- Oh yeah and 4 POINTS OF UNTYPED STRENTH BONUS!!!
Only real downside I see is that you'll have to spread your already thin skill points to cover five ranks of knowledge arcana and possibly spend a point on linguistics to pick up draconic.
Back on the topic of other bloodlines that might be good.
Boreal and Stormborn give you a decent weapon enhancement and some other fun abilities, their skill focus skills aren't particularly exciting though.
- Torger
By the time you need to pay the buy in, skills become largely superfluous. I would not worry too much about it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've built a Battle Herald once. It was... interesting. I went for:
Standard Bearer Cavalier 1/Bard 1/Oracle of Lore 1/Paladin 2/Battle Herald X.
Instead of trying to squeeze some value out of the Cavlier/Bard class features, I opted for a "Charisma matters" build. Ideally, you'll start with at least 20 Charisma (18+2 racial) for this to be particularly potent. Strength is also important, but secondary. (Angel-Blooded Aasimar, anyone?) Oh and you can dump dexterity to hell. Here's some of the notable stuff:
Class Features:
Sidestep Secret: Add Charisma to Reflex saves and AC instead of Dex.
Divine Grace: Add Charisma to all saves.
Smite Evil: Add Charisma to your Attack rolls and +2 to damage when smiting.
Lay on Hands: 1+Charisma uses per day. (Heals for d6; unimpressive, but useful for another feat...)
Feats:
Noble Scion: Add Charisma to your Initiative instead of Dex
Radiant Charge: Expend all of your Lay on Hands to deal an extra (Charisma+1)d6+Charisma damage on one attack. (If Charisma is +8, you deal an extra 9d6+8 holy damage. Isn't reduced by anything.) The nice thing about this feat is that it doesn't care whether your lay on hands heal 1d6 or 5d6; it deals the same amount of damage. Since your a multi-class'd paladin and lay on hands would only heal 1d6, there isn't much opportunity cost in using this feat as your ace in the hole.
Leadership: Well, your Charisma should be really high? And Battle Herald improves your score as well. Take the Natural Born Leader trait for additional optimizing.
...
And a few other details, but that's most of it. With that as the core, you could make a good Battle Herald, I think!
|
|
All interesting suggestions, folks. I'll add Dragon Disciple to the Afterwards section and perhaps some other multiclassing options. Usually I don't like to multiclass that much but I can see where Paladin would be a strong dip on any high Charisma build. Definitely adding them feats and looking add Eldritch Heritage options. I'll do a larger update this weekend as well.
|
|
I think, because the Battle Herald is a melee combatant traditionally, though he could be great at range in a pinch, we should also discuss what weapons would work well with this class.
Actually, I think two-handed shaft weapons with reach might be the best, from spears and totem spears, to glaives and such. The reason is that you could be counted as holding the banner for feats and abilities that require it be held in at least one hand.
My thoughts exactly, Major. That's something I'd intended to add a while ago but hadn't gotten to it yet. I foresee the primary weapon of the class being a pole arm of some kind, primary longspears and lances that can be used with banners and flags.
Since all the attack bonuses you can grant work just as well on ranged attacks I can see a ranged Herald (or Herald buffing ranged allies) working fine except for the flags that require being held instead of just visible.
As for Eldritch Heritage, I can see a lot of those options working well except for the need of having Skill Focus and general feat investment.
Abyssal and Draconic are both really strong options with their respective energy resistance and either bonus Strength or Flight. Even better if you do go into Dragon Disciple.
I like the 1st level power from Destined. The insight bonus gets huge and stacks with your other bonuses. Once your performances become Move/Swift actions you could really boost someone to silly levels on your turn.
Aberrant has the nice reach and critical resistance but that's a lot of feats and you'll already be using reach weapons and armor that could have Fortification. The acid ray is kinda useless.
I really like the 3rd level power of the Imperious Sorcerer which increases moral and competence bonuses you receive, but it takes two dead feats to get to it. That might be better for someone else in the party to have.
I've built a Battle Herald once. It was... interesting. I went for:
Standard Bearer Cavalier 1/Bard 1/Oracle of Lore 1/Paladin 2/Battle Herald X.
My math has your level 5 BaB at +3. Battle Herald requires +4
- Torger
As for Eldritch Heritage, I can see a lot of those options working well except for the need of having Skill Focus and general feat investment.
Indeed. I think I could only recommend eldritch heritage If your race is Human or Half-Elf. Otherwise you just don't have the feats.
- Torger
I've built a Battle Herald once. It was... interesting. I went for:
Standard Bearer Cavalier 1/Bard 1/Oracle of Lore 1/Paladin 2/Battle Herald X.
My math has your level 5 BaB at +3. Battle Herald requires +4
- Torger
Gah! You are right. My GM lets me stack BAB fractions, so my build wouldn't be legal as is.
Gah! You are right. My GM lets me stack BAB fractions, so my build wouldn't be legal as is.I've built a Battle Herald once. It was... interesting. I went for:
Standard Bearer Cavalier 1/Bard 1/Oracle of Lore 1/Paladin 2/Battle Herald X.
My math has your level 5 BaB at +3. Battle Herald requires +4
- Torger
Yeah we do fractional BaB in a lot of our games as well. Easy to forget it's a houserule sometimes.
- Torger
Battle Magic only applies to concentration and caster level checks, not caster level. It won't increase caster level dependent variables of a spell.
Caster level checks occur when you cast a spell on a target with SR and some other minor instances.
I was just thinking about making a Battle Herald, so thank you for making a guide about it. My ideas were pretty much all covered, but I wasn't sure what to do after the 10 Battle Herald levels, so thank you for giving me the idea with Dragon Disciple. I feel that works very well with a Half Orc with the Beast Rider feat to get himself a Pterodactyl.